This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
Folks - I've been going over the article section by section for the last week. I'm going to do a major re-write, section by section. I've removed most of what the consensus has seen as NPOV issues with the article. In addition, I've also removed several citations as per WP:CITEKILL. Any unbalance in the article I've attempted to remedy by adding opposing viewpoints, if I could find a cite, or if it was included in the existing citation but simply left out of the article. But if it was simply biased, or was WP:UNDUE, I removed it. I'm definitely open to any legitimate suggestions, and am not adverse to putting changes back with which those who have reached consensus. I look forward to your thoughts. Onel5969 TT me 04:43, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Your recent edits include section blanking of the "Transparency" and "Funding" sections, as well as content blanking of content summarizing the relationship between the subject of the article and the Koch brothers, which was not consolidated into its own section. Your content blanking included dozens of reliable sources for which you offered no alternative summarization. Your content blanking was not discussed. As you were reminded above, we are asked to discuss major changes if we anticipate they might be controversial. Your content blanking included content which was work-shopped collaboratively over the last four months by your fellow editors, see above. Your content blanking is blatantly pointed and non-conformant with WP:DUE. Your content blanking is squarely in the areas of the notability of the subject of this article, including the relationship of the subject of this article to the Koch brothers, the issue of the scope operations of the subject of this article with respect to its chosen non-profit, tax-exempt filing status, and the substantial investigative journalism regarding its funding. Your content blanking targets content summarizing the most prevalent coverage in reliable sources. Your content blanking is a serious embarrassment to our project as it leaves our article in a state grossly disproportionate to reliable sources. For example, you reduced all mention of the Kochs to the mere fact that one of the Kochs chairs the board of directors, a fact immediately obvious in commonly available public records such as is available at GuideStar and others. Your content blanking suggests a profound misunderstanding of WP:DUE. Mistaking WP:DUE as requiring a balance of content considered "flattering" vs. "unflattering" is a misconception not normally associated with experienced Wikipedians. Neutrality is non-negotiable. Neutrality is not trumped by consensus. Kindly self-revert your recent content blanking. Hugh ( talk) 14:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Do you see a pattern here? In every single instance of recent disputes and discussions on this talk page, you have not been on the side of the WP:CONSENSUS. There's also an emerging consensus visible not on the talk page but in the article's edit history. Many editors have reverted you. Many editors have brought up concerns about due weight and neutrality in their edit summaries. It really seems like you are not hearing your fellow collaborators. You've resorted to edit warring and you've been blocked multiple times for it. Despite this, I don't see you coming to the table with an attitude of humility and self-reflection. If you continue on this path, the community may ban you from articles related to American politics or they may sanction you in some other way. It's up to you if you want to avoid that. The fact that when you were recently blocked and a majority of your recent edits were reverted with no one disputing the reversions shows that your edits did not have WP:CONSENSUS on their side. You are the only editor fighting for the content you've added. Think about that. Champaign Supernova ( talk) 17:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Late to the party here. I dont have much to say towards the above that would be original. Ha! We've done this again and again. The page currently says there is a NPOV issue. Safe to assume only Hugh thinks that? I thought there was a NPOV and COATRACKING issue before the recent edits. DaltonCastle ( talk) 01:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
"It is here for you on the talk page." Where is the talk page discussion which you claim culminated in a consensus in support for your section blanking "Transparency" and "Funding"? Hugh ( talk) 02:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I understand consensus is very important to you. Section blanking is a major edit. Of course any editor with a strong commitment to consensus would seek consensus on section blanking. It should be a simple matter to direct readers of this talk page to the talk page discussion of section blanking "Transparency" and "Funding," where we all together collaboratively discussed how blanking these sections, and removing dozens of reliable sources, would be an improvement to the article, with all of your well-reasoned arguments detailed, with copious references to relevant policy and guidelines, signed with your signatures, because you are not hypocrites. Hugh ( talk) 12:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I feel that this has gotten caught up in arguments over specific text, so I've started a new section for it; we need to discuss the basic question of how much focus the article should give to the Koch Brothers' relationship with AFP. Plainly some people feel that it is a WP:NPOV violation to talk about it at all (since it seems to have been scoured from the article entirely in recent edits); but I feel that it's such a clearly major theme in almost all reliable coverage that it needs to be given similarly heavy weight in the article. A quick survey of the sources shows that it's almost always the first thing mentioned about the group:
...this was just me going down the list of sources; I stopped about a sixth of the way through because I figured this was more than enough, but I only had to skip a handful of sources while making that list, and even the ones I skipped almost always mentioned the Koch brothers. I don't think the sources in the article are unrepresentative, either; the fact that the Koch Brothers' support is the most noteworthy thing about AFP seems to be entirely uncontroversial and nearly-unanimous among reliable sources (frequently, 'Koch funded' or the like is the only description AFP gets, and often "Koch-funded group" comes first, before mentioning its name.) Many, many sources describe it as their direct political arm or as the centerpiece of their political network; that claim might be a bit more controversial (in the sense that we would want to use in-text attributions for it), but it is clearly noteworthy enough that the article needs to devote significant weight to it. These are mostly high-quality, high-profile sources, and as far as I can tell nobody has provided an actual argument for ignoring the heavy emphasis they place on the Koch Brothers' backing of AFP and its connection to their political network -- yes, there was a lot of unnecessary stuff in the article, but it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater; we can discuss exactly how to describe it, but I think it's clear that the connection to the Koch Brothers is central to most of AFP's coverage, core to how it's generally described by reliable sources, and therefore needs to be similarly core to this article. Other details about its funding or activities are relatively unimportant and can be trimmed, but omitting the Koch brothers entirely (or failing to mention them prominently in the lead) plainly violates WP:NPOV; our job is to cover AFP the way it is covered by reliable sources, which have clearly been near-unanimous in making the Koch brothers central to describing what AFP is. AFP and the Koch brothers might disagree or downplay it ( this link touches on that, and there's another denial here), but NPOV means covering a source according to the way reliable sources cover it, regardless; we can describe their objection, but giving the overwhelming unanimity of sources, we still have to make the fact that the organization is Koch-funded (and frequently described as part of their political network) central to the article. -- Aquillion ( talk) 14:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
This comment very clearly demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of our pillar of neutrality. This is a rookie misconception of WP:DUE not usually associated with experienced editors such as yourself. We sometimes find this type of misapplication of WP:DUE advanced by pointy editors. If you understand WP:DUE, and you are familiar with reliable sources on the subject of this article, and do not support the undiscussed section blanking of the "Funding" and "Transparency" sections, kindly clarify your position for all of us through your editorial actions by reverting the undiscussed section blanking of the "Funding" and "Transparency" sections. It's long overdue time for you to drop your scare quotes off "proportionately" and embrace your new, fuller understanding of our neutrality pillar through your edits. If you restore both sections in consecutive edits it counts as 1 revert toward your daily allowance. Thank you in advance for your support of our pillar of neutrality. Hugh ( talk) 16:31, 3 July 2015 (UTC)"I think that the edits of Onel5969 in regards to the "Funding" and "Transparency" sections specifically addressed the problem of wp:undue that we have been dealing with in the past few weeks. The sections were simply non-neutral, therefore the elimination of them has increased the neutrality of the article..."
Hugh ( talk) 08:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." - WP:DUE
Hugh ( talk) 16:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)Several major American companies also donated hundreds of thousands to the initial funding of the AFP Foundation, including $275,000 from State Farm Insurance and lesser amounts from 1-800 Contacts, medical products firm Johnson & Johnson, and carpet and flooring manufacturer Shaw Industries....North Carolina philanthropist Art Pope, a founding board member of AFP and a former AFP board chair, is the second largest institutional backer of the AFP Foundation. In 2010, the AFP Foundation received $1.35 million from the John William Pope Foundation, chaired by Pope, and AFP received half a million dollars from the Bradley Foundation. AFP received smaller grants in 2012 from tobacco company Reynolds American and in 2010 and 2012 from the American Petroleum Institute. The donor-advised fund Donors Trust granted $11 million to AFP between 2002 and 2010 and $7 million to the AFP Foundation in 2010.
Well, this recent edit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Americans_for_Prosperity&diff=668230876&oldid=668228803) brings up another issue. This is how it currently stands:
In the 2014 mid-term election cycle, AFP led all groups other than political action committees in spending on political television advertising. AFP's scope of operations has drawn comparisons to political parties. AFP, an educational social welfare organization, and the associated Americans for Prosperity Foundation, a public charity, are tax-exempt non-profits. The extent of AFP's political activities while operating as a tax-exempt entity has raised concerns among some campaign finance watchdogs and Democrats regarding the transparency of its funding.
How it previously stood:
In the 2014 mid-term election cycle, AFP led all groups other than political action committees in spending on political television advertising. AFP's scope of operations has drawn comparisons to political parties. AFP, an educational social welfare organization, and the associated Americans for Prosperity Foundation, a public charity, are tax-exempt non-profits. As a tax-exempt non-profit, AFP is not legally required to disclose its donors. The extent of AFP's political activities while operating as a tax-exempt entity has raised concerns among some campaign finance watchdogs and Democrats regarding the transparency of its funding.
I believe it should stand as either the original, or:
In the 2014 mid-term election cycle, AFP led all groups other than political action committees in spending on political television advertising. AFP's scope of operations has drawn comparisons to political parties. AFP, an educational social welfare organization, and the associated Americans for Prosperity Foundation, a public charity, are tax-exempt non-profits.
Should be one or the other. Either keep in both, or take out both. Because the way it stands now is POV. Its just a critique of AFP, when it legally does not have to disclose anything. DaltonCastle ( talk) 03:13, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Aquillion Perhaps the most audaciously pointed deletion in last week's stunning purge of highly reliable references from this article was the removal of Jane Mayer's "Covert Operations" report in the New Yorker.
Mayer, Jane (August 30, 2010).
"Covert Operations: The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama".
The New Yorker. Retrieved March 20, 2015. internal rivalries at Citizens for a Sound Economy caused the organization to split apart.
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
This report remains a touchstone in investigative journalism into the political activities of the Kochs, and so is a perennial favorite target of apologists. I welcome your engagement in this good article drive, but may I respectfully and humbly urge caution and talk page dialog in deleting content which appears unsupported by references at this point. So much noteworthy content has been deleted at this point that almost everything worth adding is a technically a reversion. Thank you again. Hugh ( talk) 21:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
This source is sufficiently important to neutral coverage of the subject of this article that it was referenced in support of seven items of content as recently as 22 June, please see version [19]. This source was deleted 23 June by user Onel5969 with an edit summary of "Return article to neutrality," along with several other reliable source references, as a small part of an undiscussed major purge of Koch-related content and references, see diff. So there is no doubt further damage to the article from the unilateral, undiscussed, pointed, careless content blanking yet to be discovered. Hugh ( talk) 22:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I removed the NPOV tag, since the issue was resolved prior to it being placed there. A single editor refusing to agree to consensus does not constitute lack of resolution. It merely highlights that editor's failure to understand or abide by consensus. I would ask that editor to self-revert, in order to show he understands consensus. And no, I won't be responding to any of that editor's post, since it is a waste of time, as exhibited by his NPOV tag. Onel5969 TT me 20:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
As this article's collaborative good article effort approached the completeness of coverage of reliable sources required by good article criteria, some editors began peppering the talk page with vague comments of the sense of "too much detail," "irrelevant," or "non-neutral." Many, many polite requests were made to get the talk page conversation started, by identifying a specific item of content of concern and the specific relevant policy or guideline, and these request were most often ignored.
This pattern of non-response is so widespread on this talk page that, were it not for our principle of assuming good faith, one might interpret this demonstrated reluctance to get down to specifics as a recognition that the non-prefered content was a neutral, noteworthy, reasonable paraphrase of reliable sources, and a recognition that policy and guideline did not support removal. Some of the same editors who declined to respond to polite reasonable requests for specifics instead embraced bold, undiscussed blanking of neutral, noteworthy content and reliable source references, and were among the most outspoken supporters of the misguided position that a local consensus may be used to override our pillar of neutrality. Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 16:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
Folks - I've been going over the article section by section for the last week. I'm going to do a major re-write, section by section. I've removed most of what the consensus has seen as NPOV issues with the article. In addition, I've also removed several citations as per WP:CITEKILL. Any unbalance in the article I've attempted to remedy by adding opposing viewpoints, if I could find a cite, or if it was included in the existing citation but simply left out of the article. But if it was simply biased, or was WP:UNDUE, I removed it. I'm definitely open to any legitimate suggestions, and am not adverse to putting changes back with which those who have reached consensus. I look forward to your thoughts. Onel5969 TT me 04:43, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Your recent edits include section blanking of the "Transparency" and "Funding" sections, as well as content blanking of content summarizing the relationship between the subject of the article and the Koch brothers, which was not consolidated into its own section. Your content blanking included dozens of reliable sources for which you offered no alternative summarization. Your content blanking was not discussed. As you were reminded above, we are asked to discuss major changes if we anticipate they might be controversial. Your content blanking included content which was work-shopped collaboratively over the last four months by your fellow editors, see above. Your content blanking is blatantly pointed and non-conformant with WP:DUE. Your content blanking is squarely in the areas of the notability of the subject of this article, including the relationship of the subject of this article to the Koch brothers, the issue of the scope operations of the subject of this article with respect to its chosen non-profit, tax-exempt filing status, and the substantial investigative journalism regarding its funding. Your content blanking targets content summarizing the most prevalent coverage in reliable sources. Your content blanking is a serious embarrassment to our project as it leaves our article in a state grossly disproportionate to reliable sources. For example, you reduced all mention of the Kochs to the mere fact that one of the Kochs chairs the board of directors, a fact immediately obvious in commonly available public records such as is available at GuideStar and others. Your content blanking suggests a profound misunderstanding of WP:DUE. Mistaking WP:DUE as requiring a balance of content considered "flattering" vs. "unflattering" is a misconception not normally associated with experienced Wikipedians. Neutrality is non-negotiable. Neutrality is not trumped by consensus. Kindly self-revert your recent content blanking. Hugh ( talk) 14:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Do you see a pattern here? In every single instance of recent disputes and discussions on this talk page, you have not been on the side of the WP:CONSENSUS. There's also an emerging consensus visible not on the talk page but in the article's edit history. Many editors have reverted you. Many editors have brought up concerns about due weight and neutrality in their edit summaries. It really seems like you are not hearing your fellow collaborators. You've resorted to edit warring and you've been blocked multiple times for it. Despite this, I don't see you coming to the table with an attitude of humility and self-reflection. If you continue on this path, the community may ban you from articles related to American politics or they may sanction you in some other way. It's up to you if you want to avoid that. The fact that when you were recently blocked and a majority of your recent edits were reverted with no one disputing the reversions shows that your edits did not have WP:CONSENSUS on their side. You are the only editor fighting for the content you've added. Think about that. Champaign Supernova ( talk) 17:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Late to the party here. I dont have much to say towards the above that would be original. Ha! We've done this again and again. The page currently says there is a NPOV issue. Safe to assume only Hugh thinks that? I thought there was a NPOV and COATRACKING issue before the recent edits. DaltonCastle ( talk) 01:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
"It is here for you on the talk page." Where is the talk page discussion which you claim culminated in a consensus in support for your section blanking "Transparency" and "Funding"? Hugh ( talk) 02:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I understand consensus is very important to you. Section blanking is a major edit. Of course any editor with a strong commitment to consensus would seek consensus on section blanking. It should be a simple matter to direct readers of this talk page to the talk page discussion of section blanking "Transparency" and "Funding," where we all together collaboratively discussed how blanking these sections, and removing dozens of reliable sources, would be an improvement to the article, with all of your well-reasoned arguments detailed, with copious references to relevant policy and guidelines, signed with your signatures, because you are not hypocrites. Hugh ( talk) 12:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I feel that this has gotten caught up in arguments over specific text, so I've started a new section for it; we need to discuss the basic question of how much focus the article should give to the Koch Brothers' relationship with AFP. Plainly some people feel that it is a WP:NPOV violation to talk about it at all (since it seems to have been scoured from the article entirely in recent edits); but I feel that it's such a clearly major theme in almost all reliable coverage that it needs to be given similarly heavy weight in the article. A quick survey of the sources shows that it's almost always the first thing mentioned about the group:
...this was just me going down the list of sources; I stopped about a sixth of the way through because I figured this was more than enough, but I only had to skip a handful of sources while making that list, and even the ones I skipped almost always mentioned the Koch brothers. I don't think the sources in the article are unrepresentative, either; the fact that the Koch Brothers' support is the most noteworthy thing about AFP seems to be entirely uncontroversial and nearly-unanimous among reliable sources (frequently, 'Koch funded' or the like is the only description AFP gets, and often "Koch-funded group" comes first, before mentioning its name.) Many, many sources describe it as their direct political arm or as the centerpiece of their political network; that claim might be a bit more controversial (in the sense that we would want to use in-text attributions for it), but it is clearly noteworthy enough that the article needs to devote significant weight to it. These are mostly high-quality, high-profile sources, and as far as I can tell nobody has provided an actual argument for ignoring the heavy emphasis they place on the Koch Brothers' backing of AFP and its connection to their political network -- yes, there was a lot of unnecessary stuff in the article, but it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater; we can discuss exactly how to describe it, but I think it's clear that the connection to the Koch Brothers is central to most of AFP's coverage, core to how it's generally described by reliable sources, and therefore needs to be similarly core to this article. Other details about its funding or activities are relatively unimportant and can be trimmed, but omitting the Koch brothers entirely (or failing to mention them prominently in the lead) plainly violates WP:NPOV; our job is to cover AFP the way it is covered by reliable sources, which have clearly been near-unanimous in making the Koch brothers central to describing what AFP is. AFP and the Koch brothers might disagree or downplay it ( this link touches on that, and there's another denial here), but NPOV means covering a source according to the way reliable sources cover it, regardless; we can describe their objection, but giving the overwhelming unanimity of sources, we still have to make the fact that the organization is Koch-funded (and frequently described as part of their political network) central to the article. -- Aquillion ( talk) 14:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
This comment very clearly demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of our pillar of neutrality. This is a rookie misconception of WP:DUE not usually associated with experienced editors such as yourself. We sometimes find this type of misapplication of WP:DUE advanced by pointy editors. If you understand WP:DUE, and you are familiar with reliable sources on the subject of this article, and do not support the undiscussed section blanking of the "Funding" and "Transparency" sections, kindly clarify your position for all of us through your editorial actions by reverting the undiscussed section blanking of the "Funding" and "Transparency" sections. It's long overdue time for you to drop your scare quotes off "proportionately" and embrace your new, fuller understanding of our neutrality pillar through your edits. If you restore both sections in consecutive edits it counts as 1 revert toward your daily allowance. Thank you in advance for your support of our pillar of neutrality. Hugh ( talk) 16:31, 3 July 2015 (UTC)"I think that the edits of Onel5969 in regards to the "Funding" and "Transparency" sections specifically addressed the problem of wp:undue that we have been dealing with in the past few weeks. The sections were simply non-neutral, therefore the elimination of them has increased the neutrality of the article..."
Hugh ( talk) 08:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." - WP:DUE
Hugh ( talk) 16:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)Several major American companies also donated hundreds of thousands to the initial funding of the AFP Foundation, including $275,000 from State Farm Insurance and lesser amounts from 1-800 Contacts, medical products firm Johnson & Johnson, and carpet and flooring manufacturer Shaw Industries....North Carolina philanthropist Art Pope, a founding board member of AFP and a former AFP board chair, is the second largest institutional backer of the AFP Foundation. In 2010, the AFP Foundation received $1.35 million from the John William Pope Foundation, chaired by Pope, and AFP received half a million dollars from the Bradley Foundation. AFP received smaller grants in 2012 from tobacco company Reynolds American and in 2010 and 2012 from the American Petroleum Institute. The donor-advised fund Donors Trust granted $11 million to AFP between 2002 and 2010 and $7 million to the AFP Foundation in 2010.
Well, this recent edit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Americans_for_Prosperity&diff=668230876&oldid=668228803) brings up another issue. This is how it currently stands:
In the 2014 mid-term election cycle, AFP led all groups other than political action committees in spending on political television advertising. AFP's scope of operations has drawn comparisons to political parties. AFP, an educational social welfare organization, and the associated Americans for Prosperity Foundation, a public charity, are tax-exempt non-profits. The extent of AFP's political activities while operating as a tax-exempt entity has raised concerns among some campaign finance watchdogs and Democrats regarding the transparency of its funding.
How it previously stood:
In the 2014 mid-term election cycle, AFP led all groups other than political action committees in spending on political television advertising. AFP's scope of operations has drawn comparisons to political parties. AFP, an educational social welfare organization, and the associated Americans for Prosperity Foundation, a public charity, are tax-exempt non-profits. As a tax-exempt non-profit, AFP is not legally required to disclose its donors. The extent of AFP's political activities while operating as a tax-exempt entity has raised concerns among some campaign finance watchdogs and Democrats regarding the transparency of its funding.
I believe it should stand as either the original, or:
In the 2014 mid-term election cycle, AFP led all groups other than political action committees in spending on political television advertising. AFP's scope of operations has drawn comparisons to political parties. AFP, an educational social welfare organization, and the associated Americans for Prosperity Foundation, a public charity, are tax-exempt non-profits.
Should be one or the other. Either keep in both, or take out both. Because the way it stands now is POV. Its just a critique of AFP, when it legally does not have to disclose anything. DaltonCastle ( talk) 03:13, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Aquillion Perhaps the most audaciously pointed deletion in last week's stunning purge of highly reliable references from this article was the removal of Jane Mayer's "Covert Operations" report in the New Yorker.
Mayer, Jane (August 30, 2010).
"Covert Operations: The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama".
The New Yorker. Retrieved March 20, 2015. internal rivalries at Citizens for a Sound Economy caused the organization to split apart.
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
This report remains a touchstone in investigative journalism into the political activities of the Kochs, and so is a perennial favorite target of apologists. I welcome your engagement in this good article drive, but may I respectfully and humbly urge caution and talk page dialog in deleting content which appears unsupported by references at this point. So much noteworthy content has been deleted at this point that almost everything worth adding is a technically a reversion. Thank you again. Hugh ( talk) 21:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
This source is sufficiently important to neutral coverage of the subject of this article that it was referenced in support of seven items of content as recently as 22 June, please see version [19]. This source was deleted 23 June by user Onel5969 with an edit summary of "Return article to neutrality," along with several other reliable source references, as a small part of an undiscussed major purge of Koch-related content and references, see diff. So there is no doubt further damage to the article from the unilateral, undiscussed, pointed, careless content blanking yet to be discovered. Hugh ( talk) 22:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I removed the NPOV tag, since the issue was resolved prior to it being placed there. A single editor refusing to agree to consensus does not constitute lack of resolution. It merely highlights that editor's failure to understand or abide by consensus. I would ask that editor to self-revert, in order to show he understands consensus. And no, I won't be responding to any of that editor's post, since it is a waste of time, as exhibited by his NPOV tag. Onel5969 TT me 20:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
As this article's collaborative good article effort approached the completeness of coverage of reliable sources required by good article criteria, some editors began peppering the talk page with vague comments of the sense of "too much detail," "irrelevant," or "non-neutral." Many, many polite requests were made to get the talk page conversation started, by identifying a specific item of content of concern and the specific relevant policy or guideline, and these request were most often ignored.
This pattern of non-response is so widespread on this talk page that, were it not for our principle of assuming good faith, one might interpret this demonstrated reluctance to get down to specifics as a recognition that the non-prefered content was a neutral, noteworthy, reasonable paraphrase of reliable sources, and a recognition that policy and guideline did not support removal. Some of the same editors who declined to respond to polite reasonable requests for specifics instead embraced bold, undiscussed blanking of neutral, noteworthy content and reliable source references, and were among the most outspoken supporters of the misguided position that a local consensus may be used to override our pillar of neutrality. Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 16:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)