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I noticed that the article makes no mention of IP (patent, copyright, or trademark). The anarcho-caps who I have spoken with do not consider IP to be legit. However, I'm not familiar with the ideas of big-shot theorists. I think that this is important since the article (incorrectly) implies that anarcho-caps approve of all types of property. IP is a big deal these days, and clarifying the anarcho-cap position on IP is important. I suspect that this would be best in the "justifications of property" section (Natural law vs. utilitarian), but I did not read the article carefully, so I can't really say. AdamRetchless 19:40, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone else want to take this? An anonymous user keeps putting in dubious edits, and I've tried to accommodate them by adapting some, but then s/he keeps putting in more, and I'm tiring of the process. I'm not even very sympathetic to anarcho-capitalism (I just want it fairly portrayed); maybe someone who is would be more motivated to defend this page. There seem to be three separate issues, the first being whether anarcho-capitalists should be called anarchists; but this is discussed in the intro already, perhaps too much. The second, more complex issue is the anon adding in words such as that ancaps favor "supposed free markets" and "ostensibly voluntary contracts", to imply that free markets are not what they are always defined as, and so on. As part of this he argues defense of one's property is aggression and therefore it cannot be considered a "negative right". This seems to me like an anti-property POV, since that is not the usual meaning. The third, related to the second, pertains to the claim that there is no history of ancap violence to impose their view, which is true (there have been so such violent revolutions attempted), but is denied by the anon since these people might have used violence to defend their property, which thus is to "impose their view". These counterclaims are problematic because (a) just about any system, even worker-owned farming, allows for self-defense of (perhaps collective) property; (b) defending one's property in a non-ideal world does not mean trying to impose a different system. Maybe this is a bad summary, but hopefully it communicates the gist. -- VV 11:45, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
2. I'm willing to add "(in the sense of free from state interference)" to the "free market" phrase, but that term is an important one used by capitalists and should be noted.
For the other points, your additions are generally redundant attempts to repeatedly negatively portray the view.
What's wrong with "They consider capitalist corporations based on voluntary contracts as a legitimate..."? Does this really need to be "ostensibly voluntary", or "They consider capitalist what they consider corporations based on ostensibly voluntary what they consider contracts as a what they consider legitimate..."? This is all what they consider the case.
Finally, considering security in one's possessions a "negative right" is not inconsistent with the existence of conflicts in property claims, just as belief that murderers should be imprisoned is not inconsistent with disputes over who committed a certain murder.
3. I've never heard of ASC, but the distinction remains. A history of violence to impose their view refers to bombing city hall or some such to bring about an ancap order.
If one uses violence to subdue a car thief, one is probably doing it to keep one's car, not as part of a long-term goal to bring about an ancap order through enforcing the property rights that would exist in such an order, especially since those rights already exist in the current legal order. Under your interpretation, we could go around Wikipedia adding phrases like "Greenpeace activists have a long history of violence" (one even beat up a burglar!).
4. Interpretations of the American Revolution vary enormously; stating yours as fact is clearly wrong.
Anyway, I will make another series of edits to try to adapt these ideas (including the puzzling objection to the synthesis claim). -- VV 00:05, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The article is about a point-of-view. Of course it's going to contain things that others disagree with. To avoid a POV problem, the anarcho-capitalism article should clearly label anarcho-capitalism as a viewpoint. The article should explain the viewpoint and leave contradictory viewpoints or other disagreements to the reader's intelligence or a separate section in the article. It is stupid to have an article that can't say anything about a viewpoint without being overladen with contradictory adjectives or phrases and it insults the reader's intelligence. –
Olathe December 12, 2003
All the changes I made today are reflected in the ongoing discussions above, most of the points have stood for over a month now. The exceptions are the following:
(though only for defensive purposes)
The claim that anarcho-capitalists will use military power only for defensive purposes is not a fact, it is an opinion based on their position. I do think the fact that they believe they would only use military power for defensive purposes should be stated in the text, but it must be clear that this is their assertion and not a fact, because many would view their proposed uses of power as offensive in nature.
(They also reject these forms of coercive control whether they are exercised by state officials or by private agents; they oppose them because they are violations of rights, not because they are committed by governments.)
This is simply not true. Anarcho-capitalists support the application of rent and enforcement of it by police forces, this is qualitatively identical in some instances (not all) to the practice of statist taxation. Similarly, many anarcho-capitalists believe that they would be justified in engaging in war for a number of reasons. Finally, the determination for what counts as "coercive" regulation and "coercive" monopoly is entirely subjective. These terms need to be define precisely, because many anarchists would view the existence of any monopoly coercive, rather than only those forms of monopoly that don't fit capitalist standards for rights.
For example, Spooner rejected wage labor, Tucker argued against usury and described his project as "voluntary socialism," and Stirner argued against the very application of property. Anarcho-capitalists, on the other hand, emphasize the individualists' critique of collectivist politics, and point out that the individualists denounced the use of violence to oppose the economic relationships that they considered exploitative.
I didn't remove this passage, but I would like to point out that it is problematic. As it stands, the argument of the anarcho-capitalist is left without response, adding such a response will inevitably lead to another anarcho-capitalist response, and the whole thing will drag out in the middle of the article. It may be best to remove this passage and just leave it as this: Anarcho-capitalists typically claim them as intellectual forbearers; anti-capitalist anarchists often argue against the claim by noting that each of these individuals rejected essential aspects of the modern capitalist marketplace.
I also removed the last part of the last sentence which refered to voluntary transactions and free markets, as these terms were used to mean explicitly different things by anarcho-capitalists and individualist anarchists, thus equating the two traditions in this context is misleading to the point of bordering on dishonesty.
All the other edits have already been discussed above and stood without further challenge for some time. - Kevin 02/09/04
Anyone who's visited the Infoshop.org FAQ on syndicate anarchism will know, syndicate anarchists prefer to debate by droning on and on, restating the same things over and over again, and including unnecessarily long quotes. They also like to try to confuse the reader by not clearly explaining what they're talking about.
Syndicate anarchists think that they can win a debate by out-talking their opponents, but any outside observers see this as simply bullying.
To clear up a few points of dispute, and make a few suggestions. You should consider mentioning Murray N. Rothbard and David Friedman (*not* Milton Friedman) when discussing anarcho-capitalists.
If it's just a matter of 'mentioning,' you could well mention MILTON Friedman, too. For many anarcho-caps, he played a role in the formation of their views, however much that fact may dismay him. That isn't limited to his son's case.
Morally, the anarcho-capitalist must adhere to the non-aggression axiom, which is something that you should mention in your discussion of them (the non-aggression axiom states that the only things which should be preventable by force are the initiation of violence against a person or his propety). Thus, the anarcho-capitalist cannot possibly support an offensive war. Granted, certain private individuals in an anarcho-capitalistic society could engage in offensive warfare. However, anarcho-capitalists would see the violent opposition to this as justified, though not the socialization of a response.
The link to panarchism is well-put. It follows from the non-aggression axiom that anarcho-capitalists would permit any set of individuals to live in their own societal arrangement, so long as they do not aggress against the anarcho-capitalists. That means anarcho socialists could live in Ingsoc right next to ancapville.
First of all, I pulled the neutrality header. It's been there for months, surviving long periods of inactivity, and at this point after all that's been hashed out serves no purpose.
Furthermore, I made more edits,
undoing some anti-ancap wording and deletion, but mostly doing things long talked about. E.g., I've restored a version of the "synthesis" claim, giving it a Radgeekian formulation, following his (and my) argument that it is a fairly indisputable claim;
I've left in the redundant "discards" caveat just to be sure. Another area worthy of comment is in the "monopoly" section: I removed this other argument because so far as I know it is not "[o]ne of the most common criticisms...", but rather a criticism from a specific viewpoint. -- V V 14:34, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I believe the synthesis claim is NPOV, and have not heard an argument otherwise. I will not stand for you reverting everything I write. Your criticism may be common in (left-)anarchist literature, but that does not mean it is common. The other criticism is one common among minarchists/libertarians/common guy/etc. As for removing the individualist criticism, that is because this is not an article about what ind-an's think, and insofar as this is the case the sentence is redundant, as the difference is already noted in the previous sentence. This view can be explained in an article on this subject. Maybe you can tell me why you erased the opposition to private violence, not merely state violence, which clarifies the ancap philosophy. -- V V 22:15, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You are not paying attention to what I said, given your gross misinterpretation above, so I don't know why I bother. Do not simply revert everything I do.
The counterargument you provided is a separate one, and should be seen as such. Ancaps do oppose violence; conceding it is sometimes necessary for defense does not change that.
Their views on these matters are explained already in the article. The analogy I made was the wording you so treasured as to insta-revert every rewrite where the anarchy page says anarchists oppose coercive control, when arguably they do not, depending on what you think of coercion.
But to say that misses the point I've made a hundred times. I am aware of your discussion with Radgeek, you did not refute the synthesis claim,
which has the advantage of not making the causal assumption you scream so screechingly about. -- V V 21:53, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
VeryVerily should be ashamed of himself for starting edit wars like this. It is clear to me, as a neutral observer, that Kevehs is absolutely right and VeryVerily is acting just abysmally. --
Richardchilton 20:59, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
V V I am continuing to restore my edits. Kev claims falsely they are simply reverts of his work,
but in fact of the seven changes I made, only two were reverts to old versions,
in one case the restoration of deleted useful text
(the other the word state -> government). Kev did the same to my work on the anarchism page,
and it took another user intervening (working with my text)
to stop his repeated destruction of my proposed more neutral intro.
He continues to incorrectly characterize himself as working hard and me as merely reverting
and seemingly is "counting" my reverts, even though he's had four per day (in violation of the three-per-day guideline) two days in a row: [1] [2] [3] [4] (yes, one letter uncapitalized, that's as much of a non-revert it is), and similarly before.
It is clear it is not possible to work with him; I have been trying different wording [5] (edits at bottom not mine) [6] [7], but he just reverts everything. So, I have no choice but to revert to my version.
V V Also, for people who don't know, Richardchilton above is almost certainly a sock puppet for HectorRodriguez and Lancemurdoch, who has a well-known agenda against me. -- V V 22:02, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I highly reccomend this page. Sam Spade 03:29, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I feel I've been doing all I can. I left this article alone for a long time when other users were on it, and came back and found he had put his same-old biases into it, presumably outlasting the other users' patience. I keep offering wording to address Kev's concerns, but he just reverts and tells me what I'm putting in is "propaganda" (he clearly does not AssumeGoodFaith), and I'm really starting to lose patience. He consistently misrepresents the edit history, and it's pretty clear at this point he has a personal bias to push: oddly, he seems to despise anarcho-capitalism, but is obsessed with editing the page about it to his liking (presumably to discredit it). I'm fairly neutral on the politics, yet he claims I have an agenda. And he attacks me and my motives personally repeatedly. How do you deal with someone like that? As a measure, I've been restricting myself to the three reverts per day; that has meant in practice he reverts four times and it sits thus until the next day. -- V V 06:06, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Kevehs, VeryVerily, please knock off the revert war. Please discuss your major points of disagreement in the talk page. -- Infrogmation 17:03, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
VV is clearly holding some kind of personal grudge here. He REFUSES to address the issues, and instead only comes to this talk page now in an attempt to further discredit me. The page history demonstrates that after months of discussion my edits remained unchallenged for 20 days. VV then returned and reverted most of those edits, while editing a few, without addressing any of my concerns. After a series of reverts on both our parts I tried a complete edit once more (as I have done many times in the past). VV kept a small number of these edits (he has stated they are temporary) and reverted all the rest without ANY discussion or a single edit on his part. Because all of my edits have already been introduced on the talk page and are standing objections that he refuses to attempt to address, I feel that his reverting/deleting of most of them without even attempting to modify the text or talk about the issue is totally uncalled for, so I reverted it back. He then goes ape and accuses me of reverting this page even as he subsequently reverts it himself several times. I'm begining to think this page it going to have to be locked if things continue like this, but I'm afraid he will just come back and continue his personal crusade against what he calls "bad edits" the moment the lock is over. Kev 17:14, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
As I said above, I will cease to revert or edit this page for another week in order to facilitate discussion. I have done this two times before, I hope this time it does some good. I implore you VV, please discuss these issues this time. You can say whatever you want about me, but you KNOW that I've always been open to further discussion, that I've always replied to any point you have brought up, and that many times I have put some or all of my edits on hold pending resolution of these issues. All I want is for this page to accurately represent the theories it is contrasted with, and that requires neutral language throughout. PLEASE make good use of this time, do not merely use it to reinstate your edits again. Kev 17:23, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think you guys need mediation. Just my 2 cents. Sam Spade 02:51, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
If this article is ever unfrozen, I submit that it might benefit by a discussion of the means/end question. How do anarcho-caps propose that their system be implemented? Do they vote or otherwise contribute to political campaigns in the here and now to try to elect the least restrictive govt., or do they consider any such participation a form of selling out? If they don't vote, what DO they do to try to move the world closer to their heart's desire? Look for uninhabited islands?
You are AMAZING VV. I volunteer not to edit the page, pleading with you once again to take this opportunity to discuss this. The page is then protected to prevent a continued revert war. And what is the FIRST thing you do when it is unprotected? Did you even ATTEMPT discussion in the mean time? Do you even try to edit the page?
No, and no. All you do is revert it the first opportunity you get. Well I said I would wait a week, but since it was protected after I said that I will give you another week. I will ask you AGAIN, for the fourth time now, to work through this issues and stop with the reverts. I implore you, AGAIN, to use this opportunity and not squander it. Kev 04:21, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I just got done looking at the last version of the article that Kev posted, and the differences that it had with respect to VV's edit. And I was wondering if I was the only one who thought the most differences between the two were almost insignificant? They amounted to nothing more than how forcefully one stated the opinion of the anarcho-capitalists. Maybe it would be better for all if we made it clear when something being stated in the article is only the opinion of the anarcho-capitalists.
For instance, one place that I agree with Kev is his change to the paragraph:
VV's version:
Kev's version:
Who say's that anarcho-capitalism is a version of anarchism? IMO that's nothing more than the POV of the anarcho-capitalist, since the libertarian socialist believes anarchism to be more than just a society without a state-government. So it should be clear in the paragraph, that this is only what the anarcho-capitalists believe.
I don't like how Kev removed the last sentance completely, but in its current state, it also is not a NPOV. Maybe we can change it so that it is more neutral:
I can't see why anyone would object to pointing out that these things are the opinion of the anarcho-capitalist, unless someone were simply trying to turn this wikipedia article into a propaganda campain for anarcho-capitalism. millerc 20:45, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It should though be noted that anarcho-capitalism is pretty much an American social phenomenon. It has little to no support on a sizable level in Europe or elsewhere. This is not a value judgement of the philosophy but I beleive it to be true. It would be helpful to the page to list such a fact.- GrazingshipIV 20:51, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)
That was not my suggestion. The beleif system of anarcho-capitalism is authentically American. Such groups have little to no popular support and social/political existence outside America. This is not a bad or good fact but it is true. It is distinctly American. I am not saying anarcho-capitalists do not exist abroad just not enough to have relevance to the social and political processes of their respective native land. There are real and powerful organizations in the U.S.A that have anarcho-capitalism as a platform or call themselves as such and they play a significant role in American politics. This is not true elsewhere which is why I think it bears noting in this article.-- GrazingshipIV 01:28, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
Dude no problem, What I was refering to was the power of anarcho-capitalist ideals in America as opposed to the rest of the world which henceforth leads to organizations to play to those ideals. Even though many politicans in America are not anarcho-capitalists in action (by a long shot) they play to the ideals of anarch-capitalism often. Ronald Regan is a well-known but weak example (he also was very smpathetic to Ayn Rand objectivism) for making "government the enemy" by claiming it was the greatest threat to average americans. Ron Paul a congressman from texas, also being a strong example as he supports many anarch-capitalist ideals (abolishing the central bank and public education etc.). There are also many powerful organizations that back anarcho-capitalist ideals such as the CATO institute (although used by conservatives and claiming to be libertarian- many scholars are anarch-capitalists), The US Libertarian party (which adopts anarcho-capitalists the way democrats adopt leftists) as well as a myriad of other lobbying and think tanks groups who put pressure on the government to pursue policies that anarch-capitalists would. This phenomenon does not really exist anywhere else in the world, if it would be anywhere it would be Europe but many europeans "vote with their feet" and move to America (particularly from England) to join anarcho-capitalist movements rather than work on creating them were they are (one might call this voter outsourcing). Eitherway America is the place to be if you are an anarcho-capitalist which is why anarcho-capitalism has geographical limitations. GrazingshipIV 02:27, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)
I am forced to take Krause's point of "geographic concentration" as fair as well as the critique of my examples. But I would respond to say that many people in the libertarian party would call themselves "anarcho-capitalists" and many people who work on projects do not see much of a difference between libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism. Take the free state project (freestateproject.org) this is run primarily by anarcho-capitalists but named a libertarian project. It involved a mass movement of people who want to establish a state that at least is anarch-capitalistic. I do not think that because people are working through the governmental system they are nesasarily disqualified from being called anarchists. My underlying point is that the only real significant place where anarcho-capitalism has a foot to stand on is America. GrazingshipIV 05:36, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)
You are correct I do not draw that distinction. I do not propose an alteration to the page but rather an addition. I think a "Geographic contrection" section to the page would be appropriate but I would like some sort of consensus before making the edit. This new section would merely note the fact that anarcho-capitalism in today's politics is mostly an American phenomenon with little influence in Europe and virtually none elsewhere. GrazingshipIV 16:13, Mar 29, 2004 (UTC)
I do not know that much about politics in other countries, but I just looked it up and saw that there is a party called, "Anarkokapitalistisk Front (AKF)" in the Sweden that is basically the same as our Libertarian Party, in both ideas espoused and power. As well, I found "The Libertarian Alliance" in the UK, which is not a political party, and a few other things. I found a lot more stuff in the US and Canada (Canada has the Libertarian Party of Canada), but perhaps that is because I know how to search for stuff in the US and Canada better better...-- Thorn969 06:05, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No apology nesesary just make sure you create this break so people don't get confused. thanks. GrazingshipIV 02:11, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)
Sorry for placing this at the bottom of the page since it belongs with the thread right above this one, but I wanted to ensure feedback. As a comprimise to what I have stated above in the Some thoughts on the revert war section, I think it would be best to go with Kev's version, of the initial sentance to make it clear that this is the POV of the anarcho-capitalists, but I would leave the second sentance alone, as was deemed appropriate by NYK. So the paragraph will be changed to:
I hope this compromise is sutable to all who were involved in the previous discussions. If anyone has any problems they should speak out about it now, before I place the new paragraph into the article. millerc 01:59, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I move that the conflict be declared over for this page and that disputed neutrality header be removed. Are there any objections? -- Thorn969 07:56, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
VV insists that this is a compromise that betters the page, he changed this: Thus, anarcho-capitalists hold their position to be a form anarchism in the sense that it rejects the state.
to this Thus, anarcho-capitalists hold their position to be a form of anarchism: a rejection of the state.
I'm wondering why a version that implies a stripped down definition of anarchism is considered better? Certainly anarchism is thought by meany to mean merely the rejection of the state, but it often means -more- than this, so making it clear that anarcho-capitalists consider themselves anarchists -only- insofar as they reject the state is to better describe the capitalist position. It certainly doesn't water down anything, it only clarifies the ac position. How is this offensive to you VV? Or perhaps there is something more than the edit itself you are objecting to, like how you recently objected to a nomination based not on the person who is being nominated or their merits, but based on the person who nominated them. Kev 00:24, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
I think this - Anarcho-capitalism is a view which is best described by the saying "other people are not your property". - is a very inadequate definition. Besides the slogan being uninformative, it implies that ancapism is the "only" view in which people are not property, which is nuts. V V 09:08, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I noticed that the article makes no mention of IP (patent, copyright, or trademark). The anarcho-caps who I have spoken with do not consider IP to be legit. However, I'm not familiar with the ideas of big-shot theorists. I think that this is important since the article (incorrectly) implies that anarcho-caps approve of all types of property. IP is a big deal these days, and clarifying the anarcho-cap position on IP is important. I suspect that this would be best in the "justifications of property" section (Natural law vs. utilitarian), but I did not read the article carefully, so I can't really say. AdamRetchless 19:40, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone else want to take this? An anonymous user keeps putting in dubious edits, and I've tried to accommodate them by adapting some, but then s/he keeps putting in more, and I'm tiring of the process. I'm not even very sympathetic to anarcho-capitalism (I just want it fairly portrayed); maybe someone who is would be more motivated to defend this page. There seem to be three separate issues, the first being whether anarcho-capitalists should be called anarchists; but this is discussed in the intro already, perhaps too much. The second, more complex issue is the anon adding in words such as that ancaps favor "supposed free markets" and "ostensibly voluntary contracts", to imply that free markets are not what they are always defined as, and so on. As part of this he argues defense of one's property is aggression and therefore it cannot be considered a "negative right". This seems to me like an anti-property POV, since that is not the usual meaning. The third, related to the second, pertains to the claim that there is no history of ancap violence to impose their view, which is true (there have been so such violent revolutions attempted), but is denied by the anon since these people might have used violence to defend their property, which thus is to "impose their view". These counterclaims are problematic because (a) just about any system, even worker-owned farming, allows for self-defense of (perhaps collective) property; (b) defending one's property in a non-ideal world does not mean trying to impose a different system. Maybe this is a bad summary, but hopefully it communicates the gist. -- VV 11:45, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
2. I'm willing to add "(in the sense of free from state interference)" to the "free market" phrase, but that term is an important one used by capitalists and should be noted.
For the other points, your additions are generally redundant attempts to repeatedly negatively portray the view.
What's wrong with "They consider capitalist corporations based on voluntary contracts as a legitimate..."? Does this really need to be "ostensibly voluntary", or "They consider capitalist what they consider corporations based on ostensibly voluntary what they consider contracts as a what they consider legitimate..."? This is all what they consider the case.
Finally, considering security in one's possessions a "negative right" is not inconsistent with the existence of conflicts in property claims, just as belief that murderers should be imprisoned is not inconsistent with disputes over who committed a certain murder.
3. I've never heard of ASC, but the distinction remains. A history of violence to impose their view refers to bombing city hall or some such to bring about an ancap order.
If one uses violence to subdue a car thief, one is probably doing it to keep one's car, not as part of a long-term goal to bring about an ancap order through enforcing the property rights that would exist in such an order, especially since those rights already exist in the current legal order. Under your interpretation, we could go around Wikipedia adding phrases like "Greenpeace activists have a long history of violence" (one even beat up a burglar!).
4. Interpretations of the American Revolution vary enormously; stating yours as fact is clearly wrong.
Anyway, I will make another series of edits to try to adapt these ideas (including the puzzling objection to the synthesis claim). -- VV 00:05, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The article is about a point-of-view. Of course it's going to contain things that others disagree with. To avoid a POV problem, the anarcho-capitalism article should clearly label anarcho-capitalism as a viewpoint. The article should explain the viewpoint and leave contradictory viewpoints or other disagreements to the reader's intelligence or a separate section in the article. It is stupid to have an article that can't say anything about a viewpoint without being overladen with contradictory adjectives or phrases and it insults the reader's intelligence. –
Olathe December 12, 2003
All the changes I made today are reflected in the ongoing discussions above, most of the points have stood for over a month now. The exceptions are the following:
(though only for defensive purposes)
The claim that anarcho-capitalists will use military power only for defensive purposes is not a fact, it is an opinion based on their position. I do think the fact that they believe they would only use military power for defensive purposes should be stated in the text, but it must be clear that this is their assertion and not a fact, because many would view their proposed uses of power as offensive in nature.
(They also reject these forms of coercive control whether they are exercised by state officials or by private agents; they oppose them because they are violations of rights, not because they are committed by governments.)
This is simply not true. Anarcho-capitalists support the application of rent and enforcement of it by police forces, this is qualitatively identical in some instances (not all) to the practice of statist taxation. Similarly, many anarcho-capitalists believe that they would be justified in engaging in war for a number of reasons. Finally, the determination for what counts as "coercive" regulation and "coercive" monopoly is entirely subjective. These terms need to be define precisely, because many anarchists would view the existence of any monopoly coercive, rather than only those forms of monopoly that don't fit capitalist standards for rights.
For example, Spooner rejected wage labor, Tucker argued against usury and described his project as "voluntary socialism," and Stirner argued against the very application of property. Anarcho-capitalists, on the other hand, emphasize the individualists' critique of collectivist politics, and point out that the individualists denounced the use of violence to oppose the economic relationships that they considered exploitative.
I didn't remove this passage, but I would like to point out that it is problematic. As it stands, the argument of the anarcho-capitalist is left without response, adding such a response will inevitably lead to another anarcho-capitalist response, and the whole thing will drag out in the middle of the article. It may be best to remove this passage and just leave it as this: Anarcho-capitalists typically claim them as intellectual forbearers; anti-capitalist anarchists often argue against the claim by noting that each of these individuals rejected essential aspects of the modern capitalist marketplace.
I also removed the last part of the last sentence which refered to voluntary transactions and free markets, as these terms were used to mean explicitly different things by anarcho-capitalists and individualist anarchists, thus equating the two traditions in this context is misleading to the point of bordering on dishonesty.
All the other edits have already been discussed above and stood without further challenge for some time. - Kevin 02/09/04
Anyone who's visited the Infoshop.org FAQ on syndicate anarchism will know, syndicate anarchists prefer to debate by droning on and on, restating the same things over and over again, and including unnecessarily long quotes. They also like to try to confuse the reader by not clearly explaining what they're talking about.
Syndicate anarchists think that they can win a debate by out-talking their opponents, but any outside observers see this as simply bullying.
To clear up a few points of dispute, and make a few suggestions. You should consider mentioning Murray N. Rothbard and David Friedman (*not* Milton Friedman) when discussing anarcho-capitalists.
If it's just a matter of 'mentioning,' you could well mention MILTON Friedman, too. For many anarcho-caps, he played a role in the formation of their views, however much that fact may dismay him. That isn't limited to his son's case.
Morally, the anarcho-capitalist must adhere to the non-aggression axiom, which is something that you should mention in your discussion of them (the non-aggression axiom states that the only things which should be preventable by force are the initiation of violence against a person or his propety). Thus, the anarcho-capitalist cannot possibly support an offensive war. Granted, certain private individuals in an anarcho-capitalistic society could engage in offensive warfare. However, anarcho-capitalists would see the violent opposition to this as justified, though not the socialization of a response.
The link to panarchism is well-put. It follows from the non-aggression axiom that anarcho-capitalists would permit any set of individuals to live in their own societal arrangement, so long as they do not aggress against the anarcho-capitalists. That means anarcho socialists could live in Ingsoc right next to ancapville.
First of all, I pulled the neutrality header. It's been there for months, surviving long periods of inactivity, and at this point after all that's been hashed out serves no purpose.
Furthermore, I made more edits,
undoing some anti-ancap wording and deletion, but mostly doing things long talked about. E.g., I've restored a version of the "synthesis" claim, giving it a Radgeekian formulation, following his (and my) argument that it is a fairly indisputable claim;
I've left in the redundant "discards" caveat just to be sure. Another area worthy of comment is in the "monopoly" section: I removed this other argument because so far as I know it is not "[o]ne of the most common criticisms...", but rather a criticism from a specific viewpoint. -- V V 14:34, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I believe the synthesis claim is NPOV, and have not heard an argument otherwise. I will not stand for you reverting everything I write. Your criticism may be common in (left-)anarchist literature, but that does not mean it is common. The other criticism is one common among minarchists/libertarians/common guy/etc. As for removing the individualist criticism, that is because this is not an article about what ind-an's think, and insofar as this is the case the sentence is redundant, as the difference is already noted in the previous sentence. This view can be explained in an article on this subject. Maybe you can tell me why you erased the opposition to private violence, not merely state violence, which clarifies the ancap philosophy. -- V V 22:15, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You are not paying attention to what I said, given your gross misinterpretation above, so I don't know why I bother. Do not simply revert everything I do.
The counterargument you provided is a separate one, and should be seen as such. Ancaps do oppose violence; conceding it is sometimes necessary for defense does not change that.
Their views on these matters are explained already in the article. The analogy I made was the wording you so treasured as to insta-revert every rewrite where the anarchy page says anarchists oppose coercive control, when arguably they do not, depending on what you think of coercion.
But to say that misses the point I've made a hundred times. I am aware of your discussion with Radgeek, you did not refute the synthesis claim,
which has the advantage of not making the causal assumption you scream so screechingly about. -- V V 21:53, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
VeryVerily should be ashamed of himself for starting edit wars like this. It is clear to me, as a neutral observer, that Kevehs is absolutely right and VeryVerily is acting just abysmally. --
Richardchilton 20:59, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
V V I am continuing to restore my edits. Kev claims falsely they are simply reverts of his work,
but in fact of the seven changes I made, only two were reverts to old versions,
in one case the restoration of deleted useful text
(the other the word state -> government). Kev did the same to my work on the anarchism page,
and it took another user intervening (working with my text)
to stop his repeated destruction of my proposed more neutral intro.
He continues to incorrectly characterize himself as working hard and me as merely reverting
and seemingly is "counting" my reverts, even though he's had four per day (in violation of the three-per-day guideline) two days in a row: [1] [2] [3] [4] (yes, one letter uncapitalized, that's as much of a non-revert it is), and similarly before.
It is clear it is not possible to work with him; I have been trying different wording [5] (edits at bottom not mine) [6] [7], but he just reverts everything. So, I have no choice but to revert to my version.
V V Also, for people who don't know, Richardchilton above is almost certainly a sock puppet for HectorRodriguez and Lancemurdoch, who has a well-known agenda against me. -- V V 22:02, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I highly reccomend this page. Sam Spade 03:29, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I feel I've been doing all I can. I left this article alone for a long time when other users were on it, and came back and found he had put his same-old biases into it, presumably outlasting the other users' patience. I keep offering wording to address Kev's concerns, but he just reverts and tells me what I'm putting in is "propaganda" (he clearly does not AssumeGoodFaith), and I'm really starting to lose patience. He consistently misrepresents the edit history, and it's pretty clear at this point he has a personal bias to push: oddly, he seems to despise anarcho-capitalism, but is obsessed with editing the page about it to his liking (presumably to discredit it). I'm fairly neutral on the politics, yet he claims I have an agenda. And he attacks me and my motives personally repeatedly. How do you deal with someone like that? As a measure, I've been restricting myself to the three reverts per day; that has meant in practice he reverts four times and it sits thus until the next day. -- V V 06:06, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Kevehs, VeryVerily, please knock off the revert war. Please discuss your major points of disagreement in the talk page. -- Infrogmation 17:03, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
VV is clearly holding some kind of personal grudge here. He REFUSES to address the issues, and instead only comes to this talk page now in an attempt to further discredit me. The page history demonstrates that after months of discussion my edits remained unchallenged for 20 days. VV then returned and reverted most of those edits, while editing a few, without addressing any of my concerns. After a series of reverts on both our parts I tried a complete edit once more (as I have done many times in the past). VV kept a small number of these edits (he has stated they are temporary) and reverted all the rest without ANY discussion or a single edit on his part. Because all of my edits have already been introduced on the talk page and are standing objections that he refuses to attempt to address, I feel that his reverting/deleting of most of them without even attempting to modify the text or talk about the issue is totally uncalled for, so I reverted it back. He then goes ape and accuses me of reverting this page even as he subsequently reverts it himself several times. I'm begining to think this page it going to have to be locked if things continue like this, but I'm afraid he will just come back and continue his personal crusade against what he calls "bad edits" the moment the lock is over. Kev 17:14, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
As I said above, I will cease to revert or edit this page for another week in order to facilitate discussion. I have done this two times before, I hope this time it does some good. I implore you VV, please discuss these issues this time. You can say whatever you want about me, but you KNOW that I've always been open to further discussion, that I've always replied to any point you have brought up, and that many times I have put some or all of my edits on hold pending resolution of these issues. All I want is for this page to accurately represent the theories it is contrasted with, and that requires neutral language throughout. PLEASE make good use of this time, do not merely use it to reinstate your edits again. Kev 17:23, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think you guys need mediation. Just my 2 cents. Sam Spade 02:51, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
If this article is ever unfrozen, I submit that it might benefit by a discussion of the means/end question. How do anarcho-caps propose that their system be implemented? Do they vote or otherwise contribute to political campaigns in the here and now to try to elect the least restrictive govt., or do they consider any such participation a form of selling out? If they don't vote, what DO they do to try to move the world closer to their heart's desire? Look for uninhabited islands?
You are AMAZING VV. I volunteer not to edit the page, pleading with you once again to take this opportunity to discuss this. The page is then protected to prevent a continued revert war. And what is the FIRST thing you do when it is unprotected? Did you even ATTEMPT discussion in the mean time? Do you even try to edit the page?
No, and no. All you do is revert it the first opportunity you get. Well I said I would wait a week, but since it was protected after I said that I will give you another week. I will ask you AGAIN, for the fourth time now, to work through this issues and stop with the reverts. I implore you, AGAIN, to use this opportunity and not squander it. Kev 04:21, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I just got done looking at the last version of the article that Kev posted, and the differences that it had with respect to VV's edit. And I was wondering if I was the only one who thought the most differences between the two were almost insignificant? They amounted to nothing more than how forcefully one stated the opinion of the anarcho-capitalists. Maybe it would be better for all if we made it clear when something being stated in the article is only the opinion of the anarcho-capitalists.
For instance, one place that I agree with Kev is his change to the paragraph:
VV's version:
Kev's version:
Who say's that anarcho-capitalism is a version of anarchism? IMO that's nothing more than the POV of the anarcho-capitalist, since the libertarian socialist believes anarchism to be more than just a society without a state-government. So it should be clear in the paragraph, that this is only what the anarcho-capitalists believe.
I don't like how Kev removed the last sentance completely, but in its current state, it also is not a NPOV. Maybe we can change it so that it is more neutral:
I can't see why anyone would object to pointing out that these things are the opinion of the anarcho-capitalist, unless someone were simply trying to turn this wikipedia article into a propaganda campain for anarcho-capitalism. millerc 20:45, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It should though be noted that anarcho-capitalism is pretty much an American social phenomenon. It has little to no support on a sizable level in Europe or elsewhere. This is not a value judgement of the philosophy but I beleive it to be true. It would be helpful to the page to list such a fact.- GrazingshipIV 20:51, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)
That was not my suggestion. The beleif system of anarcho-capitalism is authentically American. Such groups have little to no popular support and social/political existence outside America. This is not a bad or good fact but it is true. It is distinctly American. I am not saying anarcho-capitalists do not exist abroad just not enough to have relevance to the social and political processes of their respective native land. There are real and powerful organizations in the U.S.A that have anarcho-capitalism as a platform or call themselves as such and they play a significant role in American politics. This is not true elsewhere which is why I think it bears noting in this article.-- GrazingshipIV 01:28, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
Dude no problem, What I was refering to was the power of anarcho-capitalist ideals in America as opposed to the rest of the world which henceforth leads to organizations to play to those ideals. Even though many politicans in America are not anarcho-capitalists in action (by a long shot) they play to the ideals of anarch-capitalism often. Ronald Regan is a well-known but weak example (he also was very smpathetic to Ayn Rand objectivism) for making "government the enemy" by claiming it was the greatest threat to average americans. Ron Paul a congressman from texas, also being a strong example as he supports many anarch-capitalist ideals (abolishing the central bank and public education etc.). There are also many powerful organizations that back anarcho-capitalist ideals such as the CATO institute (although used by conservatives and claiming to be libertarian- many scholars are anarch-capitalists), The US Libertarian party (which adopts anarcho-capitalists the way democrats adopt leftists) as well as a myriad of other lobbying and think tanks groups who put pressure on the government to pursue policies that anarch-capitalists would. This phenomenon does not really exist anywhere else in the world, if it would be anywhere it would be Europe but many europeans "vote with their feet" and move to America (particularly from England) to join anarcho-capitalist movements rather than work on creating them were they are (one might call this voter outsourcing). Eitherway America is the place to be if you are an anarcho-capitalist which is why anarcho-capitalism has geographical limitations. GrazingshipIV 02:27, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)
I am forced to take Krause's point of "geographic concentration" as fair as well as the critique of my examples. But I would respond to say that many people in the libertarian party would call themselves "anarcho-capitalists" and many people who work on projects do not see much of a difference between libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism. Take the free state project (freestateproject.org) this is run primarily by anarcho-capitalists but named a libertarian project. It involved a mass movement of people who want to establish a state that at least is anarch-capitalistic. I do not think that because people are working through the governmental system they are nesasarily disqualified from being called anarchists. My underlying point is that the only real significant place where anarcho-capitalism has a foot to stand on is America. GrazingshipIV 05:36, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)
You are correct I do not draw that distinction. I do not propose an alteration to the page but rather an addition. I think a "Geographic contrection" section to the page would be appropriate but I would like some sort of consensus before making the edit. This new section would merely note the fact that anarcho-capitalism in today's politics is mostly an American phenomenon with little influence in Europe and virtually none elsewhere. GrazingshipIV 16:13, Mar 29, 2004 (UTC)
I do not know that much about politics in other countries, but I just looked it up and saw that there is a party called, "Anarkokapitalistisk Front (AKF)" in the Sweden that is basically the same as our Libertarian Party, in both ideas espoused and power. As well, I found "The Libertarian Alliance" in the UK, which is not a political party, and a few other things. I found a lot more stuff in the US and Canada (Canada has the Libertarian Party of Canada), but perhaps that is because I know how to search for stuff in the US and Canada better better...-- Thorn969 06:05, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No apology nesesary just make sure you create this break so people don't get confused. thanks. GrazingshipIV 02:11, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)
Sorry for placing this at the bottom of the page since it belongs with the thread right above this one, but I wanted to ensure feedback. As a comprimise to what I have stated above in the Some thoughts on the revert war section, I think it would be best to go with Kev's version, of the initial sentance to make it clear that this is the POV of the anarcho-capitalists, but I would leave the second sentance alone, as was deemed appropriate by NYK. So the paragraph will be changed to:
I hope this compromise is sutable to all who were involved in the previous discussions. If anyone has any problems they should speak out about it now, before I place the new paragraph into the article. millerc 01:59, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I move that the conflict be declared over for this page and that disputed neutrality header be removed. Are there any objections? -- Thorn969 07:56, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
VV insists that this is a compromise that betters the page, he changed this: Thus, anarcho-capitalists hold their position to be a form anarchism in the sense that it rejects the state.
to this Thus, anarcho-capitalists hold their position to be a form of anarchism: a rejection of the state.
I'm wondering why a version that implies a stripped down definition of anarchism is considered better? Certainly anarchism is thought by meany to mean merely the rejection of the state, but it often means -more- than this, so making it clear that anarcho-capitalists consider themselves anarchists -only- insofar as they reject the state is to better describe the capitalist position. It certainly doesn't water down anything, it only clarifies the ac position. How is this offensive to you VV? Or perhaps there is something more than the edit itself you are objecting to, like how you recently objected to a nomination based not on the person who is being nominated or their merits, but based on the person who nominated them. Kev 00:24, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
I think this - Anarcho-capitalism is a view which is best described by the saying "other people are not your property". - is a very inadequate definition. Besides the slogan being uninformative, it implies that ancapism is the "only" view in which people are not property, which is nuts. V V 09:08, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)