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Afghan conflict and anything related to its purposes and tasks. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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The result of the move request was: not moved at this time, per the discussion below, which shows no agreement that a move is advisable at this time. Of course, "extended and free discussion" on the topic can take place on the talk page as usual outside of the context of a move request. However, given the result of this discussion and the long history of move requests on this page ending as "not moved", it is worth considering that it appears unlikely that opinions on the topic are changing significantly and I would suggest building some degree of agreement before initiating a new request. Dekimasu よ! 02:34, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) → ? – Altogether these wars are not all the Afghanistan conflict, but separate conflicts that have taken place in Afghanistan. The way this article and name is set up now makes it look like this is a single conflict. The situation in Afghanistan differs from, say, Colombian conflict. I was thinking of changing to Internal conflict in Afghanistan, as 'Internal' takes into account the smaller regional conflicts that have taken place like the Taliban-ISIL conflict or the border skirmishes. Internal conflict in Myanmar uses this format as well.
Additionally I think this article needs a cutting down, since there is so much duplicates with the main articles - it reads almost like History of Afghanistan. Articles like Congolese Civil War and Insurgency in Yemen are simply bulleted lists of separate conflicts that have taken place, just as is the case in Afghanistan. WR 00:25, 12 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Vpab15 ( talk) 13:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
It is all a part of one conflict- the Afghan Civil War which began in 1978 and continues until today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4A:400:4280:8CEE:9FE2:26C7:D5B3 ( talk) 22:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
The article is very confused about its purpose: there are several different wars. The text also cites military interventions by foreign countries in Afghanistan as if they were civil wars. I don't understand how an international conflict that took place in the context of the Cold War ( Soviet–Afghan War) would be related to an international conflict of the War on Terror ( War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)). The correct thing would be to change the title to make it clear that this is a series of different conflicts.-- Fontaine347 ( talk) 13:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
The same question has been asked in the past by other editors on this subject. There were no satisfactory answers. See: Talk:Afghanistan conflict (1978–present)/Archive 1#reliable sources.-- Fontaine347 ( talk) 15:29, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Chris, "failing to come up with a recommended target" is not a weakness in this case. I left the door open for extended and free discussion rather than committing to one now. As mentioned I am currently leaning on Internal Conflict. WR 00:24, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
@ Dekimasu: @ Ribbet32: I think this request was closed prematurely and without consensus. As you can see, apart from one user who supported, there was a very valid comment from User:Fontaine347 that the article's current state is not clear.
User:Ribbet32 and User:Chris troutman are commenting that I didn't propose a title, yet completely ignoring any sort of discussion here. I voiced my personal support for a move to the title Internal conflict in Afghanistan, but did not outright put it in the proposal to leave the door open to discussion and others' views. I wonder how Ribbet32 and Chris troutman would have responded if I did directly state proposing a move to the title I consider best.
Taking my and Fontaine347's comments into account - i.e. that the current title may not be suitable or the best to reflect the content - it is imperative to at least have an in-depth discussion about its fate. -- WR 23:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
With the Taliban fully in power in most of the country, there isn't a big threat (at least for now) to threaten their rule. While there is still pockets of resistance around the Panjshir Valley and in the Andarab Valley, they can't pose a big threat. There are also ISIS-K (a sub group of the more well known group ISIS) pose some threat to the Taliban, which have actually attacked some parts of Afghanistan (like the Capital, Kabul), but are widely unpopular.
The Taliban has been placing strict Sharia laws which limit Women going to school and banning them from secondary schools and universites and strict punishments on crimes.
The Afghan people are getting poorer as the day go by, with people going as far and selling their children. NRFAWIKI ( talk) 17:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Without sourcing showing that reliable sources treat the
Soviet war in Afghanistan, the
Afghan civil war, the
US war in Afghanistan, and the present
ISIS insurgency as a single conflict-topic beginning in 1978 (which none of the sources presently cited in the article appear to do) this is basically
original research linking topics only related by the place in which they took place. Specifically,
it is a synthesis of sources to express a conclusion that none of them state. It is the equivalent of writing an article entitled
European conflict (1914-present). We already have articles on each of the individual wars that has taken place in Afghanistan during this period. We also have
list-articles on conflicts within Afghanistan, so this is basically duplication without sourcing to support it as a distinct topic. It is also is basically a
POVfork, based on the POV that all wars in Afghanistan since the Soviet invasion are basically one conflict.
Examples of sources that might help:
FOARP ( talk) 09:17, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) be
renamed and moved to
Afghan Conflict (1978–present).
result: Move logs:
source title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) → Afghan Conflict (1978–present) – The term for the “Afghanistan conflict” is not grammatical, the title for the Afghan conflict in should be used, similar to Afghan Mujahideen or others related with Afghanistan Eupakistani ( talk) 10:57
that argument doesn't make a strong case for "Afghanistan conflict" over "Afghan conflict". I would read this as preferring "Afghan conflict"? Also, you might view this evidence, which compares the relative usage of the two terms. Cinderella157 ( talk) 00:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Fixing the title improves things, but ultimately the page is still a massive WP:SYNTH based on the POV that the Soviet, Afghan civil war, US/NATO, Taliban-ISIS, Panshir valley wars in Afghanistan were all ultimately a single conflict. No source actually supports this: the best that anyone has been able to do is produce one (1) book describing some of them as the "Afghan wars" - that is "wars" plural. No-one would write an article called " Europe conflict" about WW1 and WW2 together based simply on the fact that there are books that cover the world wars together, because even if they are covered in the same book they are addressed as separate conflicts.
Looking back through the edit-history I can see that this page is seemingly the result of a whole slew of undiscussed moves and edit-wars, based originally on the WP:OR POV that there was an "Afghan civil war" (this page's original title and where it stayed for most of its first five years) that had been continuing since 1978. It has been repeatedly pointed out over this time by various editors that no source actually says that these are single conflict. TBH I'm not sure how to fix this other than taking it to AFD but frankly the drama doesn't seem to make it worthwhile.
I've tagged the estimate of people killed as dubious - this is because taking different estimates with different confidence-intervals collected at different times and adding them together is just poor methodology and arrives at a conclusion that none of them state (which is the essence of WP:SYNTH). Again, I don't think this can be fixed because ultimately there are no reliable independent sources that even cover all of this as a single conflict, and no total estimate collated with consistent methodology for the whole period. This is especially the case given that the date given is 2014, before at least two of the conflicts this article asserts were part of this even began. FOARP ( talk) 09:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
A coup led by the People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA), eighteen months before, had created an unexpected but seismic shift in Afghanistan. Upon coming to power, the leaders of the PDPA had announced: ‘The last remnants of imperialist tyranny and despotism have been put to an end.’ This pronouncement hinted at the aspirations of the PDPA, whose socialist intentions soon became apparent. Afghanistan’s new rulers sought the total reshaping of Afghan society and politics: the creation of a new, modern, socialist Afghanistan. However, what might have been just one in a series of twentieth-century coups turned into a civil war.
[...]
The Islamists found supportive allies in Pakistan, Iran, and the Muslim world, while the PDPA’s Soviet allies chose to take extreme action to maintain Afghan socialism, launching their invasion in December 1979. The Soviet intervention would explode an already violent conflict into a decades-long war whose ramifications continue to be felt across the world.
This is the
talk page for discussing
Afghan conflict and anything related to its purposes and tasks. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
The result of the move request was: not moved at this time, per the discussion below, which shows no agreement that a move is advisable at this time. Of course, "extended and free discussion" on the topic can take place on the talk page as usual outside of the context of a move request. However, given the result of this discussion and the long history of move requests on this page ending as "not moved", it is worth considering that it appears unlikely that opinions on the topic are changing significantly and I would suggest building some degree of agreement before initiating a new request. Dekimasu よ! 02:34, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) → ? – Altogether these wars are not all the Afghanistan conflict, but separate conflicts that have taken place in Afghanistan. The way this article and name is set up now makes it look like this is a single conflict. The situation in Afghanistan differs from, say, Colombian conflict. I was thinking of changing to Internal conflict in Afghanistan, as 'Internal' takes into account the smaller regional conflicts that have taken place like the Taliban-ISIL conflict or the border skirmishes. Internal conflict in Myanmar uses this format as well.
Additionally I think this article needs a cutting down, since there is so much duplicates with the main articles - it reads almost like History of Afghanistan. Articles like Congolese Civil War and Insurgency in Yemen are simply bulleted lists of separate conflicts that have taken place, just as is the case in Afghanistan. WR 00:25, 12 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Vpab15 ( talk) 13:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
It is all a part of one conflict- the Afghan Civil War which began in 1978 and continues until today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4A:400:4280:8CEE:9FE2:26C7:D5B3 ( talk) 22:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
The article is very confused about its purpose: there are several different wars. The text also cites military interventions by foreign countries in Afghanistan as if they were civil wars. I don't understand how an international conflict that took place in the context of the Cold War ( Soviet–Afghan War) would be related to an international conflict of the War on Terror ( War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)). The correct thing would be to change the title to make it clear that this is a series of different conflicts.-- Fontaine347 ( talk) 13:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
The same question has been asked in the past by other editors on this subject. There were no satisfactory answers. See: Talk:Afghanistan conflict (1978–present)/Archive 1#reliable sources.-- Fontaine347 ( talk) 15:29, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Chris, "failing to come up with a recommended target" is not a weakness in this case. I left the door open for extended and free discussion rather than committing to one now. As mentioned I am currently leaning on Internal Conflict. WR 00:24, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
@ Dekimasu: @ Ribbet32: I think this request was closed prematurely and without consensus. As you can see, apart from one user who supported, there was a very valid comment from User:Fontaine347 that the article's current state is not clear.
User:Ribbet32 and User:Chris troutman are commenting that I didn't propose a title, yet completely ignoring any sort of discussion here. I voiced my personal support for a move to the title Internal conflict in Afghanistan, but did not outright put it in the proposal to leave the door open to discussion and others' views. I wonder how Ribbet32 and Chris troutman would have responded if I did directly state proposing a move to the title I consider best.
Taking my and Fontaine347's comments into account - i.e. that the current title may not be suitable or the best to reflect the content - it is imperative to at least have an in-depth discussion about its fate. -- WR 23:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
With the Taliban fully in power in most of the country, there isn't a big threat (at least for now) to threaten their rule. While there is still pockets of resistance around the Panjshir Valley and in the Andarab Valley, they can't pose a big threat. There are also ISIS-K (a sub group of the more well known group ISIS) pose some threat to the Taliban, which have actually attacked some parts of Afghanistan (like the Capital, Kabul), but are widely unpopular.
The Taliban has been placing strict Sharia laws which limit Women going to school and banning them from secondary schools and universites and strict punishments on crimes.
The Afghan people are getting poorer as the day go by, with people going as far and selling their children. NRFAWIKI ( talk) 17:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Without sourcing showing that reliable sources treat the
Soviet war in Afghanistan, the
Afghan civil war, the
US war in Afghanistan, and the present
ISIS insurgency as a single conflict-topic beginning in 1978 (which none of the sources presently cited in the article appear to do) this is basically
original research linking topics only related by the place in which they took place. Specifically,
it is a synthesis of sources to express a conclusion that none of them state. It is the equivalent of writing an article entitled
European conflict (1914-present). We already have articles on each of the individual wars that has taken place in Afghanistan during this period. We also have
list-articles on conflicts within Afghanistan, so this is basically duplication without sourcing to support it as a distinct topic. It is also is basically a
POVfork, based on the POV that all wars in Afghanistan since the Soviet invasion are basically one conflict.
Examples of sources that might help:
FOARP ( talk) 09:17, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) be
renamed and moved to
Afghan Conflict (1978–present).
result: Move logs:
source title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) → Afghan Conflict (1978–present) – The term for the “Afghanistan conflict” is not grammatical, the title for the Afghan conflict in should be used, similar to Afghan Mujahideen or others related with Afghanistan Eupakistani ( talk) 10:57
that argument doesn't make a strong case for "Afghanistan conflict" over "Afghan conflict". I would read this as preferring "Afghan conflict"? Also, you might view this evidence, which compares the relative usage of the two terms. Cinderella157 ( talk) 00:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Fixing the title improves things, but ultimately the page is still a massive WP:SYNTH based on the POV that the Soviet, Afghan civil war, US/NATO, Taliban-ISIS, Panshir valley wars in Afghanistan were all ultimately a single conflict. No source actually supports this: the best that anyone has been able to do is produce one (1) book describing some of them as the "Afghan wars" - that is "wars" plural. No-one would write an article called " Europe conflict" about WW1 and WW2 together based simply on the fact that there are books that cover the world wars together, because even if they are covered in the same book they are addressed as separate conflicts.
Looking back through the edit-history I can see that this page is seemingly the result of a whole slew of undiscussed moves and edit-wars, based originally on the WP:OR POV that there was an "Afghan civil war" (this page's original title and where it stayed for most of its first five years) that had been continuing since 1978. It has been repeatedly pointed out over this time by various editors that no source actually says that these are single conflict. TBH I'm not sure how to fix this other than taking it to AFD but frankly the drama doesn't seem to make it worthwhile.
I've tagged the estimate of people killed as dubious - this is because taking different estimates with different confidence-intervals collected at different times and adding them together is just poor methodology and arrives at a conclusion that none of them state (which is the essence of WP:SYNTH). Again, I don't think this can be fixed because ultimately there are no reliable independent sources that even cover all of this as a single conflict, and no total estimate collated with consistent methodology for the whole period. This is especially the case given that the date given is 2014, before at least two of the conflicts this article asserts were part of this even began. FOARP ( talk) 09:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
A coup led by the People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA), eighteen months before, had created an unexpected but seismic shift in Afghanistan. Upon coming to power, the leaders of the PDPA had announced: ‘The last remnants of imperialist tyranny and despotism have been put to an end.’ This pronouncement hinted at the aspirations of the PDPA, whose socialist intentions soon became apparent. Afghanistan’s new rulers sought the total reshaping of Afghan society and politics: the creation of a new, modern, socialist Afghanistan. However, what might have been just one in a series of twentieth-century coups turned into a civil war.
[...]
The Islamists found supportive allies in Pakistan, Iran, and the Muslim world, while the PDPA’s Soviet allies chose to take extreme action to maintain Afghan socialism, launching their invasion in December 1979. The Soviet intervention would explode an already violent conflict into a decades-long war whose ramifications continue to be felt across the world.