This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
"Stories which were set in the future when they were written which has since come and passed (such as George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four) are not alternative history."
What if an official (canonical) sequel were to be written in 2005, which worked from the premise that the events in Nineteen Eighty-Four has actually occured, just as in the original? Would the original Nineteen Eighty-Four then become alternative history? -- Corvun 23:15, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, it would not. There's no POD in 1984. No specific POD, no AH. -- Jrittenh 7 July 2005 08:30 (UTC)
As For 1984 the POD is obvious (though at the time this was set in the "far" future) at some point (probably the late 1940's) the East and West get into a fight (I'm guessing Berlin), in the process the USSR takes over western Europe and an isolated UK forms common cause with the USA maybe even becoming a state (and taking along the colonies) this creates Oceania, in the havoc caused by the war the conditions are about the same as those of Russia in 1917. An English Socialist party stages a coup, it spreads to America and eventually is perverted by BB into the world we meet in the book. Tobias1 15:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought there was going to be official mediation here to set the article right. That was about a month ago now though... When is this happening?-- 84.12.59.87 19:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I can't see why mediating is needed any longer. Just present both viewpoints, "some students of AH argue X, others argue Y...." The persons who argued heatedly over the disputed point last year seem to have moved on. I frankly think official mediation is a waste of time on the point they were arguing.--9 May 2006
Why on earth would that be merged with this? All the examples given in that article are clearly not alternate histories. Goldfritha 02:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
A disgruntled member of the forums at alternatehistory.com keeps on deleting the link to the site? Since AH.com is the most comprehensive ah-themed website in the english language, the link should be included in the appropriate section. Is it possible to lock to stop this vandalism?
Id say it deserves mention. With all the censorship and chasing off of those with opposing viewpoints that goes on I dont see how its the "most comprehensive".
Any other person who removes the external link will be summarily blocked. User:Zoe| (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough on the phrasing of it, the terms are a little loaded. It certainly is promiment enough though that it's worth a mention, certainly more so then some of the other links, how about something along the lines of "a large web-based alternate history discussion board"? The vandal hasn't stopped, as of 2200 EST it has been changed again.
Alternatehistory.com has by nearly an order of magnitude the most active alternate history discussion forum on the net (I have no idea what the phrasing was after this deletion war, but I wrote an original phrasing specifically about being the largest AH *discussion board* on the net). It has approximately 1100 posts per day as of last month, generally 600-700 members who have posted within the last month, and an archive of nearly 700,000 posts. The second and third largest forums that I'm aware of were the newsgroup soc.history.what-if and othertimelines.com. I haven't checked the latest google stats but SHWI was averaging something like 120-150 posts per day in 2005 (and, unfortunately, continuously declining on a year-to-year basis). A quick glance at the Google stats indicates that SHWI has roughly the same number of archived posts, since its creation in 1992 (alternatehistory.com dates from late 2000). I don't know othertimelines.com's daily activity level (though it is nowhere near alternatehistory.com's) but it has about 125,000 posts total in its archive. - Ian M, board admin Ian M 02:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the notion alternatehistory.com is "the most active alternate history discussion forum". Yeah, theres quite a bit of traffic. However, most of the activity goes on in two chat rooms where AH is rarely ever discussed. Also, the most active members rarely ever post in the alt hist areas.
Not sure who this anonymous naysayer is, but it's no accident they don't post figures. Alternatehistory.com has 50% posts in chat, which leaves 550 posts per day in the purely on-topic forums. soc.history.what-if averaged 120 posts per day in 2005, including off-topic posting and trolls (which occur with regularity on the unmoderated newsgroup): http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_frm/thread/778af20335f71409/89d5e25ccf4f000a?lnk=st&q=&rnum=42#89d5e25ccf4f000a Hard to figure the activity level of othertimelines.com as it recently dropped a lot due to severe hacker attacks. The phpBB post count claims 80,000 archived posts in the mostly on-topic forums, but it's clear that this number of posts aren't actually visible. Anyway, that site isn't nearly as active either. Ian Montgomerie 07:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Saying Alternatehistory.com is "the most active alternate history discussion forum" is like saying MTV is the greatest music video channel on cable TV! Ah.com has heavy traffic. Certainly more than Unwritten History or Alternia from any vantage point. It doesnt change the fact that at least every other post has almost nothing to do with alternate history. Contrast that with othertimelines.com where most all posts are relevant to the stated purpose of the board. Nah, "most active" is too vague a term
It is the largest, and has more on-topic posts verifiable than any other group. Fadethebutcher 21:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Othertimelines has essentially died due to hacker/spamming activities. The community however still exists, in a very active undisclosed website. Although OTL still has the largest collection of esaily accesable AH TLs on the internet.
I've been posting a link to the active Othertimelines discussion board, and while its in there when I go to edit, it doesn't show up on the page, is the link section locked or something? If so I'd appreciate whoever has the power in inserting the link onto the page. Nevermind its working now, probably just some trouble with my machine. 217.84.184.73 23:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I have removed POV comments from the Fantasy section. Whether these "should" be called "pseudo-alternities" or not, the fact is that they are not so called. Goldfritha 23:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
An edit summary comment by recent editor says he or she is not sure PK Dick qualifies as a major writer. For the record, the prestigious Library of America is coming out with a Philip K. Dick volume next spring (I presume Man in a High Castle will be one of the novels included). Although I personally think the LOA's first choice of a science-fiction writer to honor should have been the incomparable Jack Vance, the LOA volume will certainly consolidate Dick's well deserved reputation as an important figure in mainstream as well as genre literature.--14 Sept 2006
Wikipedians who read alternate history should consider deploying this userbox {{ User:Erielhonan/UBX/Alt-history}} on their user page to be included in Category:Wikipedians_who_enjoy_alt-history. This userbox and category were started to create a wikicommunity that will strive to keep articles about alternate history up-to-date and up to Wikipedia standards. -- Erielhonan 01:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a vivid example I've never seen mentioned: that the fall of the USSR depended in large part on the untimely deaths of two men: Yuri Andropov being one. He was not planned to be a caretaker leader, his death after 11 months in office was truly unexpected. The plan was for him to be the hard-line Soviet leader for a good 20 years.
The other was Pope John Paul Ist, dead after--what?--10 days. Murdered? Maybe. Untimely, either way.
So then, imagine: no Polish Pope in the Vatican to defend Soldarity and Walesa against an Andropov-led Kremlin. No Gorbachev in the Kremlin to promulgate Glasnost and Perestroika.
A tremendously different recent history, due to the unexpected deaths of two men.
miguelj
Sorry, if this comment is placed wrongly. Just wanted to mention "Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad as an interesting piece of AH. It is a novel "by Adolf Hitler", if Hitler migrated to the U.S. in 1919 and became a sci-fi author, including an editorial note from the paralel history, which shows some context. 194.108.220.58 08:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Per this CfD discussion, it was suggested that the parentheses be removed from "fiction". The only reason not to do so was to match the article name. However, in light of the discussion, perhaps the parenteses should be removed from both the article and the category (which would make the article name: Alternate history fiction - which is currently a redirect). The category discussion is now "on hold" awaiting any thoughts or concerns that may be mentioned here. - jc37 15:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Please re-read the nomination, the discussion, and the closure. The main thing is that the category name should match the article name in most cases. And this case doesn't seem to be an exception to that.
We've already had a CfD on this, and my post was here unresponded to for well over a week. However, I am a strong proponent of Consensus can change, so I have no problem with the idea of starting a new discussion on this. The main thing I ask is that before this page is moved again, that a new CfD is started for the related category first, and then we can use that discussion as a model for determining consensus for the name for this page as well.
As for my own opinion, just a thought, but unless there is a concern that readers may be confused between alternative and alternate, perhaps "(fiction)" should be entirely dropped?
One last thing: I would like to commend you (plural). As far as I can tell so far, this has been a civil, and thought-filled discussion, with no outbursts or other disruption. Believe me when I say that it's a pleasure to see : ) - jc37 20:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Spinrad wasn't able to stretch his one idea in Iron Dream to make a succesful novel out of it. It is boringly repetitive--probably the main reason it's so hard to find. A much better AH ad Hitlerum is where a present-day protagonist goes back in time to Vienna in the 1920s and convinces that city's Jewish art dealers and art critics to boost Adolf's career (beyond its real merits) so that he makes a living as an artist and never goes into politics. Who wrote this book? No one yet.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.8.166.178 ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
The basic concept of a "point of divergence" is already discussed in both the introduction and "introducing the paratime patrol", and the extra section titled "point of divergence" doesn't really add anything beyond discussing two examples in great detail (one of which was not even originally intended as alternate history, just future history which later became alternate history due to the failure of predictions like the Eugenics War). This seems pretty random, I'd be in favor of eliminating this section altogether, since the article is already quite long. Would anyone object to this? Hypnosifl 11:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Just letting the editors of this article know that there is a discussion on Talk:Alternate future about the encyclopedicness of that article that I think editors of alternate history fiction might be interested in participating in. — Lowellian ( reply) 20:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The link for the active Othertimelines messageboard has been deleted, it is clearly a legitimate alternate history site, and one of the larger forums on the web, I will resubmit it, and hope there is not additional vandalism. 217.84.164.160 01:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Why do we need *[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alternate-history Alternate History mailing list] in the article what does that provide and does it meet policy? Betacommand ( talk • contribs • Bot) 14:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Rationale:
The word "alternate" has two distinct meanings. The Compact OED defines it thus:
alternate [...]
adjective /awltrnt/
1 every other. 2 (of two things) each following and succeeded by the other in a regular pattern. 3 chiefly N. Amer. another term for ALTERNATIVE.
The word "alternative" has only closely related meanings that all apply to this subject. Therefore, the phrase "alternate history" is only correct for American English; in UK English, the phrase "alternative history" is preferred. "Alternative history," however, is perfectly acceptable in both variants of the language.
Wikipedia's guideline in the situation of diverging variants of English ( WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English) is to "[select] one that does not have multiple variant spellings if there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable and reasonable." It is clearly in the spirit of this suggestion to move to the more internationally acceptable title. JulesH 15:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
"Alternate" means going from one to the other and back; clearly the correct word here is "alternative". Confusing the two words is a common error, not just in the US, but an encyclopedia should strive to say what is correct rather than repeat the most popular errors or misconceptions. Patrick Neylan 14:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe there should be at least a brief description on the idea of alternate 'beings' as well. Alternate beings can be completely fiction or a fiction based on a real person.
It originally was:
"Another alternate timeline game is Freedom Fighters. In the games reality, the USSR is the first nation to create a nuclear weapon, leading to a communist Europe, expansion into Central and South America, and finally outright invasion of the US. The main focus of the game is about one mans joining the guerrilla resistance and aiding in the fight against the soviets, eventually pushing them out of New York."
It was so terribly written that I just had to cut it.
This section definitely merits a rewrite. It is very terrible written.
"Stories which were set in the future when they were written which has since come and passed (such as George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four) are not alternative history."
What if an official (canonical) sequel were to be written in 2005, which worked from the premise that the events in Nineteen Eighty-Four has actually occured, just as in the original? Would the original Nineteen Eighty-Four then become alternative history? -- Corvun 23:15, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, it would not. There's no POD in 1984. No specific POD, no AH. -- Jrittenh 7 July 2005 08:30 (UTC)
As For 1984 the POD is obvious (though at the time this was set in the "far" future) at some point (probably the late 1940's) the East and West get into a fight (I'm guessing Berlin), in the process the USSR takes over western Europe and an isolated UK forms common cause with the USA maybe even becoming a state (and taking along the colonies) this creates Oceania, in the havoc caused by the war the conditions are about the same as those of Russia in 1917. An English Socialist party stages a coup, it spreads to America and eventually is perverted by BB into the world we meet in the book. Tobias1 15:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought there was going to be official mediation here to set the article right. That was about a month ago now though... When is this happening?-- 84.12.59.87 19:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I can't see why mediating is needed any longer. Just present both viewpoints, "some students of AH argue X, others argue Y...." The persons who argued heatedly over the disputed point last year seem to have moved on. I frankly think official mediation is a waste of time on the point they were arguing.--9 May 2006
Why on earth would that be merged with this? All the examples given in that article are clearly not alternate histories. Goldfritha 02:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
A disgruntled member of the forums at alternatehistory.com keeps on deleting the link to the site? Since AH.com is the most comprehensive ah-themed website in the english language, the link should be included in the appropriate section. Is it possible to lock to stop this vandalism?
Id say it deserves mention. With all the censorship and chasing off of those with opposing viewpoints that goes on I dont see how its the "most comprehensive".
Any other person who removes the external link will be summarily blocked. User:Zoe| (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough on the phrasing of it, the terms are a little loaded. It certainly is promiment enough though that it's worth a mention, certainly more so then some of the other links, how about something along the lines of "a large web-based alternate history discussion board"? The vandal hasn't stopped, as of 2200 EST it has been changed again.
Alternatehistory.com has by nearly an order of magnitude the most active alternate history discussion forum on the net (I have no idea what the phrasing was after this deletion war, but I wrote an original phrasing specifically about being the largest AH *discussion board* on the net). It has approximately 1100 posts per day as of last month, generally 600-700 members who have posted within the last month, and an archive of nearly 700,000 posts. The second and third largest forums that I'm aware of were the newsgroup soc.history.what-if and othertimelines.com. I haven't checked the latest google stats but SHWI was averaging something like 120-150 posts per day in 2005 (and, unfortunately, continuously declining on a year-to-year basis). A quick glance at the Google stats indicates that SHWI has roughly the same number of archived posts, since its creation in 1992 (alternatehistory.com dates from late 2000). I don't know othertimelines.com's daily activity level (though it is nowhere near alternatehistory.com's) but it has about 125,000 posts total in its archive. - Ian M, board admin Ian M 02:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the notion alternatehistory.com is "the most active alternate history discussion forum". Yeah, theres quite a bit of traffic. However, most of the activity goes on in two chat rooms where AH is rarely ever discussed. Also, the most active members rarely ever post in the alt hist areas.
Not sure who this anonymous naysayer is, but it's no accident they don't post figures. Alternatehistory.com has 50% posts in chat, which leaves 550 posts per day in the purely on-topic forums. soc.history.what-if averaged 120 posts per day in 2005, including off-topic posting and trolls (which occur with regularity on the unmoderated newsgroup): http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_frm/thread/778af20335f71409/89d5e25ccf4f000a?lnk=st&q=&rnum=42#89d5e25ccf4f000a Hard to figure the activity level of othertimelines.com as it recently dropped a lot due to severe hacker attacks. The phpBB post count claims 80,000 archived posts in the mostly on-topic forums, but it's clear that this number of posts aren't actually visible. Anyway, that site isn't nearly as active either. Ian Montgomerie 07:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Saying Alternatehistory.com is "the most active alternate history discussion forum" is like saying MTV is the greatest music video channel on cable TV! Ah.com has heavy traffic. Certainly more than Unwritten History or Alternia from any vantage point. It doesnt change the fact that at least every other post has almost nothing to do with alternate history. Contrast that with othertimelines.com where most all posts are relevant to the stated purpose of the board. Nah, "most active" is too vague a term
It is the largest, and has more on-topic posts verifiable than any other group. Fadethebutcher 21:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Othertimelines has essentially died due to hacker/spamming activities. The community however still exists, in a very active undisclosed website. Although OTL still has the largest collection of esaily accesable AH TLs on the internet.
I've been posting a link to the active Othertimelines discussion board, and while its in there when I go to edit, it doesn't show up on the page, is the link section locked or something? If so I'd appreciate whoever has the power in inserting the link onto the page. Nevermind its working now, probably just some trouble with my machine. 217.84.184.73 23:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I have removed POV comments from the Fantasy section. Whether these "should" be called "pseudo-alternities" or not, the fact is that they are not so called. Goldfritha 23:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
An edit summary comment by recent editor says he or she is not sure PK Dick qualifies as a major writer. For the record, the prestigious Library of America is coming out with a Philip K. Dick volume next spring (I presume Man in a High Castle will be one of the novels included). Although I personally think the LOA's first choice of a science-fiction writer to honor should have been the incomparable Jack Vance, the LOA volume will certainly consolidate Dick's well deserved reputation as an important figure in mainstream as well as genre literature.--14 Sept 2006
Wikipedians who read alternate history should consider deploying this userbox {{ User:Erielhonan/UBX/Alt-history}} on their user page to be included in Category:Wikipedians_who_enjoy_alt-history. This userbox and category were started to create a wikicommunity that will strive to keep articles about alternate history up-to-date and up to Wikipedia standards. -- Erielhonan 01:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a vivid example I've never seen mentioned: that the fall of the USSR depended in large part on the untimely deaths of two men: Yuri Andropov being one. He was not planned to be a caretaker leader, his death after 11 months in office was truly unexpected. The plan was for him to be the hard-line Soviet leader for a good 20 years.
The other was Pope John Paul Ist, dead after--what?--10 days. Murdered? Maybe. Untimely, either way.
So then, imagine: no Polish Pope in the Vatican to defend Soldarity and Walesa against an Andropov-led Kremlin. No Gorbachev in the Kremlin to promulgate Glasnost and Perestroika.
A tremendously different recent history, due to the unexpected deaths of two men.
miguelj
Sorry, if this comment is placed wrongly. Just wanted to mention "Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad as an interesting piece of AH. It is a novel "by Adolf Hitler", if Hitler migrated to the U.S. in 1919 and became a sci-fi author, including an editorial note from the paralel history, which shows some context. 194.108.220.58 08:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Per this CfD discussion, it was suggested that the parentheses be removed from "fiction". The only reason not to do so was to match the article name. However, in light of the discussion, perhaps the parenteses should be removed from both the article and the category (which would make the article name: Alternate history fiction - which is currently a redirect). The category discussion is now "on hold" awaiting any thoughts or concerns that may be mentioned here. - jc37 15:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Please re-read the nomination, the discussion, and the closure. The main thing is that the category name should match the article name in most cases. And this case doesn't seem to be an exception to that.
We've already had a CfD on this, and my post was here unresponded to for well over a week. However, I am a strong proponent of Consensus can change, so I have no problem with the idea of starting a new discussion on this. The main thing I ask is that before this page is moved again, that a new CfD is started for the related category first, and then we can use that discussion as a model for determining consensus for the name for this page as well.
As for my own opinion, just a thought, but unless there is a concern that readers may be confused between alternative and alternate, perhaps "(fiction)" should be entirely dropped?
One last thing: I would like to commend you (plural). As far as I can tell so far, this has been a civil, and thought-filled discussion, with no outbursts or other disruption. Believe me when I say that it's a pleasure to see : ) - jc37 20:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Spinrad wasn't able to stretch his one idea in Iron Dream to make a succesful novel out of it. It is boringly repetitive--probably the main reason it's so hard to find. A much better AH ad Hitlerum is where a present-day protagonist goes back in time to Vienna in the 1920s and convinces that city's Jewish art dealers and art critics to boost Adolf's career (beyond its real merits) so that he makes a living as an artist and never goes into politics. Who wrote this book? No one yet.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.8.166.178 ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
The basic concept of a "point of divergence" is already discussed in both the introduction and "introducing the paratime patrol", and the extra section titled "point of divergence" doesn't really add anything beyond discussing two examples in great detail (one of which was not even originally intended as alternate history, just future history which later became alternate history due to the failure of predictions like the Eugenics War). This seems pretty random, I'd be in favor of eliminating this section altogether, since the article is already quite long. Would anyone object to this? Hypnosifl 11:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Just letting the editors of this article know that there is a discussion on Talk:Alternate future about the encyclopedicness of that article that I think editors of alternate history fiction might be interested in participating in. — Lowellian ( reply) 20:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The link for the active Othertimelines messageboard has been deleted, it is clearly a legitimate alternate history site, and one of the larger forums on the web, I will resubmit it, and hope there is not additional vandalism. 217.84.164.160 01:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Why do we need *[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alternate-history Alternate History mailing list] in the article what does that provide and does it meet policy? Betacommand ( talk • contribs • Bot) 14:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Rationale:
The word "alternate" has two distinct meanings. The Compact OED defines it thus:
alternate [...]
adjective /awltrnt/
1 every other. 2 (of two things) each following and succeeded by the other in a regular pattern. 3 chiefly N. Amer. another term for ALTERNATIVE.
The word "alternative" has only closely related meanings that all apply to this subject. Therefore, the phrase "alternate history" is only correct for American English; in UK English, the phrase "alternative history" is preferred. "Alternative history," however, is perfectly acceptable in both variants of the language.
Wikipedia's guideline in the situation of diverging variants of English ( WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English) is to "[select] one that does not have multiple variant spellings if there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable and reasonable." It is clearly in the spirit of this suggestion to move to the more internationally acceptable title. JulesH 15:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
"Alternate" means going from one to the other and back; clearly the correct word here is "alternative". Confusing the two words is a common error, not just in the US, but an encyclopedia should strive to say what is correct rather than repeat the most popular errors or misconceptions. Patrick Neylan 14:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe there should be at least a brief description on the idea of alternate 'beings' as well. Alternate beings can be completely fiction or a fiction based on a real person.
It originally was:
"Another alternate timeline game is Freedom Fighters. In the games reality, the USSR is the first nation to create a nuclear weapon, leading to a communist Europe, expansion into Central and South America, and finally outright invasion of the US. The main focus of the game is about one mans joining the guerrilla resistance and aiding in the fight against the soviets, eventually pushing them out of New York."
It was so terribly written that I just had to cut it.
This section definitely merits a rewrite. It is very terrible written.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
"Stories which were set in the future when they were written which has since come and passed (such as George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four) are not alternative history."
What if an official (canonical) sequel were to be written in 2005, which worked from the premise that the events in Nineteen Eighty-Four has actually occured, just as in the original? Would the original Nineteen Eighty-Four then become alternative history? -- Corvun 23:15, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, it would not. There's no POD in 1984. No specific POD, no AH. -- Jrittenh 7 July 2005 08:30 (UTC)
As For 1984 the POD is obvious (though at the time this was set in the "far" future) at some point (probably the late 1940's) the East and West get into a fight (I'm guessing Berlin), in the process the USSR takes over western Europe and an isolated UK forms common cause with the USA maybe even becoming a state (and taking along the colonies) this creates Oceania, in the havoc caused by the war the conditions are about the same as those of Russia in 1917. An English Socialist party stages a coup, it spreads to America and eventually is perverted by BB into the world we meet in the book. Tobias1 15:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought there was going to be official mediation here to set the article right. That was about a month ago now though... When is this happening?-- 84.12.59.87 19:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I can't see why mediating is needed any longer. Just present both viewpoints, "some students of AH argue X, others argue Y...." The persons who argued heatedly over the disputed point last year seem to have moved on. I frankly think official mediation is a waste of time on the point they were arguing.--9 May 2006
Why on earth would that be merged with this? All the examples given in that article are clearly not alternate histories. Goldfritha 02:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
A disgruntled member of the forums at alternatehistory.com keeps on deleting the link to the site? Since AH.com is the most comprehensive ah-themed website in the english language, the link should be included in the appropriate section. Is it possible to lock to stop this vandalism?
Id say it deserves mention. With all the censorship and chasing off of those with opposing viewpoints that goes on I dont see how its the "most comprehensive".
Any other person who removes the external link will be summarily blocked. User:Zoe| (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough on the phrasing of it, the terms are a little loaded. It certainly is promiment enough though that it's worth a mention, certainly more so then some of the other links, how about something along the lines of "a large web-based alternate history discussion board"? The vandal hasn't stopped, as of 2200 EST it has been changed again.
Alternatehistory.com has by nearly an order of magnitude the most active alternate history discussion forum on the net (I have no idea what the phrasing was after this deletion war, but I wrote an original phrasing specifically about being the largest AH *discussion board* on the net). It has approximately 1100 posts per day as of last month, generally 600-700 members who have posted within the last month, and an archive of nearly 700,000 posts. The second and third largest forums that I'm aware of were the newsgroup soc.history.what-if and othertimelines.com. I haven't checked the latest google stats but SHWI was averaging something like 120-150 posts per day in 2005 (and, unfortunately, continuously declining on a year-to-year basis). A quick glance at the Google stats indicates that SHWI has roughly the same number of archived posts, since its creation in 1992 (alternatehistory.com dates from late 2000). I don't know othertimelines.com's daily activity level (though it is nowhere near alternatehistory.com's) but it has about 125,000 posts total in its archive. - Ian M, board admin Ian M 02:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the notion alternatehistory.com is "the most active alternate history discussion forum". Yeah, theres quite a bit of traffic. However, most of the activity goes on in two chat rooms where AH is rarely ever discussed. Also, the most active members rarely ever post in the alt hist areas.
Not sure who this anonymous naysayer is, but it's no accident they don't post figures. Alternatehistory.com has 50% posts in chat, which leaves 550 posts per day in the purely on-topic forums. soc.history.what-if averaged 120 posts per day in 2005, including off-topic posting and trolls (which occur with regularity on the unmoderated newsgroup): http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_frm/thread/778af20335f71409/89d5e25ccf4f000a?lnk=st&q=&rnum=42#89d5e25ccf4f000a Hard to figure the activity level of othertimelines.com as it recently dropped a lot due to severe hacker attacks. The phpBB post count claims 80,000 archived posts in the mostly on-topic forums, but it's clear that this number of posts aren't actually visible. Anyway, that site isn't nearly as active either. Ian Montgomerie 07:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Saying Alternatehistory.com is "the most active alternate history discussion forum" is like saying MTV is the greatest music video channel on cable TV! Ah.com has heavy traffic. Certainly more than Unwritten History or Alternia from any vantage point. It doesnt change the fact that at least every other post has almost nothing to do with alternate history. Contrast that with othertimelines.com where most all posts are relevant to the stated purpose of the board. Nah, "most active" is too vague a term
It is the largest, and has more on-topic posts verifiable than any other group. Fadethebutcher 21:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Othertimelines has essentially died due to hacker/spamming activities. The community however still exists, in a very active undisclosed website. Although OTL still has the largest collection of esaily accesable AH TLs on the internet.
I've been posting a link to the active Othertimelines discussion board, and while its in there when I go to edit, it doesn't show up on the page, is the link section locked or something? If so I'd appreciate whoever has the power in inserting the link onto the page. Nevermind its working now, probably just some trouble with my machine. 217.84.184.73 23:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I have removed POV comments from the Fantasy section. Whether these "should" be called "pseudo-alternities" or not, the fact is that they are not so called. Goldfritha 23:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
An edit summary comment by recent editor says he or she is not sure PK Dick qualifies as a major writer. For the record, the prestigious Library of America is coming out with a Philip K. Dick volume next spring (I presume Man in a High Castle will be one of the novels included). Although I personally think the LOA's first choice of a science-fiction writer to honor should have been the incomparable Jack Vance, the LOA volume will certainly consolidate Dick's well deserved reputation as an important figure in mainstream as well as genre literature.--14 Sept 2006
Wikipedians who read alternate history should consider deploying this userbox {{ User:Erielhonan/UBX/Alt-history}} on their user page to be included in Category:Wikipedians_who_enjoy_alt-history. This userbox and category were started to create a wikicommunity that will strive to keep articles about alternate history up-to-date and up to Wikipedia standards. -- Erielhonan 01:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a vivid example I've never seen mentioned: that the fall of the USSR depended in large part on the untimely deaths of two men: Yuri Andropov being one. He was not planned to be a caretaker leader, his death after 11 months in office was truly unexpected. The plan was for him to be the hard-line Soviet leader for a good 20 years.
The other was Pope John Paul Ist, dead after--what?--10 days. Murdered? Maybe. Untimely, either way.
So then, imagine: no Polish Pope in the Vatican to defend Soldarity and Walesa against an Andropov-led Kremlin. No Gorbachev in the Kremlin to promulgate Glasnost and Perestroika.
A tremendously different recent history, due to the unexpected deaths of two men.
miguelj
Sorry, if this comment is placed wrongly. Just wanted to mention "Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad as an interesting piece of AH. It is a novel "by Adolf Hitler", if Hitler migrated to the U.S. in 1919 and became a sci-fi author, including an editorial note from the paralel history, which shows some context. 194.108.220.58 08:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Per this CfD discussion, it was suggested that the parentheses be removed from "fiction". The only reason not to do so was to match the article name. However, in light of the discussion, perhaps the parenteses should be removed from both the article and the category (which would make the article name: Alternate history fiction - which is currently a redirect). The category discussion is now "on hold" awaiting any thoughts or concerns that may be mentioned here. - jc37 15:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Please re-read the nomination, the discussion, and the closure. The main thing is that the category name should match the article name in most cases. And this case doesn't seem to be an exception to that.
We've already had a CfD on this, and my post was here unresponded to for well over a week. However, I am a strong proponent of Consensus can change, so I have no problem with the idea of starting a new discussion on this. The main thing I ask is that before this page is moved again, that a new CfD is started for the related category first, and then we can use that discussion as a model for determining consensus for the name for this page as well.
As for my own opinion, just a thought, but unless there is a concern that readers may be confused between alternative and alternate, perhaps "(fiction)" should be entirely dropped?
One last thing: I would like to commend you (plural). As far as I can tell so far, this has been a civil, and thought-filled discussion, with no outbursts or other disruption. Believe me when I say that it's a pleasure to see : ) - jc37 20:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Spinrad wasn't able to stretch his one idea in Iron Dream to make a succesful novel out of it. It is boringly repetitive--probably the main reason it's so hard to find. A much better AH ad Hitlerum is where a present-day protagonist goes back in time to Vienna in the 1920s and convinces that city's Jewish art dealers and art critics to boost Adolf's career (beyond its real merits) so that he makes a living as an artist and never goes into politics. Who wrote this book? No one yet.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.8.166.178 ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
The basic concept of a "point of divergence" is already discussed in both the introduction and "introducing the paratime patrol", and the extra section titled "point of divergence" doesn't really add anything beyond discussing two examples in great detail (one of which was not even originally intended as alternate history, just future history which later became alternate history due to the failure of predictions like the Eugenics War). This seems pretty random, I'd be in favor of eliminating this section altogether, since the article is already quite long. Would anyone object to this? Hypnosifl 11:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Just letting the editors of this article know that there is a discussion on Talk:Alternate future about the encyclopedicness of that article that I think editors of alternate history fiction might be interested in participating in. — Lowellian ( reply) 20:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The link for the active Othertimelines messageboard has been deleted, it is clearly a legitimate alternate history site, and one of the larger forums on the web, I will resubmit it, and hope there is not additional vandalism. 217.84.164.160 01:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Why do we need *[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alternate-history Alternate History mailing list] in the article what does that provide and does it meet policy? Betacommand ( talk • contribs • Bot) 14:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Rationale:
The word "alternate" has two distinct meanings. The Compact OED defines it thus:
alternate [...]
adjective /awltrnt/
1 every other. 2 (of two things) each following and succeeded by the other in a regular pattern. 3 chiefly N. Amer. another term for ALTERNATIVE.
The word "alternative" has only closely related meanings that all apply to this subject. Therefore, the phrase "alternate history" is only correct for American English; in UK English, the phrase "alternative history" is preferred. "Alternative history," however, is perfectly acceptable in both variants of the language.
Wikipedia's guideline in the situation of diverging variants of English ( WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English) is to "[select] one that does not have multiple variant spellings if there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable and reasonable." It is clearly in the spirit of this suggestion to move to the more internationally acceptable title. JulesH 15:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
"Alternate" means going from one to the other and back; clearly the correct word here is "alternative". Confusing the two words is a common error, not just in the US, but an encyclopedia should strive to say what is correct rather than repeat the most popular errors or misconceptions. Patrick Neylan 14:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe there should be at least a brief description on the idea of alternate 'beings' as well. Alternate beings can be completely fiction or a fiction based on a real person.
It originally was:
"Another alternate timeline game is Freedom Fighters. In the games reality, the USSR is the first nation to create a nuclear weapon, leading to a communist Europe, expansion into Central and South America, and finally outright invasion of the US. The main focus of the game is about one mans joining the guerrilla resistance and aiding in the fight against the soviets, eventually pushing them out of New York."
It was so terribly written that I just had to cut it.
This section definitely merits a rewrite. It is very terrible written.
"Stories which were set in the future when they were written which has since come and passed (such as George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four) are not alternative history."
What if an official (canonical) sequel were to be written in 2005, which worked from the premise that the events in Nineteen Eighty-Four has actually occured, just as in the original? Would the original Nineteen Eighty-Four then become alternative history? -- Corvun 23:15, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, it would not. There's no POD in 1984. No specific POD, no AH. -- Jrittenh 7 July 2005 08:30 (UTC)
As For 1984 the POD is obvious (though at the time this was set in the "far" future) at some point (probably the late 1940's) the East and West get into a fight (I'm guessing Berlin), in the process the USSR takes over western Europe and an isolated UK forms common cause with the USA maybe even becoming a state (and taking along the colonies) this creates Oceania, in the havoc caused by the war the conditions are about the same as those of Russia in 1917. An English Socialist party stages a coup, it spreads to America and eventually is perverted by BB into the world we meet in the book. Tobias1 15:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought there was going to be official mediation here to set the article right. That was about a month ago now though... When is this happening?-- 84.12.59.87 19:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I can't see why mediating is needed any longer. Just present both viewpoints, "some students of AH argue X, others argue Y...." The persons who argued heatedly over the disputed point last year seem to have moved on. I frankly think official mediation is a waste of time on the point they were arguing.--9 May 2006
Why on earth would that be merged with this? All the examples given in that article are clearly not alternate histories. Goldfritha 02:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
A disgruntled member of the forums at alternatehistory.com keeps on deleting the link to the site? Since AH.com is the most comprehensive ah-themed website in the english language, the link should be included in the appropriate section. Is it possible to lock to stop this vandalism?
Id say it deserves mention. With all the censorship and chasing off of those with opposing viewpoints that goes on I dont see how its the "most comprehensive".
Any other person who removes the external link will be summarily blocked. User:Zoe| (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough on the phrasing of it, the terms are a little loaded. It certainly is promiment enough though that it's worth a mention, certainly more so then some of the other links, how about something along the lines of "a large web-based alternate history discussion board"? The vandal hasn't stopped, as of 2200 EST it has been changed again.
Alternatehistory.com has by nearly an order of magnitude the most active alternate history discussion forum on the net (I have no idea what the phrasing was after this deletion war, but I wrote an original phrasing specifically about being the largest AH *discussion board* on the net). It has approximately 1100 posts per day as of last month, generally 600-700 members who have posted within the last month, and an archive of nearly 700,000 posts. The second and third largest forums that I'm aware of were the newsgroup soc.history.what-if and othertimelines.com. I haven't checked the latest google stats but SHWI was averaging something like 120-150 posts per day in 2005 (and, unfortunately, continuously declining on a year-to-year basis). A quick glance at the Google stats indicates that SHWI has roughly the same number of archived posts, since its creation in 1992 (alternatehistory.com dates from late 2000). I don't know othertimelines.com's daily activity level (though it is nowhere near alternatehistory.com's) but it has about 125,000 posts total in its archive. - Ian M, board admin Ian M 02:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the notion alternatehistory.com is "the most active alternate history discussion forum". Yeah, theres quite a bit of traffic. However, most of the activity goes on in two chat rooms where AH is rarely ever discussed. Also, the most active members rarely ever post in the alt hist areas.
Not sure who this anonymous naysayer is, but it's no accident they don't post figures. Alternatehistory.com has 50% posts in chat, which leaves 550 posts per day in the purely on-topic forums. soc.history.what-if averaged 120 posts per day in 2005, including off-topic posting and trolls (which occur with regularity on the unmoderated newsgroup): http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_frm/thread/778af20335f71409/89d5e25ccf4f000a?lnk=st&q=&rnum=42#89d5e25ccf4f000a Hard to figure the activity level of othertimelines.com as it recently dropped a lot due to severe hacker attacks. The phpBB post count claims 80,000 archived posts in the mostly on-topic forums, but it's clear that this number of posts aren't actually visible. Anyway, that site isn't nearly as active either. Ian Montgomerie 07:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Saying Alternatehistory.com is "the most active alternate history discussion forum" is like saying MTV is the greatest music video channel on cable TV! Ah.com has heavy traffic. Certainly more than Unwritten History or Alternia from any vantage point. It doesnt change the fact that at least every other post has almost nothing to do with alternate history. Contrast that with othertimelines.com where most all posts are relevant to the stated purpose of the board. Nah, "most active" is too vague a term
It is the largest, and has more on-topic posts verifiable than any other group. Fadethebutcher 21:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Othertimelines has essentially died due to hacker/spamming activities. The community however still exists, in a very active undisclosed website. Although OTL still has the largest collection of esaily accesable AH TLs on the internet.
I've been posting a link to the active Othertimelines discussion board, and while its in there when I go to edit, it doesn't show up on the page, is the link section locked or something? If so I'd appreciate whoever has the power in inserting the link onto the page. Nevermind its working now, probably just some trouble with my machine. 217.84.184.73 23:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I have removed POV comments from the Fantasy section. Whether these "should" be called "pseudo-alternities" or not, the fact is that they are not so called. Goldfritha 23:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
An edit summary comment by recent editor says he or she is not sure PK Dick qualifies as a major writer. For the record, the prestigious Library of America is coming out with a Philip K. Dick volume next spring (I presume Man in a High Castle will be one of the novels included). Although I personally think the LOA's first choice of a science-fiction writer to honor should have been the incomparable Jack Vance, the LOA volume will certainly consolidate Dick's well deserved reputation as an important figure in mainstream as well as genre literature.--14 Sept 2006
Wikipedians who read alternate history should consider deploying this userbox {{ User:Erielhonan/UBX/Alt-history}} on their user page to be included in Category:Wikipedians_who_enjoy_alt-history. This userbox and category were started to create a wikicommunity that will strive to keep articles about alternate history up-to-date and up to Wikipedia standards. -- Erielhonan 01:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a vivid example I've never seen mentioned: that the fall of the USSR depended in large part on the untimely deaths of two men: Yuri Andropov being one. He was not planned to be a caretaker leader, his death after 11 months in office was truly unexpected. The plan was for him to be the hard-line Soviet leader for a good 20 years.
The other was Pope John Paul Ist, dead after--what?--10 days. Murdered? Maybe. Untimely, either way.
So then, imagine: no Polish Pope in the Vatican to defend Soldarity and Walesa against an Andropov-led Kremlin. No Gorbachev in the Kremlin to promulgate Glasnost and Perestroika.
A tremendously different recent history, due to the unexpected deaths of two men.
miguelj
Sorry, if this comment is placed wrongly. Just wanted to mention "Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad as an interesting piece of AH. It is a novel "by Adolf Hitler", if Hitler migrated to the U.S. in 1919 and became a sci-fi author, including an editorial note from the paralel history, which shows some context. 194.108.220.58 08:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Per this CfD discussion, it was suggested that the parentheses be removed from "fiction". The only reason not to do so was to match the article name. However, in light of the discussion, perhaps the parenteses should be removed from both the article and the category (which would make the article name: Alternate history fiction - which is currently a redirect). The category discussion is now "on hold" awaiting any thoughts or concerns that may be mentioned here. - jc37 15:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Please re-read the nomination, the discussion, and the closure. The main thing is that the category name should match the article name in most cases. And this case doesn't seem to be an exception to that.
We've already had a CfD on this, and my post was here unresponded to for well over a week. However, I am a strong proponent of Consensus can change, so I have no problem with the idea of starting a new discussion on this. The main thing I ask is that before this page is moved again, that a new CfD is started for the related category first, and then we can use that discussion as a model for determining consensus for the name for this page as well.
As for my own opinion, just a thought, but unless there is a concern that readers may be confused between alternative and alternate, perhaps "(fiction)" should be entirely dropped?
One last thing: I would like to commend you (plural). As far as I can tell so far, this has been a civil, and thought-filled discussion, with no outbursts or other disruption. Believe me when I say that it's a pleasure to see : ) - jc37 20:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Spinrad wasn't able to stretch his one idea in Iron Dream to make a succesful novel out of it. It is boringly repetitive--probably the main reason it's so hard to find. A much better AH ad Hitlerum is where a present-day protagonist goes back in time to Vienna in the 1920s and convinces that city's Jewish art dealers and art critics to boost Adolf's career (beyond its real merits) so that he makes a living as an artist and never goes into politics. Who wrote this book? No one yet.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.8.166.178 ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
The basic concept of a "point of divergence" is already discussed in both the introduction and "introducing the paratime patrol", and the extra section titled "point of divergence" doesn't really add anything beyond discussing two examples in great detail (one of which was not even originally intended as alternate history, just future history which later became alternate history due to the failure of predictions like the Eugenics War). This seems pretty random, I'd be in favor of eliminating this section altogether, since the article is already quite long. Would anyone object to this? Hypnosifl 11:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Just letting the editors of this article know that there is a discussion on Talk:Alternate future about the encyclopedicness of that article that I think editors of alternate history fiction might be interested in participating in. — Lowellian ( reply) 20:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The link for the active Othertimelines messageboard has been deleted, it is clearly a legitimate alternate history site, and one of the larger forums on the web, I will resubmit it, and hope there is not additional vandalism. 217.84.164.160 01:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Why do we need *[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alternate-history Alternate History mailing list] in the article what does that provide and does it meet policy? Betacommand ( talk • contribs • Bot) 14:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Rationale:
The word "alternate" has two distinct meanings. The Compact OED defines it thus:
alternate [...]
adjective /awltrnt/
1 every other. 2 (of two things) each following and succeeded by the other in a regular pattern. 3 chiefly N. Amer. another term for ALTERNATIVE.
The word "alternative" has only closely related meanings that all apply to this subject. Therefore, the phrase "alternate history" is only correct for American English; in UK English, the phrase "alternative history" is preferred. "Alternative history," however, is perfectly acceptable in both variants of the language.
Wikipedia's guideline in the situation of diverging variants of English ( WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English) is to "[select] one that does not have multiple variant spellings if there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable and reasonable." It is clearly in the spirit of this suggestion to move to the more internationally acceptable title. JulesH 15:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
"Alternate" means going from one to the other and back; clearly the correct word here is "alternative". Confusing the two words is a common error, not just in the US, but an encyclopedia should strive to say what is correct rather than repeat the most popular errors or misconceptions. Patrick Neylan 14:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe there should be at least a brief description on the idea of alternate 'beings' as well. Alternate beings can be completely fiction or a fiction based on a real person.
It originally was:
"Another alternate timeline game is Freedom Fighters. In the games reality, the USSR is the first nation to create a nuclear weapon, leading to a communist Europe, expansion into Central and South America, and finally outright invasion of the US. The main focus of the game is about one mans joining the guerrilla resistance and aiding in the fight against the soviets, eventually pushing them out of New York."
It was so terribly written that I just had to cut it.
This section definitely merits a rewrite. It is very terrible written.