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Pardon me, I've been enjoying myself over at Protest Warrior lately so I apologize if this has been discussed. The following text has been inserted in the Plagiarism and Factual accuracy section.
“ | On page 134 of Coulter's book, Slander, Coulter claims that during Reagan's Iran-Contra scandal, Reagan's approval ratings fell five percent, from 80 to 75%. A Christian Science Monitor article is cited from January 7, 1987. In actuality, the article states, Reagan's approval ratings fell from 63 to 47%.
Coulter relies heavily on the LexisNexis search, a program designed to search various newspapers with the use of keywords or phrases. Many of Coulter's claims are that various "left leaning" newspapers did not cover one event or story due to a hidden agenda. However, Coulter's use of keywords and phrases when searching, give her incomplete results. Many of her claims have come to light as false, having the newspapers she claims not covering a certain story, indeed covering it. In Slander, Coulter alleges The New York Times did not cover NASCAR driver Dale Earnhardt's death until two days after he died: "The day after seven-time NASCAR Winston Cup champion Dale Earnhardt died in a race at the Daytona 500, almost every newspaper in America carried the story on the front page. Stock-car racing had been the nation's fastest-growing sport for a decade, and NASCAR the second-most-watched sport behind the NFL. More Americans recognize the name Dale Earnhardt than, say, Maureen Dowd. (Manhattan liberals are dumbly blinking at that last sentence.) It took The New York Times two days to deem Earnhardt's death sufficiently important to mention it on the first page. Demonstrating the left's renowned populist touch, the article began, 'His death brought a silence to the Wal-Mart.' The Times went on to report that in vast swaths of the country people watch stock-car racing. Tacky people were mourning Dale Earnhardt all over the South!" The The New York Times did cover Earnhart's death and covered it on the front page. Earnhardt died on February 18, 2001. Another article appeared in the Times on the front page, on February 19, 2001, one day later, after their intial front-page story, written by sportswriter Robert Lipsyte, making it two days in a row the The New York Times covered Earnhardt's death. Coulter cites an article indeed written two days later, by Rick Bragg, a Pulitzer Prize winner who grew up in the South, who wrote a personal piece on Earnhardt and his passing, bringing the total to three times in which the Times covered Earnhardt, three days in a row. |
” |
Several points seem to be specifically unsupported original research and the rest of it (which may be original research as well) is of questionable notability. It seems like an attempt to list occasions when Coulter was/appears to be inaccurate. This section, IMHO, should not be used to allow any editor to subjectively choose and list those instances. The examples chosen for inclusion, IMHO, should at least have been notable enough to have been written about in some reliable sources. Ohpeenyons? Lawyer2b 18:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR states that original research, "includes unpublished material, for example, arguments, concepts, data, ideas, statements, or theories, or any new analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. (emphasis mine) With no external sources saying, "Here Coulter said X. And here is Y, proving X is wrong," I don't see how the above material can possibly be anything other than original research. I'm taking it out. Lawyer2b 23:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The material attempting to explain why Coulter is inaccurate appears to be original research. (Me, I think she's just making shit up instead of using L/N poorly.) But the material about her inaccuracies such as the NYT Earnhart article should remain. Gamaliel 14:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, as the person who originally pointed out what appeared to be original research, it now appears that the material is validly sourced. The only thing I think might improve it would be to write something more neutral introducing it like, "According to Al Franken's book Lying Liars, etc..." Lawyer2b 21:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been on wikibreak for some weeks until recently, so I'm just noticing some of the changes that have been made. The lead image is the most eye-catching one. I'm curious as to the reasoning for its replacement of the previous lead image; it's fairly grainy and not particularly recent, unless I'm mistaken. Kasreyn 08:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
How do I add the following image into the article? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/26/politics/main631949.shtml -Rako
I know that one or more administrators have expressed strong opinions that Ann Coulter lacks integrity (e.g. "makes shit up"). I respect that point of view, and I assume the good faith of all who hold it, and of all who work it into the Ann Coulter article. But do we really want this article to "speculate" that Ann has Marfan Syndrome? Is the cited reference, a blog that also says "She is, however, a pathetic excuse for a human being, and Adam Carolla of all people, bitch-slapped her," really the sort of "high quality reference" that WP:BLP refers to in saying "Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives?" And is it really a Minor edit to put this material into the Background, early life, and education section? I say NO to all three questions, but I don't want to step on any toes by reverting the edit. Lou Sander 04:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Issues about whether or not the disputed passage should be inserted for balance purposes is one thing, but how does Crooksandliars.com violate WP:RS? Regardless of the opinions stated on that site, they include videos of what they're talking about, which seems to me to be the very paradigm of WP:V. -- kizzle 17:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Not clear to me why calling someone a "Coulter fan" is not "civil", but since you seem to get defensive about it, I'll refrain from using that term. If you are sincere that you "see no reason why that video segment should not be included" please restore it, and we can debate the words around it. -- Asbl 19:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
There are tons of secondary sources who refer to the video see [1]. Her appearance was certainly notable and is being discussed all over. -- Asbl 20:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
You are making baseless accusation, bordering on slander. Nowhere have I violated 3RR, and you refuse to address the issue that there is nothing more verifyable than the video of Coulter moving her lips, which means that it is completely consistent with WP:RS. It seems that the Coulterites and their sock puppets have taken over this article. -- Asbl 17:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I have long wondered why editors so diligently seek and post negative material about Ann Coulter, but not about other controversial people, and why the negative material is so strongly enhanced and defended by those who post it. My eyes have recently been opened, however, and now I no longer wonder. Nevertheless, this IS a biography of a living person, and I believe we should refrain from posting such a huge amount of negative material, regardless of its being well- or poorly-sourced. Lou Sander 18:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the other big problem I see with 'crooksandliars.com' is their copyright infringement. I highly doubt that they have permission from Fox News and other media sources to be redistributing video excerpts that were clearly lifted from broadcast or cable TV. Dr. Cash 19:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As always, your doubt = your POV. -- Asbl 20:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop adding the youtube link as a 'reference' to this stuff! Youtube is a social networking site, pretty much anyone can post videos to the site. It is not a site containing reference material that has any type of editorial controls, and should not be used as a journalistic-quality reference to scholarly publications. Dr. Cash 17:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing the video and many sources, I've put several facts and links into this section of the main article, including specific details of Canadian troops' nineteen-year presence in Vietnam/Indochina. It is false to claim that Canada did not send troops there, particularly in light of Coulter's clarifying "Indochina?" (Please remember that during the time Canadian troops were there, French Indochina was in turmoil, borders were being established and moved, and so forth. The Canadian troops were there to deal with those things.) If you still doubt that Canada sent troops, it may help you to look HERE to see the medal that Canada awarded to them for their service. Lou Sander 10:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Book covers can be used under the "fair use" guidelines to illustrate the articles about the books themselves only. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
First off, I either hate Ann Coulter with all my heart or I think she's the greatest living American author, depending on whether you disagree with my suggestion here or not. I just wanted to get that out of the way, as I'm sure my personal motivations will be brought up. Now, to my actual suggestion: the plagiarism section as it stands is way too much. Not too much as in the material shouldn't exist somewhere, but on a biography page we really really shouldn't be devoting so much space to these claims. It's not that these claims do not meet WP:V or are not sourced properly, but do we need to take 8 paragraphs on her bio page? For the whole passage about Slander, I'm going to move it off to the Slander website. Book-specific charges should be placed on each book's individual article. What should remain, ideally, is a 1-2 paragraph section (like it was before) that is equivalent of what's left when a daughter article is split off and a summary para remains. Blah blah iAuthenticate, blah blah Coulter's publisher's defended her, blah blah something else, and that's it. If we really want to keep all this here, I think a daughter article is quite necessary at this point, but I would much rather place the book-specific info on each book's page, as it makes much more organizational sense. What do other people think? -- kizzle 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Would somebody who knows how please do it? Lou Sander 10:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the article Ann claimed Canada send troups into the Vietnam war, but that it commonly claimed that they didn't. User Lou Sander claims that this is a fallacy. According to the articles on the subject although there was combat between member of the Canadian army, and members of various Vientamese groups, there does not appear to have been any sending of troups into Vietnam or into the war. Canada's involvment appears to be purely peripheral, so Ann's interviewer would appear to be correct at first glance. Jefffire 11:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I have a few problems with this material.
1) I think it, at best, exceedingly poor placement to include any of this in the section of her article devoted to simply summarizing her television appearances. The section of the article devoted to "plagiarism and factual inaccuracy" seems "tailor-made" for this kind of thing, does it not?
2) Simply including a video of the interview (regardless of whether it was from "youtube" or the network that broadcast the interview itself) is not a source sufficient to make the allegation that Coulter said anything inaccurate anything but original research.
3) Lou's conclusion that the interviewer was wrong, while based on impressive research, is also original research.
4) If there aren't many sources (qualifying under wikipedia policy) which actually accuse Coulter of making a mistake, I question the notability of the entire incident. Lawyer2b 12:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the interview and commentary about it are relevent. Coulter's critics have sought to portray her as "uninformed" or "sloppy with facts", etc., in an attempt to silence her (or at least to get people to ignore her).
I studied the interview around a year ago. My impression is that Coulter and the interviewer were talking at cross purposes.
Coulter meant by "sent troops to Vietnam" either or both of:
The "interviewer" made no effort to clear up the conflict over terminology, but pounced on Coulter and used her remark against her. If he were a Wikipedian, his "edit" would have been reverted for "NPOV violations". It seemed like a partisan attack to me.
We could compare this to "America sent aid to tsunami victims". Some of that would be the U.S. government and some would be the American people.
We need to ask, in each case, did you mean the government or the people? Our readers will be interested to know which authors can or can't think fast on their feet, of course, but others will be interested to know (after the dust settles) what their written positions are.
It would be good to have a neutral description of this incident in Wikipedia, as there are thousands of references to it in the blogosphere. -- Uncle Ed 18:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree this really has no place in the article. Coulter's own material certifies her as an ignorant and hateful nutter. Yet it seems fashionable lately to capture and deconstruct her every gaffe and stutter made on TV and make the judgement "OMG she totally got smacked down on TV." Most of this stuff is weak and non-notable; it reflects more on the obsession of her peanut-gallery critics than on her own lack of intelligence. If you want to look for legitimate negative material on her, just pick up one of her books and select a page at random. The Crow 20:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
While I'm not arguing for a reinclusion, I have to say I would think the vast majority of people would assume that when you say Canada (or country X) sent troops to Vietnam, you meant the government. Indeed, I don't think it would occur to the vast majority of people you might mean citizens of that country joining other armies. It wouldn't occur to me that's for sure. There are severals regions for this. For starters, citizens joining other armies are there representing that armies country. A Canadian citizen in the US army in Vietnam is a (US) American soldier. Not a Canadian soldier. This is not at all the same as donations. While I think most people would similarly assume you were talking about the government, I think many people would at least appreciate and accept it if you refer to the citizens privately donating money. After all, these people are in a way representing their country. If someone wanted to refer to Canadian citizens joining the US Army to fight in Vietname, I would suggest they would have to make that clear (e.g. although the Canadian government didn't partake in the fight, their citizens did)... Nil Einne 20:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the following material from "Background, early life, etc." Should be moved to the new "Personal life" section at the end of the article:
There are some interesting counterpoints to commonly presumed ideas about Ann Coulter, which could be used in the article. See http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1940 -Rako
Four items that have been discussed and deleted many times have just been restored to the article. They are the "troops in Canada" stuff, the "swimmingly" stuff, the "Adam Carolla non-interview" and a three-year-old book review. You can see the details HERE, though there may have been some changes since.
The ancient book review is, as Dominick said when he deleted it, a "pointless opinion that sits on its own." In addition, it applies to a book that has its own article, which is a better place for it.
The other items have been discussed to death, and I believe there is consensus, especially on "troops in Canada," that they do not belong in the article. There are many reasons to delete them, including that their relevance to Ann Coulter's notability has not been clearly demonstrated. That fact alone, plus their apparent agenda-pushing nature, possibly/probably puts them into the category of malicious edits to the biography of a living person.
The Criticisms of Ann Coulter article was set up to receive material like this, and it needs more well-sourced items. These would be valuable additions, and would not be seen as malicious.
None of these four items legitimately belong in the Ann Coulter article. I say they should be removed until someone shows reasons for including them, which reasons must be stronger than the pages and pages of discussion that have led to their multiple removals. Editors who care about them should consider moving them to the Criticisms article.
What say all of you? (Do like this, if you'd like...)
delete -- their relevance has not been clearly demonstrated Lou Sander 00:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this article, I only now read the 'Criticisms' article and I realize that much of it is redundant, if not a copy, of this article's content or vice-versa. I personally think all criticism should be folded back into this article (properly interweaved, vetted for proper sourcing, neutrally presented, balanced per BLP, etc), per WP policy of encouraging the interweaving of criticism. If not, then logically we would need to remove all criticism from this article and move it all (and point) to the other. I realize Islam and Zionism have separate Criticism pages, but I think to do it for a living person is a bad idea and contradicts WP's policy or spirit. BTW, if there is currently a clear wiki-link from this article to the Criticism one then I missed it. Anyway, I think the current situation is not acceptable. Comments? Crum375 01:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Crum375, I could not agree more. -- Asbl 03:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Amen, Crum. -- kizzle 06:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"It 's always better to weave praise and criticism throughout the article, rather than creating separate sections that turn into POV magnets."
- Jimbo Wales (quoted by SlimVirgin)
- WHY is it better to have criticsm weaved into the article rather than as a section in its own right? Please explain.DocEss 20:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Because praise and criticism sections become magnets for trolls and POV pushers. With a criticism section, people will just keep turning up, slapping any old piece of negative stuff they find on Google, with no attempt to evaluate it or place it in context. Ensuring that both praise and criticism are woven into the text produces a more nuanced and three-dimensional piece of writing that's almost certainly closer to reality, because not black-and-white. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to develop my understanding of just what constitutes original research. Also, it's pretty obvious that one or two other editors are pretty shaky on their knowledge about it. Maybe somebody can help us all out. This appears in the Coulter article:
Of all the material shown, only the stuff in red appears in the reference. Everything else seems to be original research, but I'm not sure of my analysis. Will somebody please help me out here? Lou Sander 12:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"She was born in 1961. Or 1963. Depending on whether you believe her old Connecticut driver's license (1961) or her newer D.C. driver's license. Ann claims the D.C. license is correct, which means that when she registered to vote she was 16. That, of course, would be voter fraud."
I'm impressed Lou. I thought I was the only one who thought the blurb at the end about "If this, then that" was very close to the example cited of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. Lawyer2b 19:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It is original research, and I'm not sure Franken's book would be a reliable source for the issue either, as it is clearly partisan and written with an agenda. I guess we could use Franken's book, in the limited sense of saying this is an assertion that Franken has made. However, I think there should be a better source before this info is allowed to stay. My 2 cents. Ramsquire 19:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have cleaned up the paragraph in question, removing the original research, and leaving the facts that are sourced by the Washington Post article. For a deceased person, Franken might be a reliable source, but the rules of WP:BLP are very strict regarding living persons, and he could be reasonably challenged as being a biased source, and not appropriate for verifying this particular claim. I did not see him cited for this paragraph anyway. Crockspot 20:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
While googling for Franken and Coulter I came across this. Comparing it to the current article and the Franken/Coulter endnotes discussion, it seems we are desperately lacking this type of neutral balance and cross-check. Comments? Crum375 18:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This section remains a stub. It only includes mention of one book review. I think it would be better if this were in the individual book article if it isn't already there. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 20:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph:
Firstly, the inline citations are from a pro-evolution blog, and are questionable per WP:RS and WP:BLP. Secondly, someone else's opinions on her opinion of evolution is irrelevant. All that's important in a bio article is to state her opinions on relgion. Criticism of her writing belongs in the criticism section/article. IMO, this isn't notable criticism. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
If it is relevant to this article that a single reporter states she atttends a certain church and brings guests (and why is that importantor even relevant?) then it is certainly relevant that the officials of that church state they do not know her and and she is not a member. This looks like an obvious attempt by Coulter fans to rehabilitate her, since she frequently claims her Christiainity is the reason she makes her living attacking liberals. I found no Discusion refuting the citings of church officials. I added the balancing statement, assuming that someone has prevented the irrelevant citation from being removed. - getterstraight
This should be put under personal life:
Borcehr's "presentation points out the recent TIME Magazine profile of Coulter which implies that she is a member of Redeemer Presbyterian, an evangelical Christian church in New York, and yet the ministry at the church never seems to have heard of her!
The Redeemer church, "whose non-political stance is well-known, disavows all hateful and hostile speech," according to Borchers' presentation, had to "Google" her name to figure out who she was! Apparently Coulter is not a member of that church at all!" http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1940 - Rako
I don't know who put those bullet points up citing examples of errors that Media Matters found with Coulter's works, but I haven't seen a straw man argument like that in a while. Someone went through and chose the least egregious examples along with characterizing them to the point as if they were just stupid. Where is this one?:
Or this one:
Textbook straw man, which I'll be changing hopefully sometime today. -- kizzle 20:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
In the "Columns" section, I deleted "Generally, her columns are highly critical of the liberal point-of-view. She has argued, for instance, that liberals' insistence on sexual freedoms belies their calls for restrictions in other areas of life, particularly on the issue of health. For example, she asserted that although liberals often lobby for public bans on smoking, they take far less precaution in their sexual health, citing the acts of anal sex and fisting as examples." (Cited reference HERE.)
The citation, falsely claimed to be from a column, is actually from a Media Matters report on a radio show. IMHO, inserting it (or re-inserting it), is defamatory malicious editing, and should be dealt with accordingly.
I replaced the falsely-sourced material with an actual "critical of liberals and Democrats" quote from last week's column, complete with a truthful citation. Lou Sander 23:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:BLP is an official policy. It's kind of long, making it hard to understand unless you read it carefully and repeatedly.
Here is the policy in its official nutshell:
This page in a nutshell: Articles about living persons must adhere strictly to NPOV and verifiability policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim. |
Here are some key points taken verbatim from the body of the policy:
If we all follow the policy, we shouldn't have much trouble. Lou Sander 05:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
While the page is still protected I'd like to ask someone to help me improve this section.
I have a better source for this October 1997 incident mentioned in the "Television" section:
It's from the Time magazine cover story about her, by John Cloud, that right now is footnote number 5, and is the secondary source quoted by tertiary Washington Post source used in the paragraph about the incident.
I would like to rewrite the paragraph in a more precise and accurate way:
I would appreciate it if some registered user would make the replacement in the aforementioned section. Thank you, 216.119.139.84 03:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Coulter only discusses evolution in her book Godless. Her ideas about evolution are discussed at length in the article on the book. I don't think it belongs in the main article on Ann Coulter -- to keep it here opens the door for many other fairly minor topics from her books. Lou Sander 13:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
This section is misnamed and isn't properly focused. Read the citations. Her comments are mostly about airport security, not about "Arabs and Muslims." She prominently mentions Arabs and Muslims as potential security risks, and discusses the whys and wherefores of her opinions on that subject. She doesn't really get involved in other aspects of Arab ethnicity or Muslim religious beliefs. I don't know exactly what title would be best for this section, but somebody should definitely rename it. Maybe "Coulter on Arabs and Muslims as security risks." Lou Sander 13:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity
Thanks to all for their thoughtful comments. I've read and re-read the section in the article, slept on the matter, then read the section again (plus this section and all or most of the citations). I want to modify my original premise and propose a better solution. Here it is:
The section "Coulter on Arabs and Muslims" is misnamed and isn't properly focused. Read the cited sources. Her comments are mostly about responding to 9/11, not about Arabs and Muslims. She prominently mentions Arabs (mostly) and Muslims (almost not at all) as potential security risks, and discusses the whys and wherefores of her opinions. She doesn't really get involved in other aspects of Arab ethnicity or Muslim religious beliefs.
I propose to replace this:
With this:
The stuff in the rest of the section could use some work, but that's minor compared to the problems with the title and the lead. Lou Sander 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
(I took it upon myself to separate the following general material from the above stuff on A&M. I hope nobody minds. Lou Sander 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC))
The entire controversy section needs to be redone. Upon my review, the only sub-section that should remain is the 'Jersey Girls' section. It cites the incident on the Today Show, and reactions from Hillary Clinton, and Rahm Emanuel who urged a boycott of her book. This is the only one that cites significant controversy that arose due to her comments. The 'NY Times bombing' section points to a short comment on Hannity & Colmes and a negative comment from Colmes cited by E&P, the 'Coulter on Arabs and Muslims' section cites a negative reaction from bloggers, and the 'Coulter on Evolution' cites negative reaction from evolutionists as might be expected. If there isn't significant reaction from the mainstream press, it is not notable controversy. If a quotation is listed without also citing a reliable source that describes the controversy, then the inclusion is because the editor feels that the comments are controversial. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Lou, this is about the Television section again. I wasn't really concerned about how the section was going to be fixed as long as it was corrected by the better source. But the Washington Post article includes the report that Coulter didn't know the representative was disabled. Seeing the exerpt from Time down in black and white, I think it looks kind of harsh on Coulter's end without that disclaimer. The source is The Conservative Pin-Up Girl. The excerpt by Kurtz is "I did note that, according to Coulter, the vet was appearing by satellite and she didn't know he was disabled." Let me know what you think. Here is the full citation if you decide you want to use it: "Kurtz, Howard. " The Conservative Pin-Up Girl." Washington Post. April 19, 2005. Retrieved on July 10, 2006. (Just add "ref" and "/ref" within "<" and ">" symbols before and after it.) 64.154.26.251 16:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
What the issue is here isn't particularly clear. I would guess the voting age in Connecticut is 18 so if she were born in 1963, she wouldn't yet be illegible to vote but this is not clear from the paragraph... Nil Einne 19:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Its terribly impolite to ask a lady her age. :P Kyaa the Catlord 12:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This was discussed recently (visible in archive 6) but I think it needs to be brought up again. The current lead photo IMHO needs to be replaced. While it's a photo released on her website, to me anyway it's highly unflattering and makes her look like she's anorexic and is much worse IMHO then the Time photo (which despite her objections, is decent enough, it's quite clear that it's distorted so it doesn't give her an unflaterring look). Her site has several others to choose from [7]. We could take one of the ones with her and someone else and get wikipedia to only show her as the thumbnail... The photo is one of the best in actually showing her and at a decent size (perhaps that's why she looks so unflattering? who knows...) however I personally believe it would still be better to use another photo for the lead. Perhaps this one? [8]. What do you all think? Nil Einne 21:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The lead says her DOB is December 8, 1961, but later in the article it discusses her D.C. license with a DOB of 1963. How do we address this discrepancy in the lead? -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 17:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Folks, please don't put the reference to her birthdate in the first sentence where it mentions 'born: ...'. This just looks bad. You don't see references in that spot for other biographical articles. If you're going to address this age discrepancy thing, then address it elsewhere in the article and reference it there. But the opening sentence mention of her birthdate should only be for her most commonly accepted birthdate with no reference. Dr. Cash 00:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the former stuff in the lead, about "stronger national security measures" and "closer scrutiny of Arabs and Muslims" really should be restored. They are the major ideas in her 9/11 writings, and quite a few of her post-9/11 columns covered those exact themes. Thirty of those columns were reprinted, mostly under the heading "This is War" in How to Talk to a Liberal. We don't have to cite all of them to state the points she was unambiguously making. In addition to the illustrative "invade their countries" quote, the other sources cited in the article back up the deleted material. Though as the article stands now, they are said to illustrate some sort of anti-A&M sentiment, they are primarily about national/airport security. I'm reluctant to restore the security/Arabs stuff myself, but I think it should go back in. Lou Sander 13:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This recent edit would seem to be major vandalism, described as a minor edit to "link Mel Gibson." What's going on here? Lou Sander 14:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've requested that the semi-protection be lifted. It's been in place for at least six weeks now. eaolson 14:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose to remove the words "Willful submission of any false voter registration information is a third degree felony in the state of Florida" from the Registration and voting section, per WP:BLP. There's no indication that Coulter has been accused of a felony, and to imply such is to risk being sued for libel, especially since the Wikimedia Foundation is based in Florida, the offending words also involve Florida, the offended party is an attorney from Florida, etc. Lou Sander 16:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
She likes the Grateful Dead?? That is like the biggest hippie band ever! To put things in perspective, I just went into my local headshop the other day and every tshirt either featured Bob Marley, Grateful Dead or Alice In Wonderland. Wtf this is like when I found out Bush listened to the Beatles -- insertwackynamehere 22:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
"Her maternal grandfather Hunter Hart Martin (1897-1954) was originally named Hunter Hart Weissinger, but changed his name." What do you want to imply, that he was Jewish? -- Vladko 03:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Pardon me, I've been enjoying myself over at Protest Warrior lately so I apologize if this has been discussed. The following text has been inserted in the Plagiarism and Factual accuracy section.
“ | On page 134 of Coulter's book, Slander, Coulter claims that during Reagan's Iran-Contra scandal, Reagan's approval ratings fell five percent, from 80 to 75%. A Christian Science Monitor article is cited from January 7, 1987. In actuality, the article states, Reagan's approval ratings fell from 63 to 47%.
Coulter relies heavily on the LexisNexis search, a program designed to search various newspapers with the use of keywords or phrases. Many of Coulter's claims are that various "left leaning" newspapers did not cover one event or story due to a hidden agenda. However, Coulter's use of keywords and phrases when searching, give her incomplete results. Many of her claims have come to light as false, having the newspapers she claims not covering a certain story, indeed covering it. In Slander, Coulter alleges The New York Times did not cover NASCAR driver Dale Earnhardt's death until two days after he died: "The day after seven-time NASCAR Winston Cup champion Dale Earnhardt died in a race at the Daytona 500, almost every newspaper in America carried the story on the front page. Stock-car racing had been the nation's fastest-growing sport for a decade, and NASCAR the second-most-watched sport behind the NFL. More Americans recognize the name Dale Earnhardt than, say, Maureen Dowd. (Manhattan liberals are dumbly blinking at that last sentence.) It took The New York Times two days to deem Earnhardt's death sufficiently important to mention it on the first page. Demonstrating the left's renowned populist touch, the article began, 'His death brought a silence to the Wal-Mart.' The Times went on to report that in vast swaths of the country people watch stock-car racing. Tacky people were mourning Dale Earnhardt all over the South!" The The New York Times did cover Earnhart's death and covered it on the front page. Earnhardt died on February 18, 2001. Another article appeared in the Times on the front page, on February 19, 2001, one day later, after their intial front-page story, written by sportswriter Robert Lipsyte, making it two days in a row the The New York Times covered Earnhardt's death. Coulter cites an article indeed written two days later, by Rick Bragg, a Pulitzer Prize winner who grew up in the South, who wrote a personal piece on Earnhardt and his passing, bringing the total to three times in which the Times covered Earnhardt, three days in a row. |
” |
Several points seem to be specifically unsupported original research and the rest of it (which may be original research as well) is of questionable notability. It seems like an attempt to list occasions when Coulter was/appears to be inaccurate. This section, IMHO, should not be used to allow any editor to subjectively choose and list those instances. The examples chosen for inclusion, IMHO, should at least have been notable enough to have been written about in some reliable sources. Ohpeenyons? Lawyer2b 18:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR states that original research, "includes unpublished material, for example, arguments, concepts, data, ideas, statements, or theories, or any new analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. (emphasis mine) With no external sources saying, "Here Coulter said X. And here is Y, proving X is wrong," I don't see how the above material can possibly be anything other than original research. I'm taking it out. Lawyer2b 23:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The material attempting to explain why Coulter is inaccurate appears to be original research. (Me, I think she's just making shit up instead of using L/N poorly.) But the material about her inaccuracies such as the NYT Earnhart article should remain. Gamaliel 14:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, as the person who originally pointed out what appeared to be original research, it now appears that the material is validly sourced. The only thing I think might improve it would be to write something more neutral introducing it like, "According to Al Franken's book Lying Liars, etc..." Lawyer2b 21:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been on wikibreak for some weeks until recently, so I'm just noticing some of the changes that have been made. The lead image is the most eye-catching one. I'm curious as to the reasoning for its replacement of the previous lead image; it's fairly grainy and not particularly recent, unless I'm mistaken. Kasreyn 08:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
How do I add the following image into the article? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/26/politics/main631949.shtml -Rako
I know that one or more administrators have expressed strong opinions that Ann Coulter lacks integrity (e.g. "makes shit up"). I respect that point of view, and I assume the good faith of all who hold it, and of all who work it into the Ann Coulter article. But do we really want this article to "speculate" that Ann has Marfan Syndrome? Is the cited reference, a blog that also says "She is, however, a pathetic excuse for a human being, and Adam Carolla of all people, bitch-slapped her," really the sort of "high quality reference" that WP:BLP refers to in saying "Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives?" And is it really a Minor edit to put this material into the Background, early life, and education section? I say NO to all three questions, but I don't want to step on any toes by reverting the edit. Lou Sander 04:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Issues about whether or not the disputed passage should be inserted for balance purposes is one thing, but how does Crooksandliars.com violate WP:RS? Regardless of the opinions stated on that site, they include videos of what they're talking about, which seems to me to be the very paradigm of WP:V. -- kizzle 17:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Not clear to me why calling someone a "Coulter fan" is not "civil", but since you seem to get defensive about it, I'll refrain from using that term. If you are sincere that you "see no reason why that video segment should not be included" please restore it, and we can debate the words around it. -- Asbl 19:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
There are tons of secondary sources who refer to the video see [13]. Her appearance was certainly notable and is being discussed all over. -- Asbl 20:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
You are making baseless accusation, bordering on slander. Nowhere have I violated 3RR, and you refuse to address the issue that there is nothing more verifyable than the video of Coulter moving her lips, which means that it is completely consistent with WP:RS. It seems that the Coulterites and their sock puppets have taken over this article. -- Asbl 17:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I have long wondered why editors so diligently seek and post negative material about Ann Coulter, but not about other controversial people, and why the negative material is so strongly enhanced and defended by those who post it. My eyes have recently been opened, however, and now I no longer wonder. Nevertheless, this IS a biography of a living person, and I believe we should refrain from posting such a huge amount of negative material, regardless of its being well- or poorly-sourced. Lou Sander 18:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the other big problem I see with 'crooksandliars.com' is their copyright infringement. I highly doubt that they have permission from Fox News and other media sources to be redistributing video excerpts that were clearly lifted from broadcast or cable TV. Dr. Cash 19:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As always, your doubt = your POV. -- Asbl 20:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop adding the youtube link as a 'reference' to this stuff! Youtube is a social networking site, pretty much anyone can post videos to the site. It is not a site containing reference material that has any type of editorial controls, and should not be used as a journalistic-quality reference to scholarly publications. Dr. Cash 17:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing the video and many sources, I've put several facts and links into this section of the main article, including specific details of Canadian troops' nineteen-year presence in Vietnam/Indochina. It is false to claim that Canada did not send troops there, particularly in light of Coulter's clarifying "Indochina?" (Please remember that during the time Canadian troops were there, French Indochina was in turmoil, borders were being established and moved, and so forth. The Canadian troops were there to deal with those things.) If you still doubt that Canada sent troops, it may help you to look HERE to see the medal that Canada awarded to them for their service. Lou Sander 10:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Book covers can be used under the "fair use" guidelines to illustrate the articles about the books themselves only. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
First off, I either hate Ann Coulter with all my heart or I think she's the greatest living American author, depending on whether you disagree with my suggestion here or not. I just wanted to get that out of the way, as I'm sure my personal motivations will be brought up. Now, to my actual suggestion: the plagiarism section as it stands is way too much. Not too much as in the material shouldn't exist somewhere, but on a biography page we really really shouldn't be devoting so much space to these claims. It's not that these claims do not meet WP:V or are not sourced properly, but do we need to take 8 paragraphs on her bio page? For the whole passage about Slander, I'm going to move it off to the Slander website. Book-specific charges should be placed on each book's individual article. What should remain, ideally, is a 1-2 paragraph section (like it was before) that is equivalent of what's left when a daughter article is split off and a summary para remains. Blah blah iAuthenticate, blah blah Coulter's publisher's defended her, blah blah something else, and that's it. If we really want to keep all this here, I think a daughter article is quite necessary at this point, but I would much rather place the book-specific info on each book's page, as it makes much more organizational sense. What do other people think? -- kizzle 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Would somebody who knows how please do it? Lou Sander 10:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the article Ann claimed Canada send troups into the Vietnam war, but that it commonly claimed that they didn't. User Lou Sander claims that this is a fallacy. According to the articles on the subject although there was combat between member of the Canadian army, and members of various Vientamese groups, there does not appear to have been any sending of troups into Vietnam or into the war. Canada's involvment appears to be purely peripheral, so Ann's interviewer would appear to be correct at first glance. Jefffire 11:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I have a few problems with this material.
1) I think it, at best, exceedingly poor placement to include any of this in the section of her article devoted to simply summarizing her television appearances. The section of the article devoted to "plagiarism and factual inaccuracy" seems "tailor-made" for this kind of thing, does it not?
2) Simply including a video of the interview (regardless of whether it was from "youtube" or the network that broadcast the interview itself) is not a source sufficient to make the allegation that Coulter said anything inaccurate anything but original research.
3) Lou's conclusion that the interviewer was wrong, while based on impressive research, is also original research.
4) If there aren't many sources (qualifying under wikipedia policy) which actually accuse Coulter of making a mistake, I question the notability of the entire incident. Lawyer2b 12:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the interview and commentary about it are relevent. Coulter's critics have sought to portray her as "uninformed" or "sloppy with facts", etc., in an attempt to silence her (or at least to get people to ignore her).
I studied the interview around a year ago. My impression is that Coulter and the interviewer were talking at cross purposes.
Coulter meant by "sent troops to Vietnam" either or both of:
The "interviewer" made no effort to clear up the conflict over terminology, but pounced on Coulter and used her remark against her. If he were a Wikipedian, his "edit" would have been reverted for "NPOV violations". It seemed like a partisan attack to me.
We could compare this to "America sent aid to tsunami victims". Some of that would be the U.S. government and some would be the American people.
We need to ask, in each case, did you mean the government or the people? Our readers will be interested to know which authors can or can't think fast on their feet, of course, but others will be interested to know (after the dust settles) what their written positions are.
It would be good to have a neutral description of this incident in Wikipedia, as there are thousands of references to it in the blogosphere. -- Uncle Ed 18:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree this really has no place in the article. Coulter's own material certifies her as an ignorant and hateful nutter. Yet it seems fashionable lately to capture and deconstruct her every gaffe and stutter made on TV and make the judgement "OMG she totally got smacked down on TV." Most of this stuff is weak and non-notable; it reflects more on the obsession of her peanut-gallery critics than on her own lack of intelligence. If you want to look for legitimate negative material on her, just pick up one of her books and select a page at random. The Crow 20:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
While I'm not arguing for a reinclusion, I have to say I would think the vast majority of people would assume that when you say Canada (or country X) sent troops to Vietnam, you meant the government. Indeed, I don't think it would occur to the vast majority of people you might mean citizens of that country joining other armies. It wouldn't occur to me that's for sure. There are severals regions for this. For starters, citizens joining other armies are there representing that armies country. A Canadian citizen in the US army in Vietnam is a (US) American soldier. Not a Canadian soldier. This is not at all the same as donations. While I think most people would similarly assume you were talking about the government, I think many people would at least appreciate and accept it if you refer to the citizens privately donating money. After all, these people are in a way representing their country. If someone wanted to refer to Canadian citizens joining the US Army to fight in Vietname, I would suggest they would have to make that clear (e.g. although the Canadian government didn't partake in the fight, their citizens did)... Nil Einne 20:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the following material from "Background, early life, etc." Should be moved to the new "Personal life" section at the end of the article:
There are some interesting counterpoints to commonly presumed ideas about Ann Coulter, which could be used in the article. See http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1940 -Rako
Four items that have been discussed and deleted many times have just been restored to the article. They are the "troops in Canada" stuff, the "swimmingly" stuff, the "Adam Carolla non-interview" and a three-year-old book review. You can see the details HERE, though there may have been some changes since.
The ancient book review is, as Dominick said when he deleted it, a "pointless opinion that sits on its own." In addition, it applies to a book that has its own article, which is a better place for it.
The other items have been discussed to death, and I believe there is consensus, especially on "troops in Canada," that they do not belong in the article. There are many reasons to delete them, including that their relevance to Ann Coulter's notability has not been clearly demonstrated. That fact alone, plus their apparent agenda-pushing nature, possibly/probably puts them into the category of malicious edits to the biography of a living person.
The Criticisms of Ann Coulter article was set up to receive material like this, and it needs more well-sourced items. These would be valuable additions, and would not be seen as malicious.
None of these four items legitimately belong in the Ann Coulter article. I say they should be removed until someone shows reasons for including them, which reasons must be stronger than the pages and pages of discussion that have led to their multiple removals. Editors who care about them should consider moving them to the Criticisms article.
What say all of you? (Do like this, if you'd like...)
delete -- their relevance has not been clearly demonstrated Lou Sander 00:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this article, I only now read the 'Criticisms' article and I realize that much of it is redundant, if not a copy, of this article's content or vice-versa. I personally think all criticism should be folded back into this article (properly interweaved, vetted for proper sourcing, neutrally presented, balanced per BLP, etc), per WP policy of encouraging the interweaving of criticism. If not, then logically we would need to remove all criticism from this article and move it all (and point) to the other. I realize Islam and Zionism have separate Criticism pages, but I think to do it for a living person is a bad idea and contradicts WP's policy or spirit. BTW, if there is currently a clear wiki-link from this article to the Criticism one then I missed it. Anyway, I think the current situation is not acceptable. Comments? Crum375 01:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Crum375, I could not agree more. -- Asbl 03:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Amen, Crum. -- kizzle 06:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely spot on Crum375 Buyo 13:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
"It 's always better to weave praise and criticism throughout the article, rather than creating separate sections that turn into POV magnets."
- Jimbo Wales (quoted by SlimVirgin)
- WHY is it better to have criticsm weaved into the article rather than as a section in its own right? Please explain.DocEss 20:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Because praise and criticism sections become magnets for trolls and POV pushers. With a criticism section, people will just keep turning up, slapping any old piece of negative stuff they find on Google, with no attempt to evaluate it or place it in context. Ensuring that both praise and criticism are woven into the text produces a more nuanced and three-dimensional piece of writing that's almost certainly closer to reality, because not black-and-white. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to develop my understanding of just what constitutes original research. Also, it's pretty obvious that one or two other editors are pretty shaky on their knowledge about it. Maybe somebody can help us all out. This appears in the Coulter article:
Of all the material shown, only the stuff in red appears in the reference. Everything else seems to be original research, but I'm not sure of my analysis. Will somebody please help me out here? Lou Sander 12:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"She was born in 1961. Or 1963. Depending on whether you believe her old Connecticut driver's license (1961) or her newer D.C. driver's license. Ann claims the D.C. license is correct, which means that when she registered to vote she was 16. That, of course, would be voter fraud."
I'm impressed Lou. I thought I was the only one who thought the blurb at the end about "If this, then that" was very close to the example cited of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. Lawyer2b 19:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It is original research, and I'm not sure Franken's book would be a reliable source for the issue either, as it is clearly partisan and written with an agenda. I guess we could use Franken's book, in the limited sense of saying this is an assertion that Franken has made. However, I think there should be a better source before this info is allowed to stay. My 2 cents. Ramsquire 19:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have cleaned up the paragraph in question, removing the original research, and leaving the facts that are sourced by the Washington Post article. For a deceased person, Franken might be a reliable source, but the rules of WP:BLP are very strict regarding living persons, and he could be reasonably challenged as being a biased source, and not appropriate for verifying this particular claim. I did not see him cited for this paragraph anyway. Crockspot 20:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
While googling for Franken and Coulter I came across this. Comparing it to the current article and the Franken/Coulter endnotes discussion, it seems we are desperately lacking this type of neutral balance and cross-check. Comments? Crum375 18:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This section remains a stub. It only includes mention of one book review. I think it would be better if this were in the individual book article if it isn't already there. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 20:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph:
Firstly, the inline citations are from a pro-evolution blog, and are questionable per WP:RS and WP:BLP. Secondly, someone else's opinions on her opinion of evolution is irrelevant. All that's important in a bio article is to state her opinions on relgion. Criticism of her writing belongs in the criticism section/article. IMO, this isn't notable criticism. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
If it is relevant to this article that a single reporter states she atttends a certain church and brings guests (and why is that importantor even relevant?) then it is certainly relevant that the officials of that church state they do not know her and and she is not a member. This looks like an obvious attempt by Coulter fans to rehabilitate her, since she frequently claims her Christiainity is the reason she makes her living attacking liberals. I found no Discusion refuting the citings of church officials. I added the balancing statement, assuming that someone has prevented the irrelevant citation from being removed. - getterstraight
This should be put under personal life:
Borcehr's "presentation points out the recent TIME Magazine profile of Coulter which implies that she is a member of Redeemer Presbyterian, an evangelical Christian church in New York, and yet the ministry at the church never seems to have heard of her!
The Redeemer church, "whose non-political stance is well-known, disavows all hateful and hostile speech," according to Borchers' presentation, had to "Google" her name to figure out who she was! Apparently Coulter is not a member of that church at all!" http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1940 - Rako
I don't know who put those bullet points up citing examples of errors that Media Matters found with Coulter's works, but I haven't seen a straw man argument like that in a while. Someone went through and chose the least egregious examples along with characterizing them to the point as if they were just stupid. Where is this one?:
Or this one:
Textbook straw man, which I'll be changing hopefully sometime today. -- kizzle 20:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
In the "Columns" section, I deleted "Generally, her columns are highly critical of the liberal point-of-view. She has argued, for instance, that liberals' insistence on sexual freedoms belies their calls for restrictions in other areas of life, particularly on the issue of health. For example, she asserted that although liberals often lobby for public bans on smoking, they take far less precaution in their sexual health, citing the acts of anal sex and fisting as examples." (Cited reference HERE.)
The citation, falsely claimed to be from a column, is actually from a Media Matters report on a radio show. IMHO, inserting it (or re-inserting it), is defamatory malicious editing, and should be dealt with accordingly.
I replaced the falsely-sourced material with an actual "critical of liberals and Democrats" quote from last week's column, complete with a truthful citation. Lou Sander 23:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:BLP is an official policy. It's kind of long, making it hard to understand unless you read it carefully and repeatedly.
Here is the policy in its official nutshell:
This page in a nutshell: Articles about living persons must adhere strictly to NPOV and verifiability policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim. |
Here are some key points taken verbatim from the body of the policy:
If we all follow the policy, we shouldn't have much trouble. Lou Sander 05:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
While the page is still protected I'd like to ask someone to help me improve this section.
I have a better source for this October 1997 incident mentioned in the "Television" section:
It's from the Time magazine cover story about her, by John Cloud, that right now is footnote number 5, and is the secondary source quoted by tertiary Washington Post source used in the paragraph about the incident.
I would like to rewrite the paragraph in a more precise and accurate way:
I would appreciate it if some registered user would make the replacement in the aforementioned section. Thank you, 216.119.139.84 03:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Coulter only discusses evolution in her book Godless. Her ideas about evolution are discussed at length in the article on the book. I don't think it belongs in the main article on Ann Coulter -- to keep it here opens the door for many other fairly minor topics from her books. Lou Sander 13:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose to delete this entire section. Per the discussion above, the topic is, and should be, discussed in the article on Godless. The particular incident discussed here is NOT covered in that article, but the whole evolution dispute IS covered at great length. Not only that, but I tried to find a good place to insert it, and I didn't find one. I'm going to leave this here for a few days (to give others a chance to move it), then delete the section. Lou Sander 12:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
This section is misnamed and isn't properly focused. Read the citations. Her comments are mostly about airport security, not about "Arabs and Muslims." She prominently mentions Arabs and Muslims as potential security risks, and discusses the whys and wherefores of her opinions on that subject. She doesn't really get involved in other aspects of Arab ethnicity or Muslim religious beliefs. I don't know exactly what title would be best for this section, but somebody should definitely rename it. Maybe "Coulter on Arabs and Muslims as security risks." Lou Sander 13:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity
Thanks to all for their thoughtful comments. I've read and re-read the section in the article, slept on the matter, then read the section again (plus this section and all or most of the citations). I want to modify my original premise and propose a better solution. Here it is:
The section "Coulter on Arabs and Muslims" is misnamed and isn't properly focused. Read the cited sources. Her comments are mostly about responding to 9/11, not about Arabs and Muslims. She prominently mentions Arabs (mostly) and Muslims (almost not at all) as potential security risks, and discusses the whys and wherefores of her opinions. She doesn't really get involved in other aspects of Arab ethnicity or Muslim religious beliefs.
I propose to replace this:
With this:
The stuff in the rest of the section could use some work, but that's minor compared to the problems with the title and the lead. Lou Sander 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
(I took it upon myself to separate the following general material from the above stuff on A&M. I hope nobody minds. Lou Sander 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC))
The entire controversy section needs to be redone. Upon my review, the only sub-section that should remain is the 'Jersey Girls' section. It cites the incident on the Today Show, and reactions from Hillary Clinton, and Rahm Emanuel who urged a boycott of her book. This is the only one that cites significant controversy that arose due to her comments. The 'NY Times bombing' section points to a short comment on Hannity & Colmes and a negative comment from Colmes cited by E&P, the 'Coulter on Arabs and Muslims' section cites a negative reaction from bloggers, and the 'Coulter on Evolution' cites negative reaction from evolutionists as might be expected. If there isn't significant reaction from the mainstream press, it is not notable controversy. If a quotation is listed without also citing a reliable source that describes the controversy, then the inclusion is because the editor feels that the comments are controversial. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Lou, this is about the Television section again. I wasn't really concerned about how the section was going to be fixed as long as it was corrected by the better source. But the Washington Post article includes the report that Coulter didn't know the representative was disabled. Seeing the exerpt from Time down in black and white, I think it looks kind of harsh on Coulter's end without that disclaimer. The source is The Conservative Pin-Up Girl. The excerpt by Kurtz is "I did note that, according to Coulter, the vet was appearing by satellite and she didn't know he was disabled." Let me know what you think. Here is the full citation if you decide you want to use it: "Kurtz, Howard. " The Conservative Pin-Up Girl." Washington Post. April 19, 2005. Retrieved on July 10, 2006. (Just add "ref" and "/ref" within "<" and ">" symbols before and after it.) 64.154.26.251 16:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
What the issue is here isn't particularly clear. I would guess the voting age in Connecticut is 18 so if she were born in 1963, she wouldn't yet be illegible to vote but this is not clear from the paragraph... Nil Einne 19:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Its terribly impolite to ask a lady her age. :P Kyaa the Catlord 12:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This was discussed recently (visible in archive 6) but I think it needs to be brought up again. The current lead photo IMHO needs to be replaced. While it's a photo released on her website, to me anyway it's highly unflattering and makes her look like she's anorexic and is much worse IMHO then the Time photo (which despite her objections, is decent enough, it's quite clear that it's distorted so it doesn't give her an unflaterring look). Her site has several others to choose from [19]. We could take one of the ones with her and someone else and get wikipedia to only show her as the thumbnail... The photo is one of the best in actually showing her and at a decent size (perhaps that's why she looks so unflattering? who knows...) however I personally believe it would still be better to use another photo for the lead. Perhaps this one? [20]. What do you all think? Nil Einne 21:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The lead says her DOB is December 8, 1961, but later in the article it discusses her D.C. license with a DOB of 1963. How do we address this discrepancy in the lead? -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 17:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Folks, please don't put the reference to her birthdate in the first sentence where it mentions 'born: ...'. This just looks bad. You don't see references in that spot for other biographical articles. If you're going to address this age discrepancy thing, then address it elsewhere in the article and reference it there. But the opening sentence mention of her birthdate should only be for her most commonly accepted birthdate with no reference. Dr. Cash 00:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the former stuff in the lead, about "stronger national security measures" and "closer scrutiny of Arabs and Muslims" really should be restored. They are the major ideas in her 9/11 writings, and quite a few of her post-9/11 columns covered those exact themes. Thirty of those columns were reprinted, mostly under the heading "This is War" in How to Talk to a Liberal. We don't have to cite all of them to state the points she was unambiguously making. In addition to the illustrative "invade their countries" quote, the other sources cited in the article back up the deleted material. Though as the article stands now, they are said to illustrate some sort of anti-A&M sentiment, they are primarily about national/airport security. I'm reluctant to restore the security/Arabs stuff myself, but I think it should go back in. Lou Sander 13:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This recent edit would seem to be major vandalism, described as a minor edit to "link Mel Gibson." What's going on here? Lou Sander 14:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've requested that the semi-protection be lifted. It's been in place for at least six weeks now. eaolson 14:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose to remove the words "Willful submission of any false voter registration information is a third degree felony in the state of Florida" from the Registration and voting section, per WP:BLP. There's no indication that Coulter has been accused of a felony, and to imply such is to risk being sued for libel, especially since the Wikimedia Foundation is based in Florida, the offending words also involve Florida, the offended party is an attorney from Florida, etc. Lou Sander 16:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
She likes the Grateful Dead?? That is like the biggest hippie band ever! To put things in perspective, I just went into my local headshop the other day and every tshirt either featured Bob Marley, Grateful Dead or Alice In Wonderland. Wtf this is like when I found out Bush listened to the Beatles -- insertwackynamehere 22:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
This person is no better than a right-wing Michael Moore (if politically, she is even on par with him). I've read her hateful, slanderous, completely 1-sided remarks in some of her books, and I'm frankly disgusted.
Zorkael 01:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
To support, "In 2006, Coulter refused permission to include a scene featuring herself and Al Franken in a debate in Connecticut in Franken's film, Al Franken: God Spoke," someone felt the need to include the following quote and set it apart thusly:
“ | In the scene they briefly argue about the late Minnesota senator
Paul Wellstone, then they’re asked a question about which historical figure they would like to be. Coulter says FDR, so she could never introduce the New Deal. Al Franken quickly and easily decimates her with his answer – he’d be Hitler, so he could stop the Holocaust.
But then on Monday directors Nick Doob and Chris Hegedus were informed that Coulter wouldn’t give them permission to use the footage, even though the film has already screened at the Tribeca Film Festival with the scene intact. [6] |
” |
Not only is this quote highly POV and negative towards Coulter, I question why anything more than the cited reference (let alone a quote, set apart for emphasis) needs to be included. I am removing the quote but leaving the cited reference. Lawyer2b 04:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
In her latest book "Godless," Coulter writes "I defy any of my coreligionists to tell me they do not laugh at the idea of Dawkins burning in hell." How very 'Christian' of her, wishing amusing horrific pain for the rest of eternity on another of God's children simply because he thinks differently from her. Hateful woman. Let's have some more of these extremist quotes for the article. 86.7.208.240 22:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Here is a question Coulter answered in an interview she gave to belief.net.
So what do you think really happened? Did God create the world in six days? Did he create each species separately? Did he set a chain of causation in motion? Did he "cause" evolution in the sense that all the species are related to each other but God guided their descent?
Coulter clearly dismisses biological evolution as a complete explanation of life being on earth, but she doesn't embrace specific creation or intelligent design either. She claims agnosticism on the subject, but is familiar enough with the issues to write that non-biological evolution (that is, intelligent life arriving from other planets) is a possible agent to explain the history of life on earth (see next question in the interview).
Does anyone else have an opinion on whether these two categories ought to include Coulter? 216.165.199.50 18:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm really sorry to make a suggestion to add to this huge pile of stuff but here is something the principal editor may decide to include - I'm not putting it in, that's for sure. BUT Miss Coulter is quoted in a Sept 6th review and on a web page regarding her appearance in a film/video production under the auspices of the Coral Ridge Ministries along with the notorious Behe of creationist fame. Their complete misunderstanding of Natural Selection is intriguing. Miss Coulter is quoted below as an expert AND at the same time admitting ignorance. Evidently she slept through biology. story here [26] Show website here [27]
Ann Coulter is stunned. How is it, she asks, that she could go through 12 years of public school, then college and law school, and still not know that it was Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution that fueled Hitler’s ovens. “I never knew about the link between Darwin and Hitler until after reading Richard Weikart’s book,” said Coulter, a popular conservative columnist and a featured expert on the new Coral Ridge Hour documentary, Darwin’s Deadly Legacy, which airs August 26 and 27. Hitler, she said, “was applying Darwinism. He thought the Aryans were the fittest and he was just hurrying natural selection along.”
-- b_calder 23:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a potential problem emerging on the French Wikipedia. For over a year there have been a number of false, contextless, unverifiable and trivial (not to mention non-representative) quotes being employed in the article. I have tried to fix them, but they become quickly reverted. The two reverters are Georgio and Sakharov. Sakharov hasn't bothered to discuss the problem and now he wants to call in "wikipompiers", some kind of mediator. Georgio says he has an "advanced" level of English on his user page, so assuming good faith, its hard to understand how he could contribute such gross mistranslations to the article. I wrote this on the discussion page:
Here is an example of one of his improper quotations:
Concerning the Middle-East, after the outrages of 11 September 2001:
We must/should invade the Muslim countries, kill their chiefs and convert them to Christianity. - We ought to ask to see the passports, including the domestic flights, and search any suspect male individual with swarthy skin - The Congress must/should pass a law ordering all Arabs to leave the country."
This kind of false quotation tests the assumption of good faith rather arduously.
Does anyone know whether the Biography of Living Persons policy extends to all the Wikipedias? If it did it would certainly help matters in case their stubbornness becomes more intractable. 216.165.199.50 22:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
71.112.48.244 00:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC) I think, perhaps, some of the wording in this entry is a bit too soft on Coulter. It says that Coulter "responded to these and similar claims" in a column. Not really. She ignored a few major claims, such as that she registered to vote at age 16, or the claim that she overloaded a LN search to make the NYT look bad. Also, she claimed in her column that Franken intentionally made it look as though Evan & Norman Thomas weren't related. False. Franken used an endnote, just like Ann.
Per WP:BLP, I removed unsourced negative material about an appearance at the University of South Florida. Not only is it unsourced, but neither is it clearly demonstrated to be relevant to Coulter's notability, again per WP:BLP. Lou Sander 12:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Among other things, the picture of Coulter's first book has been replaced by mein kampf. How distasteful. I propose that this page, having already been a target of vandalizing, should be locked from anonymous contributions.
Another is "Often compared to Eva Braun, because she's, y'know, the bride of Satan."
That's common knowledge.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.23.193.113 ( talk • contribs).
A comment like that, "common knowledge" or not, must be reliably sourced. But I hope you already knew that. - Crockspot 18:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Se made a speech to this school, please don't remove that text.
We now have five (5) college campus incidents listed under "Notable controversies." None of them seem to have been notable beyond the campuses on which they took place. (Most of the citations are from student newspapers; the others are from wire services, and are over a year old.)
Really, folks, it is not notable when some students walk out on a speaker and the college paper reports it. Why are we cluttering our encyclopedia with this cruft?
I propose that we limit the number of incidents in this section to three (3). When a new one comes up, we drop an older one, possibly keeping one or two of the old ones if they are more notable than the typical college student protest. Other than that, we could just permanently get rid of the latest, very insignificant, incident at USF. Lou Sander 17:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
"The humor of such comments might be tempered by the context that on 1 October, 1910 the Los Angeles Times' offices literally had been bombed; however, although there had been guilty pleas, the actual guilt has been disputed."
< http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ann_Coulter&diff=82273129&oldid=82156225 >.
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 00:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking " lemmingtatorship", although the linked article does demonstrate that the metaphor is not literally accurate.
You admit that they're newspapers; yet, you see no further connection[s]. Similar names, similar influence,...
I was going to list various other paterns & theories; but, decided not to.
Dear Ms. Coulter, & friends,
Before you bomb people, at least consider what happens when your friends are bombed.
Your standard bearer, Judith Miller (journalist), used to work there. Maybe some of your friends are still there. Although they are not my friends, I do think it best to resist these temptations.
Thank You.
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 03:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I referenced a collection of Ann Coulter's controversial statements and saw that they were deleted. This was my first edit ever, so I was careful to check that they complied with Wiki requirement (in that each article is well referenced, often have video).
It seems weird to link to her columns and yet not be balanced by pointing to another well-cited reference that provides commentary on those columns and a number of her television appearances (86 at least).
The link is here: http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/search_results?qstring=Ann+coulter
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious...
--- Greenness
timemag
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Pardon me, I've been enjoying myself over at Protest Warrior lately so I apologize if this has been discussed. The following text has been inserted in the Plagiarism and Factual accuracy section.
“ | On page 134 of Coulter's book, Slander, Coulter claims that during Reagan's Iran-Contra scandal, Reagan's approval ratings fell five percent, from 80 to 75%. A Christian Science Monitor article is cited from January 7, 1987. In actuality, the article states, Reagan's approval ratings fell from 63 to 47%.
Coulter relies heavily on the LexisNexis search, a program designed to search various newspapers with the use of keywords or phrases. Many of Coulter's claims are that various "left leaning" newspapers did not cover one event or story due to a hidden agenda. However, Coulter's use of keywords and phrases when searching, give her incomplete results. Many of her claims have come to light as false, having the newspapers she claims not covering a certain story, indeed covering it. In Slander, Coulter alleges The New York Times did not cover NASCAR driver Dale Earnhardt's death until two days after he died: "The day after seven-time NASCAR Winston Cup champion Dale Earnhardt died in a race at the Daytona 500, almost every newspaper in America carried the story on the front page. Stock-car racing had been the nation's fastest-growing sport for a decade, and NASCAR the second-most-watched sport behind the NFL. More Americans recognize the name Dale Earnhardt than, say, Maureen Dowd. (Manhattan liberals are dumbly blinking at that last sentence.) It took The New York Times two days to deem Earnhardt's death sufficiently important to mention it on the first page. Demonstrating the left's renowned populist touch, the article began, 'His death brought a silence to the Wal-Mart.' The Times went on to report that in vast swaths of the country people watch stock-car racing. Tacky people were mourning Dale Earnhardt all over the South!" The The New York Times did cover Earnhart's death and covered it on the front page. Earnhardt died on February 18, 2001. Another article appeared in the Times on the front page, on February 19, 2001, one day later, after their intial front-page story, written by sportswriter Robert Lipsyte, making it two days in a row the The New York Times covered Earnhardt's death. Coulter cites an article indeed written two days later, by Rick Bragg, a Pulitzer Prize winner who grew up in the South, who wrote a personal piece on Earnhardt and his passing, bringing the total to three times in which the Times covered Earnhardt, three days in a row. |
” |
Several points seem to be specifically unsupported original research and the rest of it (which may be original research as well) is of questionable notability. It seems like an attempt to list occasions when Coulter was/appears to be inaccurate. This section, IMHO, should not be used to allow any editor to subjectively choose and list those instances. The examples chosen for inclusion, IMHO, should at least have been notable enough to have been written about in some reliable sources. Ohpeenyons? Lawyer2b 18:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR states that original research, "includes unpublished material, for example, arguments, concepts, data, ideas, statements, or theories, or any new analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. (emphasis mine) With no external sources saying, "Here Coulter said X. And here is Y, proving X is wrong," I don't see how the above material can possibly be anything other than original research. I'm taking it out. Lawyer2b 23:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The material attempting to explain why Coulter is inaccurate appears to be original research. (Me, I think she's just making shit up instead of using L/N poorly.) But the material about her inaccuracies such as the NYT Earnhart article should remain. Gamaliel 14:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, as the person who originally pointed out what appeared to be original research, it now appears that the material is validly sourced. The only thing I think might improve it would be to write something more neutral introducing it like, "According to Al Franken's book Lying Liars, etc..." Lawyer2b 21:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been on wikibreak for some weeks until recently, so I'm just noticing some of the changes that have been made. The lead image is the most eye-catching one. I'm curious as to the reasoning for its replacement of the previous lead image; it's fairly grainy and not particularly recent, unless I'm mistaken. Kasreyn 08:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
How do I add the following image into the article? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/26/politics/main631949.shtml -Rako
I know that one or more administrators have expressed strong opinions that Ann Coulter lacks integrity (e.g. "makes shit up"). I respect that point of view, and I assume the good faith of all who hold it, and of all who work it into the Ann Coulter article. But do we really want this article to "speculate" that Ann has Marfan Syndrome? Is the cited reference, a blog that also says "She is, however, a pathetic excuse for a human being, and Adam Carolla of all people, bitch-slapped her," really the sort of "high quality reference" that WP:BLP refers to in saying "Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives?" And is it really a Minor edit to put this material into the Background, early life, and education section? I say NO to all three questions, but I don't want to step on any toes by reverting the edit. Lou Sander 04:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Issues about whether or not the disputed passage should be inserted for balance purposes is one thing, but how does Crooksandliars.com violate WP:RS? Regardless of the opinions stated on that site, they include videos of what they're talking about, which seems to me to be the very paradigm of WP:V. -- kizzle 17:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Not clear to me why calling someone a "Coulter fan" is not "civil", but since you seem to get defensive about it, I'll refrain from using that term. If you are sincere that you "see no reason why that video segment should not be included" please restore it, and we can debate the words around it. -- Asbl 19:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
There are tons of secondary sources who refer to the video see [1]. Her appearance was certainly notable and is being discussed all over. -- Asbl 20:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
You are making baseless accusation, bordering on slander. Nowhere have I violated 3RR, and you refuse to address the issue that there is nothing more verifyable than the video of Coulter moving her lips, which means that it is completely consistent with WP:RS. It seems that the Coulterites and their sock puppets have taken over this article. -- Asbl 17:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I have long wondered why editors so diligently seek and post negative material about Ann Coulter, but not about other controversial people, and why the negative material is so strongly enhanced and defended by those who post it. My eyes have recently been opened, however, and now I no longer wonder. Nevertheless, this IS a biography of a living person, and I believe we should refrain from posting such a huge amount of negative material, regardless of its being well- or poorly-sourced. Lou Sander 18:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the other big problem I see with 'crooksandliars.com' is their copyright infringement. I highly doubt that they have permission from Fox News and other media sources to be redistributing video excerpts that were clearly lifted from broadcast or cable TV. Dr. Cash 19:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As always, your doubt = your POV. -- Asbl 20:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop adding the youtube link as a 'reference' to this stuff! Youtube is a social networking site, pretty much anyone can post videos to the site. It is not a site containing reference material that has any type of editorial controls, and should not be used as a journalistic-quality reference to scholarly publications. Dr. Cash 17:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing the video and many sources, I've put several facts and links into this section of the main article, including specific details of Canadian troops' nineteen-year presence in Vietnam/Indochina. It is false to claim that Canada did not send troops there, particularly in light of Coulter's clarifying "Indochina?" (Please remember that during the time Canadian troops were there, French Indochina was in turmoil, borders were being established and moved, and so forth. The Canadian troops were there to deal with those things.) If you still doubt that Canada sent troops, it may help you to look HERE to see the medal that Canada awarded to them for their service. Lou Sander 10:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Book covers can be used under the "fair use" guidelines to illustrate the articles about the books themselves only. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
First off, I either hate Ann Coulter with all my heart or I think she's the greatest living American author, depending on whether you disagree with my suggestion here or not. I just wanted to get that out of the way, as I'm sure my personal motivations will be brought up. Now, to my actual suggestion: the plagiarism section as it stands is way too much. Not too much as in the material shouldn't exist somewhere, but on a biography page we really really shouldn't be devoting so much space to these claims. It's not that these claims do not meet WP:V or are not sourced properly, but do we need to take 8 paragraphs on her bio page? For the whole passage about Slander, I'm going to move it off to the Slander website. Book-specific charges should be placed on each book's individual article. What should remain, ideally, is a 1-2 paragraph section (like it was before) that is equivalent of what's left when a daughter article is split off and a summary para remains. Blah blah iAuthenticate, blah blah Coulter's publisher's defended her, blah blah something else, and that's it. If we really want to keep all this here, I think a daughter article is quite necessary at this point, but I would much rather place the book-specific info on each book's page, as it makes much more organizational sense. What do other people think? -- kizzle 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Would somebody who knows how please do it? Lou Sander 10:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the article Ann claimed Canada send troups into the Vietnam war, but that it commonly claimed that they didn't. User Lou Sander claims that this is a fallacy. According to the articles on the subject although there was combat between member of the Canadian army, and members of various Vientamese groups, there does not appear to have been any sending of troups into Vietnam or into the war. Canada's involvment appears to be purely peripheral, so Ann's interviewer would appear to be correct at first glance. Jefffire 11:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I have a few problems with this material.
1) I think it, at best, exceedingly poor placement to include any of this in the section of her article devoted to simply summarizing her television appearances. The section of the article devoted to "plagiarism and factual inaccuracy" seems "tailor-made" for this kind of thing, does it not?
2) Simply including a video of the interview (regardless of whether it was from "youtube" or the network that broadcast the interview itself) is not a source sufficient to make the allegation that Coulter said anything inaccurate anything but original research.
3) Lou's conclusion that the interviewer was wrong, while based on impressive research, is also original research.
4) If there aren't many sources (qualifying under wikipedia policy) which actually accuse Coulter of making a mistake, I question the notability of the entire incident. Lawyer2b 12:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the interview and commentary about it are relevent. Coulter's critics have sought to portray her as "uninformed" or "sloppy with facts", etc., in an attempt to silence her (or at least to get people to ignore her).
I studied the interview around a year ago. My impression is that Coulter and the interviewer were talking at cross purposes.
Coulter meant by "sent troops to Vietnam" either or both of:
The "interviewer" made no effort to clear up the conflict over terminology, but pounced on Coulter and used her remark against her. If he were a Wikipedian, his "edit" would have been reverted for "NPOV violations". It seemed like a partisan attack to me.
We could compare this to "America sent aid to tsunami victims". Some of that would be the U.S. government and some would be the American people.
We need to ask, in each case, did you mean the government or the people? Our readers will be interested to know which authors can or can't think fast on their feet, of course, but others will be interested to know (after the dust settles) what their written positions are.
It would be good to have a neutral description of this incident in Wikipedia, as there are thousands of references to it in the blogosphere. -- Uncle Ed 18:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree this really has no place in the article. Coulter's own material certifies her as an ignorant and hateful nutter. Yet it seems fashionable lately to capture and deconstruct her every gaffe and stutter made on TV and make the judgement "OMG she totally got smacked down on TV." Most of this stuff is weak and non-notable; it reflects more on the obsession of her peanut-gallery critics than on her own lack of intelligence. If you want to look for legitimate negative material on her, just pick up one of her books and select a page at random. The Crow 20:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
While I'm not arguing for a reinclusion, I have to say I would think the vast majority of people would assume that when you say Canada (or country X) sent troops to Vietnam, you meant the government. Indeed, I don't think it would occur to the vast majority of people you might mean citizens of that country joining other armies. It wouldn't occur to me that's for sure. There are severals regions for this. For starters, citizens joining other armies are there representing that armies country. A Canadian citizen in the US army in Vietnam is a (US) American soldier. Not a Canadian soldier. This is not at all the same as donations. While I think most people would similarly assume you were talking about the government, I think many people would at least appreciate and accept it if you refer to the citizens privately donating money. After all, these people are in a way representing their country. If someone wanted to refer to Canadian citizens joining the US Army to fight in Vietname, I would suggest they would have to make that clear (e.g. although the Canadian government didn't partake in the fight, their citizens did)... Nil Einne 20:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the following material from "Background, early life, etc." Should be moved to the new "Personal life" section at the end of the article:
There are some interesting counterpoints to commonly presumed ideas about Ann Coulter, which could be used in the article. See http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1940 -Rako
Four items that have been discussed and deleted many times have just been restored to the article. They are the "troops in Canada" stuff, the "swimmingly" stuff, the "Adam Carolla non-interview" and a three-year-old book review. You can see the details HERE, though there may have been some changes since.
The ancient book review is, as Dominick said when he deleted it, a "pointless opinion that sits on its own." In addition, it applies to a book that has its own article, which is a better place for it.
The other items have been discussed to death, and I believe there is consensus, especially on "troops in Canada," that they do not belong in the article. There are many reasons to delete them, including that their relevance to Ann Coulter's notability has not been clearly demonstrated. That fact alone, plus their apparent agenda-pushing nature, possibly/probably puts them into the category of malicious edits to the biography of a living person.
The Criticisms of Ann Coulter article was set up to receive material like this, and it needs more well-sourced items. These would be valuable additions, and would not be seen as malicious.
None of these four items legitimately belong in the Ann Coulter article. I say they should be removed until someone shows reasons for including them, which reasons must be stronger than the pages and pages of discussion that have led to their multiple removals. Editors who care about them should consider moving them to the Criticisms article.
What say all of you? (Do like this, if you'd like...)
delete -- their relevance has not been clearly demonstrated Lou Sander 00:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this article, I only now read the 'Criticisms' article and I realize that much of it is redundant, if not a copy, of this article's content or vice-versa. I personally think all criticism should be folded back into this article (properly interweaved, vetted for proper sourcing, neutrally presented, balanced per BLP, etc), per WP policy of encouraging the interweaving of criticism. If not, then logically we would need to remove all criticism from this article and move it all (and point) to the other. I realize Islam and Zionism have separate Criticism pages, but I think to do it for a living person is a bad idea and contradicts WP's policy or spirit. BTW, if there is currently a clear wiki-link from this article to the Criticism one then I missed it. Anyway, I think the current situation is not acceptable. Comments? Crum375 01:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Crum375, I could not agree more. -- Asbl 03:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Amen, Crum. -- kizzle 06:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"It 's always better to weave praise and criticism throughout the article, rather than creating separate sections that turn into POV magnets."
- Jimbo Wales (quoted by SlimVirgin)
- WHY is it better to have criticsm weaved into the article rather than as a section in its own right? Please explain.DocEss 20:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Because praise and criticism sections become magnets for trolls and POV pushers. With a criticism section, people will just keep turning up, slapping any old piece of negative stuff they find on Google, with no attempt to evaluate it or place it in context. Ensuring that both praise and criticism are woven into the text produces a more nuanced and three-dimensional piece of writing that's almost certainly closer to reality, because not black-and-white. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to develop my understanding of just what constitutes original research. Also, it's pretty obvious that one or two other editors are pretty shaky on their knowledge about it. Maybe somebody can help us all out. This appears in the Coulter article:
Of all the material shown, only the stuff in red appears in the reference. Everything else seems to be original research, but I'm not sure of my analysis. Will somebody please help me out here? Lou Sander 12:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"She was born in 1961. Or 1963. Depending on whether you believe her old Connecticut driver's license (1961) or her newer D.C. driver's license. Ann claims the D.C. license is correct, which means that when she registered to vote she was 16. That, of course, would be voter fraud."
I'm impressed Lou. I thought I was the only one who thought the blurb at the end about "If this, then that" was very close to the example cited of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. Lawyer2b 19:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It is original research, and I'm not sure Franken's book would be a reliable source for the issue either, as it is clearly partisan and written with an agenda. I guess we could use Franken's book, in the limited sense of saying this is an assertion that Franken has made. However, I think there should be a better source before this info is allowed to stay. My 2 cents. Ramsquire 19:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have cleaned up the paragraph in question, removing the original research, and leaving the facts that are sourced by the Washington Post article. For a deceased person, Franken might be a reliable source, but the rules of WP:BLP are very strict regarding living persons, and he could be reasonably challenged as being a biased source, and not appropriate for verifying this particular claim. I did not see him cited for this paragraph anyway. Crockspot 20:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
While googling for Franken and Coulter I came across this. Comparing it to the current article and the Franken/Coulter endnotes discussion, it seems we are desperately lacking this type of neutral balance and cross-check. Comments? Crum375 18:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This section remains a stub. It only includes mention of one book review. I think it would be better if this were in the individual book article if it isn't already there. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 20:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph:
Firstly, the inline citations are from a pro-evolution blog, and are questionable per WP:RS and WP:BLP. Secondly, someone else's opinions on her opinion of evolution is irrelevant. All that's important in a bio article is to state her opinions on relgion. Criticism of her writing belongs in the criticism section/article. IMO, this isn't notable criticism. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
If it is relevant to this article that a single reporter states she atttends a certain church and brings guests (and why is that importantor even relevant?) then it is certainly relevant that the officials of that church state they do not know her and and she is not a member. This looks like an obvious attempt by Coulter fans to rehabilitate her, since she frequently claims her Christiainity is the reason she makes her living attacking liberals. I found no Discusion refuting the citings of church officials. I added the balancing statement, assuming that someone has prevented the irrelevant citation from being removed. - getterstraight
This should be put under personal life:
Borcehr's "presentation points out the recent TIME Magazine profile of Coulter which implies that she is a member of Redeemer Presbyterian, an evangelical Christian church in New York, and yet the ministry at the church never seems to have heard of her!
The Redeemer church, "whose non-political stance is well-known, disavows all hateful and hostile speech," according to Borchers' presentation, had to "Google" her name to figure out who she was! Apparently Coulter is not a member of that church at all!" http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1940 - Rako
I don't know who put those bullet points up citing examples of errors that Media Matters found with Coulter's works, but I haven't seen a straw man argument like that in a while. Someone went through and chose the least egregious examples along with characterizing them to the point as if they were just stupid. Where is this one?:
Or this one:
Textbook straw man, which I'll be changing hopefully sometime today. -- kizzle 20:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
In the "Columns" section, I deleted "Generally, her columns are highly critical of the liberal point-of-view. She has argued, for instance, that liberals' insistence on sexual freedoms belies their calls for restrictions in other areas of life, particularly on the issue of health. For example, she asserted that although liberals often lobby for public bans on smoking, they take far less precaution in their sexual health, citing the acts of anal sex and fisting as examples." (Cited reference HERE.)
The citation, falsely claimed to be from a column, is actually from a Media Matters report on a radio show. IMHO, inserting it (or re-inserting it), is defamatory malicious editing, and should be dealt with accordingly.
I replaced the falsely-sourced material with an actual "critical of liberals and Democrats" quote from last week's column, complete with a truthful citation. Lou Sander 23:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:BLP is an official policy. It's kind of long, making it hard to understand unless you read it carefully and repeatedly.
Here is the policy in its official nutshell:
This page in a nutshell: Articles about living persons must adhere strictly to NPOV and verifiability policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim. |
Here are some key points taken verbatim from the body of the policy:
If we all follow the policy, we shouldn't have much trouble. Lou Sander 05:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
While the page is still protected I'd like to ask someone to help me improve this section.
I have a better source for this October 1997 incident mentioned in the "Television" section:
It's from the Time magazine cover story about her, by John Cloud, that right now is footnote number 5, and is the secondary source quoted by tertiary Washington Post source used in the paragraph about the incident.
I would like to rewrite the paragraph in a more precise and accurate way:
I would appreciate it if some registered user would make the replacement in the aforementioned section. Thank you, 216.119.139.84 03:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Coulter only discusses evolution in her book Godless. Her ideas about evolution are discussed at length in the article on the book. I don't think it belongs in the main article on Ann Coulter -- to keep it here opens the door for many other fairly minor topics from her books. Lou Sander 13:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
This section is misnamed and isn't properly focused. Read the citations. Her comments are mostly about airport security, not about "Arabs and Muslims." She prominently mentions Arabs and Muslims as potential security risks, and discusses the whys and wherefores of her opinions on that subject. She doesn't really get involved in other aspects of Arab ethnicity or Muslim religious beliefs. I don't know exactly what title would be best for this section, but somebody should definitely rename it. Maybe "Coulter on Arabs and Muslims as security risks." Lou Sander 13:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity
Thanks to all for their thoughtful comments. I've read and re-read the section in the article, slept on the matter, then read the section again (plus this section and all or most of the citations). I want to modify my original premise and propose a better solution. Here it is:
The section "Coulter on Arabs and Muslims" is misnamed and isn't properly focused. Read the cited sources. Her comments are mostly about responding to 9/11, not about Arabs and Muslims. She prominently mentions Arabs (mostly) and Muslims (almost not at all) as potential security risks, and discusses the whys and wherefores of her opinions. She doesn't really get involved in other aspects of Arab ethnicity or Muslim religious beliefs.
I propose to replace this:
With this:
The stuff in the rest of the section could use some work, but that's minor compared to the problems with the title and the lead. Lou Sander 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
(I took it upon myself to separate the following general material from the above stuff on A&M. I hope nobody minds. Lou Sander 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC))
The entire controversy section needs to be redone. Upon my review, the only sub-section that should remain is the 'Jersey Girls' section. It cites the incident on the Today Show, and reactions from Hillary Clinton, and Rahm Emanuel who urged a boycott of her book. This is the only one that cites significant controversy that arose due to her comments. The 'NY Times bombing' section points to a short comment on Hannity & Colmes and a negative comment from Colmes cited by E&P, the 'Coulter on Arabs and Muslims' section cites a negative reaction from bloggers, and the 'Coulter on Evolution' cites negative reaction from evolutionists as might be expected. If there isn't significant reaction from the mainstream press, it is not notable controversy. If a quotation is listed without also citing a reliable source that describes the controversy, then the inclusion is because the editor feels that the comments are controversial. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Lou, this is about the Television section again. I wasn't really concerned about how the section was going to be fixed as long as it was corrected by the better source. But the Washington Post article includes the report that Coulter didn't know the representative was disabled. Seeing the exerpt from Time down in black and white, I think it looks kind of harsh on Coulter's end without that disclaimer. The source is The Conservative Pin-Up Girl. The excerpt by Kurtz is "I did note that, according to Coulter, the vet was appearing by satellite and she didn't know he was disabled." Let me know what you think. Here is the full citation if you decide you want to use it: "Kurtz, Howard. " The Conservative Pin-Up Girl." Washington Post. April 19, 2005. Retrieved on July 10, 2006. (Just add "ref" and "/ref" within "<" and ">" symbols before and after it.) 64.154.26.251 16:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
What the issue is here isn't particularly clear. I would guess the voting age in Connecticut is 18 so if she were born in 1963, she wouldn't yet be illegible to vote but this is not clear from the paragraph... Nil Einne 19:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Its terribly impolite to ask a lady her age. :P Kyaa the Catlord 12:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This was discussed recently (visible in archive 6) but I think it needs to be brought up again. The current lead photo IMHO needs to be replaced. While it's a photo released on her website, to me anyway it's highly unflattering and makes her look like she's anorexic and is much worse IMHO then the Time photo (which despite her objections, is decent enough, it's quite clear that it's distorted so it doesn't give her an unflaterring look). Her site has several others to choose from [7]. We could take one of the ones with her and someone else and get wikipedia to only show her as the thumbnail... The photo is one of the best in actually showing her and at a decent size (perhaps that's why she looks so unflattering? who knows...) however I personally believe it would still be better to use another photo for the lead. Perhaps this one? [8]. What do you all think? Nil Einne 21:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The lead says her DOB is December 8, 1961, but later in the article it discusses her D.C. license with a DOB of 1963. How do we address this discrepancy in the lead? -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 17:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Folks, please don't put the reference to her birthdate in the first sentence where it mentions 'born: ...'. This just looks bad. You don't see references in that spot for other biographical articles. If you're going to address this age discrepancy thing, then address it elsewhere in the article and reference it there. But the opening sentence mention of her birthdate should only be for her most commonly accepted birthdate with no reference. Dr. Cash 00:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the former stuff in the lead, about "stronger national security measures" and "closer scrutiny of Arabs and Muslims" really should be restored. They are the major ideas in her 9/11 writings, and quite a few of her post-9/11 columns covered those exact themes. Thirty of those columns were reprinted, mostly under the heading "This is War" in How to Talk to a Liberal. We don't have to cite all of them to state the points she was unambiguously making. In addition to the illustrative "invade their countries" quote, the other sources cited in the article back up the deleted material. Though as the article stands now, they are said to illustrate some sort of anti-A&M sentiment, they are primarily about national/airport security. I'm reluctant to restore the security/Arabs stuff myself, but I think it should go back in. Lou Sander 13:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This recent edit would seem to be major vandalism, described as a minor edit to "link Mel Gibson." What's going on here? Lou Sander 14:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've requested that the semi-protection be lifted. It's been in place for at least six weeks now. eaolson 14:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose to remove the words "Willful submission of any false voter registration information is a third degree felony in the state of Florida" from the Registration and voting section, per WP:BLP. There's no indication that Coulter has been accused of a felony, and to imply such is to risk being sued for libel, especially since the Wikimedia Foundation is based in Florida, the offending words also involve Florida, the offended party is an attorney from Florida, etc. Lou Sander 16:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
She likes the Grateful Dead?? That is like the biggest hippie band ever! To put things in perspective, I just went into my local headshop the other day and every tshirt either featured Bob Marley, Grateful Dead or Alice In Wonderland. Wtf this is like when I found out Bush listened to the Beatles -- insertwackynamehere 22:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
"Her maternal grandfather Hunter Hart Martin (1897-1954) was originally named Hunter Hart Weissinger, but changed his name." What do you want to imply, that he was Jewish? -- Vladko 03:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Pardon me, I've been enjoying myself over at Protest Warrior lately so I apologize if this has been discussed. The following text has been inserted in the Plagiarism and Factual accuracy section.
“ | On page 134 of Coulter's book, Slander, Coulter claims that during Reagan's Iran-Contra scandal, Reagan's approval ratings fell five percent, from 80 to 75%. A Christian Science Monitor article is cited from January 7, 1987. In actuality, the article states, Reagan's approval ratings fell from 63 to 47%.
Coulter relies heavily on the LexisNexis search, a program designed to search various newspapers with the use of keywords or phrases. Many of Coulter's claims are that various "left leaning" newspapers did not cover one event or story due to a hidden agenda. However, Coulter's use of keywords and phrases when searching, give her incomplete results. Many of her claims have come to light as false, having the newspapers she claims not covering a certain story, indeed covering it. In Slander, Coulter alleges The New York Times did not cover NASCAR driver Dale Earnhardt's death until two days after he died: "The day after seven-time NASCAR Winston Cup champion Dale Earnhardt died in a race at the Daytona 500, almost every newspaper in America carried the story on the front page. Stock-car racing had been the nation's fastest-growing sport for a decade, and NASCAR the second-most-watched sport behind the NFL. More Americans recognize the name Dale Earnhardt than, say, Maureen Dowd. (Manhattan liberals are dumbly blinking at that last sentence.) It took The New York Times two days to deem Earnhardt's death sufficiently important to mention it on the first page. Demonstrating the left's renowned populist touch, the article began, 'His death brought a silence to the Wal-Mart.' The Times went on to report that in vast swaths of the country people watch stock-car racing. Tacky people were mourning Dale Earnhardt all over the South!" The The New York Times did cover Earnhart's death and covered it on the front page. Earnhardt died on February 18, 2001. Another article appeared in the Times on the front page, on February 19, 2001, one day later, after their intial front-page story, written by sportswriter Robert Lipsyte, making it two days in a row the The New York Times covered Earnhardt's death. Coulter cites an article indeed written two days later, by Rick Bragg, a Pulitzer Prize winner who grew up in the South, who wrote a personal piece on Earnhardt and his passing, bringing the total to three times in which the Times covered Earnhardt, three days in a row. |
” |
Several points seem to be specifically unsupported original research and the rest of it (which may be original research as well) is of questionable notability. It seems like an attempt to list occasions when Coulter was/appears to be inaccurate. This section, IMHO, should not be used to allow any editor to subjectively choose and list those instances. The examples chosen for inclusion, IMHO, should at least have been notable enough to have been written about in some reliable sources. Ohpeenyons? Lawyer2b 18:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR states that original research, "includes unpublished material, for example, arguments, concepts, data, ideas, statements, or theories, or any new analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. (emphasis mine) With no external sources saying, "Here Coulter said X. And here is Y, proving X is wrong," I don't see how the above material can possibly be anything other than original research. I'm taking it out. Lawyer2b 23:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The material attempting to explain why Coulter is inaccurate appears to be original research. (Me, I think she's just making shit up instead of using L/N poorly.) But the material about her inaccuracies such as the NYT Earnhart article should remain. Gamaliel 14:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, as the person who originally pointed out what appeared to be original research, it now appears that the material is validly sourced. The only thing I think might improve it would be to write something more neutral introducing it like, "According to Al Franken's book Lying Liars, etc..." Lawyer2b 21:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been on wikibreak for some weeks until recently, so I'm just noticing some of the changes that have been made. The lead image is the most eye-catching one. I'm curious as to the reasoning for its replacement of the previous lead image; it's fairly grainy and not particularly recent, unless I'm mistaken. Kasreyn 08:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
How do I add the following image into the article? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/26/politics/main631949.shtml -Rako
I know that one or more administrators have expressed strong opinions that Ann Coulter lacks integrity (e.g. "makes shit up"). I respect that point of view, and I assume the good faith of all who hold it, and of all who work it into the Ann Coulter article. But do we really want this article to "speculate" that Ann has Marfan Syndrome? Is the cited reference, a blog that also says "She is, however, a pathetic excuse for a human being, and Adam Carolla of all people, bitch-slapped her," really the sort of "high quality reference" that WP:BLP refers to in saying "Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives?" And is it really a Minor edit to put this material into the Background, early life, and education section? I say NO to all three questions, but I don't want to step on any toes by reverting the edit. Lou Sander 04:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Issues about whether or not the disputed passage should be inserted for balance purposes is one thing, but how does Crooksandliars.com violate WP:RS? Regardless of the opinions stated on that site, they include videos of what they're talking about, which seems to me to be the very paradigm of WP:V. -- kizzle 17:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Not clear to me why calling someone a "Coulter fan" is not "civil", but since you seem to get defensive about it, I'll refrain from using that term. If you are sincere that you "see no reason why that video segment should not be included" please restore it, and we can debate the words around it. -- Asbl 19:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
There are tons of secondary sources who refer to the video see [13]. Her appearance was certainly notable and is being discussed all over. -- Asbl 20:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
You are making baseless accusation, bordering on slander. Nowhere have I violated 3RR, and you refuse to address the issue that there is nothing more verifyable than the video of Coulter moving her lips, which means that it is completely consistent with WP:RS. It seems that the Coulterites and their sock puppets have taken over this article. -- Asbl 17:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I have long wondered why editors so diligently seek and post negative material about Ann Coulter, but not about other controversial people, and why the negative material is so strongly enhanced and defended by those who post it. My eyes have recently been opened, however, and now I no longer wonder. Nevertheless, this IS a biography of a living person, and I believe we should refrain from posting such a huge amount of negative material, regardless of its being well- or poorly-sourced. Lou Sander 18:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the other big problem I see with 'crooksandliars.com' is their copyright infringement. I highly doubt that they have permission from Fox News and other media sources to be redistributing video excerpts that were clearly lifted from broadcast or cable TV. Dr. Cash 19:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As always, your doubt = your POV. -- Asbl 20:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop adding the youtube link as a 'reference' to this stuff! Youtube is a social networking site, pretty much anyone can post videos to the site. It is not a site containing reference material that has any type of editorial controls, and should not be used as a journalistic-quality reference to scholarly publications. Dr. Cash 17:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing the video and many sources, I've put several facts and links into this section of the main article, including specific details of Canadian troops' nineteen-year presence in Vietnam/Indochina. It is false to claim that Canada did not send troops there, particularly in light of Coulter's clarifying "Indochina?" (Please remember that during the time Canadian troops were there, French Indochina was in turmoil, borders were being established and moved, and so forth. The Canadian troops were there to deal with those things.) If you still doubt that Canada sent troops, it may help you to look HERE to see the medal that Canada awarded to them for their service. Lou Sander 10:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Book covers can be used under the "fair use" guidelines to illustrate the articles about the books themselves only. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
First off, I either hate Ann Coulter with all my heart or I think she's the greatest living American author, depending on whether you disagree with my suggestion here or not. I just wanted to get that out of the way, as I'm sure my personal motivations will be brought up. Now, to my actual suggestion: the plagiarism section as it stands is way too much. Not too much as in the material shouldn't exist somewhere, but on a biography page we really really shouldn't be devoting so much space to these claims. It's not that these claims do not meet WP:V or are not sourced properly, but do we need to take 8 paragraphs on her bio page? For the whole passage about Slander, I'm going to move it off to the Slander website. Book-specific charges should be placed on each book's individual article. What should remain, ideally, is a 1-2 paragraph section (like it was before) that is equivalent of what's left when a daughter article is split off and a summary para remains. Blah blah iAuthenticate, blah blah Coulter's publisher's defended her, blah blah something else, and that's it. If we really want to keep all this here, I think a daughter article is quite necessary at this point, but I would much rather place the book-specific info on each book's page, as it makes much more organizational sense. What do other people think? -- kizzle 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Would somebody who knows how please do it? Lou Sander 10:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the article Ann claimed Canada send troups into the Vietnam war, but that it commonly claimed that they didn't. User Lou Sander claims that this is a fallacy. According to the articles on the subject although there was combat between member of the Canadian army, and members of various Vientamese groups, there does not appear to have been any sending of troups into Vietnam or into the war. Canada's involvment appears to be purely peripheral, so Ann's interviewer would appear to be correct at first glance. Jefffire 11:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I have a few problems with this material.
1) I think it, at best, exceedingly poor placement to include any of this in the section of her article devoted to simply summarizing her television appearances. The section of the article devoted to "plagiarism and factual inaccuracy" seems "tailor-made" for this kind of thing, does it not?
2) Simply including a video of the interview (regardless of whether it was from "youtube" or the network that broadcast the interview itself) is not a source sufficient to make the allegation that Coulter said anything inaccurate anything but original research.
3) Lou's conclusion that the interviewer was wrong, while based on impressive research, is also original research.
4) If there aren't many sources (qualifying under wikipedia policy) which actually accuse Coulter of making a mistake, I question the notability of the entire incident. Lawyer2b 12:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the interview and commentary about it are relevent. Coulter's critics have sought to portray her as "uninformed" or "sloppy with facts", etc., in an attempt to silence her (or at least to get people to ignore her).
I studied the interview around a year ago. My impression is that Coulter and the interviewer were talking at cross purposes.
Coulter meant by "sent troops to Vietnam" either or both of:
The "interviewer" made no effort to clear up the conflict over terminology, but pounced on Coulter and used her remark against her. If he were a Wikipedian, his "edit" would have been reverted for "NPOV violations". It seemed like a partisan attack to me.
We could compare this to "America sent aid to tsunami victims". Some of that would be the U.S. government and some would be the American people.
We need to ask, in each case, did you mean the government or the people? Our readers will be interested to know which authors can or can't think fast on their feet, of course, but others will be interested to know (after the dust settles) what their written positions are.
It would be good to have a neutral description of this incident in Wikipedia, as there are thousands of references to it in the blogosphere. -- Uncle Ed 18:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree this really has no place in the article. Coulter's own material certifies her as an ignorant and hateful nutter. Yet it seems fashionable lately to capture and deconstruct her every gaffe and stutter made on TV and make the judgement "OMG she totally got smacked down on TV." Most of this stuff is weak and non-notable; it reflects more on the obsession of her peanut-gallery critics than on her own lack of intelligence. If you want to look for legitimate negative material on her, just pick up one of her books and select a page at random. The Crow 20:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
While I'm not arguing for a reinclusion, I have to say I would think the vast majority of people would assume that when you say Canada (or country X) sent troops to Vietnam, you meant the government. Indeed, I don't think it would occur to the vast majority of people you might mean citizens of that country joining other armies. It wouldn't occur to me that's for sure. There are severals regions for this. For starters, citizens joining other armies are there representing that armies country. A Canadian citizen in the US army in Vietnam is a (US) American soldier. Not a Canadian soldier. This is not at all the same as donations. While I think most people would similarly assume you were talking about the government, I think many people would at least appreciate and accept it if you refer to the citizens privately donating money. After all, these people are in a way representing their country. If someone wanted to refer to Canadian citizens joining the US Army to fight in Vietname, I would suggest they would have to make that clear (e.g. although the Canadian government didn't partake in the fight, their citizens did)... Nil Einne 20:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the following material from "Background, early life, etc." Should be moved to the new "Personal life" section at the end of the article:
There are some interesting counterpoints to commonly presumed ideas about Ann Coulter, which could be used in the article. See http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1940 -Rako
Four items that have been discussed and deleted many times have just been restored to the article. They are the "troops in Canada" stuff, the "swimmingly" stuff, the "Adam Carolla non-interview" and a three-year-old book review. You can see the details HERE, though there may have been some changes since.
The ancient book review is, as Dominick said when he deleted it, a "pointless opinion that sits on its own." In addition, it applies to a book that has its own article, which is a better place for it.
The other items have been discussed to death, and I believe there is consensus, especially on "troops in Canada," that they do not belong in the article. There are many reasons to delete them, including that their relevance to Ann Coulter's notability has not been clearly demonstrated. That fact alone, plus their apparent agenda-pushing nature, possibly/probably puts them into the category of malicious edits to the biography of a living person.
The Criticisms of Ann Coulter article was set up to receive material like this, and it needs more well-sourced items. These would be valuable additions, and would not be seen as malicious.
None of these four items legitimately belong in the Ann Coulter article. I say they should be removed until someone shows reasons for including them, which reasons must be stronger than the pages and pages of discussion that have led to their multiple removals. Editors who care about them should consider moving them to the Criticisms article.
What say all of you? (Do like this, if you'd like...)
delete -- their relevance has not been clearly demonstrated Lou Sander 00:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this article, I only now read the 'Criticisms' article and I realize that much of it is redundant, if not a copy, of this article's content or vice-versa. I personally think all criticism should be folded back into this article (properly interweaved, vetted for proper sourcing, neutrally presented, balanced per BLP, etc), per WP policy of encouraging the interweaving of criticism. If not, then logically we would need to remove all criticism from this article and move it all (and point) to the other. I realize Islam and Zionism have separate Criticism pages, but I think to do it for a living person is a bad idea and contradicts WP's policy or spirit. BTW, if there is currently a clear wiki-link from this article to the Criticism one then I missed it. Anyway, I think the current situation is not acceptable. Comments? Crum375 01:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Crum375, I could not agree more. -- Asbl 03:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Amen, Crum. -- kizzle 06:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely spot on Crum375 Buyo 13:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
"It 's always better to weave praise and criticism throughout the article, rather than creating separate sections that turn into POV magnets."
- Jimbo Wales (quoted by SlimVirgin)
- WHY is it better to have criticsm weaved into the article rather than as a section in its own right? Please explain.DocEss 20:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Because praise and criticism sections become magnets for trolls and POV pushers. With a criticism section, people will just keep turning up, slapping any old piece of negative stuff they find on Google, with no attempt to evaluate it or place it in context. Ensuring that both praise and criticism are woven into the text produces a more nuanced and three-dimensional piece of writing that's almost certainly closer to reality, because not black-and-white. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to develop my understanding of just what constitutes original research. Also, it's pretty obvious that one or two other editors are pretty shaky on their knowledge about it. Maybe somebody can help us all out. This appears in the Coulter article:
Of all the material shown, only the stuff in red appears in the reference. Everything else seems to be original research, but I'm not sure of my analysis. Will somebody please help me out here? Lou Sander 12:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"She was born in 1961. Or 1963. Depending on whether you believe her old Connecticut driver's license (1961) or her newer D.C. driver's license. Ann claims the D.C. license is correct, which means that when she registered to vote she was 16. That, of course, would be voter fraud."
I'm impressed Lou. I thought I was the only one who thought the blurb at the end about "If this, then that" was very close to the example cited of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. Lawyer2b 19:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It is original research, and I'm not sure Franken's book would be a reliable source for the issue either, as it is clearly partisan and written with an agenda. I guess we could use Franken's book, in the limited sense of saying this is an assertion that Franken has made. However, I think there should be a better source before this info is allowed to stay. My 2 cents. Ramsquire 19:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have cleaned up the paragraph in question, removing the original research, and leaving the facts that are sourced by the Washington Post article. For a deceased person, Franken might be a reliable source, but the rules of WP:BLP are very strict regarding living persons, and he could be reasonably challenged as being a biased source, and not appropriate for verifying this particular claim. I did not see him cited for this paragraph anyway. Crockspot 20:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
While googling for Franken and Coulter I came across this. Comparing it to the current article and the Franken/Coulter endnotes discussion, it seems we are desperately lacking this type of neutral balance and cross-check. Comments? Crum375 18:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This section remains a stub. It only includes mention of one book review. I think it would be better if this were in the individual book article if it isn't already there. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 20:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph:
Firstly, the inline citations are from a pro-evolution blog, and are questionable per WP:RS and WP:BLP. Secondly, someone else's opinions on her opinion of evolution is irrelevant. All that's important in a bio article is to state her opinions on relgion. Criticism of her writing belongs in the criticism section/article. IMO, this isn't notable criticism. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
If it is relevant to this article that a single reporter states she atttends a certain church and brings guests (and why is that importantor even relevant?) then it is certainly relevant that the officials of that church state they do not know her and and she is not a member. This looks like an obvious attempt by Coulter fans to rehabilitate her, since she frequently claims her Christiainity is the reason she makes her living attacking liberals. I found no Discusion refuting the citings of church officials. I added the balancing statement, assuming that someone has prevented the irrelevant citation from being removed. - getterstraight
This should be put under personal life:
Borcehr's "presentation points out the recent TIME Magazine profile of Coulter which implies that she is a member of Redeemer Presbyterian, an evangelical Christian church in New York, and yet the ministry at the church never seems to have heard of her!
The Redeemer church, "whose non-political stance is well-known, disavows all hateful and hostile speech," according to Borchers' presentation, had to "Google" her name to figure out who she was! Apparently Coulter is not a member of that church at all!" http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1940 - Rako
I don't know who put those bullet points up citing examples of errors that Media Matters found with Coulter's works, but I haven't seen a straw man argument like that in a while. Someone went through and chose the least egregious examples along with characterizing them to the point as if they were just stupid. Where is this one?:
Or this one:
Textbook straw man, which I'll be changing hopefully sometime today. -- kizzle 20:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
In the "Columns" section, I deleted "Generally, her columns are highly critical of the liberal point-of-view. She has argued, for instance, that liberals' insistence on sexual freedoms belies their calls for restrictions in other areas of life, particularly on the issue of health. For example, she asserted that although liberals often lobby for public bans on smoking, they take far less precaution in their sexual health, citing the acts of anal sex and fisting as examples." (Cited reference HERE.)
The citation, falsely claimed to be from a column, is actually from a Media Matters report on a radio show. IMHO, inserting it (or re-inserting it), is defamatory malicious editing, and should be dealt with accordingly.
I replaced the falsely-sourced material with an actual "critical of liberals and Democrats" quote from last week's column, complete with a truthful citation. Lou Sander 23:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:BLP is an official policy. It's kind of long, making it hard to understand unless you read it carefully and repeatedly.
Here is the policy in its official nutshell:
This page in a nutshell: Articles about living persons must adhere strictly to NPOV and verifiability policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim. |
Here are some key points taken verbatim from the body of the policy:
If we all follow the policy, we shouldn't have much trouble. Lou Sander 05:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
While the page is still protected I'd like to ask someone to help me improve this section.
I have a better source for this October 1997 incident mentioned in the "Television" section:
It's from the Time magazine cover story about her, by John Cloud, that right now is footnote number 5, and is the secondary source quoted by tertiary Washington Post source used in the paragraph about the incident.
I would like to rewrite the paragraph in a more precise and accurate way:
I would appreciate it if some registered user would make the replacement in the aforementioned section. Thank you, 216.119.139.84 03:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Coulter only discusses evolution in her book Godless. Her ideas about evolution are discussed at length in the article on the book. I don't think it belongs in the main article on Ann Coulter -- to keep it here opens the door for many other fairly minor topics from her books. Lou Sander 13:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose to delete this entire section. Per the discussion above, the topic is, and should be, discussed in the article on Godless. The particular incident discussed here is NOT covered in that article, but the whole evolution dispute IS covered at great length. Not only that, but I tried to find a good place to insert it, and I didn't find one. I'm going to leave this here for a few days (to give others a chance to move it), then delete the section. Lou Sander 12:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
This section is misnamed and isn't properly focused. Read the citations. Her comments are mostly about airport security, not about "Arabs and Muslims." She prominently mentions Arabs and Muslims as potential security risks, and discusses the whys and wherefores of her opinions on that subject. She doesn't really get involved in other aspects of Arab ethnicity or Muslim religious beliefs. I don't know exactly what title would be best for this section, but somebody should definitely rename it. Maybe "Coulter on Arabs and Muslims as security risks." Lou Sander 13:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity
Thanks to all for their thoughtful comments. I've read and re-read the section in the article, slept on the matter, then read the section again (plus this section and all or most of the citations). I want to modify my original premise and propose a better solution. Here it is:
The section "Coulter on Arabs and Muslims" is misnamed and isn't properly focused. Read the cited sources. Her comments are mostly about responding to 9/11, not about Arabs and Muslims. She prominently mentions Arabs (mostly) and Muslims (almost not at all) as potential security risks, and discusses the whys and wherefores of her opinions. She doesn't really get involved in other aspects of Arab ethnicity or Muslim religious beliefs.
I propose to replace this:
With this:
The stuff in the rest of the section could use some work, but that's minor compared to the problems with the title and the lead. Lou Sander 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
(I took it upon myself to separate the following general material from the above stuff on A&M. I hope nobody minds. Lou Sander 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC))
The entire controversy section needs to be redone. Upon my review, the only sub-section that should remain is the 'Jersey Girls' section. It cites the incident on the Today Show, and reactions from Hillary Clinton, and Rahm Emanuel who urged a boycott of her book. This is the only one that cites significant controversy that arose due to her comments. The 'NY Times bombing' section points to a short comment on Hannity & Colmes and a negative comment from Colmes cited by E&P, the 'Coulter on Arabs and Muslims' section cites a negative reaction from bloggers, and the 'Coulter on Evolution' cites negative reaction from evolutionists as might be expected. If there isn't significant reaction from the mainstream press, it is not notable controversy. If a quotation is listed without also citing a reliable source that describes the controversy, then the inclusion is because the editor feels that the comments are controversial. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Lou, this is about the Television section again. I wasn't really concerned about how the section was going to be fixed as long as it was corrected by the better source. But the Washington Post article includes the report that Coulter didn't know the representative was disabled. Seeing the exerpt from Time down in black and white, I think it looks kind of harsh on Coulter's end without that disclaimer. The source is The Conservative Pin-Up Girl. The excerpt by Kurtz is "I did note that, according to Coulter, the vet was appearing by satellite and she didn't know he was disabled." Let me know what you think. Here is the full citation if you decide you want to use it: "Kurtz, Howard. " The Conservative Pin-Up Girl." Washington Post. April 19, 2005. Retrieved on July 10, 2006. (Just add "ref" and "/ref" within "<" and ">" symbols before and after it.) 64.154.26.251 16:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
What the issue is here isn't particularly clear. I would guess the voting age in Connecticut is 18 so if she were born in 1963, she wouldn't yet be illegible to vote but this is not clear from the paragraph... Nil Einne 19:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Its terribly impolite to ask a lady her age. :P Kyaa the Catlord 12:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This was discussed recently (visible in archive 6) but I think it needs to be brought up again. The current lead photo IMHO needs to be replaced. While it's a photo released on her website, to me anyway it's highly unflattering and makes her look like she's anorexic and is much worse IMHO then the Time photo (which despite her objections, is decent enough, it's quite clear that it's distorted so it doesn't give her an unflaterring look). Her site has several others to choose from [19]. We could take one of the ones with her and someone else and get wikipedia to only show her as the thumbnail... The photo is one of the best in actually showing her and at a decent size (perhaps that's why she looks so unflattering? who knows...) however I personally believe it would still be better to use another photo for the lead. Perhaps this one? [20]. What do you all think? Nil Einne 21:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The lead says her DOB is December 8, 1961, but later in the article it discusses her D.C. license with a DOB of 1963. How do we address this discrepancy in the lead? -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 17:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Folks, please don't put the reference to her birthdate in the first sentence where it mentions 'born: ...'. This just looks bad. You don't see references in that spot for other biographical articles. If you're going to address this age discrepancy thing, then address it elsewhere in the article and reference it there. But the opening sentence mention of her birthdate should only be for her most commonly accepted birthdate with no reference. Dr. Cash 00:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the former stuff in the lead, about "stronger national security measures" and "closer scrutiny of Arabs and Muslims" really should be restored. They are the major ideas in her 9/11 writings, and quite a few of her post-9/11 columns covered those exact themes. Thirty of those columns were reprinted, mostly under the heading "This is War" in How to Talk to a Liberal. We don't have to cite all of them to state the points she was unambiguously making. In addition to the illustrative "invade their countries" quote, the other sources cited in the article back up the deleted material. Though as the article stands now, they are said to illustrate some sort of anti-A&M sentiment, they are primarily about national/airport security. I'm reluctant to restore the security/Arabs stuff myself, but I think it should go back in. Lou Sander 13:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This recent edit would seem to be major vandalism, described as a minor edit to "link Mel Gibson." What's going on here? Lou Sander 14:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've requested that the semi-protection be lifted. It's been in place for at least six weeks now. eaolson 14:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose to remove the words "Willful submission of any false voter registration information is a third degree felony in the state of Florida" from the Registration and voting section, per WP:BLP. There's no indication that Coulter has been accused of a felony, and to imply such is to risk being sued for libel, especially since the Wikimedia Foundation is based in Florida, the offending words also involve Florida, the offended party is an attorney from Florida, etc. Lou Sander 16:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
She likes the Grateful Dead?? That is like the biggest hippie band ever! To put things in perspective, I just went into my local headshop the other day and every tshirt either featured Bob Marley, Grateful Dead or Alice In Wonderland. Wtf this is like when I found out Bush listened to the Beatles -- insertwackynamehere 22:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
This person is no better than a right-wing Michael Moore (if politically, she is even on par with him). I've read her hateful, slanderous, completely 1-sided remarks in some of her books, and I'm frankly disgusted.
Zorkael 01:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
To support, "In 2006, Coulter refused permission to include a scene featuring herself and Al Franken in a debate in Connecticut in Franken's film, Al Franken: God Spoke," someone felt the need to include the following quote and set it apart thusly:
“ | In the scene they briefly argue about the late Minnesota senator
Paul Wellstone, then they’re asked a question about which historical figure they would like to be. Coulter says FDR, so she could never introduce the New Deal. Al Franken quickly and easily decimates her with his answer – he’d be Hitler, so he could stop the Holocaust.
But then on Monday directors Nick Doob and Chris Hegedus were informed that Coulter wouldn’t give them permission to use the footage, even though the film has already screened at the Tribeca Film Festival with the scene intact. [6] |
” |
Not only is this quote highly POV and negative towards Coulter, I question why anything more than the cited reference (let alone a quote, set apart for emphasis) needs to be included. I am removing the quote but leaving the cited reference. Lawyer2b 04:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
In her latest book "Godless," Coulter writes "I defy any of my coreligionists to tell me they do not laugh at the idea of Dawkins burning in hell." How very 'Christian' of her, wishing amusing horrific pain for the rest of eternity on another of God's children simply because he thinks differently from her. Hateful woman. Let's have some more of these extremist quotes for the article. 86.7.208.240 22:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Here is a question Coulter answered in an interview she gave to belief.net.
So what do you think really happened? Did God create the world in six days? Did he create each species separately? Did he set a chain of causation in motion? Did he "cause" evolution in the sense that all the species are related to each other but God guided their descent?
Coulter clearly dismisses biological evolution as a complete explanation of life being on earth, but she doesn't embrace specific creation or intelligent design either. She claims agnosticism on the subject, but is familiar enough with the issues to write that non-biological evolution (that is, intelligent life arriving from other planets) is a possible agent to explain the history of life on earth (see next question in the interview).
Does anyone else have an opinion on whether these two categories ought to include Coulter? 216.165.199.50 18:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm really sorry to make a suggestion to add to this huge pile of stuff but here is something the principal editor may decide to include - I'm not putting it in, that's for sure. BUT Miss Coulter is quoted in a Sept 6th review and on a web page regarding her appearance in a film/video production under the auspices of the Coral Ridge Ministries along with the notorious Behe of creationist fame. Their complete misunderstanding of Natural Selection is intriguing. Miss Coulter is quoted below as an expert AND at the same time admitting ignorance. Evidently she slept through biology. story here [26] Show website here [27]
Ann Coulter is stunned. How is it, she asks, that she could go through 12 years of public school, then college and law school, and still not know that it was Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution that fueled Hitler’s ovens. “I never knew about the link between Darwin and Hitler until after reading Richard Weikart’s book,” said Coulter, a popular conservative columnist and a featured expert on the new Coral Ridge Hour documentary, Darwin’s Deadly Legacy, which airs August 26 and 27. Hitler, she said, “was applying Darwinism. He thought the Aryans were the fittest and he was just hurrying natural selection along.”
-- b_calder 23:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a potential problem emerging on the French Wikipedia. For over a year there have been a number of false, contextless, unverifiable and trivial (not to mention non-representative) quotes being employed in the article. I have tried to fix them, but they become quickly reverted. The two reverters are Georgio and Sakharov. Sakharov hasn't bothered to discuss the problem and now he wants to call in "wikipompiers", some kind of mediator. Georgio says he has an "advanced" level of English on his user page, so assuming good faith, its hard to understand how he could contribute such gross mistranslations to the article. I wrote this on the discussion page:
Here is an example of one of his improper quotations:
Concerning the Middle-East, after the outrages of 11 September 2001:
We must/should invade the Muslim countries, kill their chiefs and convert them to Christianity. - We ought to ask to see the passports, including the domestic flights, and search any suspect male individual with swarthy skin - The Congress must/should pass a law ordering all Arabs to leave the country."
This kind of false quotation tests the assumption of good faith rather arduously.
Does anyone know whether the Biography of Living Persons policy extends to all the Wikipedias? If it did it would certainly help matters in case their stubbornness becomes more intractable. 216.165.199.50 22:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
71.112.48.244 00:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC) I think, perhaps, some of the wording in this entry is a bit too soft on Coulter. It says that Coulter "responded to these and similar claims" in a column. Not really. She ignored a few major claims, such as that she registered to vote at age 16, or the claim that she overloaded a LN search to make the NYT look bad. Also, she claimed in her column that Franken intentionally made it look as though Evan & Norman Thomas weren't related. False. Franken used an endnote, just like Ann.
Per WP:BLP, I removed unsourced negative material about an appearance at the University of South Florida. Not only is it unsourced, but neither is it clearly demonstrated to be relevant to Coulter's notability, again per WP:BLP. Lou Sander 12:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Among other things, the picture of Coulter's first book has been replaced by mein kampf. How distasteful. I propose that this page, having already been a target of vandalizing, should be locked from anonymous contributions.
Another is "Often compared to Eva Braun, because she's, y'know, the bride of Satan."
That's common knowledge.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.23.193.113 ( talk • contribs).
A comment like that, "common knowledge" or not, must be reliably sourced. But I hope you already knew that. - Crockspot 18:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Se made a speech to this school, please don't remove that text.
We now have five (5) college campus incidents listed under "Notable controversies." None of them seem to have been notable beyond the campuses on which they took place. (Most of the citations are from student newspapers; the others are from wire services, and are over a year old.)
Really, folks, it is not notable when some students walk out on a speaker and the college paper reports it. Why are we cluttering our encyclopedia with this cruft?
I propose that we limit the number of incidents in this section to three (3). When a new one comes up, we drop an older one, possibly keeping one or two of the old ones if they are more notable than the typical college student protest. Other than that, we could just permanently get rid of the latest, very insignificant, incident at USF. Lou Sander 17:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
"The humor of such comments might be tempered by the context that on 1 October, 1910 the Los Angeles Times' offices literally had been bombed; however, although there had been guilty pleas, the actual guilt has been disputed."
< http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ann_Coulter&diff=82273129&oldid=82156225 >.
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 00:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking " lemmingtatorship", although the linked article does demonstrate that the metaphor is not literally accurate.
You admit that they're newspapers; yet, you see no further connection[s]. Similar names, similar influence,...
I was going to list various other paterns & theories; but, decided not to.
Dear Ms. Coulter, & friends,
Before you bomb people, at least consider what happens when your friends are bombed.
Your standard bearer, Judith Miller (journalist), used to work there. Maybe some of your friends are still there. Although they are not my friends, I do think it best to resist these temptations.
Thank You.
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 03:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I referenced a collection of Ann Coulter's controversial statements and saw that they were deleted. This was my first edit ever, so I was careful to check that they complied with Wiki requirement (in that each article is well referenced, often have video).
It seems weird to link to her columns and yet not be balanced by pointing to another well-cited reference that provides commentary on those columns and a number of her television appearances (86 at least).
The link is here: http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/search_results?qstring=Ann+coulter
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious...
--- Greenness
timemag
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).