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Frequently asked questions Is Albany really "one of the oldest surviving settlements from the original Thirteen Colonies and the oldest continuously chartered city in the United States"?
Yes. While not the oldest surviving, continuously settled, settlement of the original Thirteen Colonies, the French fort of 1540 (see
History section) is the oldest European settlement that was then resettled and is currently inhabited; the phrase "one of the oldest surviving settlements" is used so as to avoid confusion (claiming "oldest" strictly leads some to believe the article is making claims it is not). Albany is also the oldest continuously chartered city, based on the fact that it is definitionally a
city (not just a settlement referred to as a city); New York City is the oldest chartered city, however it forfeited its original Dongan Charter in
Leisler's Rebellion (1689). While New York City did in fact reestablish itself under its original charter, for two years the charter was not in effect, making Albany's charter the longest-lasting, continuously active charter (see
History and
Government sections). Furthermore, New York City
consolidated in 1898 and adopted a new charter, which was further revised in 1938.
Nobody really knows what the "oldest" settlement in America is. Are you counting places where Native Americans lived? That's in the American Southwest. Are you saying it had to be "continuously settled"? Well define that, and find proof that at least one person lived there since the given date of settlement. It just can't be done. So we'll live with the "one of the oldest surviving settlements from the original Thirteen Colonies" claims, because, hey, it works. The description of Mayor Corning's (a Democrat) term seems partisan and biased, especially with what seem to be kudos going to Governor Rockefeller (a Republican) for his effort in development during the same time. Should this be rewritten?
No. While the two may be of different parties politically, there is no refuting the fact that Corning's tenure was known for its efforts in sustaining the status quo. Rockefeller, however, was known for his want to always develop. These are well-known and agreed-upon facts, as are the outcomes due to these policies that have become clear in the recent decades. Note also that major portions of the history section of this article were based on a book by Paul Grondahl (political affiliation unknown), which is generally fair but somewhat critical of Corning; other portions are based on a book by
John McEneny (
D)—a self-proclaimed Corning idolizer—which is also generally fair but somewhat supportive of Corning.
Facts are facts: Corning hated change and Rocky loved it. That's not to say this article praises or criticizes what Corning or Rocky did. Many are still unhappy that I-787 took over the waterfront (a Corning blunder) and many still I heard/saw a
McDonald's commercial that claimed that Albany was originally known as Kayderosseras (KI-yuh-DARE-uh-STARE-us), but it also said Beverwijck (BEH-ver-vike) was acceptable. Which is more correct, if either?
Beverwijck was definitely the first name of the settlement that eventually became the city of Albany. The community settled around
Fort Orange (later Fort Albany) and incorporated as a village in 1652.
This map shows what the small community looked like at the time; the village was within the protective stockade.
Kayderosseras was a large land patent dating to the early 18th century essentially making up the land north of the Mohawk River and west and south of the Hudson River (yes, south: the Hudson turns west as one travels closer to its source). The land was not within the borders of present Albany County (though it was back then since Albany County made up most of upstate New York) and it was not within Albany's city limits. This idea is false. Locals may recognize the name due to the creek in Saratoga County. Others will notice the distinct resemblance to the vanilla ice cream-orange sherbet swirl, Kaydeross Kreme, sold at Stewart's Shops; the name is not a coincidence, coming from the Saratoga Springs-based company. Don't trust a marketing campaign, at least not completely. There's not much mentioned about literature and film. I remember a book/movie/poem/etc. that had to do with, was written/produced in, etc. Albany. Why isn't it here?
Admittedly, the main authors of this article aren't 100% versed in the literature and film of Albany. If you know of something relating to this subject, please start a new thread below with the proposed content addition and someone will respond. Your content should meet the following criteria:
Looking forward to the suggestions! We can add stuff, but it must be relevant, interesting, and sourced. And it can't be too long; this article is already long as it is. Why isn't there a section on arts?
Good question. The main authors of this article admit they are not very familiar with the art community other than knowing that Art on Lark and the
Albany Institute of History and Art exist. Before rewriting this article, there was a section in
Culture called "Artistic community". We have no problem including it (in fact, we wish we could!), however we don't know where to find the sources necessary to verify the claims. The verbiage can be found
here. If you have sources (preferably online ones), feel free to update the draft and leave a comment on this talk page mentioning the change. Not until the section is complete will it go live, however.
We aren't trying to disenfranchise anyone, we just don't have verifiable sources to back up the original claims. And... we don't really know what we're talking about when it comes to this subject. |
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I am working my way through the Good articles listed at Places; having a quick look to see if they still meet the Good article criteria. I have landed on this article. After I've had a quick look, I'll leave a note here indicating if I have concerns or not.
In general, I see the process as this: 1) Give the article a quick look to see if there are obvious issues: maintenance tags, unsourced sections, excessive media, etc, resolving any minor issues as I do so; 2) If I have concerns, open a GAR to see how serious those concerns are, resolving them myself if they are not serious; 3) If during the GAR I feel that there is significant work to be done (more than I can or am willing to do myself), I will put the GAR on hold and notify the main contributors.
My aim and intention is to keep the article listed - I would rather the article was improved and kept listed than the article is delisted. Where a delisting seems likely due to the amount or nature of work needed being greater than I am able or willing to do alone, and the main contributors are unavailable or unable for whatever reason to do the work, then appropriate WikiProjects will be notified at least seven days before a delisting would take place. SilkTork ✔Tea time 21:32, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Can someone please help link to this orphaned article? Gbawden ( talk) 07:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
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I don't have time right now to gather the references to update this article, but in case someone else can get to it, I'm noting that the information about the public and charter schools is out of date. Several more charter schools have been closed in the last few years and according to the school district enrollment is increasing in their schools is increasing because of these closures, as well as increases in the school age population. Perhaps it would be better to eliminate such facts rather than have data that needs frequent updating to stay accurate. samtha25 ( talk) 19:19, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Agreed, it is grossly out of date and the city school district's *increase* in enrollment is dramatic. Will hunt down some refs.
DMorpheus2 (
talk) 18:54, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
What's the reasoning for removing the montage? I don't think age really matters, the (blocked) editor is throwing out the baby with the bathwater on this. It's not as if the skyline has been drastically altered.
If the disruptive editor keeps this up I will escalate the situation to ANI or SPI. Buffaboy talk 23:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
This
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The article states that "Beverwijck" translates as "Beaver District" in English. That is not correct. It is a literal translation of the words "bever" and "wijck" (modern Dutch: wijk), but Beverwijck was named after its Dutch counterpart in the province of North Holland and that name has nothing to do with beavers. You may check this reading the history of the Dutch village of Beverwijk. 82.95.79.140 ( talk) 07:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Much of the text in the introduction section sounds like it was written as a promotion for Albany. Such examples include "It marshalled the power of immigrants and their descendants in both cities", " Albany is known for its rich history, commerce, culture, architecture, and institutions of higher education", and "Albany has been a center of higher education for over a century", whatever that means. (Maybe define the meaning of "center"?) Also, there are several paragraphs of "Albany had the first x" between citations 11 & 12 that aren't cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:E488:5500:C132:6DBD:F85D:9AFA ( talk) 05:32, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
The second paragraph of this article is mostly incorrect. I am certain that most of the companies listed here (merrill lynch, american express, goldman sachs, general electric) are not headquartered in Albany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.252.38.101 ( talk) 13:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Currently the info box says
I'm deleting this because its location on the Hudson River is not at sea level (if it were, the river would not flow to the sea). Hopefully someone can find a source with the correct info (and check if the figure for highest elevation is correct). Loraof ( talk) 19:11, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article is a bit out of date, and can use a lick of paint meet the GA standards
Femke (alt) ( talk) 07:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
A few comments:
Thank you. Magnolia677 ( talk) 10:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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Frequently asked questions Is Albany really "one of the oldest surviving settlements from the original Thirteen Colonies and the oldest continuously chartered city in the United States"?
Yes. While not the oldest surviving, continuously settled, settlement of the original Thirteen Colonies, the French fort of 1540 (see
History section) is the oldest European settlement that was then resettled and is currently inhabited; the phrase "one of the oldest surviving settlements" is used so as to avoid confusion (claiming "oldest" strictly leads some to believe the article is making claims it is not). Albany is also the oldest continuously chartered city, based on the fact that it is definitionally a
city (not just a settlement referred to as a city); New York City is the oldest chartered city, however it forfeited its original Dongan Charter in
Leisler's Rebellion (1689). While New York City did in fact reestablish itself under its original charter, for two years the charter was not in effect, making Albany's charter the longest-lasting, continuously active charter (see
History and
Government sections). Furthermore, New York City
consolidated in 1898 and adopted a new charter, which was further revised in 1938.
Nobody really knows what the "oldest" settlement in America is. Are you counting places where Native Americans lived? That's in the American Southwest. Are you saying it had to be "continuously settled"? Well define that, and find proof that at least one person lived there since the given date of settlement. It just can't be done. So we'll live with the "one of the oldest surviving settlements from the original Thirteen Colonies" claims, because, hey, it works. The description of Mayor Corning's (a Democrat) term seems partisan and biased, especially with what seem to be kudos going to Governor Rockefeller (a Republican) for his effort in development during the same time. Should this be rewritten?
No. While the two may be of different parties politically, there is no refuting the fact that Corning's tenure was known for its efforts in sustaining the status quo. Rockefeller, however, was known for his want to always develop. These are well-known and agreed-upon facts, as are the outcomes due to these policies that have become clear in the recent decades. Note also that major portions of the history section of this article were based on a book by Paul Grondahl (political affiliation unknown), which is generally fair but somewhat critical of Corning; other portions are based on a book by
John McEneny (
D)—a self-proclaimed Corning idolizer—which is also generally fair but somewhat supportive of Corning.
Facts are facts: Corning hated change and Rocky loved it. That's not to say this article praises or criticizes what Corning or Rocky did. Many are still unhappy that I-787 took over the waterfront (a Corning blunder) and many still I heard/saw a
McDonald's commercial that claimed that Albany was originally known as Kayderosseras (KI-yuh-DARE-uh-STARE-us), but it also said Beverwijck (BEH-ver-vike) was acceptable. Which is more correct, if either?
Beverwijck was definitely the first name of the settlement that eventually became the city of Albany. The community settled around
Fort Orange (later Fort Albany) and incorporated as a village in 1652.
This map shows what the small community looked like at the time; the village was within the protective stockade.
Kayderosseras was a large land patent dating to the early 18th century essentially making up the land north of the Mohawk River and west and south of the Hudson River (yes, south: the Hudson turns west as one travels closer to its source). The land was not within the borders of present Albany County (though it was back then since Albany County made up most of upstate New York) and it was not within Albany's city limits. This idea is false. Locals may recognize the name due to the creek in Saratoga County. Others will notice the distinct resemblance to the vanilla ice cream-orange sherbet swirl, Kaydeross Kreme, sold at Stewart's Shops; the name is not a coincidence, coming from the Saratoga Springs-based company. Don't trust a marketing campaign, at least not completely. There's not much mentioned about literature and film. I remember a book/movie/poem/etc. that had to do with, was written/produced in, etc. Albany. Why isn't it here?
Admittedly, the main authors of this article aren't 100% versed in the literature and film of Albany. If you know of something relating to this subject, please start a new thread below with the proposed content addition and someone will respond. Your content should meet the following criteria:
Looking forward to the suggestions! We can add stuff, but it must be relevant, interesting, and sourced. And it can't be too long; this article is already long as it is. Why isn't there a section on arts?
Good question. The main authors of this article admit they are not very familiar with the art community other than knowing that Art on Lark and the
Albany Institute of History and Art exist. Before rewriting this article, there was a section in
Culture called "Artistic community". We have no problem including it (in fact, we wish we could!), however we don't know where to find the sources necessary to verify the claims. The verbiage can be found
here. If you have sources (preferably online ones), feel free to update the draft and leave a comment on this talk page mentioning the change. Not until the section is complete will it go live, however.
We aren't trying to disenfranchise anyone, we just don't have verifiable sources to back up the original claims. And... we don't really know what we're talking about when it comes to this subject. |
|
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Albany, New York has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
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I am working my way through the Good articles listed at Places; having a quick look to see if they still meet the Good article criteria. I have landed on this article. After I've had a quick look, I'll leave a note here indicating if I have concerns or not.
In general, I see the process as this: 1) Give the article a quick look to see if there are obvious issues: maintenance tags, unsourced sections, excessive media, etc, resolving any minor issues as I do so; 2) If I have concerns, open a GAR to see how serious those concerns are, resolving them myself if they are not serious; 3) If during the GAR I feel that there is significant work to be done (more than I can or am willing to do myself), I will put the GAR on hold and notify the main contributors.
My aim and intention is to keep the article listed - I would rather the article was improved and kept listed than the article is delisted. Where a delisting seems likely due to the amount or nature of work needed being greater than I am able or willing to do alone, and the main contributors are unavailable or unable for whatever reason to do the work, then appropriate WikiProjects will be notified at least seven days before a delisting would take place. SilkTork ✔Tea time 21:32, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Can someone please help link to this orphaned article? Gbawden ( talk) 07:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
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I don't have time right now to gather the references to update this article, but in case someone else can get to it, I'm noting that the information about the public and charter schools is out of date. Several more charter schools have been closed in the last few years and according to the school district enrollment is increasing in their schools is increasing because of these closures, as well as increases in the school age population. Perhaps it would be better to eliminate such facts rather than have data that needs frequent updating to stay accurate. samtha25 ( talk) 19:19, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Agreed, it is grossly out of date and the city school district's *increase* in enrollment is dramatic. Will hunt down some refs.
DMorpheus2 (
talk) 18:54, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
What's the reasoning for removing the montage? I don't think age really matters, the (blocked) editor is throwing out the baby with the bathwater on this. It's not as if the skyline has been drastically altered.
If the disruptive editor keeps this up I will escalate the situation to ANI or SPI. Buffaboy talk 23:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The article states that "Beverwijck" translates as "Beaver District" in English. That is not correct. It is a literal translation of the words "bever" and "wijck" (modern Dutch: wijk), but Beverwijck was named after its Dutch counterpart in the province of North Holland and that name has nothing to do with beavers. You may check this reading the history of the Dutch village of Beverwijk. 82.95.79.140 ( talk) 07:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Much of the text in the introduction section sounds like it was written as a promotion for Albany. Such examples include "It marshalled the power of immigrants and their descendants in both cities", " Albany is known for its rich history, commerce, culture, architecture, and institutions of higher education", and "Albany has been a center of higher education for over a century", whatever that means. (Maybe define the meaning of "center"?) Also, there are several paragraphs of "Albany had the first x" between citations 11 & 12 that aren't cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:E488:5500:C132:6DBD:F85D:9AFA ( talk) 05:32, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
The second paragraph of this article is mostly incorrect. I am certain that most of the companies listed here (merrill lynch, american express, goldman sachs, general electric) are not headquartered in Albany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.252.38.101 ( talk) 13:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Currently the info box says
I'm deleting this because its location on the Hudson River is not at sea level (if it were, the river would not flow to the sea). Hopefully someone can find a source with the correct info (and check if the figure for highest elevation is correct). Loraof ( talk) 19:11, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article is a bit out of date, and can use a lick of paint meet the GA standards
Femke (alt) ( talk) 07:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
A few comments:
Thank you. Magnolia677 ( talk) 10:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)