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There are so many serious problems with this entry that I am astonished that there have been no contributions to this talk page. Meowy 21:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Some examples of the Turkish propaganda removed: "Armenian nationalism has its roots in the romantic nationalism of Mikayel Chamchian". In other words, Armenians had no concept of nationhood before the 19th century! Fits pretty well with the cruder side of Turkish propaganda (the sort for domestic consumption) in which it is claimed Armenians never had a state of their own and were always ruled by others. My addition of "in the modern period" removes that deception. "Armenian nationalism is characterized by irredentism". "Irredentism" requires there to be a state or country to do the annexing - since there was no Armenian state (and there is no Kurdish state) the use of the phrase is simply not valid. I guess the propagandist mentioned "Kurdistan" to try to kill two birds with one stone! The propagandist also does not seem to know that Khrimian's "ladle" analogy was made after the Berlin congress - the removed text wants to make out it was made before or during it. The rest of the removed text follows a similar vein. Proper material for this entry would include, as I had said, material such as contribution of named Armenian writers, poets, politicians, etc, the emergence of Armenian political movements and parties, religious factors, influences of Western political thought and 19th century revolutions, etc. Meowy 02:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The Armenian national movement is in fact a subtopic of this article. I don't see a problem. I fail to see you present any sort of case other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. dab (𒁳) 14:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
(UTC)
I removed the first paragraph (even if it was sourced I would do so) because it implied that Armenian nationalists claim territories from Tigran's empire. Which is hogwash. I've never seen even the most uber hardcore nationalists do that. Territories that are usually claimed are Greater Armenia, Little Armenia (including Sophene) and sometimes Commagene and Cilicia. - Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 16:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
If you look back at the earliest version of this entry, that paragraph is essentially the same, and is without a source. That is why I was so surprised that there had been no content in this talk page, given that so much of the article's content was controversial and unsupported. Meowy 16:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
there is no pre-modern Armenian nationalism. You still fail to point out just what is problematic about the text. -- dab (𒁳) 16:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to be a fully POV material with a lot of unsourced materials. Id like to mark some more importants:
feel free to add links to Armenian nationalist websites - they would be fully on topic here. Regarding "ancient origins" and Kavoukjian, I do suggest you familiarize yourself with the topic a little bit before campaigning about it. Of course the Armenian genocide is widely recognized, that doesn't change the fact that Turkey's denial (unjustified as it is) is functioning as a point of focus for Armenian nationalism. The article isn't taking any stance on whether nationalists are "right" (except in cases of claims on ancient history, which need to stand against academic consensus). dab (𒁳) 10:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
um, on what grounds would we "decide on an almost complete removal of most of the existing content"? Please, people, "A fully POV"? If we are going to discuss Armenian nationalism, can we at least do it in a half educated and half literate manner? -- dab (𒁳) 07:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
No, Meowy, pls at first read the starting of the topic. Its me who is discussing the content, and after a while Ill made also some changes. so pls before the deletion of the tags discuss my points here and try to add sources if they exist. Andranikpasha ( talk) 14:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Meowy, i think this part is an unrelevant info and better if we delete it: "Armenian nationalism has notably been opposed to Turkish nationalism, especially over the Turkish refusal to recognize the Armenian genocide. The Armenian diaspora derives much of its unity from campaigns against this denial." If a source on it really exists (I think this quote is rather an unrealistic POV) we can discuss it but anyways I asked many times - how a refusal to recognize the genocide by Turkey is become an important point for nationalists. I dont think if we can find even one true Armenian nationalist who cares about this. Andranikpasha 18:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes Meowy, Im agree with you and its why I putted the POV tag. We should describe more carefully what means "Armenian nationalism" and how its related to "public and collective expression of Armenian ethnicity", to not merge "opposition to Genocide/Holocaust etc crimes denial" with "nationalism" which is a separate movement and sometimes even itself denies such facts especially happened in a different country. Andranikpasha 19:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
How national liberation movement is not nationalism? What is next national liberation was a terrorist organization? Besides it is cited information. -- Anglepush ( talk) 19:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Anglepush, pls calm down! Im not had to prove anything but the user who make new dubious addings. national liberation (a movement against national oppression) is not the same as nationalism (if they're the same then we sould merge two articles). if you have any sources asking that they are the same we can put it there. otherways its better to not make original interpretations and use your info at Armenian national liberation movement. Andranikpasha ( talk) 19:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, you're asking that Armenian national liberation movement is an element of nationalism. Any sources, or it is your opinion? Surely it is not obvious. the source you represented is called Looking Toward Ararat, I see nothing related to nationalism. Does Suny mark a connection with Armenian nationalism? If no, then lets stop add this quote. and about some other your addings: "World War One"- the text is not connected only to WWI its not a correct name! the same thing is with "21th century". the text there is rather related to 1980-90's. Andranikpasha ( talk) 20:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Anglepush, I know who is Suny and what he says. I dont need original explanations of his books. My question is: Does Suny mark a connection between Armenian national liberation movement and Armenian nationalism? Can you represent a quote asking that according to Suny "Armenian national liberation movement is an element of nationalism"? yes or not? otherways according to such a logics why to not include here also the Armenian National Chamber Orchestra (also National-Nationalism), Armenian National Anthem, Armenian national dances, Armenian National Library, etc etc? Andranikpasha ( talk) 20:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Meowy, as you see after I deleted the POV tag we face up here even more problems than previously. Surely we need a description to understand what about this article and should we keep here everything related to Armenia from the Armenian revolts to historian Kavoukjian and anything else, or not. I cant find a description for "Armenian nationalism", so I'll be grateful if any other user including the authors (f.e. dab) represent any for discussion. otherwise it is a question if the topic is notable ... Andranikpasha ( talk) 21:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Im agree! Anyways if anyone can find a description which we can discusse and use will be fine! Especially as for the post-soviet nations the term of nationalism historically have more redical meaning and some prominent intellectuals became victims of Soviet regime under such an unexplained "qualification". Andranikpasha ( talk) 07:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I just think at first we need a description here. Nationalism can have different menings especially for the post-soviet countries where it is mixed with chauvinism. Andranikpasha ( talk) 16:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
This is in regard to the text being added that begins with... "The consept of Armenisation of Urartu-range of theories that Urartu was an ancient Armenian State, wholly or mainly inhabited by ethnic Armenians, who spoke on the Armenian language. Concepts of Urartu Armenian affiliation are published primarily in Armenia, most often in popular literature, and the global scientific community rejected as unscientific and unprofessional."
The text, while "sourced", is simply false. It is not only "Armenian" sources that link Urartu and Armenia, it is all of international historical scholarship! I'm reverting this addition another time. Serouj ( talk) 06:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Any source saying the truth is junk for you as I see... Source you call false is Diakonoff, Starostin, Schnierelman and others.. They are all junk and garbage because they dont satisfy your National ambitions... but you and the ones like you hurt more than anyone else prestige of Armenian and Wikipedia ofcourse... Because of falsificators,that not let objectiv wiev points exist in wiki, wiki is not serious source. And Armenian History image on sight of objectives is Art book... When two person discussing what was Ajax nationality. some ones joking "he was Armenian hahah" if you need arguement you will %100 find it in Armenian books... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liberatium ( talk • contribs) 06:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
well, the text as it stands isn't acceptable for inclusion, that much is clear. Whether it can be morphed into something acceptable would be a matter of revising it into something grammatical and verifiable. Currently, Urartu is not mentioned on this page. Clearly, the idea of "Proto-Armenian Urartu" is significant to Armenian nationalism, and the addition was trying to discuss that, unfortunately just in broken English and based on obscure Russian references, [1] but the topic itself would certainly merit discussion. Serouj, perhaps you can help turning the addition into proper format. -- dab (𒁳) 18:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
It is true that Armenian ethnogenesis is likely rooted in the late Urartian period. That's it. Proto-Armenain probably didn't evolve until centuries later. However, this is the Armenian nationalism article. Nationalism is about sentiment and ideology, not about history or truth. Regardless of what happened in 7th to 6th century BCE Urartu, this article should discuss the significance of Urartu in 19th to 20th century Armenain nationalism. -- dab (𒁳) 07:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
well, this would be a matter of WP:RS. Cite an academic source that makes the claims you are putting up here. A 9th century BC king called Aramu has nothing whatsoever to do with the Armenians. Note that Armenians is an exonym, the Armenian endonym being Hayer. Please stop suggesting that we use 8th century historiography at face value and start citing real academic literature. -- dab (𒁳) 14:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
In most of the planet, Nationalism is not a dirty word -- although its excesses are. The problem here is that we have an English language medium dominated by Americans and by the British along with their Commonwealth descendants who view nationalism, particularly those forms that are locked in a hostile relationship (for whatever reason) with one of their allies, as a problem. The truth of the matter is that the US, the UK, Australia etc., are some of the biggest practitioners of ideologies of exclusion -- whether cultural or racial. English-speaking citizens of countries that are broadly part of the West should be aware that their own POV is utterly unacceptable to Armenians, Kurds, Russians, Indians, Arabs and others who have been victims of their own imperialism or that of their allies. In other words, butt-out please, if you are an American, you have no ground by which you can come here and do a supposedly "neutral" edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.203.97 ( talk) 00:21, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
"Armenian Genocide carried out by Ottoman Turks and Kurds in April 1915..."
The usage of the term 'Kurds' in this context implies a collective Kurdish participation in the genocide, as opposed to the widely accepted view which considers only separate, isolated segments of the ethnic Kurdish population comprised of bandits and released criminals to have been involved. Apart from it being incorrect and way off the mark for an encyclopedia, the deceitful usage of this term is insulting to say the least. Therefore I have removed it from the page and replaced it with "Kurdish bandits and released criminals" instead.
Frankly, the purpose of the term's usage in this manner is unclear to me. I demand an explanation from the user accountable for the placement of that term as to what his/her intentions were. 82.171.125.22 ( talk) 19:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.171.125.22 ( talk) 19:12, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
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There are so many serious problems with this entry that I am astonished that there have been no contributions to this talk page. Meowy 21:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Some examples of the Turkish propaganda removed: "Armenian nationalism has its roots in the romantic nationalism of Mikayel Chamchian". In other words, Armenians had no concept of nationhood before the 19th century! Fits pretty well with the cruder side of Turkish propaganda (the sort for domestic consumption) in which it is claimed Armenians never had a state of their own and were always ruled by others. My addition of "in the modern period" removes that deception. "Armenian nationalism is characterized by irredentism". "Irredentism" requires there to be a state or country to do the annexing - since there was no Armenian state (and there is no Kurdish state) the use of the phrase is simply not valid. I guess the propagandist mentioned "Kurdistan" to try to kill two birds with one stone! The propagandist also does not seem to know that Khrimian's "ladle" analogy was made after the Berlin congress - the removed text wants to make out it was made before or during it. The rest of the removed text follows a similar vein. Proper material for this entry would include, as I had said, material such as contribution of named Armenian writers, poets, politicians, etc, the emergence of Armenian political movements and parties, religious factors, influences of Western political thought and 19th century revolutions, etc. Meowy 02:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The Armenian national movement is in fact a subtopic of this article. I don't see a problem. I fail to see you present any sort of case other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. dab (𒁳) 14:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
(UTC)
I removed the first paragraph (even if it was sourced I would do so) because it implied that Armenian nationalists claim territories from Tigran's empire. Which is hogwash. I've never seen even the most uber hardcore nationalists do that. Territories that are usually claimed are Greater Armenia, Little Armenia (including Sophene) and sometimes Commagene and Cilicia. - Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 16:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
If you look back at the earliest version of this entry, that paragraph is essentially the same, and is without a source. That is why I was so surprised that there had been no content in this talk page, given that so much of the article's content was controversial and unsupported. Meowy 16:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
there is no pre-modern Armenian nationalism. You still fail to point out just what is problematic about the text. -- dab (𒁳) 16:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to be a fully POV material with a lot of unsourced materials. Id like to mark some more importants:
feel free to add links to Armenian nationalist websites - they would be fully on topic here. Regarding "ancient origins" and Kavoukjian, I do suggest you familiarize yourself with the topic a little bit before campaigning about it. Of course the Armenian genocide is widely recognized, that doesn't change the fact that Turkey's denial (unjustified as it is) is functioning as a point of focus for Armenian nationalism. The article isn't taking any stance on whether nationalists are "right" (except in cases of claims on ancient history, which need to stand against academic consensus). dab (𒁳) 10:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
um, on what grounds would we "decide on an almost complete removal of most of the existing content"? Please, people, "A fully POV"? If we are going to discuss Armenian nationalism, can we at least do it in a half educated and half literate manner? -- dab (𒁳) 07:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
No, Meowy, pls at first read the starting of the topic. Its me who is discussing the content, and after a while Ill made also some changes. so pls before the deletion of the tags discuss my points here and try to add sources if they exist. Andranikpasha ( talk) 14:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Meowy, i think this part is an unrelevant info and better if we delete it: "Armenian nationalism has notably been opposed to Turkish nationalism, especially over the Turkish refusal to recognize the Armenian genocide. The Armenian diaspora derives much of its unity from campaigns against this denial." If a source on it really exists (I think this quote is rather an unrealistic POV) we can discuss it but anyways I asked many times - how a refusal to recognize the genocide by Turkey is become an important point for nationalists. I dont think if we can find even one true Armenian nationalist who cares about this. Andranikpasha 18:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes Meowy, Im agree with you and its why I putted the POV tag. We should describe more carefully what means "Armenian nationalism" and how its related to "public and collective expression of Armenian ethnicity", to not merge "opposition to Genocide/Holocaust etc crimes denial" with "nationalism" which is a separate movement and sometimes even itself denies such facts especially happened in a different country. Andranikpasha 19:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
How national liberation movement is not nationalism? What is next national liberation was a terrorist organization? Besides it is cited information. -- Anglepush ( talk) 19:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Anglepush, pls calm down! Im not had to prove anything but the user who make new dubious addings. national liberation (a movement against national oppression) is not the same as nationalism (if they're the same then we sould merge two articles). if you have any sources asking that they are the same we can put it there. otherways its better to not make original interpretations and use your info at Armenian national liberation movement. Andranikpasha ( talk) 19:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, you're asking that Armenian national liberation movement is an element of nationalism. Any sources, or it is your opinion? Surely it is not obvious. the source you represented is called Looking Toward Ararat, I see nothing related to nationalism. Does Suny mark a connection with Armenian nationalism? If no, then lets stop add this quote. and about some other your addings: "World War One"- the text is not connected only to WWI its not a correct name! the same thing is with "21th century". the text there is rather related to 1980-90's. Andranikpasha ( talk) 20:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Anglepush, I know who is Suny and what he says. I dont need original explanations of his books. My question is: Does Suny mark a connection between Armenian national liberation movement and Armenian nationalism? Can you represent a quote asking that according to Suny "Armenian national liberation movement is an element of nationalism"? yes or not? otherways according to such a logics why to not include here also the Armenian National Chamber Orchestra (also National-Nationalism), Armenian National Anthem, Armenian national dances, Armenian National Library, etc etc? Andranikpasha ( talk) 20:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Meowy, as you see after I deleted the POV tag we face up here even more problems than previously. Surely we need a description to understand what about this article and should we keep here everything related to Armenia from the Armenian revolts to historian Kavoukjian and anything else, or not. I cant find a description for "Armenian nationalism", so I'll be grateful if any other user including the authors (f.e. dab) represent any for discussion. otherwise it is a question if the topic is notable ... Andranikpasha ( talk) 21:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Im agree! Anyways if anyone can find a description which we can discusse and use will be fine! Especially as for the post-soviet nations the term of nationalism historically have more redical meaning and some prominent intellectuals became victims of Soviet regime under such an unexplained "qualification". Andranikpasha ( talk) 07:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I just think at first we need a description here. Nationalism can have different menings especially for the post-soviet countries where it is mixed with chauvinism. Andranikpasha ( talk) 16:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
This is in regard to the text being added that begins with... "The consept of Armenisation of Urartu-range of theories that Urartu was an ancient Armenian State, wholly or mainly inhabited by ethnic Armenians, who spoke on the Armenian language. Concepts of Urartu Armenian affiliation are published primarily in Armenia, most often in popular literature, and the global scientific community rejected as unscientific and unprofessional."
The text, while "sourced", is simply false. It is not only "Armenian" sources that link Urartu and Armenia, it is all of international historical scholarship! I'm reverting this addition another time. Serouj ( talk) 06:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Any source saying the truth is junk for you as I see... Source you call false is Diakonoff, Starostin, Schnierelman and others.. They are all junk and garbage because they dont satisfy your National ambitions... but you and the ones like you hurt more than anyone else prestige of Armenian and Wikipedia ofcourse... Because of falsificators,that not let objectiv wiev points exist in wiki, wiki is not serious source. And Armenian History image on sight of objectives is Art book... When two person discussing what was Ajax nationality. some ones joking "he was Armenian hahah" if you need arguement you will %100 find it in Armenian books... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liberatium ( talk • contribs) 06:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
well, the text as it stands isn't acceptable for inclusion, that much is clear. Whether it can be morphed into something acceptable would be a matter of revising it into something grammatical and verifiable. Currently, Urartu is not mentioned on this page. Clearly, the idea of "Proto-Armenian Urartu" is significant to Armenian nationalism, and the addition was trying to discuss that, unfortunately just in broken English and based on obscure Russian references, [1] but the topic itself would certainly merit discussion. Serouj, perhaps you can help turning the addition into proper format. -- dab (𒁳) 18:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
It is true that Armenian ethnogenesis is likely rooted in the late Urartian period. That's it. Proto-Armenain probably didn't evolve until centuries later. However, this is the Armenian nationalism article. Nationalism is about sentiment and ideology, not about history or truth. Regardless of what happened in 7th to 6th century BCE Urartu, this article should discuss the significance of Urartu in 19th to 20th century Armenain nationalism. -- dab (𒁳) 07:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
well, this would be a matter of WP:RS. Cite an academic source that makes the claims you are putting up here. A 9th century BC king called Aramu has nothing whatsoever to do with the Armenians. Note that Armenians is an exonym, the Armenian endonym being Hayer. Please stop suggesting that we use 8th century historiography at face value and start citing real academic literature. -- dab (𒁳) 14:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
In most of the planet, Nationalism is not a dirty word -- although its excesses are. The problem here is that we have an English language medium dominated by Americans and by the British along with their Commonwealth descendants who view nationalism, particularly those forms that are locked in a hostile relationship (for whatever reason) with one of their allies, as a problem. The truth of the matter is that the US, the UK, Australia etc., are some of the biggest practitioners of ideologies of exclusion -- whether cultural or racial. English-speaking citizens of countries that are broadly part of the West should be aware that their own POV is utterly unacceptable to Armenians, Kurds, Russians, Indians, Arabs and others who have been victims of their own imperialism or that of their allies. In other words, butt-out please, if you are an American, you have no ground by which you can come here and do a supposedly "neutral" edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.203.97 ( talk) 00:21, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
"Armenian Genocide carried out by Ottoman Turks and Kurds in April 1915..."
The usage of the term 'Kurds' in this context implies a collective Kurdish participation in the genocide, as opposed to the widely accepted view which considers only separate, isolated segments of the ethnic Kurdish population comprised of bandits and released criminals to have been involved. Apart from it being incorrect and way off the mark for an encyclopedia, the deceitful usage of this term is insulting to say the least. Therefore I have removed it from the page and replaced it with "Kurdish bandits and released criminals" instead.
Frankly, the purpose of the term's usage in this manner is unclear to me. I demand an explanation from the user accountable for the placement of that term as to what his/her intentions were. 82.171.125.22 ( talk) 19:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.171.125.22 ( talk) 19:12, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
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