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Is there any evidence for the second Benedict XIV? The standard sources (The Oxford Dictionary of Popes, The Catholic Encyclopedia, the Liber Pontificalis) are silent about him, the source seems to be a novel, and, most importantly, it makes no sense for a successor to style himself identically to the person he is succeeding. There were two Pope Benedict XIVs, one a pope and one an antipope, but I'm not buying the story about Carrier... Ansat ( talk) 04:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
You will not find anything (anywhere) about any anti-pope named Benedict XVI. There isn't one.-- Djathink imacowboy 18:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
This diff here [4], look at that edit summary. Please, fellow editors! Extensive work on an article is not a 'takeover'. If I am in error in something specific please let me know. Come and discuss the work here, and please feel free to drop me a line if you prefer.-- Djathink imacowboy 03:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually I wonder if any of my very few sources state anything with regards to the subject. Mainly I have a brief book with the official list and biographies of the popes, no antipopes. Perhaps you have other historical references to check? I think my list has Sylvester III without any antipope mentioned, but then, which Sylvester III is it? I must find this listing and see. Sylvester III does not ring a bell with me as antipope at all, and I cannot recall seeing references to Sylvester III ever being an antipope. My area of great interest was always Pope Sylvester II. Fascinating man!-- Djathink imacowboy 19:44, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, Eso, this is what is there now:
Sylvester III, sometimes listed as an antipope, appears in the Holy See's Annuario Pontificio as a pope: because of obscurities about mid-11th-century canon law and the historical facts, it expresses no judgment on his legitimacy. The Catholic Encyclopedia places him in its List of Popes, [1] but with the annotation: "Considered by some to be an antipope". Some other sources do classify him as an antipope. [2] [3]
--but I like your idea. I'll leave it up to you, and let you place the Sylvester ref. as you wish to do. This is an interesting situation, finding the right way to express this. I still have had no time to consult my book and read if it mentions antipope Sylvester. Let me know what you think. I think it is close to what it should say, but I think you have a better idea in general.-- Djathink imacowboy 04:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
References
Esoglou, I hope you don't mind my starting a new section. The thread's getting too long. Your suggestion is very good. I will try to get to my library in the next day or two, see if I can find some new citation regarding Sylvester for the article. Perhaps we don't have it right, I'm not certain. Ciao, Esoglou.-- Djathink imacowboy 14:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
There it is Esoglou, with NO listing of Sylvester III at all anywhere else. From Lancioni, Enrico (1978). The History of the Popes, Manor Books, pps. 115-116. How do we insert all that? As a block quote just as I have it, or do we re-word it and insert a cleaner form? I can do either way, what is your advice?-- Djathink imacowboy 14:35, 8 February 2012 (UTC)Benedict IX, circa 1032-1044: At the death of John XIX... [his nephew] Theophylactus was elected. [He] took the name Benedict IX.... Benedict was one of the most disreputable popes.... [His reign] was one of complete turmoil. In 1036 the Romans rose against him and drove him from the city... Benedict returned to Rome, only to be driven out again in 1044. John, Bishop of Sabina, was set up as Pope Sylvester III... within two months... Benedict... sent Sylvester back to his diocese in Sabina, and restored himself as pope. [I]n 1045 he abdicated, and handed the papacy to... John Gratian. [Later] Benedict returned, clamoring to be pope [again]... Emperor Henry III came to Rome to settle the matter. He held a council which disposed [of] Sylvester and Benedict. He installed his own man... as Clement II. Benedict... made one comeback. After the death of [Pope Clement II], he returned... and took control.... until 1048. Henry III insisted on his removal.... John Gratian was chosen to succeed Benedict and took the name Gregory VI.
I think I was in error stating Sylvester was an antipope. I realised this after I had posted everything else, because we don't seem to have a record of how Sylvester got the papacy. Presumably, it was legitimate. If the Church says or implies it was legitimate, then why are we even discussing whether he was an antipope?
My quote above shows only what Lancioni published. So we are not 'deciding' anything except the best way to list these men in the article if applicable. See, this is why we discuss what we think here on the talk page. We don't put it into the article.
Myself, I tend to see Sylvester III as legitimate- but my source doesn't say how he came to be elected because he says Sylvester was 'set up' as pope. How does one 'set up' a pope? What does it mean? I think it means Sylvester is legitimate.
In fact I wonder whether it was Benedict IX who was an antipope, part-time, at least. History tells that he returned to Rome, but did he usurp the papacy? No one says yes, but no one says no. Was he hated? Yes he was. Was he an antipope? I don't see how, but then how is he excused if he did simply come back and take the papacy through force? He deposed Sylvester originally. Doesn't that make Benedict an antipope for part of his career?
All this is what we need to discover; this is why we discuss it here.
But yes, in your post your facts are clear and accurate. So, as I suggested all along, how do we simplify and explain this with clarity?-- Djathink imacowboy 16:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Have Antipopes only ever happened in the Roman Catholic Church? The head of the Coptic Orthodox Church is also a Pope, and I'm wondering if there has ever been an Antipope to that other denomination. (I suppose we could use the term for any kind of Anti-Patriarch in Eastern Orthodoxy or some other Apostolic sect, but for now, as I only know of one denomination other than Roman Catholic that uses the word "Pope" for its head, I'm asking if there have been any Antipopes there.)
Anyway, have there been any Coptic Orthodox Antipopes? If so, the Article should at least have a section on them. The Mysterious El Willstro ( talk) 02:00, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned that any attempt to broaden the scope of this article may run into a serious definition problem. A number of protestant denominations consider all popes after the great schism to be, in effect, antipopes. So we run into the problem then of having all regular popes also being antipopes and the whole thing becomes a complete mess from there.-- ||bass ( talk) 02:28, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
The entry "Mirko Fabris Krav" under modern antipopes is someone's idea of a joke. First of all, Croats wouldn't elect an antipope because they are too loyal to the Pope. Second, you can simply Google "Mirko Fabris Krav" and you'll see that he is a stand-up comedian. I'll try to erase this. If it re-appears, please erase it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.141.0.139 ( talk) 22:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Antipope Kaplan I has got to be a joke, doesn't he? I see nothing on the web about him, and the information seems to be copied from the prior antipope. I am not going to spend time fixing it, but someone should look at it. )Just looking, not a frequent Wikipedia editor. 38.100.154.254 ( talk) 02:04, 12 February 2013 (UTC
It is difficult to argue that Constantine II was in opposition to Stephen III, as Stephen was elected more than a year after Constantine and had to wait a week until Constantine was dethroned before being consecrated himself. It might be more accurate to say Constantine was in opposition to Christophorus's belief that there was a sede vacante -- Rumping ( talk) 22:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I am a bit confused about the article. In the history division I see a lot of talk about some (as if) clerics sticking with the pope or antipope in the 3rd century but to my knowledge the Roman Empire was not officially a Christian state before the 4th century and it is impossible to have popes as well as antipopes already in the 3rd century. But maybe I misunderstand something. So if I do, please explain. 77.180.65.49 ( talk) 06:47, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Antiope. And/or vice versa. I didn't actually read the name of the asteroid as "Antipope" myself, but it could happen...? Oh, wait, there's an Antipop as well. Having opened the can of worms, I shall now depart... 79.73.148.17 ( talk) 04:48, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
The term "secular" in the second paragraph is suspicious, as monarchs who interfere with religion and install their own religious officials are not simply "secular," which is a modern term misapplied to ancient times, sometimes they are just political and anti-religious. - Inowen ( talk) 05:20, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
I know the "In Popular Culture" section is always a useless and embarrassing waste of space and everybody knows it, but you have to have one to keep the borderline autistics who seem to write most of your "encyclopedia" happy. However, since it needs to exist for that reason, and since you consider any passing mention or implied mention of antipopes in sitcoms, Japanese cartoons, computer games, etc. etc. etc. to be important enough to list in aspergic detail, shouldn't you perhaps include a few words to the effect that in 1981 the best-selling author Robert Rankin published a comic fantasy novel about an antipope called "The Antipope"? Just saying. 86.141.29.229 ( talk) 16:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
At the end of the history section, someone has listed the last several Popes as antipopes. 96.242.166.142 ( talk) 14:24, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Please place new discussions at the bottom of the talk page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Antipope article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Is there any evidence for the second Benedict XIV? The standard sources (The Oxford Dictionary of Popes, The Catholic Encyclopedia, the Liber Pontificalis) are silent about him, the source seems to be a novel, and, most importantly, it makes no sense for a successor to style himself identically to the person he is succeeding. There were two Pope Benedict XIVs, one a pope and one an antipope, but I'm not buying the story about Carrier... Ansat ( talk) 04:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
You will not find anything (anywhere) about any anti-pope named Benedict XVI. There isn't one.-- Djathink imacowboy 18:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
This diff here [4], look at that edit summary. Please, fellow editors! Extensive work on an article is not a 'takeover'. If I am in error in something specific please let me know. Come and discuss the work here, and please feel free to drop me a line if you prefer.-- Djathink imacowboy 03:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually I wonder if any of my very few sources state anything with regards to the subject. Mainly I have a brief book with the official list and biographies of the popes, no antipopes. Perhaps you have other historical references to check? I think my list has Sylvester III without any antipope mentioned, but then, which Sylvester III is it? I must find this listing and see. Sylvester III does not ring a bell with me as antipope at all, and I cannot recall seeing references to Sylvester III ever being an antipope. My area of great interest was always Pope Sylvester II. Fascinating man!-- Djathink imacowboy 19:44, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, Eso, this is what is there now:
Sylvester III, sometimes listed as an antipope, appears in the Holy See's Annuario Pontificio as a pope: because of obscurities about mid-11th-century canon law and the historical facts, it expresses no judgment on his legitimacy. The Catholic Encyclopedia places him in its List of Popes, [1] but with the annotation: "Considered by some to be an antipope". Some other sources do classify him as an antipope. [2] [3]
--but I like your idea. I'll leave it up to you, and let you place the Sylvester ref. as you wish to do. This is an interesting situation, finding the right way to express this. I still have had no time to consult my book and read if it mentions antipope Sylvester. Let me know what you think. I think it is close to what it should say, but I think you have a better idea in general.-- Djathink imacowboy 04:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
References
Esoglou, I hope you don't mind my starting a new section. The thread's getting too long. Your suggestion is very good. I will try to get to my library in the next day or two, see if I can find some new citation regarding Sylvester for the article. Perhaps we don't have it right, I'm not certain. Ciao, Esoglou.-- Djathink imacowboy 14:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
There it is Esoglou, with NO listing of Sylvester III at all anywhere else. From Lancioni, Enrico (1978). The History of the Popes, Manor Books, pps. 115-116. How do we insert all that? As a block quote just as I have it, or do we re-word it and insert a cleaner form? I can do either way, what is your advice?-- Djathink imacowboy 14:35, 8 February 2012 (UTC)Benedict IX, circa 1032-1044: At the death of John XIX... [his nephew] Theophylactus was elected. [He] took the name Benedict IX.... Benedict was one of the most disreputable popes.... [His reign] was one of complete turmoil. In 1036 the Romans rose against him and drove him from the city... Benedict returned to Rome, only to be driven out again in 1044. John, Bishop of Sabina, was set up as Pope Sylvester III... within two months... Benedict... sent Sylvester back to his diocese in Sabina, and restored himself as pope. [I]n 1045 he abdicated, and handed the papacy to... John Gratian. [Later] Benedict returned, clamoring to be pope [again]... Emperor Henry III came to Rome to settle the matter. He held a council which disposed [of] Sylvester and Benedict. He installed his own man... as Clement II. Benedict... made one comeback. After the death of [Pope Clement II], he returned... and took control.... until 1048. Henry III insisted on his removal.... John Gratian was chosen to succeed Benedict and took the name Gregory VI.
I think I was in error stating Sylvester was an antipope. I realised this after I had posted everything else, because we don't seem to have a record of how Sylvester got the papacy. Presumably, it was legitimate. If the Church says or implies it was legitimate, then why are we even discussing whether he was an antipope?
My quote above shows only what Lancioni published. So we are not 'deciding' anything except the best way to list these men in the article if applicable. See, this is why we discuss what we think here on the talk page. We don't put it into the article.
Myself, I tend to see Sylvester III as legitimate- but my source doesn't say how he came to be elected because he says Sylvester was 'set up' as pope. How does one 'set up' a pope? What does it mean? I think it means Sylvester is legitimate.
In fact I wonder whether it was Benedict IX who was an antipope, part-time, at least. History tells that he returned to Rome, but did he usurp the papacy? No one says yes, but no one says no. Was he hated? Yes he was. Was he an antipope? I don't see how, but then how is he excused if he did simply come back and take the papacy through force? He deposed Sylvester originally. Doesn't that make Benedict an antipope for part of his career?
All this is what we need to discover; this is why we discuss it here.
But yes, in your post your facts are clear and accurate. So, as I suggested all along, how do we simplify and explain this with clarity?-- Djathink imacowboy 16:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Have Antipopes only ever happened in the Roman Catholic Church? The head of the Coptic Orthodox Church is also a Pope, and I'm wondering if there has ever been an Antipope to that other denomination. (I suppose we could use the term for any kind of Anti-Patriarch in Eastern Orthodoxy or some other Apostolic sect, but for now, as I only know of one denomination other than Roman Catholic that uses the word "Pope" for its head, I'm asking if there have been any Antipopes there.)
Anyway, have there been any Coptic Orthodox Antipopes? If so, the Article should at least have a section on them. The Mysterious El Willstro ( talk) 02:00, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned that any attempt to broaden the scope of this article may run into a serious definition problem. A number of protestant denominations consider all popes after the great schism to be, in effect, antipopes. So we run into the problem then of having all regular popes also being antipopes and the whole thing becomes a complete mess from there.-- ||bass ( talk) 02:28, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
The entry "Mirko Fabris Krav" under modern antipopes is someone's idea of a joke. First of all, Croats wouldn't elect an antipope because they are too loyal to the Pope. Second, you can simply Google "Mirko Fabris Krav" and you'll see that he is a stand-up comedian. I'll try to erase this. If it re-appears, please erase it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.141.0.139 ( talk) 22:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Antipope Kaplan I has got to be a joke, doesn't he? I see nothing on the web about him, and the information seems to be copied from the prior antipope. I am not going to spend time fixing it, but someone should look at it. )Just looking, not a frequent Wikipedia editor. 38.100.154.254 ( talk) 02:04, 12 February 2013 (UTC
It is difficult to argue that Constantine II was in opposition to Stephen III, as Stephen was elected more than a year after Constantine and had to wait a week until Constantine was dethroned before being consecrated himself. It might be more accurate to say Constantine was in opposition to Christophorus's belief that there was a sede vacante -- Rumping ( talk) 22:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I am a bit confused about the article. In the history division I see a lot of talk about some (as if) clerics sticking with the pope or antipope in the 3rd century but to my knowledge the Roman Empire was not officially a Christian state before the 4th century and it is impossible to have popes as well as antipopes already in the 3rd century. But maybe I misunderstand something. So if I do, please explain. 77.180.65.49 ( talk) 06:47, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Antiope. And/or vice versa. I didn't actually read the name of the asteroid as "Antipope" myself, but it could happen...? Oh, wait, there's an Antipop as well. Having opened the can of worms, I shall now depart... 79.73.148.17 ( talk) 04:48, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
The term "secular" in the second paragraph is suspicious, as monarchs who interfere with religion and install their own religious officials are not simply "secular," which is a modern term misapplied to ancient times, sometimes they are just political and anti-religious. - Inowen ( talk) 05:20, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
I know the "In Popular Culture" section is always a useless and embarrassing waste of space and everybody knows it, but you have to have one to keep the borderline autistics who seem to write most of your "encyclopedia" happy. However, since it needs to exist for that reason, and since you consider any passing mention or implied mention of antipopes in sitcoms, Japanese cartoons, computer games, etc. etc. etc. to be important enough to list in aspergic detail, shouldn't you perhaps include a few words to the effect that in 1981 the best-selling author Robert Rankin published a comic fantasy novel about an antipope called "The Antipope"? Just saying. 86.141.29.229 ( talk) 16:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
At the end of the history section, someone has listed the last several Popes as antipopes. 96.242.166.142 ( talk) 14:24, 16 January 2023 (UTC)