This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've included this as it has been a source of much debate and largely relates to the way in which the area has been administered over time. Could I draw people's attention to the following couple of statements found at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)
This page in a nutshell: Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution. and
1. Avoid revert wars: If there is a dispute regarding the naming convention in the contents of the article, to prevent revert wars the name from the title of the relevant article should be used in all occurrences until a consensus is reached on the relevant talk page(s). If the dispute is affecting more than one article, it should be discussed on the talk page of the main article about the place in question; if the dispute is affecting many pages, a template should be created to pull all the disputants into one discussion. See Template:Gdansk-Vote-Notice for an example of such a notice. 2. Ask for help: If a consensus cannot be reached, it is recommended to ask for help at the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography."
Cosmopolitancats 08:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Describing Altrincham as a "Cheshire town ... that is part of Greater Manchester" is potentially confusing to someone who doesn't know what you mean. It is important to mention Cheshire, but I think (IMHO) that I've clarified it a bit. -- RFBailey 22:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
(above comment left by 131.111.8.100)
.......... and would add further, that any 'Local Government Re-Shuffle'/ 'administrative boundary change' / 'wards changed from one constituency to another' or 'any council activity whatsoever', would have no effect on the Royal Mails postal service. The 'post town' for Altrincham is Warrington, postcode beginning with WA, regardless of it being within the Trafford admin. area (and Warrington is 'in' Lancashire, although administratively, Cheshire). So, the residents of Altrincham may give their address as 'Timbuktu', as long as they give the Warrington postcode at the end of it. 80.192.242.187 12:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.
Jhamez84 - you seem to have some sort of obscession with deleting the fact that most residents still include Cheshire in the address of the town. Nobody is arguing that Altrincham is not in Gtr. Manchester or that it is officially part of Cheshire. But what people are saying is that most people consider the town to be part of Cheshire (even though this is technically wrong). It is important to mention this at the start of the article, as it gives part of the impression of Altrincham (that it is similar to other Cheshire towns, even though officially it is not in Cheshire.) Please stop trying to delete this in the name of 'vandalism' as you know perfectly well that it is not. You're simply deleting this because you disagree with others opinions. And given that you don't live in Altrincham where as we do, then we are the best people to comment in articles about Altrincham. Stop abusing Wikipedia for your own little gains. Bob74 15:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
:b) I further deleted not for "own little gains" (whatever they may be), I delete it because I have the article's best interests at heart.
Having watched this escapade for a couple of days, may I say that you are being completely unfair with regards to this issue. If the policy stands that editors get to dictate what goes into every article then what is the point of Wikipedia?? I agree with Bob74 above that every person in Altrincham uses Cheshire in their address (whether right or wrong) and it is ridiculous that you are demanding that it should be removed. I noticed on Bob's Talk page, you spelt Altrincham as 'Altringham' which shows your lack of knowledge of the town. No source is required at all for this - the vast majority of info in the article (and most other articles) is sourceless (eg. Altrincham being wealthy). Everybody in Altrincham uses Cheshire in the address (not the just the majority). It is a fact and I will also continue to write it in. I recommend that you change this absurd policy. Thanks. Chiving 18:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the new compromise regarding the counties is acceptable. RRJ 12:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
My goodness - what a fuss.
Can I just remind people that the use of a county name long after it ceased to be the correct administrative unit is a long established tradition in English local history and I'm a bit surprised it hasn't been raised before this. A lot of the residents of London Boroughs (ie part of Greater London in adminsitrative terms) continue to use the names of the counties which they used to be part of in their addresses - including ones like Middlesex that ceased to exist very many years ago! If you've not lived in an area where there has been change or don't have relatives or friends who live in such an area you may not be aware of this phenomena.
People continue to use a historical name because it is an important part of retaining the identity of a place and consequently the identify of self. Local government reorganisations come and go. I can quote you chapter and verse in relation to the Redcliffe-Maud Report and its aftermath the subsequent reorganisation of local government (why do you think SELNEC failed to get off the ground?), academic texts on geographical perception and the importance of geographical boundaries which never ever change (eg the River Mersey) if you like. The 'fact' that it is important for some people to continue to use a name in their address is just as important as the 'fact' that changes boundaries of administrative units. If it weren't then the use of the name 'Middlesex' would have been discontinued a long time ago - but it hasn't been. It could be argued that the 'fact' of where people think they live is actually more important that the administrative unit where they currently live technically as history tends to suggest that it is more enduring.
And I come from an area adjacent to Altrincham, live in London, am amused by people I know who still think they live in Middlesex and and continue to address my Christmas cards home with 'Altrincham, Cheshire' in the address - because that's where I come from. I don't think I've ever come across anybody who used Trafford in their address. It's important to record facts about local culture as well as facts about local government units. Please respect the knowledge of 'local people' - wherever they may live.
For the record, (and I have academic status in this matter) in my expert opinion, this article should clearly record that:
I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as a town in Cheshire as that is technically incorrect - but I would recognise the need to recognise local heritage and what that means to this day at a local level. I trust this statement provides evidence of sufficient expertise for the necessary amendments to be made.
(For the record, the area north of the Mersey - which forms the northern part of Trafford - was split from Cheshire in 1182 - hence the long established and documented tradition that the people in the north of the borough associate with Manchester and Lancashire and that the people south of the Mersey flood plain associate mainly with areas south of the river.) Cosmopolitancats 21:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd also add that I wouldn't look to the Wikipedia article on local government in the UK as any sort of reference in this matter - I've just taken a look at it and it's not very good. Cosmopolitancats 21:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Cosmo has spoken and it makes perfect sense to me. Candy 11:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm removing the 'citation needed' from the part about most people in Altrincham using Cheshire as the postal county. We've discussed this issue at length and most agree it is a well established fact about the town that does not require citation. It's on par with 'the sky is blue' and 'London is the capital of England'. Common knowledge does not require citation. RRJ 13:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean you don't find it likely to be true? You find me one person who doesn't put Cheshire in their address and lives in Altrincham. You are the only person who finds this unacceptable. Everyone knows this is common knowledge and it will stay. There is no citation anywhere on the internet about this - and why would there be? It's just basic knowledge that people in Altrincham know. I've read the Wiki policy and this is fine under those rules. I'm going to give a warning to Jhamez84 on his talk page because of this continuing disruption despite the fact that the compromises had already been made earlier and seemed acceptable to everyone who commented. PS. Nobody has multiple accounts, so stop saying that there are. RRJ 18:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I offer the following wikipedia policy as an appropriate citation - the Wikipedia naming convention (places) [2] states as follows
Naming conventions (places) are guidelines on how to appropriately name articles about countries and regions, and places within each country or region. ..........
Follow local conventions
There are several methods in common use for the form of place names. Usually, the shortest form is preferred. However, certain place names always have a disambiguating term as well.
Generally, use the official English name for the place and its type.
* Example: the country has "oblasts" and its government officially translates them as "area", "region", or "zone", then they should never be renamed "province" to conform to another country or some master schema.
If there is not an official translation, then a general equivalent or obvious cognate should be used, until a better solution is found.
When there is any confusion, use "ShortName" or "ShortName Term" (capitalized) as appropriate, until locals or someone familiar with the country can offer a more correct version. Either form can easily be changed to a disambiguation page later.
Nota Bene: The testimony of locals and people familiar with the country should be considered above Google evidence. Google is very likely to have many results from news organizations and wire services. These remote reporters may be ignorant about local naming standards.''
My italics highlight the importance given by wikipedia policy on naming conventions to local knowledge of a situation. I believe this deals adequately with the issue in dispute.
Cosmopolitancats 01:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've included this as it has been a source of much debate and largely relates to the way in which the area has been administered over time. Could I draw people's attention to the following couple of statements found at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)
This page in a nutshell: Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution. and
1. Avoid revert wars: If there is a dispute regarding the naming convention in the contents of the article, to prevent revert wars the name from the title of the relevant article should be used in all occurrences until a consensus is reached on the relevant talk page(s). If the dispute is affecting more than one article, it should be discussed on the talk page of the main article about the place in question; if the dispute is affecting many pages, a template should be created to pull all the disputants into one discussion. See Template:Gdansk-Vote-Notice for an example of such a notice. 2. Ask for help: If a consensus cannot be reached, it is recommended to ask for help at the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography."
Cosmopolitancats 08:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Describing Altrincham as a "Cheshire town ... that is part of Greater Manchester" is potentially confusing to someone who doesn't know what you mean. It is important to mention Cheshire, but I think (IMHO) that I've clarified it a bit. -- RFBailey 22:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
(above comment left by 131.111.8.100)
.......... and would add further, that any 'Local Government Re-Shuffle'/ 'administrative boundary change' / 'wards changed from one constituency to another' or 'any council activity whatsoever', would have no effect on the Royal Mails postal service. The 'post town' for Altrincham is Warrington, postcode beginning with WA, regardless of it being within the Trafford admin. area (and Warrington is 'in' Lancashire, although administratively, Cheshire). So, the residents of Altrincham may give their address as 'Timbuktu', as long as they give the Warrington postcode at the end of it. 80.192.242.187 12:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.
Jhamez84 - you seem to have some sort of obscession with deleting the fact that most residents still include Cheshire in the address of the town. Nobody is arguing that Altrincham is not in Gtr. Manchester or that it is officially part of Cheshire. But what people are saying is that most people consider the town to be part of Cheshire (even though this is technically wrong). It is important to mention this at the start of the article, as it gives part of the impression of Altrincham (that it is similar to other Cheshire towns, even though officially it is not in Cheshire.) Please stop trying to delete this in the name of 'vandalism' as you know perfectly well that it is not. You're simply deleting this because you disagree with others opinions. And given that you don't live in Altrincham where as we do, then we are the best people to comment in articles about Altrincham. Stop abusing Wikipedia for your own little gains. Bob74 15:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
:b) I further deleted not for "own little gains" (whatever they may be), I delete it because I have the article's best interests at heart.
Having watched this escapade for a couple of days, may I say that you are being completely unfair with regards to this issue. If the policy stands that editors get to dictate what goes into every article then what is the point of Wikipedia?? I agree with Bob74 above that every person in Altrincham uses Cheshire in their address (whether right or wrong) and it is ridiculous that you are demanding that it should be removed. I noticed on Bob's Talk page, you spelt Altrincham as 'Altringham' which shows your lack of knowledge of the town. No source is required at all for this - the vast majority of info in the article (and most other articles) is sourceless (eg. Altrincham being wealthy). Everybody in Altrincham uses Cheshire in the address (not the just the majority). It is a fact and I will also continue to write it in. I recommend that you change this absurd policy. Thanks. Chiving 18:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the new compromise regarding the counties is acceptable. RRJ 12:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
My goodness - what a fuss.
Can I just remind people that the use of a county name long after it ceased to be the correct administrative unit is a long established tradition in English local history and I'm a bit surprised it hasn't been raised before this. A lot of the residents of London Boroughs (ie part of Greater London in adminsitrative terms) continue to use the names of the counties which they used to be part of in their addresses - including ones like Middlesex that ceased to exist very many years ago! If you've not lived in an area where there has been change or don't have relatives or friends who live in such an area you may not be aware of this phenomena.
People continue to use a historical name because it is an important part of retaining the identity of a place and consequently the identify of self. Local government reorganisations come and go. I can quote you chapter and verse in relation to the Redcliffe-Maud Report and its aftermath the subsequent reorganisation of local government (why do you think SELNEC failed to get off the ground?), academic texts on geographical perception and the importance of geographical boundaries which never ever change (eg the River Mersey) if you like. The 'fact' that it is important for some people to continue to use a name in their address is just as important as the 'fact' that changes boundaries of administrative units. If it weren't then the use of the name 'Middlesex' would have been discontinued a long time ago - but it hasn't been. It could be argued that the 'fact' of where people think they live is actually more important that the administrative unit where they currently live technically as history tends to suggest that it is more enduring.
And I come from an area adjacent to Altrincham, live in London, am amused by people I know who still think they live in Middlesex and and continue to address my Christmas cards home with 'Altrincham, Cheshire' in the address - because that's where I come from. I don't think I've ever come across anybody who used Trafford in their address. It's important to record facts about local culture as well as facts about local government units. Please respect the knowledge of 'local people' - wherever they may live.
For the record, (and I have academic status in this matter) in my expert opinion, this article should clearly record that:
I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as a town in Cheshire as that is technically incorrect - but I would recognise the need to recognise local heritage and what that means to this day at a local level. I trust this statement provides evidence of sufficient expertise for the necessary amendments to be made.
(For the record, the area north of the Mersey - which forms the northern part of Trafford - was split from Cheshire in 1182 - hence the long established and documented tradition that the people in the north of the borough associate with Manchester and Lancashire and that the people south of the Mersey flood plain associate mainly with areas south of the river.) Cosmopolitancats 21:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd also add that I wouldn't look to the Wikipedia article on local government in the UK as any sort of reference in this matter - I've just taken a look at it and it's not very good. Cosmopolitancats 21:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Cosmo has spoken and it makes perfect sense to me. Candy 11:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm removing the 'citation needed' from the part about most people in Altrincham using Cheshire as the postal county. We've discussed this issue at length and most agree it is a well established fact about the town that does not require citation. It's on par with 'the sky is blue' and 'London is the capital of England'. Common knowledge does not require citation. RRJ 13:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean you don't find it likely to be true? You find me one person who doesn't put Cheshire in their address and lives in Altrincham. You are the only person who finds this unacceptable. Everyone knows this is common knowledge and it will stay. There is no citation anywhere on the internet about this - and why would there be? It's just basic knowledge that people in Altrincham know. I've read the Wiki policy and this is fine under those rules. I'm going to give a warning to Jhamez84 on his talk page because of this continuing disruption despite the fact that the compromises had already been made earlier and seemed acceptable to everyone who commented. PS. Nobody has multiple accounts, so stop saying that there are. RRJ 18:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I offer the following wikipedia policy as an appropriate citation - the Wikipedia naming convention (places) [2] states as follows
Naming conventions (places) are guidelines on how to appropriately name articles about countries and regions, and places within each country or region. ..........
Follow local conventions
There are several methods in common use for the form of place names. Usually, the shortest form is preferred. However, certain place names always have a disambiguating term as well.
Generally, use the official English name for the place and its type.
* Example: the country has "oblasts" and its government officially translates them as "area", "region", or "zone", then they should never be renamed "province" to conform to another country or some master schema.
If there is not an official translation, then a general equivalent or obvious cognate should be used, until a better solution is found.
When there is any confusion, use "ShortName" or "ShortName Term" (capitalized) as appropriate, until locals or someone familiar with the country can offer a more correct version. Either form can easily be changed to a disambiguation page later.
Nota Bene: The testimony of locals and people familiar with the country should be considered above Google evidence. Google is very likely to have many results from news organizations and wire services. These remote reporters may be ignorant about local naming standards.''
My italics highlight the importance given by wikipedia policy on naming conventions to local knowledge of a situation. I believe this deals adequately with the issue in dispute.
Cosmopolitancats 01:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)