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Hi @ DeCausa: I think your stated reason, notability, is not a sufficient one for reverting the sourced material. The notability guideline WP:GNG only concerns itself with whether the subject is notable enough to be a standalone article. No such notability guideline exists for article content. Content only has to be WP:V verifiable, not necessarily notable. As the views in the editorial by AC were by his own pen, clearly those views are verified and as such can be quoted into the article. AadaamS ( talk) 18:27, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Sources in the article say that Choudary does not see himself as British. Saying he is British is as offensive to him as saying to Leelah Alcorn that she was a boy called Josh just because it said so on a piece of paper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kebab removal service ( talk • contribs) 21:04, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240691/Swilling-beer-smoking-dope--secret-past-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary.html Why was this removed from the page? He has denied it, but there is much evidence supporting it. Even himself asking for it to be removed from the internet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.174.197.240 ( talk) 21:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The Mail is a mid-market paper, not a tabloid. It's a perfectly good source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.79.181 ( talk) 20:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
in this edit a user removed contrary to section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000 with a comment, that - the charges are not contrary to anything, - however this detail is in the link provided and in the BBC link. I wold like to know why this was removed? I have posted to the users talkpage. Govindaharihari ( talk) 14:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Ow ok, the Guardian link has Sue Hemming, head of special crime and counter-terrorism at the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) quoted,“Following an investigation by the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command, we have today authorised charges against Anjem Choudary and Mohammed Mizanur Rahman.
“We have concluded that there is sufficient evidence and it is in the public interest to prosecute Anjem Choudary and Mohammed Rahman for inviting support for Isil, a proscribed terrorist organisation, between 29 June 2014 and 6 March this year. Each man is charged with one offence contrary to section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000. Govindaharihari ( talk) 14:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it's excessive detail to add the act that he is charged under and I feel it is actually important detail that should be replaced. contrary to section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000 Govindaharihari ( talk)
The contents of the Criticism section should be incorporated in the existing sections, chiefly the Activism, views and marches section. Having a separate section for criticism that includes all the "negative" aspects of a person is both poor encyclopedic writing and problematic POV ( WP:STRUCTURE). Bearing in mind that this is a Good Article and NPOV is part of the GA criteria, this is especially important. Given that the criticisms are about his activism, views and marches there is no reason not to include them in the section Activism, views and marches. Sections are supposed to be organized thematically and not by competing points of view. Finnusertop ( talk | guestbook | contribs) 16:00, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
I reverted a pending edit for reasons of requiring discussion. diff The edit added ..extremist.. to the opening description.. please discuss.I note that a internet search results in a lot of results for islamic extremist against his name, such as http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/islamic-extremist-anjem-choudary-charged-supporting-isis-article-1.2316327 - is extremist a more referenced and apt decriptor than activist? Govindaharihari ( talk) 09:59, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
I find this bias so incredibly mind-boggling. A person who has been on record supporting 9/11, being anti-free speech, death penalty to apostates and a worldwide caliphate ruled by sharia law, is described as a "social and political activist"? Why is Wikipedia bending over backwards to be both overtly politically correct by not stating his extremist tag (which has been stated by the media as well) while simultaneously labelling all anti-Islam speakers as "radical right-wing Islamophobes"? I mean, when sources cite Choudhary as an extremist (and his views are very consistent with one) why is Wikipedia not putting that in the lead? Am I missing something? Is there some sort of policy that mandates this kind of stuff? ~*~ Ankit Bhatt~*~ 18:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Parrot of Doom removed mention of the fact that he is in jail for six months from the header with the comment , way way over the top .....
As I said His being in jail for six months is a major issue in his life and requires a mention in the header - Parrot doesn't like it and has deleted it - but it is imo worthy of a mention completely in the header - is it a secret to be hidden in some distant section? and why? Please explain Parrot? Govindaharihari ( talk) 09:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
what is way way over the top of this comment in the header -
He is currently being held on remand at HM Prison Belmarsh charged with one offence under section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000 for inviting support of a proscribed organisation, namely Islamic State, between June 2014 and March 2015.[1][2] and is to be tried in 2016.[3] Govindaharihari ( talk) 09:27, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
this is what Parrot left - a real rubbish edit - https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Anjem_Choudary&diff=prev&oldid=678423493 Govindaharihari ( talk) 09:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I have taken out some quotations in the article that were cited to The Sun, and some other sources generally considered unsuitable for a BLP, replacing the content with a more general overview of the tabloids' opinions of Choudary from a book. I will happily admit up-front that I have been gradually working through BLPs attempting to remove citations to The Sun while preserving content wherever possible, and this one of the last and most difficult ones to crack. I realise I may be treading similar ground to a conversation we had in Nick Griffin's article some time ago, but hopefully we can come to a consensus that we should strive for higher-quality sourcing in the article. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:41, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I've reverted these (again) for a couple of reasons. The first is that the edits were made to the article's lede section. The information added there isn't in the article's main body and therefore has no place in the lede. I'm also uncomfortable with the addition of a citation that requires a login to read. Normally that wouldn't be an issue, but on a contentious article like this I think it's appropriate to ask someone to provide a copy of the material cited so that it can be checked to see that bias isn't being added to the article. And then there are the numerous formatting errors and the addition of lots of empty fields to the infobox, but they're not as important as the previous point. Parrot of Doom 14:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
The first source is the Wall Street Journal ( http://www.wsj.com/articles/british-prosecutors-charging-islamic-preacher-anjem-choudary-with-supporting-terrorism-1438784612) which says that Mr. Choudary supports the fundamentalist strain of Islamic teaching known as Salafism and believes that Muslims can only attain a state of purity by living in a nation that is based on religious law, known as Shariah.
the second one is the Guardian ( http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/anjem-choudary-islamic-state-isis) which says that Although that was an event that radicalised a generation of Muslim activists, the former friend suggests it might have been Choudary's failure to land a job with a big legal firm upon graduating that set him off on his path to Salafi righteousness.
I've found another one in the Christian Science Monitor ( http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2015/0805/Islamic-preacher-charged-with-promoting-ISIS-in-UK) which says Choudary follows a fundamentalist Muslim doctrine called Salafism and is an ardent believer in Sharia, Islamic religious law.
Whats the problem with these? It's obvious he is a Salafi.
That's pretty lame. The evidence is clear. Just sounds as though you don't like it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.106.202.61 ( talk) 15:52, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Here's a quote from a Cambridge University Press book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=65EZBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=anjem+choudary+salafism&source=bl&ots=4tW36CCPwR&sig=LRLkH-qIY4wB7CQzyH_3MfS6C7o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-jLKY4uPJAhXCTBQKHYLyCCE4KBDoAQgtMAI#v=onepage&q=anjem%20choudary%20salafism&f=false
It says that Some radical Salafist thinkers, such as Anjem Choudary, the former deputy leader of Al-Muhajiroon So the FACT is that Anjem is a salafi. You have given no valid reason for rejecting this FACT other than the claim that they spent only an hour writing the article. Well that's not a good enough reason (in addition to not being true). I will add the salafi label if a better reason isn't given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.183 ( talk) 21:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
If your not going to give a valid reason not to add reliable info then I will add it. Your claim that CSMonitor was typed out in less than an hour is garbage. Where is your proof? What about the other sources? What reason do you have to reject them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 12:05, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
I will reinsert the fact that Anjem is a Salafi to the article. To date the following evidences have been given:
The above evidences make it very clear that Anjem is a Salafi. The reasons for not including the label so far have been:
No valid reason has been provided to remove the fact that Anjem is a Salafi. I will therefore restore this cited information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 11:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
How exactly are the sources dodgy? I have presented 4 reliable sources that prove he is a Salafi as per WP:RS. You have provided no valid reason to remove these sources. Which reliable source states that he isn't a salafi? This is a clear example of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 13:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
We go by facts - facts are determined by reliable sources such as Cambridge University Press, Guardian Newspaper, Christian Science Monitor and the Wall Street Journal. If all these sources have labelled him Salafi then he is a Salafi whether you like it or not. Read WP:RS. According to this all the sources above are reliable and not "dodgy" as you claim. Also, you haven't provided a single source to show that Anjem is not a Salafi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 14:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
You couldn't provide any evidence that the sources I provided are "dodgy". You couldn't provided any evidence that anyone disagrees with the Salafi label. I have provided clear proof from both academic sources and mainstream media that he has been described as Salafi. As per WP:RS I will be reinstating the sourced information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 20:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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The hidden note, "SUMMONSED is the correct legal term. Do not change it to SUMMONED", added with this diff, is incorrect. "Summons" is, in legal use, a noun. The correct verb is "summoned"; although "summonsed" is used occasionally, it is considered archaic by most and incorrect by many. See for example A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage (2001) which calls it a "needless variant": "The horrible expression 'summonsed for an offence' (turning the noun 'summons' into a verb) has now become accepted usage, but 'summoned' remains not only allowable but preferable." Keri ( talk) 17:08, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
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Lets be clear, he was not charged or prosecuted for terrorism, he was charged and prosecuted for "inviting support for a proscribed organisation". Slatersteven ( talk) 13:00, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
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Despite Legal Cheek being relatively well known and established, it is unclear from the provided source who is making the claim, but it is clear that it is being couched as 'a source claimed'. The source is also unclear as to the time frame referred to, both referring to the 2002 removal from the rolls, and also the 'never worked' aspect. Regarding the subject matter and it's relevance to the article, I am unclear as to what it is saying, or intending to say but it seems largely irrelevant. For inclusion would like to see a better source, more clarity, and actual reason for inclusion as currently it seems somewhat odd for the 'spokesman' to anonymously comment about another person in this way. Koncorde ( talk) 20:49, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Hi @ DeCausa: I think your stated reason, notability, is not a sufficient one for reverting the sourced material. The notability guideline WP:GNG only concerns itself with whether the subject is notable enough to be a standalone article. No such notability guideline exists for article content. Content only has to be WP:V verifiable, not necessarily notable. As the views in the editorial by AC were by his own pen, clearly those views are verified and as such can be quoted into the article. AadaamS ( talk) 18:27, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Sources in the article say that Choudary does not see himself as British. Saying he is British is as offensive to him as saying to Leelah Alcorn that she was a boy called Josh just because it said so on a piece of paper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kebab removal service ( talk • contribs) 21:04, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240691/Swilling-beer-smoking-dope--secret-past-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary.html Why was this removed from the page? He has denied it, but there is much evidence supporting it. Even himself asking for it to be removed from the internet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.174.197.240 ( talk) 21:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The Mail is a mid-market paper, not a tabloid. It's a perfectly good source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.79.181 ( talk) 20:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
in this edit a user removed contrary to section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000 with a comment, that - the charges are not contrary to anything, - however this detail is in the link provided and in the BBC link. I wold like to know why this was removed? I have posted to the users talkpage. Govindaharihari ( talk) 14:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Ow ok, the Guardian link has Sue Hemming, head of special crime and counter-terrorism at the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) quoted,“Following an investigation by the Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command, we have today authorised charges against Anjem Choudary and Mohammed Mizanur Rahman.
“We have concluded that there is sufficient evidence and it is in the public interest to prosecute Anjem Choudary and Mohammed Rahman for inviting support for Isil, a proscribed terrorist organisation, between 29 June 2014 and 6 March this year. Each man is charged with one offence contrary to section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000. Govindaharihari ( talk) 14:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it's excessive detail to add the act that he is charged under and I feel it is actually important detail that should be replaced. contrary to section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000 Govindaharihari ( talk)
The contents of the Criticism section should be incorporated in the existing sections, chiefly the Activism, views and marches section. Having a separate section for criticism that includes all the "negative" aspects of a person is both poor encyclopedic writing and problematic POV ( WP:STRUCTURE). Bearing in mind that this is a Good Article and NPOV is part of the GA criteria, this is especially important. Given that the criticisms are about his activism, views and marches there is no reason not to include them in the section Activism, views and marches. Sections are supposed to be organized thematically and not by competing points of view. Finnusertop ( talk | guestbook | contribs) 16:00, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
I reverted a pending edit for reasons of requiring discussion. diff The edit added ..extremist.. to the opening description.. please discuss.I note that a internet search results in a lot of results for islamic extremist against his name, such as http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/islamic-extremist-anjem-choudary-charged-supporting-isis-article-1.2316327 - is extremist a more referenced and apt decriptor than activist? Govindaharihari ( talk) 09:59, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
I find this bias so incredibly mind-boggling. A person who has been on record supporting 9/11, being anti-free speech, death penalty to apostates and a worldwide caliphate ruled by sharia law, is described as a "social and political activist"? Why is Wikipedia bending over backwards to be both overtly politically correct by not stating his extremist tag (which has been stated by the media as well) while simultaneously labelling all anti-Islam speakers as "radical right-wing Islamophobes"? I mean, when sources cite Choudhary as an extremist (and his views are very consistent with one) why is Wikipedia not putting that in the lead? Am I missing something? Is there some sort of policy that mandates this kind of stuff? ~*~ Ankit Bhatt~*~ 18:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Parrot of Doom removed mention of the fact that he is in jail for six months from the header with the comment , way way over the top .....
As I said His being in jail for six months is a major issue in his life and requires a mention in the header - Parrot doesn't like it and has deleted it - but it is imo worthy of a mention completely in the header - is it a secret to be hidden in some distant section? and why? Please explain Parrot? Govindaharihari ( talk) 09:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
what is way way over the top of this comment in the header -
He is currently being held on remand at HM Prison Belmarsh charged with one offence under section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000 for inviting support of a proscribed organisation, namely Islamic State, between June 2014 and March 2015.[1][2] and is to be tried in 2016.[3] Govindaharihari ( talk) 09:27, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
this is what Parrot left - a real rubbish edit - https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Anjem_Choudary&diff=prev&oldid=678423493 Govindaharihari ( talk) 09:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I have taken out some quotations in the article that were cited to The Sun, and some other sources generally considered unsuitable for a BLP, replacing the content with a more general overview of the tabloids' opinions of Choudary from a book. I will happily admit up-front that I have been gradually working through BLPs attempting to remove citations to The Sun while preserving content wherever possible, and this one of the last and most difficult ones to crack. I realise I may be treading similar ground to a conversation we had in Nick Griffin's article some time ago, but hopefully we can come to a consensus that we should strive for higher-quality sourcing in the article. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:41, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I've reverted these (again) for a couple of reasons. The first is that the edits were made to the article's lede section. The information added there isn't in the article's main body and therefore has no place in the lede. I'm also uncomfortable with the addition of a citation that requires a login to read. Normally that wouldn't be an issue, but on a contentious article like this I think it's appropriate to ask someone to provide a copy of the material cited so that it can be checked to see that bias isn't being added to the article. And then there are the numerous formatting errors and the addition of lots of empty fields to the infobox, but they're not as important as the previous point. Parrot of Doom 14:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
The first source is the Wall Street Journal ( http://www.wsj.com/articles/british-prosecutors-charging-islamic-preacher-anjem-choudary-with-supporting-terrorism-1438784612) which says that Mr. Choudary supports the fundamentalist strain of Islamic teaching known as Salafism and believes that Muslims can only attain a state of purity by living in a nation that is based on religious law, known as Shariah.
the second one is the Guardian ( http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/anjem-choudary-islamic-state-isis) which says that Although that was an event that radicalised a generation of Muslim activists, the former friend suggests it might have been Choudary's failure to land a job with a big legal firm upon graduating that set him off on his path to Salafi righteousness.
I've found another one in the Christian Science Monitor ( http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2015/0805/Islamic-preacher-charged-with-promoting-ISIS-in-UK) which says Choudary follows a fundamentalist Muslim doctrine called Salafism and is an ardent believer in Sharia, Islamic religious law.
Whats the problem with these? It's obvious he is a Salafi.
That's pretty lame. The evidence is clear. Just sounds as though you don't like it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.106.202.61 ( talk) 15:52, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Here's a quote from a Cambridge University Press book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=65EZBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=anjem+choudary+salafism&source=bl&ots=4tW36CCPwR&sig=LRLkH-qIY4wB7CQzyH_3MfS6C7o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-jLKY4uPJAhXCTBQKHYLyCCE4KBDoAQgtMAI#v=onepage&q=anjem%20choudary%20salafism&f=false
It says that Some radical Salafist thinkers, such as Anjem Choudary, the former deputy leader of Al-Muhajiroon So the FACT is that Anjem is a salafi. You have given no valid reason for rejecting this FACT other than the claim that they spent only an hour writing the article. Well that's not a good enough reason (in addition to not being true). I will add the salafi label if a better reason isn't given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.183 ( talk) 21:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
If your not going to give a valid reason not to add reliable info then I will add it. Your claim that CSMonitor was typed out in less than an hour is garbage. Where is your proof? What about the other sources? What reason do you have to reject them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 12:05, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
I will reinsert the fact that Anjem is a Salafi to the article. To date the following evidences have been given:
The above evidences make it very clear that Anjem is a Salafi. The reasons for not including the label so far have been:
No valid reason has been provided to remove the fact that Anjem is a Salafi. I will therefore restore this cited information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 11:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
How exactly are the sources dodgy? I have presented 4 reliable sources that prove he is a Salafi as per WP:RS. You have provided no valid reason to remove these sources. Which reliable source states that he isn't a salafi? This is a clear example of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 13:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
We go by facts - facts are determined by reliable sources such as Cambridge University Press, Guardian Newspaper, Christian Science Monitor and the Wall Street Journal. If all these sources have labelled him Salafi then he is a Salafi whether you like it or not. Read WP:RS. According to this all the sources above are reliable and not "dodgy" as you claim. Also, you haven't provided a single source to show that Anjem is not a Salafi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 14:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
You couldn't provide any evidence that the sources I provided are "dodgy". You couldn't provided any evidence that anyone disagrees with the Salafi label. I have provided clear proof from both academic sources and mainstream media that he has been described as Salafi. As per WP:RS I will be reinstating the sourced information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saheehinfo ( talk • contribs) 20:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 14:03, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 18:12, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:56, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:20, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
The hidden note, "SUMMONSED is the correct legal term. Do not change it to SUMMONED", added with this diff, is incorrect. "Summons" is, in legal use, a noun. The correct verb is "summoned"; although "summonsed" is used occasionally, it is considered archaic by most and incorrect by many. See for example A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage (2001) which calls it a "needless variant": "The horrible expression 'summonsed for an offence' (turning the noun 'summons' into a verb) has now become accepted usage, but 'summoned' remains not only allowable but preferable." Keri ( talk) 17:08, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:14, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:27, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Lets be clear, he was not charged or prosecuted for terrorism, he was charged and prosecuted for "inviting support for a proscribed organisation". Slatersteven ( talk) 13:00, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:55, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
Despite Legal Cheek being relatively well known and established, it is unclear from the provided source who is making the claim, but it is clear that it is being couched as 'a source claimed'. The source is also unclear as to the time frame referred to, both referring to the 2002 removal from the rolls, and also the 'never worked' aspect. Regarding the subject matter and it's relevance to the article, I am unclear as to what it is saying, or intending to say but it seems largely irrelevant. For inclusion would like to see a better source, more clarity, and actual reason for inclusion as currently it seems somewhat odd for the 'spokesman' to anonymously comment about another person in this way. Koncorde ( talk) 20:49, 10 February 2018 (UTC)