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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2019 and 11 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Siot0819.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 17:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2019 and 9 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BitterLilyz.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 14:01, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
The claim in the lede isn’t supported by the four sources.
In fact, they maintain the prevalence of a British English outright.
The British council writes in the English Effect report that “the globalisation of the language has led to a diverse range of Englishes different from a “standard” English and the European Commission recognised that over the years European institutions have developed a vocabulary that differs from any recognised form of English” they cite as the cause of the prevalence of English the uks “imperial expansion” and political and military power through the 19th and 20th centuries.
According to TEFL there. Are “up to 1.5 billion” English language learners worldwide. 750 million of those are “English as a foreign language speakers” and 375 million “English as second language speakers”. 64% of which are “learning British English from British textbooks”.
In the commmonwealth of Nations “British English is generally preferred” and this statement is supported by Wikipedia’s own article on the topic. In fact, “Commonwealth English” is referred to as British English by Icon group Intenational in 2008, in Disturbances: Webster’s quotations, facts and phrases, p384, as well as Namrata Palta’s “preparing for call centre interviews” pages 80-81 from 2006 explaining how Indians should learn British English.
Therefore, I feel the claim in the lede is unjustified, or needs some disputing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.252.129.46 ( talk) 01:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
American influence on global (not just British) English is risingwhile being clear that American English is not "absorbing" British English. The third source says that
American English, like the American dollar, is the current dominant force globally. The fourth source says that
Americanisation of the English language... is sweeping the world and influencing English in India as well.I think the sources are pretty clear. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:22, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
These sources are clearly and blatantly disputed. “Influencing English in India” is counteracted by my sources saying British English is widely preferred and taught over American English. British English being the more common English taught and learnt is also clear. How does that make American English more “influential”? We need to add that it is disputed to the lede. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.252.129.46 ( talk) 16:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
The notion that words like "bin" , "rubbish" and "mummy" are exclusively British and that use of such words by American children is evidence of contemporary British influence is, well, rubbish. I grew up in Detroit in the 1950s and any five year old child back then understood and occasionally used these words. Of course, the most common use of "mummy" had to do with the preserved bodies of ancient Egypt, but it would not have been uncommon for a child to have called their mother that, although I preferred "mom" personally. As for American children imitating British accents for comedic effect, that goes back at least as far as the American Revolution and is evidence of nothing. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:28, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
Does "Currently, American English is the most influential form of English worldwide" really need six citations? I understand it's a claim that's likely to be disputed, but isn't that rather excessive? 68.110.111.227 ( talk) 20:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I am an international editor. When I work for people in the United States, I have to use American English and grammar. When I work outside the United States, I have to use British English and grammar. This article shows where British English is taught: https://moverdb.com/british-vs-american-english/ Clearly more nations and a greater population of the world are taught British English. The articles/books used to support the claim that British English is more influential is based solely on vocabulary and spelling in select countries. If we go by that, we could say French or Latin is more influential than American English because their words fill the English language. Simply borrowing words is NOT the determiner as to whether or not something is influential. As this article says ( https://quicksilvertranslate.com/5593/the-differences-between-indian-and-british-english/), although people from India are taught British English in schools and borrow much from American English, they use their own words, pronunciation, and inflections that are unique to India. I can honestly say that not only have I spoken on the phone with people from India who were speaking English and I had difficulty understanding them, but I also have spoken with someone from the United Kingdom and NEITHER of us could understand each other!!! We had to resort to e-mailing in order to communicate about that job. If American English is so influential, as the article claims, the world would be teaching American grammar. Instead, Chicago style and AP style (the style guide for the American Press) have incorporated Australian Harvard style punctuation elements into it (see AP style guide, APA style guide, and Australian Harvard style guides). If American English were so influential, it would not simply be slang words and spelling used by other countries but the entire method of constructing sentences would also be changing around the world, and that is not the case. The truth of the matter is that English, whether it is Australian, Indian, American, British, or from other countries is influenced most by local dialect and secondly by all outside forces. To say that American English is most influential because of vocabulary words used solely by young people in the U.K. or India is to ignore that Americans incorporate British grammar and punctuation rules into their writing and to ignore that British English is the most taught in schools around the world. Never have I had someone tell me to use American English if the article/book was going to be used outside of the United States. Instead, I have employers telling me that they want me to use the conventions of their own countries. Outside of vocabulary (which is vastly different across English speaking nations), that means I use British English outside the U.S. and American English within it. Granted, since Australia wrote the style guide that is used by most of the English speaking world, I suppose you could say Australian English is the most influential, but again, the article would be improved if the claim was simply dropped altogether. 2601:245:C100:5E5C:2D18:2C2F:A606:B0F3 ( talk) 13:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Why is San Antonio listed in the box as the largest urban center for the Southern accent? The Houston metropolitan area is the largest Southern accent urban center, and is far larger than San Antonio. 021120x ( talk) 22:48, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
Removing the Official Language Section? Even though IT is marked as only some states the Federal Government of the US does not recognize American English or any type of English so im adding some Italitcs too it to prevent false knowledge from being spread. AntManSC ( talk) 10:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi @
Compositionist: You claim, citing the Mufwene source, that regional variation in American English reflects these [different immigrant and enslaved] groups' geographic dispersal and settlement and their de jure and then de facto segregation, respectively.
I've changed regional variation
to racial and sometimes regional variation
. Even so, preserving the word "regional" to me is a little suspect. This is certainly a budding focus in American dialectology; the general consensus is that a mixing or
koineization event happened in the US, mostly blending different English, Irish, and Scottish dialects. This established American dialect patterns perhaps even more than later groups' dispesal and settlement and... segregation
. Still, I admit the evidence seems complex and the basic trends are what's still being studied. Segregation is certainly a factor, but if, how, and to what degree it directly impacted linguistic variation remains somewhat controversial. Also, pace Mufwene, other scholars (John McWhorter, for example), argue that even AAVE really shows more influence from British Isles English than any overwhelming African sources. The Mufwene source you cite is some 20 pages; can you point to a couple specific pages I can look at to get a more in-depth understanding of where your info is coming from?
Wolfdog (
talk) 13:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
This is not the perfect place to bring this up, but I can think of no better place either. (Too bad there's no Help:IPA/American English.) Should phonemic transcription using IPA be expected to be different for every American English dialect/accent page ( Philadelphia English, New York accent, Southern American English, California English, Maine accent, etc. etc.), or is there a good reason to keep one consistent phonemic system across all of these pages? Sol505000 seems to prefer the former, so that, for example, we now have the LOT phoneme represented as /ɒ/ on Boston accent, /a/ on Inland Northern American English, and /ɑ/ on Western American English and General American. My instinct is to just use /ɑ/ on all four of these pages, mostly for reader-friendliness. Again: I'm just talking phonemic notation here, not phonetic, which can always get into the nitty-gritty. Still, though, I don't have an overwhelming preference. I do, however, think it would be useful for the community to arrive at some larger consensus or basic guideline here to help steer future editing either one way or the other. Thanks! Wolfdog ( talk) 01:59, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
@ BilCat, Nardog, Artem.G, Megaman en m, Meters, AJD, Erutuon, Blaze Wolf, Aeusoes1, and Austronesier: Any thoughts here (just towards some basic consensus) would be much appreciated — thanks! Wolfdog ( talk) 13:53, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
The word data is commonly pronounced /ˈdaːta/, with /ˈdæɪta/ being the second most common, and /ˈdɛta/ being very rare.) It would be neat if the articles on some of the American accents could do a similar thing. — Eru· tuon 23:01, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
if a reliable phonological description is available for a given dialect, we should be using the phonemic transcription detailed therein on the page that covers that specific dialect. I think the emphasis I want to add here is
if a reliable phonological description is available. It's easy enough to come up with notations that are logical but not directly citing research. Such instances of logical-but-not-verified could lead to WP editors bickering about specifics continuously, as in the past. I suppose Accents of English (Wells) and A Handbook of Varieties of English (edited by Kortmann and Schneider) are two possible places to start, though even their transcriptions are often varied or purely phonetic. Wolfdog ( talk) 19:01, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm not making any changes without discussion, as it appears that "Official language" has been in the infobox for a number of years (with occasional minor adjustments). However, I'm fairly certain that most or (more likely) all of the states and territories that designate an official language simply refer to "English" and not to "American English" or any similar construction. While clearly the government affairs of these states are de facto largely conducted in American English, the infobox strikes me as arguably misleading as this particular dialect or set of dialects is not in fact official (anywhere, I would guess). CAVincent ( talk) 05:30, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
American English article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
American English is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured article |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2019 and 11 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Siot0819.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 17:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2019 and 9 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BitterLilyz.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 14:01, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
The claim in the lede isn’t supported by the four sources.
In fact, they maintain the prevalence of a British English outright.
The British council writes in the English Effect report that “the globalisation of the language has led to a diverse range of Englishes different from a “standard” English and the European Commission recognised that over the years European institutions have developed a vocabulary that differs from any recognised form of English” they cite as the cause of the prevalence of English the uks “imperial expansion” and political and military power through the 19th and 20th centuries.
According to TEFL there. Are “up to 1.5 billion” English language learners worldwide. 750 million of those are “English as a foreign language speakers” and 375 million “English as second language speakers”. 64% of which are “learning British English from British textbooks”.
In the commmonwealth of Nations “British English is generally preferred” and this statement is supported by Wikipedia’s own article on the topic. In fact, “Commonwealth English” is referred to as British English by Icon group Intenational in 2008, in Disturbances: Webster’s quotations, facts and phrases, p384, as well as Namrata Palta’s “preparing for call centre interviews” pages 80-81 from 2006 explaining how Indians should learn British English.
Therefore, I feel the claim in the lede is unjustified, or needs some disputing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.252.129.46 ( talk) 01:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
American influence on global (not just British) English is risingwhile being clear that American English is not "absorbing" British English. The third source says that
American English, like the American dollar, is the current dominant force globally. The fourth source says that
Americanisation of the English language... is sweeping the world and influencing English in India as well.I think the sources are pretty clear. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:22, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
These sources are clearly and blatantly disputed. “Influencing English in India” is counteracted by my sources saying British English is widely preferred and taught over American English. British English being the more common English taught and learnt is also clear. How does that make American English more “influential”? We need to add that it is disputed to the lede. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.252.129.46 ( talk) 16:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
The notion that words like "bin" , "rubbish" and "mummy" are exclusively British and that use of such words by American children is evidence of contemporary British influence is, well, rubbish. I grew up in Detroit in the 1950s and any five year old child back then understood and occasionally used these words. Of course, the most common use of "mummy" had to do with the preserved bodies of ancient Egypt, but it would not have been uncommon for a child to have called their mother that, although I preferred "mom" personally. As for American children imitating British accents for comedic effect, that goes back at least as far as the American Revolution and is evidence of nothing. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:28, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
Does "Currently, American English is the most influential form of English worldwide" really need six citations? I understand it's a claim that's likely to be disputed, but isn't that rather excessive? 68.110.111.227 ( talk) 20:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I am an international editor. When I work for people in the United States, I have to use American English and grammar. When I work outside the United States, I have to use British English and grammar. This article shows where British English is taught: https://moverdb.com/british-vs-american-english/ Clearly more nations and a greater population of the world are taught British English. The articles/books used to support the claim that British English is more influential is based solely on vocabulary and spelling in select countries. If we go by that, we could say French or Latin is more influential than American English because their words fill the English language. Simply borrowing words is NOT the determiner as to whether or not something is influential. As this article says ( https://quicksilvertranslate.com/5593/the-differences-between-indian-and-british-english/), although people from India are taught British English in schools and borrow much from American English, they use their own words, pronunciation, and inflections that are unique to India. I can honestly say that not only have I spoken on the phone with people from India who were speaking English and I had difficulty understanding them, but I also have spoken with someone from the United Kingdom and NEITHER of us could understand each other!!! We had to resort to e-mailing in order to communicate about that job. If American English is so influential, as the article claims, the world would be teaching American grammar. Instead, Chicago style and AP style (the style guide for the American Press) have incorporated Australian Harvard style punctuation elements into it (see AP style guide, APA style guide, and Australian Harvard style guides). If American English were so influential, it would not simply be slang words and spelling used by other countries but the entire method of constructing sentences would also be changing around the world, and that is not the case. The truth of the matter is that English, whether it is Australian, Indian, American, British, or from other countries is influenced most by local dialect and secondly by all outside forces. To say that American English is most influential because of vocabulary words used solely by young people in the U.K. or India is to ignore that Americans incorporate British grammar and punctuation rules into their writing and to ignore that British English is the most taught in schools around the world. Never have I had someone tell me to use American English if the article/book was going to be used outside of the United States. Instead, I have employers telling me that they want me to use the conventions of their own countries. Outside of vocabulary (which is vastly different across English speaking nations), that means I use British English outside the U.S. and American English within it. Granted, since Australia wrote the style guide that is used by most of the English speaking world, I suppose you could say Australian English is the most influential, but again, the article would be improved if the claim was simply dropped altogether. 2601:245:C100:5E5C:2D18:2C2F:A606:B0F3 ( talk) 13:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Why is San Antonio listed in the box as the largest urban center for the Southern accent? The Houston metropolitan area is the largest Southern accent urban center, and is far larger than San Antonio. 021120x ( talk) 22:48, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
Removing the Official Language Section? Even though IT is marked as only some states the Federal Government of the US does not recognize American English or any type of English so im adding some Italitcs too it to prevent false knowledge from being spread. AntManSC ( talk) 10:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi @
Compositionist: You claim, citing the Mufwene source, that regional variation in American English reflects these [different immigrant and enslaved] groups' geographic dispersal and settlement and their de jure and then de facto segregation, respectively.
I've changed regional variation
to racial and sometimes regional variation
. Even so, preserving the word "regional" to me is a little suspect. This is certainly a budding focus in American dialectology; the general consensus is that a mixing or
koineization event happened in the US, mostly blending different English, Irish, and Scottish dialects. This established American dialect patterns perhaps even more than later groups' dispesal and settlement and... segregation
. Still, I admit the evidence seems complex and the basic trends are what's still being studied. Segregation is certainly a factor, but if, how, and to what degree it directly impacted linguistic variation remains somewhat controversial. Also, pace Mufwene, other scholars (John McWhorter, for example), argue that even AAVE really shows more influence from British Isles English than any overwhelming African sources. The Mufwene source you cite is some 20 pages; can you point to a couple specific pages I can look at to get a more in-depth understanding of where your info is coming from?
Wolfdog (
talk) 13:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
This is not the perfect place to bring this up, but I can think of no better place either. (Too bad there's no Help:IPA/American English.) Should phonemic transcription using IPA be expected to be different for every American English dialect/accent page ( Philadelphia English, New York accent, Southern American English, California English, Maine accent, etc. etc.), or is there a good reason to keep one consistent phonemic system across all of these pages? Sol505000 seems to prefer the former, so that, for example, we now have the LOT phoneme represented as /ɒ/ on Boston accent, /a/ on Inland Northern American English, and /ɑ/ on Western American English and General American. My instinct is to just use /ɑ/ on all four of these pages, mostly for reader-friendliness. Again: I'm just talking phonemic notation here, not phonetic, which can always get into the nitty-gritty. Still, though, I don't have an overwhelming preference. I do, however, think it would be useful for the community to arrive at some larger consensus or basic guideline here to help steer future editing either one way or the other. Thanks! Wolfdog ( talk) 01:59, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
@ BilCat, Nardog, Artem.G, Megaman en m, Meters, AJD, Erutuon, Blaze Wolf, Aeusoes1, and Austronesier: Any thoughts here (just towards some basic consensus) would be much appreciated — thanks! Wolfdog ( talk) 13:53, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
The word data is commonly pronounced /ˈdaːta/, with /ˈdæɪta/ being the second most common, and /ˈdɛta/ being very rare.) It would be neat if the articles on some of the American accents could do a similar thing. — Eru· tuon 23:01, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
if a reliable phonological description is available for a given dialect, we should be using the phonemic transcription detailed therein on the page that covers that specific dialect. I think the emphasis I want to add here is
if a reliable phonological description is available. It's easy enough to come up with notations that are logical but not directly citing research. Such instances of logical-but-not-verified could lead to WP editors bickering about specifics continuously, as in the past. I suppose Accents of English (Wells) and A Handbook of Varieties of English (edited by Kortmann and Schneider) are two possible places to start, though even their transcriptions are often varied or purely phonetic. Wolfdog ( talk) 19:01, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm not making any changes without discussion, as it appears that "Official language" has been in the infobox for a number of years (with occasional minor adjustments). However, I'm fairly certain that most or (more likely) all of the states and territories that designate an official language simply refer to "English" and not to "American English" or any similar construction. While clearly the government affairs of these states are de facto largely conducted in American English, the infobox strikes me as arguably misleading as this particular dialect or set of dialects is not in fact official (anywhere, I would guess). CAVincent ( talk) 05:30, 26 January 2024 (UTC)