I'm uncomfortable with that phrasing for the 'education' or 'perspectives' section. How about we rename to say, 'Perspectives on educating adolescents about sexuality'? Sexperts 21:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
See adolescent sexuality That article is mean't to have a GLOBAL COVERAGE of the subject so i think this article should be deleted and/or simply redirect to the main article as its creation along with adolescent sexuality in Britain and adolescent sexuality in the United States would put undue strain on the wiki servers if so many articles are created.
We have a main article, let's use it! We can easily integrate what is here into the main article once protection is removed and disputes have been resolved... then text can be mined for POV'S etc, and we can perhaps put major pov's into a seperate article on controversy over adolescent sexuality as has been proposed by myself in talk:adolescent sexuality —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nateland ( talk • contribs) 21:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
This article is biased. It uses questionable research and quotations of sweeping breadth to support a specifc moral agenda on teen sexuality. Its point of view is Victorian Age Christianity which it tries to disguise in pseudo-scientific terms. It should be deleted unless Wikipedia allows pure propaganda as opposed to clearly identified opinions.
DialM4Mayhem 21:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)DialMrMayhem
I feel that this doesn't meet the GA criteria for two reasons, so I have failed it. In my opinion, although the article is very well sourced, it fails WP:WIAGA criteria numbers 1 and 4. Specifically, although the article does attempt to be thorough, it has a loose framework and mainly seems to have text in order to hold together citations and quotes that the authors wanted to include. I also really can't describe an article as "well written" when from start to finish, it does a significant portion of its exposition through direct quotes. It also, I think, fails criterion 4 (neutrality) as it seems to spend a lot of time on the viewpoint that adolescents view sex lightly. While there are lots of inline citations, the justification for all those claims strikes me as very anecdotal, and continually quoting the sources in the text seems overly deferential to the sources that have been selected. I'm not saying that the conclusions aren't justified, I just feel like this reads more like a research paper with a position than an attempt to present all viewpoints. Mango juice talk 16:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the section, yet again. It was removed intentionally not by mistake. Besides it being uncited, unreferenced POV, it discusses the current U.S. government view, and not past views. With the recent change in congress, who knows what views the current government has or will espouse. I don't see how the text, even if supported by citation, is relevant or adds to the understanding of the topic of the article. Please try to develop something sunstantive, rather than throwing in a stub that doesn't stand on its own to ffer value to the article. And please cite.
"Official Federal government policy has been to emphasize sexual abstinence or pre-marital chastity, particularly in sex education with a focus on abstinence-only sex education addressing issues of sexual activity by adolescents rather than the harm reduction approach of the safer sex focus. "
Atom 00:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I added the original section - for the article to be improved something on official responses is required, it would certainly provide useful context for US adolescents who may access the article. As an Australian I am amazed at the US discussion at times, the latest reportage on HPV vaccination being an example. Paul foord 22:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned about the balance of the article. It looks as if it was originally written as an article against adolescent sexuality, rather than to present a balanced view of ther facts related to the topic. The viewpoint that learning about sexuality during adolescence is normal and healthy should be the predominant message. Discussing the many difficulties, pitfalls and problems with going to quickly certainly should be discussed. It should be the goal of the article to present the topic in a realistic light. The key to building healthy long-term relationships is in learning about sexuality and relationships while in adolescence, and avoiding the pitfalls mentioned in the article. Avoiding learning about these issues is what is responsible for the many difficulties adults in their 20's and sometimes 30's have. If they had been exposed to learning about intimacy appropriately when they were developing emotionally, they would have less problems later. Atom 17:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Atomaton, as I have said on your talk page, I really think it does a disservice to the experts quoted here, not to mention the article itself, to pigeon hole the information presented on adolescent sexuality as either being for or against. Having read many of their works I know they hold much more nuanced positions then "yes its a good thing" or "no its a bad thing." Further, much of the information you keep putting under "perspectives against" is really just opposed to casual sex among teens, not sexuality in general. I've removed the sections again, but before it turns into an edit war I will be asking for a Wikipedia:Third opinion. -- Illuminato 22:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Please hold on for a moment-providing an informed opinion here is going to mean having a quick look at the cited sources, and there are quite a few here. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 05:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Article text: "The "early initiation [of] sexual behaviors [takes] a toll on teens' mental health. The result... can be 'dependency on boyfriends and girlfriends, serious depression around breakups and cheating, [and a] lack of goals.'"[9] When teens engage in sexual activities that are not part of intimate relationship then "they're not then developing all of the really important skills like trust and communication and all those things that are the key ingredients for a healthy, long-lasting relationship."[16] When having causal sex teens are "pretending to say it's just sexual and nothing else. That's an arbitrary slicing up of the intimacy pie. It's not healthy."[17]
USA Today:
"All of us in the field are still trying to get a handle on how much of this is going on and trying to understand it from a young person's point of view," says Stephanie Sanders, associate director of The Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender and Reproduction at Indiana University, which investigates sexual behavior and sexual health."
""If we are indeed headed as a culture to have a total disconnect between intimate sexual behavior and emotional connection, we're not forming the basis for healthy adult relationships," says James Wagoner, president of Advocates for Youth, a reproductive-health organization in Washington."
The article reports one side of this as true, while many others say the jury is still out or that there is insufficient data. We must not take sides this way, reporting all views in a debate or contested issue is a critical part of neutrality. The article must mention the expert disagreement.
Article text: "Increasingly, teenage sexual encounters in the United States do not occur in the context of a romantic relationship, but in an impersonal, merely sexual "hook up."
USA Today: "Researchers cannot conclude that the percentage of teens having oral sex is greater than in the past. There is no comparison data for girls, and numbers for boys are about the same as they were a decade ago in the National Survey of Adolescent Males: Currently, 38.8% have given oral sex vs. 38.6% in 1995; 51.5% have received it vs. 49.4% in 1995."
Again, looks like the jury's out here.
Those are only a couple of examples, but to respond to the third opinion-the whole article has glaring POV problems like this. I see some researchers saying "This is bad", some saying "This is fine", and yet others saying "The data is insufficient, and we can't know what effect this will have on the kids until they actually do grow up." The article, in contrast, approaches the subject with overwhelming negativity. While those who take a negative view should certainly be reported, this article gives those voices a significant amount of undue weight.
Oh, as to what the third opinion asked about, I agree that "for" and "against" sections would be highly counterproductive here-most of the experts cited have a much more nuanced view, and we would do our readers a far greater service in properly paraphrasing those views, providing countervailing ones, and having a good neutral article, then trying to pigeonhole nuanced expert views (which may contain elements of neither or both) into arbitrary categories. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 05:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
We disagree. Sorry, but there are clearyl distinct views on the subject. Most of the content here is a POV oriented around suggesting that they are against adolescent sexuality. I am fine with that view being presented. But, trying to make a "neutral" article isn;t possible. The "nuanced" views as you call it, can be expressed to support the different viewpoints. I respect that you would like it to be different. I hope that you respect that these issues happen all of the time on Wikipedia, which is why we have a firm WP:NPOV policy to help deal with that. Atom 21:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't wish to escalate anything, but I don't see how you continuing to remove section headings that show the broad differences on the issue is productive in preventing that. If/when the article is better written, and more than a collection of quotes on one side of the fence (regardless of the broader views of those individual authors, not completely expressed in the quotes) I can see it being necessary to express that their are firm viewpoints on both sides of the issue. Why not start developing that now? Atom 23:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Atom, you keep removing the line about such relationships being "less sustained, often not monogamous and with lower levels of satisfaction" because you think it just someones opinion, and not fact. However, if you check the source, you will see it comes from a 28-year study, where Collins and his colleagues followed 180 individuals from birth. I've reinstated that sentence, again. -- Illuminato 22:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I did not remove it because I felt that the quote was not accurate. I removed it because the comment, from a basic editorial perspective, does not have a place there. How is that opinion (even if made by a psychologist who has done research) support what is being said in the article? Showing a bias for monogamy doesn't help the quote either. Monogampy versue polyamory doesn;t have any relevance in that section. Many people fine polyamory to be more satisfying and more sustained than monogamy, but that also doesn't have relevance in the section in the article. I was being balanced in trying to remove the quote, as the other alternative is to drag more of that authors study into the article. We can do that if you prefer, but I am not sure that will improve the quality of the article. Atom 23:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
What about the option, "I wanted to have sex very badly"? It seems to me that this option has been overlooked by this study and thus is biased. This option seems to me to be a main reason why someone would want to have sex: because they wanted to!. For example, if I were faced with this poll, my answer in essay form would be "Because I was horny," but in this multiple-choice poll it might be any of these reasons simply because the main reason for wanting to have sex, which is wanting to have sex, was overlooked. -- Strangerer ( Talk | Contribs) 23:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, that wasn't included in the survey. (Believe me, at this time I was DESPERATE to find something to counterbalance the bias of this article and this is all that I could find that Illuminato and his IP adress 'side kick' didn't delete. Although yes, it IS limited in that respect.
"Almost half of boys (47%) believe that oral sex is "not a big deal" but only slightly more than a third of girls (38%) feel the same way."
Discuss at Talk:Adolescent sexuality. Iamcuriousblue 21:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
if you follow the link for oxytocin it says that its part of both sex and bonding. i dont get what is totally disputed about that?
Iamcuriousblue, what is the factual accuracy that you are disputing? -- Illuminato 05:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Illuminato, we've given you dozens of specifics. Going into very deep detail multiple times over months of debate. You've either dodged the questions, denied them, reverted them, or used other unfair means to control this and other articles. You ARE a gatekeeper. And your censorship (Yes i'm calling it that.) of this article is an undeniable (except to you) problem. HOW MANY TIMES have we sugested things that need fixing, improvement, or otherwise?. Even while you delete and archive discussions to feign innocence. YOU know you've violated wikipedia policy and the trust and respect of other editors numerous times.
You won't listen to reason, you won't listen to a vast majority consensus, you won't follow the guidelines of the site you're editing, you push your point of view onto articles despite the cries of everyone else.
You are as bad as the 'emotional distress and psychological damage' you talk about so much. Illuminato, I can tell you're realizing you can't control articles based on adolescent sexuality forever. I've seen it coming and it is now happening.
A growing majority is pushing back against you. And you fight back ever more viciously, I urge you. STOP NOW. Before it's too late and you lose the last ounce of respect we might have for you and your opinions.
It's true that they say "The more endangered an animal gets, the harder it will fight back". Illuminato, i'm comparing you to that animal. And I think it's an accurate comparison.
With your views as the animal, the endangerment coming from the other side that disagrees with your actions. But you're a human, (I'm guessing), you're sentient. So don't act like an animal. Drop your opinions, I have long since resolved to not try and force my POV into the article and only to try and make it factual.
Do the same. I beg of you. On behalf of your sense of morality, and virtue, and value. And on behalf of me, you, and everyone else involved in editing this article.
It has been 4 months. Let it be enough! contribute wisely and let this article be neutral... Isn't that enough? Nateland 02:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless you can prove, or at least question, the factual accuracy of X, Y and Z then the tag should go What do you think I and others have been doing for the past four months?. Look through the talk pages, histories, links, this and that. Of course you won't, because you dodge the truth. And even an appeal to your sense of morality is ineffectual. Good god, this is crazy. Nateland 22:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Jesus, can't you read Illuminato? There's a section right above this one titled "oxytocin" – it links to a Slate article pointing out that the oxytocin hypothesis bandied about by abstinence advocates is pure junk science. The tags definitely should not go – the tags state that the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed. You bet they're disputed – I'm formally disputing them! You've already been blatantly disregarding WP:NPOV for at least 4 months. I'll take removal of the tags on this article as evidence that you intend to disregard WP:OWN as well. Iamcuriousblue 23:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Illuminato, you or someone else must have removed that section saying adolescent sexual activity can cause problems with relationships in the future. I'll track the last revision which included that statement. Anyways, this conversation is going nowhere. User:Illuminato, you've been adverse to any discussion that jeopardizes your control of the article. Nateland 23:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
When engaging in sexual acts the body produces oxytocin, a chemical produced in the brain to promote feelings of connection and love. Oxytocin helps a mother bond with her infant during breast feeding[30] and "surges through the bodies of men and women during orgasm."[31] When a man achieves orgasm, his oxytocin levels can rise up to 500% of their normal levels.[32] When "a man ejaculates, he bonds utterly with" his partner.[33] When having causal sex teens are "pretending to say it's just sexual and nothing else. That's an arbitrary slicing up of the intimacy pie. It's not healthy."[34] Depression, alcohol abuse, anorexia, and emotional disturbance can all afflict adolescents as a result.[27]
first off, that whole paragraph seems waaayy out of place. Second of all, you contradict yourself Illuminato, this makes it seem like casual causes people to bond.
Third off. A HYPOTHESIS?, are you aware of the scientific method and spectrum?. A hypothesis isn't even a theory!. Hypothesis don't even have to be tested out, you can make a hypothesis saying "Dogs are really worms" and it doesn't have to be tested. Yet it'll still be considered a hypothesis.
Hypothesis don't belong in wikipedia except under very special circumstances which I doubt 'oxytocin' fits into. Maybe if it was a theory (1 step up on the scale) It'd be acceptable. But a hypothesis?, give me a break!. It doesn't matter who cites it. A hypothesis is still unable to prove anything. (I can't stress this enough). It needs to go Nateland 22:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Refuting what you can, and dodging what you can't as usual.... Anyways, my main point is that. What in the hell is a paragraph on Oxytocin doing in the middle of an article on adolescent sexuality?. It's as off as that Lynn Ponton quote.
My god, tell me and don't dodge this. What does a paragraph saying what Oxytocin is do to improve this articles coverage of what adolescent sexuality is?. It's almost, but not quite as out of place as saying.
Apples are fruits. In the middle of an article on genetic engineering. (Except Oxytocin and Adolescent sexuality are both within the scope of Sexology. But are widely different sub studies).
Oh yes, Illuminato. You were calling that paragraph on Oxytocin a hypothesis.
It is slanted. It's mostly anti-sexual and I'm sick and tired of constantly citing why. It's a bit less in violation of
WP:NPOV now then it was before but it still needs a lot of work. Which can't get done because of your endless list of reverts. Oh no, it has two sentences on views that don't think adolescent sexuality is bad and fifty that say it is. While it might not be as extreme a slant as that, it's still noticeable. And your actions only keep that problem in existence.
Hello, I have looked at some of the sources and found that some of the information in the article had serious omissions with respect to the text in the article. I will go through parts to show the changes I have made, since it may be difficult to see what happened in the edit summary.
Previous text | Edited text |
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Increasingly, teenage sexual encounters in the United States do not occur in the context of a romantic relationship, but in an impersonal, merely sexual hookup. [2] More than half of sexually active teens have had sexual partners they are not dating. [3] [4] This is a "a genuine and puzzling change in teen sexual behavior" [5] and a "profound shift in the culture of high school dating and sex." [6] One thing "nearly everyone agrees on is that STDs and risky 'anything but intercourse' behaviors are rampant among teens." [7] | Increasingly, teenage sexual encounters in the United States do not occur in the context of a romantic relationship, but in a merely sexual hookup. [2] More than half of sexually active teens have had sexual partners they are not dating. [3] [4] Social critic Caitlin Flanagan calls this a "a genuine and puzzling change in teen sexual behavior" [5]; food and travel lifestyle writer Alexandra Hall terms it a "profound shift in the culture of high school dating and sex." [6] Sexual behaviors that involve 'anything but intercourse' and sexually transmitted diseases are widespread among teenagers; Lloyd Kolbe, director of the CDC's Adolescent and School Health program, called it "a serious epidemic." [7] While 90% of teens surveyed in a poll commissioned by NBC News and People magazine knew they could get an STD from having sexual intercourse, only 67% said that they use protection every time they have sex. [4] |
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In 2002 the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health reported a "dramatic trend toward the early initiation of sex." [8] The teenage years are when most in the United States first have intercourse. The current data suggests that by the time a person turns 18 slightly more than half of females and nearly two-thirds of males will have had intercourse. [9] | In 2002, the
National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health reported that the percentage of teenagers who report having had sexual intercourse declined between 1988 and 1998, but also reported a significant trend toward early initiation of sex. In 1998, 50% of teenage females and 55% of males reported ever having had sexual intercourse, a change from 53% and 60% a decade before. In 1998, 19% of adolescent females 14 years of age and younger reported having had sexual intercourse, but ten years earlier, this number was 10%.
[10] Before "age 15, a majority of first intercourse experiences among females are reported to be non-voluntary."
[9]
[11]
The teenage years are when most in the United States first have intercourse. The current data suggests that by the time a person turns 18, slightly more than half of females and nearly two-thirds of males will have had intercourse. [9] Although most teenagers have sexual intercourse as adolescents, most of these teens are not "sexually active"; in 1997, only 37% of females and 33% of males who reported ever having had sexual intercourse said that they had sex in the past 3 months. [10] |
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In a 2003 study, 89% of girls reported feeling pressured by boys to have sex. [12] Before "age 15, a majority of first intercourse experiences among females are reported to be non-voluntary." [9] [13] | In a 2003 study, 89% of girls reported feeling pressured by boys to have sex, while 49% of boys reported feeling pressured by girls to have sex. In contrast, 67% of boys felt pressured by other boys, while 53% of girls felt pressured by other girls. [12] |
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A 2000 survey conducted by the
Henry Kaiser Family Foundation for
Seventeen magazine found that of 15 to 17 year olds who have had sexual intercourse:
However, since that survey was taken the dominant form of teenage sexuality has changed from penile-vaginal intercourse to oral sex. [15] |
A 2005 poll commissioned by
NBC News and
People magazine found that, of the teens surveyed, the reasons they had sexual intercourse for the first time were:
[4]
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Almost half of boys (47%) of boys but fewer girls (38%) believe that oral sex is "not a big deal." [4] Despite this, there is a large "discrepancy when it comes to willingness to perform oral sex" with girls giving, and boys receiving. [16] Oral sex is "now commonly performed by very young girls outside of romantic relationships, casually and without any expectation of reciprocation." [5] | Almost half of boys (47%) of boys but fewer girls (38%) believe that oral sex is "not a big deal." Despite this, there is a large "discrepancy when it comes to willingness to perform oral sex" with girls giving, and boys receiving. [4] According to social critic Caitlin Flanagan, Oral sex is "now commonly performed by very young girls outside of romantic relationships, casually and without any expectation of reciprocation." [5] On the other hand, New York Times columnist David Brooks wrote, "Reports of an epidemic of teenage oral sex are .. greatly exaggerated." [17] According to the previously referenced survey, 12% of teens, or about one in ten, have had oral sex. [4] |
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Oui, merci beacoup pour contribuer bon informatique Ce article. Translation (Yes, thank you for contributing good information to this article)
At long last someone has made what is probably the best contribution d'informatique to this article in a long long time. (Thanks Strangerer :-). Better than I could do!. Nateland 03:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the disputed tag because the few lines about oxytocin are all properly cited, and no one has produced any evidence in the two weeks since the tag went up that anything in the article is incorrect. I fail to see why that tag should remain. -- Illuminato 23:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
For the third time since April 17 I have removed the totally disputed tag, for reasons explained above in this section. For the third time Iamcuriousblue has put it back in, saying in the edit summary that if I don't like it I can take it to mediation. However, the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal's first criteria for accepting a case is that there must be a discussion already going on. I've asked for specifics on what is factually inaccurate but none were given. I was referred to an article that casts doubt on the idea that "oxytocin becomes deleted and one loses the ability to bond with sexual partners or one's children." I don't believe the article says that at all and thus am at a loss as to what Iam believes in inaccurate. In anycase since he refuses to discuss it here, and since the MC won't take the case unless there is a discussion, I have again removed the tag. -- Illuminato 03:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Unindent. If you can find a reputable source that says casual sex is a healthy behavior for teens to engage in then please share it. I haven't found one yet. Also, why is including information about possible emotional harm any different that physical harm? Or do you also object to including information about how STDs can be contracted? I again disagree that it is widely regarded as junk science. Your Slate article makes the case that it doesn't decrease the capacity to bond in the future, but thats not what this article says, as I have mentioned time and again. I'll ask again (whats the definition of insanity again?): what is in the article that you think is factually incorrect? -- Illuminato 19:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Most of the content of this article doesn't seems to claim to be United State specific. So, why is it in an article about Adolescent sexuality in the United States ? Shouldn't most of this content be in a general article about Adolescent sexuality ? Shmget 18:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, Illuminato's defense is that 99.99999% of the people who made these 'statements' and 'discoveries' are from the Uinted States, of course, he was once campaigning to have only this 99.9999% US citizens quoted in the main article called adolescent sexuality. Right now the whole debate is contained to a few articles instead of the eight or nine articles they once inhabited. Basically put, Illuminato has just been une doleur de la cul. :-(, sadly enough. Nateland 21:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, since mediation clearly didn't get us anywhere it looks like we are back to this talk page. As I said above, from reviewing this page I can find two complaints you have about oxytocin: 1) "There is no scientific evidence that long-term ability to bond is negatively affected by casual sexual encounters," and 2) "The subject of oxytocin and its relationship to bonding doesn't really have any special relevance to the subject of adolescent sexuality, much less adolescent sexuality in the United States." As to the first I, again, disagree that the article makes this claim. As to the second, I agree that it is does not have any special relevance to AS or AS in the US, but I think that is it is relevant. How can we move this discussion forward? -- Illuminato 19:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The article under " Effects of sexual activity", start with "The American Academy of Pediatrics has identified the sexual behaviors of American adolescents as a major public health problem". The reference material cited to support this claim state "Although other developed countries have similar rates of early sexual intercourse, the United States has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the world." Which indicate that it is not sexual intercouse in itself that are a 'major health problem', since the same alleged cause does not produce the same effect in similarly developed countries. The specificities of Sexuality in American teenager is not about sex, but about culture and extreme taboo. The Jackson Superball incident is an excellent illustration of the insanity of the situation. Yet the very next sentence after that claim about 'health problem', which in the reference is mostly an epidemiologic health thread - refer to an alledge psycological health thread, absolutely not supported by the reference given in the first sentence. The link given to 'support' the second phrase [9], is a blog entry that doesn't even support this thesis, except insofar as quoting the Bush administration requirement that such claim (sex outside mariage is harmful) be made.
The next sentence, which quote the same source, make even more outrageously unsupported claim. nothing in the 'reference link' even remotely support such wide-ranging and radical claims.
The next one "When taking part in hookups "the kids don't even look at each other. It's mechanical, dehumanizing." is merely an opinion, This cannot possibly back-up by fact, at best one could find some anecdotal evidence, but nothing justifying this sweeping generalisation of how allegedly 'teens' interact.
The last sentence of the paragraph build upon previous conclusions, which were un-supported, hence void.
The next paragraph start with a sentence that is not specific to teenager, and whose conclusion are irrelevant (the conclusion that casual sex does not foster long term relationship might be true, yet hardly specific of teenager-casual sex, nor is it relevant to any 'effect of sexual activity' chapter title covering the statement. Nor is it demonstrated that 'fostering long term relationship' is a vital and necessary justification of any activities. Beside the link given to 'support' the claim, doesn't not involve 'teens' (boston university's junior hardly qualify as 'clueless underdeveloped teens', or you have a much bigger problem on your had than casual sex...). Futermore that link is hardly a 'reference', yet it does indeed propagate the disputed claim about oxytocin - without of course any reference to support it, it conclude that "The irony is that girls aren't equipped to handle love." a good example of amphiboly
The next paragraph, first and second sentences quotes are mis-atrributed. the quoted element is in fact the words of Sabrina Weill, a former editor in chief at Seventeen magazine, which make her a reputable expert in child psychology of course, and an expert at defining what is 'normal behavior(tm)'.
Now to the 4th paragraph, the oxytocin paragraph.the 4th first sentence are not teen specific what-so-ever. The 3rd mention a 500% surge in male (without a reference base that doesn't mean much.. for all we now the normal level might be trace level, so any realease would represente a huge percetnage 'surge')
Yet the quoted material is interesting "Dr. Amen: Oxytocin is the chemical of trust and bonding. Men have significantly lower levels of it than women. In women, holding hands, kind looks, doing something special for someone our partner loves, are all ways to increase oxytocin. In turn, it increases their bonding to their partner. For men, an orgasm actually increases oxytocin, up to 500 percent. So men need orgasm to become more bonded and connected, while women need touch and talking in order to get to the place of wanting to help their partner have an orgasm."
So based on that reference, girl should stay in isolation and not touching nor talking to anybody to be 'protected' against the allegedly harmful effect of oxytocin alleged to result of casual-sex induced oxytocin surges. The rest of the paraggraph has abolutely not connection with the first 4th sentences, and are once again sweeping generalization based on an imaginary standard 'proto-teen'
And the final staw, that "Depression, alcohol abuse, anorexia, and emotional disturbance can all afflict adolescents as a result." CAN afflict ??? sure, solar flares too 'can' afflict... who knows... 'As a result?' Result of what ? oxytocin level, or claimed behavior of teens that are "pretending to say it's just sexual and nothing else" ???
I can go on, line by line. This article is nothing but a moralist rambling about the evil of sex. In that regard that justifies the part of the tile about 'in the United States'. There is no scientific or even rational support for any of it. Heck it even claim one thing and it's contrary in the same section. At first a "500% surge" in oxytocin made boys dangerously 'bonded' to their partner, to the point of causing depression, alcohol abuse, etc... But then few paragraph later it claims : "Boys are less likely to see sex as connected to an emotional relationship" So what is it ? oxytocin works or not ?
On the other hand, as notice from the very first reference of this section. "Although other developed countries have similar rates of early sexual intercourse, the United States has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the world." This very specific obsession with sex, not by teens, but by disturbed adults, might actually be the real core cause of the problems perceived here.
Shmget 00:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore the 'recommentaion' about abstinence should be read in context, as a preambule to a recommendation to promote safe-sex, and contraception. You know as weel as I do that the first part of the sentence was necessitated by the current political climate to be able to publish the second part. But a casual reader, not familiar with the Internal US politic would be mislead by your selective quote. Shmget 05:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Um... Illuminato, mediation DID get somewhere, the mediator suggested that the oxytocin be removed because he/she thought it didn't fit. You just rudely told the mediator off as well as everyone else who wanted that quote removed and are now acting like it doesn't matter and the dispute hasn't discussed.
In truth, it's been discussedto death, and you just keep dodging vital questions. I also dislike how you archived significant portions of this archive which contained much discussion relevant to the 'oxytocin hypothesis' without discussing first. MANY talk pages for controversial or big articles are far more than 75k. And considering your shady archiving in the past, it seems like you're using the ability to archive pages as a form of censorship. I won't stand for it!. Accept that your 'hypothesis' isn't accepted, quit arguing, and GET WITH THE PROGRAM.
That's all Nateland 00:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh yes, and Shmget, very well done. Although your grammar and spelling need a tiny bit of tuning up (It's ok, your quality of writing and getting the point across makes up for that 10,000 to hundredth power times). I agree, no one has really gone over the quotes and their references bit by bit for a long time. But because of your doing so... you've made a good point. It is moralist rambling. And I hope Illuminato will acknowledge the points that have been made but that you've clarified even MORE so that 'hopefully' our point will be 'simplified' enough so that he can't dodge around.... Nateland 01:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Something else to note: an interview with behavioral neuroscientist Jill Schneider in which she debunks the idea that oxytocin studies have any relevance to understanding of emotions around casual sex. Iamcuriousblue 02:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
In an effort to move this discussion along I am posting the current text of the paragraph that discusses oxytocin. If you have a problem with something in it, why don't you propose new text for it and we can discuss it.
Lets get some constructive comments here, rather than simply complaining. -- Illuminato 20:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Unident. Shmget, this is not a travel and food editor we are dealing with here, it is the author of over 10 books who is considered to be an expert. Yes, there is the exceptional claims policy, but I don't think this qualifies. For instance, one red flag warning that this might be an exceptional claim is that it doesn't appear anywhere in reputable news sources. The quote in question comes from USA Today and Dr. Coleman has been quoted and published widely, including appearances on Oprah. He is not a fringe theorist.
When we have a quote from an expert I don't think it is unreasonable to ask someone who claims there are "many more experts who disagree" to provide a source for that claim. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, if he could improve the article by citing a single expert who disagrees with Dr. Coleman I would welcome the addition. Also, I don't think the current phrasing is unfair to Dr. Coleman's intent. All I did was replace "Its" with a more descriptive phrase of what he was talking about. -- Illuminato 19:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I edited the hormonal section to try and get some compromise text in there on oxytocin. -- Illuminato 13:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear illuminato, I removed the link to Alexandra Hal's piece, because she is a self proclaim 'travel and food' expert. By no mean an authority on teenage sexual behavior. And her piece is an anecdotal account of the allege activity a few 'teens'. The text is not serious, is highly loaded in political reference, it used things like going back to the 'early 70's' to find an increase in percent of sexually active highschool student, or blaming the internet for teens in boston being "sexually advanced", i.e knowing anything at all about it. It is a amusing fiction, but by no strech of the imagination serious, rigourous or authoritative. Actually another reference in the main article, this time from a research paper say: " Boys and girls who experience sex outside of conventional dating relationships often share similar orientations toward their relationship. Results suggest that a more nuanced view is key to understanding adolescent sexual behavior." Such nuance is completely absent from the amateur work of Ms Hal.
I also removed "Given their incomplete emotional and cognitive development, adolescents are also particularly at risk to suffer from emotional distress as a result of their sexual activities." and it was no accident. 1/ the term 'emotional distress' is a legal term, not a medical one, nor a pschy one (just follow the wiki link) 2/ There is absolutely no data to back that claim up, in contrast with the STD and pregnacy claims just before, that are backed-up by irrefutable data from multiples and independent data source, over decades... I have yet do see any serious study, with actual published and reviewed data, to backup up the claim above, especially one that would try to substanciate that teens are 'particularly' at risk, especially when supposedly 'grow-up' are not doing that well once they pass the magic 2.0.
I removed "This is "at least two years earlier than previous generations. This means they are ready for sex earlier physically, but not emotionally or cognitively" because it is contradicted by the data provided by the research article quoted just before. Considering that Generation is about 20 years. that number has been stable for at least 2 generations, as you yourself said earlier in this page, this is not supposed to be the 'history of', so how is something that has not significantly changed in 40-50 yeas has any significance here?
Btw, before we get there, let me warn you that I will object to the legitimacy of articles that give survey's percentage with 3 significatives digits (like "38.8% have given oral sex vs. 38.6% in 1995" These kind of statement are particularly idiotic. If you could chose a random sample (which you can't because of the need for parental consent) and IF you knew what the response bias was precisely enough (which you can't: people lies, and teenager lies even more about sex, one way or another) then you still need a sample of about 1,000,000 person. No serious and reputable author would use such idiotic numbers, and there is certainly no excuse to quote them. Shmget 11:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Shmget, I want to thank you for your work to improve this article. By going back and forth on the article itself I really think we are making progress and the article is improving. This is a much better approach than simply complaining. Also, this talk page is now 100k long and there are over 20 discussion topics. I tried to archive some of it to make it easier to read and faster to load, but my effort was reverted. Would anyone object to archiving some of the older discussion with a link to the archive at the top of the page? -- Illuminato 21:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone! If you haven't already visited the mediation page, here is the proposal that we agreed upon.
1: Revise the article using reputable, neutral sources to make the article NPOV.
2: Broaden the article's coverage to include adolescent homosexuality and autoerotic activity.
3: Remove the POV tag after the revision if everyone agrees that every point of view is represented equally and neutrally.
I'll be hanging around a bit until everyone's happy with the article. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave a message on my talk page.
mcr616
Speak! 23:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Illuminato, would you please stop pilling stat over stat, without any analysis. The latest on Homosexuality is a point in case. Comparing these two numbers is at best misguided, at worse intentionally misleading. Think about if for a second. How exactly does one 'teen' classify himself openly as 'homosexual'. If anything it is amazing that 1 in 5 declare themselves as 'homo-sexual' while not experience any sexuality what-so-ever ? It's like declaring you don't like sweet but a the same time saying that you never tasted sugar in your life. This is idiotic, and this cannot possibly be compared with a pool on the general population. That reasoning above can be reach just using common sens... but still let's see the actual document: As usual, you didn't give a link so that reviewer could actually see the source, so here it is: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1403620&blobtype=pdf Reading the source few thing become apparent: The sexual orientation is 'self-reported', and on the 1880 men that comprise the sample, 0.1% declared themselves 100% homosexual, or a whooping 2(TWO) person. 0.3% declare themselves 'mostly homosexual' that is 5 or 6 persons. 0.8% declare themselves bi-sexual (15 people). The article even say : "We note that the number of people reporting high-risk activity is so small (less than 50 people)..." and here we are talking about 22 to 23 persons! out of 1880!!!! Even is the bias in the sample (the fact that people lies, especially when they are asked if they are gay), the size of the sample would give a margin or error of more than +/-20%... so 80% is in fact 'somewhere between 60 to 100%' The article target the population 15 to 19. The 'other' source used to allegedly compare numbers, concentrate on 18 and less.... Yet the activity between 18 and 19, especially the % of teen taht actually have sex in that year is far from negligible... so that doesn't even remotely compare apple to apple.
The study also says: "The majority of those who had homosexual intercourse define themselves as mostly or 100 percent heterosexual. Some young men who described themselves as mostly or 100 percent homosexual had not had any homosexual intercourse." Which confirm my introductory remark on the oddity of classify oneself sexually while not having been active one way or the other.... Most will answer with the 'default' accepted answer ('hetero', it would be quite odd, especially in the US, due to cultural pressure, to default to homosexual.
Last bu not least, nowhere in the reference document could I find anything that support the claim of '80%' made my illuminato.
So Not only the claim looked suspicious on face value, not only a reasonable person would have notice that such claims would have been extremely complicated to support methodologicaly, a reasonable person would also be warry of comparing a survey with another without carefull analysis, and finally the claim itself was not even derived from the 'reference' used to 'support' it. As a consequence I reverse. Shmget 01:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, wow. Illuminato, please don't just throw stats around and expect them to be accepted. We need to put reputable, factual sources in the article. mcr616 Speak! 14:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
One of the mediation goal is to achive an acceptable NPOV rendition of the article. This can be achive, I believe in two ways. Either we find an agreement so that the entire article is NPOV, or we agree to split the article in three section, A factual section whose content is agreed to be NPOV by all parties, and one or more section to express the contradictory POV.
Based on this history of edit, and the clearly loaded subjet-matter, I seriously doubt that we can agree on a truly monoblock NPOV article.
I personally could live with some POV, so long as it is identifed as such. and I don't mean with a banner, but in the structure of the article. I belive that would allow the article to end-up leaner. Once the 'Moral concervative' POV can be expressed as such, there will not be the need to endless quote and random stats... on both side. The passage about Judith Levine's book could be enriched, to serve as a based on the 'liberal' point of view.
The idea would be for the authors to be 'leniant' on edit in the POV section, using the otehr POV section to balance an argument rather than edit-warring on it.
In the section 'facts', data and trend about sexual activity, pregancy, STD can probably be agree upon, so long as it is not attached to controversial interpretations and opinions, either way. (And I am suceptible to get carried away as much as any body else :-) )
Things that I am sensitive to are: misleading presentation of correlation as causality. Non sequitur (presenting a fact, and following with an opinion, as if that opinion was supported by the fact, when it is not).
Another important things to be consider to reach a consensus, is to try to be mindfull of the source we use. The debate is polarized, including among the 'expert'. Expert are not impartial, and neither are publications or sponsors. For example a paper published by a partisan lobby like the Family Research Council is much more likely to have a POV bias than a professional doctor assocaition like the American Academy of Pediatrics for instance.- Shmget 05:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
About reference, illuminato, could you please precise a bit the source on Dr Sax comment. Since this source is not accessible online, could you precise the page number of the reference book where the quote has been extracted from? I may find a way to get my hand on a copy, but I certainly don't feel like combing through all of it to locate one sentence. Shmget 15:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Has the article been revised to everyone's satisfaction? There hasn't been any activity on here in some time. -- Illuminato 14:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The article say: "Teens rank the media second only to school sex education programs as a leading source of information about sex.[10] "
but also "Most teens (70%) say they have gotten some or a lot of information about sex and sexual relationships from their parents. Other sources of information include friends at 53%, school, also at 53%, TV and movies at 51% and magazines at 34%."
So which is it ?
or
also the intro says: "In addition, 46% report not having used a condom the last time they had sexual intercourse."
but under Contraceptive use "only 67% said that they use protection every time they have sex.", that is 33% that has at lest once not use protection... but 46% have not use codoms the LAST time they had sex... (that is, not to mention the time before, and before etc..) even factoring the 94% prevalence of use... and even making the ridiculous assumption that tehre are abolutely not 'partial users; that still does not add up. -- Shmget 15:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Iamcuriousblue: We went to Mediation on April 21. By early May there was an agreement about what should be done and mediation was closed on July 3rd. In that time you only made 2 edits while others made 120. It is in no way fair for you to continually complain, force the issue to go to mediation, and then sit back and do nothing to improve the article. Then you accuse me of bad faith - I don't get it. Mediation is over, so the tags should go. If you can further improve the article then please do so, but please make positive contributions rather than negative complaints.-- Illuminato 13:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll note, more specifically, that one of the agreements that came out of mediation was that the tags stay until all particles concerned agree that the article is balanced and NPOV to their satifaction. Not to one parties satisfaction, but to all parties involved in the dispute. And there was no deadline set for that – the issues didn't just go away just because the mediation case was closed. Iamcuriousblue 05:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
i agree. unless u r going to do something to fix the problem u shouldnt complain! if u dont agree then put ur own info in there.
"Gay, lesbian and bisexual youth are three times as likely to become pregnant or get a partner pregnant as their straight peers."
I'm not exactly sure I understand. How is that possible? As a bi sexual male myself, up until this point I was unaware that gay men could get each other pregnant and I thought the same went for lesbians. Where is this information from? luke callahan 7 august 2007
So I read most of the talk page and discovered this little war between Iamcuriousblue and Illuminato. Here are my comments:
Iamcuriousblue: I agree with you, the article is pretty heavily biased. But. Just because the truth is on your side doesn't mean you should be rude about it. Illuminato will be more willing to listen to you if you aren't calling him an idiot. Strangerer does this very well; she is polite, but she gets the message across. Follow her example.
"I would like to see more information about adolescent homosexuality, and I would like the opinions/quotefarm to be toned down some."--Strangerer
"Yes, fine, but the article still seems to be based more on "possible negative effects of 'hooking up'" rather than anything else. It could use a broader viewpoint."--Strangerer
You see? And if you read about halfway up, Illuminato thanks her for her work. To sum up: Keep a cool head, don't take arguments too personally, and be civil. Things tend to work out better if you do.
Illuminato: Now don't get me wrong. I think the article is totally one-sided. I think it needs a major overhaul and am doing some myself. But I have to admire how you never seemed to lose your temper on the talk page. You replied calmly to all accusations of bias and politely asked how you could improve it. I probably couldn't have done it myself. Thumbs up.
Now, what to do. No one likes to throw good work away, especially their own. Illuminato is not going to want to delete his own work unless he knows it's the right choice. So telling Illuminato to get rid of large swathes of text (or deleting it yourself) is not going to help; I believe this was a major part of the edit war. Instead, let's improve on what we have. Don't delete, replace and improve.</spiel>
I've gone on a bit of a rampage through the last couple of sections, but I've more or less only replaced stuff with less biased/wordy stuff and added a couple of things. Is this ok, Illuminato? Tell me what you think. (I'll be going back to school in two days, so I may forget about this page after tonight, but I'll try not to.) Johnthescavenger 07:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I just happened to be strolling through wikipedia looking for information on Deborah Yurgelun-Todd, and I came across this article. To my eyes, this is a total NPOV trainwreck. The only cleanup I did was delete a line making a sweeping claim that 'research has linked abstinence education in schools to a "dramatic" decrease in the number of teens having sex', which was supported only by a single citation from "LifeSite", whose "About Us" page states:
LifeSiteNews.com's writers and its founders, have come to understand that respect for life and family are endangered by an international conflict. That conflict is between radically opposed views of the worth and dignity of every human life and of family life and community. It has been caused by secularists attempting to eliminate Christian morality and natural law principles which are seen as the primary obstacles to implementing their new world order.
What a source. Anyways, good luck with the NPOV, this thing is a real mess. SamLL 04:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm adding the disputed section template based on this report by the WaPo. [3] Seventhofnine 11:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Most or all of this looks to be a repeat, but just in case some of it isn't here, here's the content that was originally on Society of the United States: ( Calliopejen1 ( talk) 21:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC))
More than half of sexually active teens have had sexual partners they are not dating.
[1]
[2] Risky sexual behaviors that involve "anything but intercourse," as well as
sexually transmitted diseases, are "rampant" among teenagers.
[3] Lloyd Kolbe, director of the
CDC's Adolescent and School Health program, called the STD problem "a serious epidemic."
[3]
The teenage years are when most in the United States first have intercourse. The current data suggests that by the time a person turns 18, slightly more than half of females and nearly two-thirds of males will have had intercourse. [4] Sixteen percent of adults first had sex before age 15, while 15 percent abstained from sex until at least age 21. [5] Almost 14 percent of teens lose their virginity in June, the most common month. [6] The teen's home, their partner’s home or a friend’s house is the most common place for virginity to be lost, with 68% of teens losing their virginity in one of those three places. [6] "Research shows that the likelihood of a first sexual experience happening will increase with the number of hours a day teens spend unsupervised." [6] There is a "discrepancy when it comes to willingness to perform oral sex [with] 22% of sexually active girls say[ing] their partner never performs oral sex on them, while only 5% of boys say their partner never does." [2]
The American Academy of Pediatrics has identified the sexual behaviors of American adolescents as a major public health problem. [7] The younger an adolescent is at the time of their sexual debut the greater the risk they are of engaging in delinquent acts later. Adolescents who experience late sexual debut are the least likely to participate in delinquency. [8] Adolescents who start having sex at a young age may not be prepared to deal with the emotional, social and behavioral consequences of their actions. [9] Teen pregnancies in the United States decreased 28% between 1990 and 2000 from 117 pregnancies per every 1,000 teens to 84 per 1,000. [10] The US is rated, based on 2002 numbers, 84 out of 170 countries based on teenage fertility rate, according to the World Health Organization. [11]
According to University of California San Francisco pediatrics Professor Bonnie Halpern-Felsher, "We tend to focus on the health consequences of having sex, like pregnancy and STDs, but we also need to talk to them about all the emotional consequences." [12] With their still developing brains, teens do not yet possess the ability to either fathom the physical and emotional consequences of sex or to deal with them once they happen. [3] [13] The "early initiation into sexual behaviors is taking a toll on teens' mental health" with dependency on boyfriends and girlfriends, serious depression around breakups and cheating, and suffering from a lack of goals as possible results. [3] As "teenagers are not mature enough to know all the ramifications of what they're doing," [14] "early sexual activity - whether in or out of a romantic relationship - does far more harm than good." [15]
Might as well rename this article "negative effects of adolescent sexuality in the US"...
I agree with this statement. This article has a lot of editorializing and propaganda surrounding relatively few undisputed facts... I don't know much about Wikipedia but I can tell that this article is below Wikipedia standards. It almost sounds like a Conservapedia propaganda page, to be honest.
M4390116 (
talk) 22:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Take a Closer Look & a Broad Look: This evidence-based article shares contributions from impeccable resources and primarily represents forward thinking, and it could help millions of families who currently do not have access to this information. 1.) This is for adolescents, not adults. Let's not assign adult values to this subject; what is "conservative" for adults may be "safe" for youth. Let each family decide what's best for them. Forward thinkers are not afraid to consider evidence on how media impacts child development, attitudes, and health. Forward thinkers are not afraid to acknowledge new evidence that indicates old assumptions may be wrong. 2.) Isn't our goal equal opportunity for balance, not total balance? There are not two equal sides to every story. There are more studies done on the the negative health outcomes of adolescent sexuality today for many obvious reasons. The positive results are few and haven't garnered a lot of study. If someone knows of a study that enlightens us on the "the healthful sexual attitudes and habits of the developing child," let's include it. Some, but not all, media promote adolescent sexuality for profit; we are bombarded with it. Sex sells. This Wikipedia article can help balance the prevailing, bigger message that is being sold to U S. residents. [And, whether we agree with abstinence education or not, including it does add balance to the subject.] We are not writing poetry or setting policy; we are sharing information. Please help finalize this important article and get it out to parents, teachers and care-givers in order to encourage informed choices and healthier outcomes for youth. SharonThawts ( talk) 20:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
The phrase "intact homes" has been used in scholarly literature going back to at least 1957, and was the phrase used in the SAM, a respected publication. Others who use the phrase include the American Bar Association, and organization that can hardly be considered conservative, an adjective I don't use to describe myself. It is commonly understood to be a home where both parents live as a married couple. I've removed the fix tag, now that I have defined the term. -- Illuminato ( talk) 03:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed references from SADD.org. According to their website, they are "peer leadership organization dedicated to preventing destructive decisions, particularly underage drinking, other drug use, impaired driving, teen violence and teen depression and suicide." As such, op-ed pieces on sexuality that appear on their site strike me as questionable based on WP:V. There are plenty of peer-reviewed, fact-checked articles on this topic, and the article cites them generously. I suggest we stick with such sources to avoid violating WP:NPOV. The same is true of an article cited to Access Hollywood, which doesn't strike me as a reliable source as it relates to this article, so I have also removed quotes and cites from that article. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 19:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
(undenting) And I've restored the tag. My sourcing objection remains. If Dr. Saltz is as prominent and well-regarded as you claim, then surely we can find sources for her ideas and quotes that meet Wikipedia's higher standard for reliability. Access Hollywood may bring people on who make good television, but no one is fact-checking what they say on the program. Quoting Dr. Saltz from Access Hollywood undermines the credibility of what she has to say and brings up the "cherry-picking" criticism that other editors have leveled at you in the past. Find a better source. Thank you for restoring the O'Connell attribution. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 16:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The criteria for an A Class article is:
Aside from being illustrated (now that could raise some problems) how does this article fail that? -- Illuminato ( talk) 04:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
New article out, also deceprating allegations of teen oral sex epidemic. Suggestion: Add as source on teen oral sex section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelica K ( talk • contribs) 23:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a lack of detail about the generally recognized failure of abstinence only education. The whole article appears slanted with conservative sources to make it appear as if adolescent sexuality is somehow unhealthy or abnormal. The entire article needs a serious rewrite in order to give a balance to conflicting views rather than promoting the conservative agenda as the generally accepted view, rather than the fringe view of society. Atom ( talk) 23:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I've deleted exaggerated quotes from journalists as non-reliable sources on the effects of oxytocin. I have no objection to the subject being discussed, but I believe the credibility of the discussion is compromised when we have short quotes about women "swimming in" hormones, or the effects "raging for days and days". This is non-encyclopedic language, which in a scientific article would not stand for a minute. As stated in WP:SOURCES, "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science." To my mind, a scientific discussion of oxytocin's effects should come from such sources. They would never engage in such non-neutral language. I have added some scientific sources to balance this section, it's clear that there's no scientific consensus on oxytocin's effects after sex, so those quoted as drawing behavioral conclusions from it are merely speculating. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 16:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Rather than make multiple small changes at once, I have found it easier to make them all at once. I'll explain them here, as they won't fit in the edit summary. On the suicide sentence, it is in there, the source was incorrect. They are also 8 times, not 6 times more likely. I've corrected it. The link between sexual activity and depression is supported by clinical experience, and a clinical psychologist backs it up. It is supported by the source. I also moved part of the quote dealing with cutting back to the depression section as i think they are related. I kept other parts of it in the "correlation" section where I think it is more appropriate. I also restored a quote from the SADD CEO. Yes, he never uses the word "shocked," but he does say it is "startling," so I don't think this is a stretch. Also, he is a reliable source, so I don't believe he needs to back it up in this document. His word can be trusted. I also restored the "rampant" quote, but the ref was wrong for it, so I fixed it. It comes from an article in which the author spoke to numerous experts, including the director of the CDC's Adolescent and School Health program. The ref says "nearly everyone agrees" on this. -- Illuminato ( talk) 00:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I have reordered the sections, to establish some basic facts and statistics about teenage sexual activity first. I've moved the section on "social aspects" down, because I'm totally unclear on the grouping of topics in that section, and placing it first in the article seems totally out of context -- social aspects of sexual activity are not the most important subject here, in my opinion. Also, the section seems to repeat material that's already contained in other sections. In general, it seems to discuss a trend toward more "casual sex" among teens, but it groups other topics in there as well, and all of these topics are addressed elsewhere. Reducing the redundancy of these topics would improve the article, as it's getting overly long -- now topping 50K of readable prose. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 17:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I've tried several times to edit the section that relates to abstinence-only
The recent compromise language "Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the only approach to take, in accordance with the teachings of many churches that forbid sex outside of marriage." is better than the original language, but it still seems problematic. It is better, because it does not proclaim abstinence-only as a Christian Value which, of course, it is not. I understand and respect that some conservative churches and religions advocate abstinence-only, but it is not universal, and should not be expressed as if it were.
The problematic part of this compromise language, as I see it anyway, is: 1) Churches have no authority to "forbid" anything. They teach doctrine. So, "In accordance with the teachings..." sounds great; "forbid sex outside of marriage" is not great language. 2) "Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the only approach to take..." Might sound better as something like "Some religious organizations teach that sexual abstinence is the moral approach to take" or soemthing like that. After all, Islam and Judaism also teach that to some degree. The language "only approach to take" generalizes too much as not all churches, or even most churches would phrase it that way. 3) The references are not so good either. 127 "The Bible condemns fornication, see Corinthians 6:18-19. " applies only to some Christians, and not all religious groups. First Corinthians also does not condemn fornication, it says "Flee from immorality". Which of course, says either a great deal, or very little about abstinence depending on what you want to believe it means. It certainly does not directly address "abstinence-only". 4) In reference 128 it addresses how the Catholic, Baptist and Pentacostal religions view a number of things. 1) The Cathechism of the Catholic church speaks about many things. I don't think it would be difficult to say that they view Chastity as valuable and teach that abstinence is a moral virtue. They don't forbid or condemn non-chastity however. 2) Baptists have a set of basic beliefes and teachings, related to "abstinence-only" the closest thing they teach is "Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including adultery, homosexuality, and pornography". So, they do not speak of abstinence of chastity directly. A large number of Baptists do not believe that non-abstinence is itself sexually immoral, but more related to more complex situations. 3) The Assemblies of God teaches that Homosexuality is a sin and "He pointed out that the only alternative to heterosexual marriage is celibacy for the kingdom of heaven’s sake (Matthew 19:10–12)" Again, this says nothing about abstinence, and only says that alternative to celbacy or abstinence is heterosexual relations. It does not says those relations need to be only within the confines of marriage.
As the topic of the article is Adolescent Sexuality, and not religious views on sexuality, we should leave much of the religious stuff out.
I suggest: "Abstinence-only sex education teahes teenagers that they should be sexually abstinent until marriage and does not provide information about contraception. In the Kaiser study, 34% of high-school principals said their school's main message was abstinence-only. Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the best approach to take, in accordance with the teachings of many churches." The citations left out, as they don;t apply for the reasons given. Atom ( talk) 21:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-- Jamesad ( talk) 04:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)James
In regards to the question of oral sex being less risky than vaginal sex, please take the time to read at least the results and discussion sections of the source provided. Here's a link to full text.
“ | Independent of gender, adolescents who reported having vaginal sex (with or without also having oral sex) were more likely than adolescents who reported having only oral sex to experience any positive consequence and any negative consequence of having sex (Table 3). | ” |
“ | Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex. | ” |
— Brady and Halpern-Felsher p. 223 |
If the article is going to say that adolescents view oral sex as being less risky, we shouldn't marginalize that view by suggesting its only held by misguided teenagers. - Headwes ( talk) 05:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Brady and Halpern says:
"In comparison with adolescents who engaged in oral sex and/or vaginal sex, adolescents who engaged only in oral sex were less likely to report experiencing a pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection, feeling guilty or used, having their relationship become worse, and getting into trouble with their parents as a result of sex. Adolescents who engaged only in oral sex were also less likely to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of sex. Boys were more likely than girls to report feeling good about themselves, experiencing popularity, and experiencing a pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection as a result of sex, whereas girls were more likely than boys to report feeling bad about themselves and feeling used. "
See where it says "...less likely to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of sex" and "girls were more likely than boys to report feeling bad about themselves and feeling used. "
This doesn't support positive outcome, it says that the results are mixed with positive and negative outcomes.
The statement is made in the article "Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks a claim one study supports" When that study (Brady and Halpern) does not say that. The study may say that adolescents believe it to carry fewer physical and emotional risks, but the study says the results are a mixed bag, with significant negative emotional risks. We can't say that the studysupports their view, because it doesn't. Atom ( talk) 14:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey, look -- I respect your view and intentions. My personal opion sides with you and what the paragraph says. Howerver, remaining true to a citation, rather than slanting it in a different view is important. The integrity of the article (already terribly slanted) and Wikipedia is important.
The Paragraph says:
"While New York Times columnist David Brooks has written, "Reports of an epidemic of teenage oral sex are .. greatly exaggerated"[42], the National Center for Health Statistics has found a quarter of 15-year-old girls have performed it, and more than half of all 17-year-old girls have.[3] About 12% of teens aged 13-16 have had oral sex, and 13% of the same teens have had sexual intercourse.[17] The 2007 Guttmacher Institute study found that slightly more than half (55%) of 15– to 19-year-olds have engaged in heterosexual oral sex, 50% have engaged in vaginal sex and 11% have had anal sex and that the prevalence of both vaginal and oral sex among adolescents has remained steady over the past decade.[5] Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks,[43][44][45] a claim one study supports.[40]"
The Gist of what it implies is researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents.
The citation we are debating, Brady and Halpern Adolescents’ Reported Consequences of Having Oral Sex Versus Vaginal Sex it describes itself as "The study examined whether adolescents’ initial consequences of sexual activity differ according to type of sexual activity and gender."
The conclusion of the study was (an exact quote) "Results of the present study support the conceptualization of adolescent sexual behavior, including engagement in oral sex, as medical and public health issues. Parents and health professionals should talk with adolescents about how they can cope with and reduce the likelihood of experiencing negative physical, social, and emotional consequences of having sex, so that decisions to engage in sex are made thoughtfully and are more likely to lead to positive physical and mental health outcomes. Health professionals and other adults should also talk with adolescents about how decisions to engage in any type of sexual activity may have important consequences. "
I have bolded the portion that stands out for me as relevant to the paragraph in our article being discussed.
The study makes three important implications:
To get back to the point, see what I said above "The Gist of what it implies is researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents." The study does not conclude that. Most people would not read the report and say that the results of the study asserted that.
Getting to the two specific points you made: first: "I think this line makes it pretty clear the study does support the claim: "Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex." Yes, we can say the study supports their view--it comes right out and says it does. Of course its a mixed bag... Did you really expect a study saying there could never be any adverse consequences to oral sex?"
The beginning of the study, introducting the topic does, indeed say:
"Previous research showed that adolescents expect engagement in oral sex to result in fewer negative physical health, social, and emotional consequences than vaginal sex.2,8 The present study is the first to examine whether the initial consequences of sexual activity that adolescents report actually differ according to type of sex (ie, oral versus vaginal). Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex. In comparison with adolescents who had vaginal sex, adolescents who had only oral sex were less likely to report experiencing a pregnancy or STI, feeling guilty or used, having their relationship become worse, and getting into trouble with their parents as a result of having sex."
In the study the paragraph that follows that puts the first paragraph in juxtaposition however: "From the data presented above, one might be tempted to conclude that engagement in oral sex among adolescents is of less concern than engagement in other forms of sexual activity. However, this conclusion might not be warranted. Because we focused on initial consequences of having sex in this young sample of adolescents, adolescents who engaged in only oral sex might have been less sexually experienced and had less opportunity to experience negative consequences. Engagement in oral sex was also not without negative consequences. Approximately one third of adolescents who had only oral sex reported 1 negative consequence of engaging in sexual behavior. Adolescents who had only oral sex were also less likely than their peers with vaginal sex experience to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of having sex. The decision to engage in any type of sexual activity may thus result in negative social and emotional consequences or failure to experience anticipated positive consequences. "
Second: "To be more specific, Table 3 shows that vaginal sex only was >3 times as likely to result in a negative outcome as oral sex only, while vaginal and oral was >4 times as likely to result in a negative outcome."
Table three: "Consequences of Engagement in Sexual Behavior According to Gender and Type of Sex" says that "Vaginal sex only vs Oral sex only" had "Any negative consequence" as 3.75 (as you suggest) and for the same category "Had any positive consequence" as 3.75. Showing Vaginal sex as (in your words) >3 times as likely to result in a positive outcome". The table has a variety of other statistics, and is quite complex. One should probably rely on the implications and conclusion made by the study, rather than generalizing one statistic in a logistic regression model with thirteen dependent variables. One can suggest, for instance that Males are 1.64 times more likely to experience any positive consequences than females are. That by itself isn't entirely meaningful.
Summary:
My point. The study cited has lots of interesting things in it. We should rewrite a portion of some of this article to show the results, particularly " greater proportion of adolescents in our study reported positive consequences of having sex than reported negative consequences." But, one can not in all honesty say that the results or sumamry of the report are "Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex", or more specifically, that the study supports the specific statement in the article "Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks." The study does not address that, it addresses something similar.
Regards to you, Atom ( talk) 18:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This article should focus on how adolescent sexuality in the United States compares to/differs from that in other countries. There already is an article about adolescent sexuality, general material should go there. There is too much fluff (verbose quotations, saying things multiple times, etc.) in this article. It needs editing to take the material common to adolescent sexuality in general out of it, and reduce the duplication. Splitting it like this seems likely to invite more duplication, more rambling. Zodon ( talk) 02:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I have added the verylong template, as the readable prose in this article is now over 62K. I advocate judicious pruning, rather than splits that may create POV forks of the content (as has come up before on this talk page). Other thoughts? I may begin suggesting bold edits to prune repetitive content as I have time. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 02:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I have made a number of edits to get the readable prose down to 60K again. Much of my edits were in removing what I consider to be repetitive, exaggerated and biased quotes. I will leave the verylong template up for now, but if we can agree to these removals, the article is within length at this point and the verylong template can come down.-- Sfmammamia ( talk) 08:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I see that my request above has been ignored and quotes added back in that re-inflate the length of this article to 62K. I will re-edit the article back down to 60K. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 04:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The article focuses heavily on negative aspects, needs more coverage of benefits/positive aspects of adolescent sexuality.
Fine to note the problems and less healthy behaviors, but also should discuss benefits and realistic healthier approaches. Zodon ( talk) 08:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually the benefits are universal to virtually all those who engage in the activity, however the negative effects are particularly prevalent (and thus relevant) amongst the sexually experienced adolescent, also the human body (once sexually mature) does not drastically change thus the timing of first activity does not give or deny any benefits other than the perviously stated...learning about sexuality will occur whether activity starts when in adolescence or 'old' age...it makes no difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LENZ ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
In this paragraph, from the Family section of the article. The second sentence (the quotation) should not be in the article. It is plainly not neutral in POV and oversimplifies a complex subject.
Researchers at the University of Arizona, University of Texas-Austin and Wake Forest University have found that girls who have positive relationships with their fathers wait longer before they have sex. Fathers can explain sex "in a way that mom can't, to let daughter know that for boys teen sex is about conquest, fun and adventure; while for girls, teen sex is about expressing love and affection," according to Dr. Patrick Wanis, a human behavior expert.Ernest Hooper (July 27, 2008). "What only a dad can tell a daughter about sex" (html). MercuryNews.com. Retrieved 2008-08-26.
The relevance of the whole paragraph to the topic of Adolescent sexuality in the US is not adequately established. Rather than wasting space with an unneeded quotation of dubious value (and even more space trying to ballance the POV), at least the quotation should be deleted. The material should be connected to the topic of the article, or the whole paragraph should go.
Why does the paragraph need to be here? What is specific to the US about this? Zodon ( talk) 02:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Abstinence describes a variety of sexual behaviors. It is not just "absence of sexual activity" (which could equally well describe asexuality). It is sexual behavior characterized by the absence of some or all sexual activity. (e.g., certain things are possible, but avoided). A broad variety of behaviors are considered to be abstinence, from refraining from vaginal intercourse to much broader restraint. As noted in the "Social aspects" section, significant percentages of teens regard oral sex or genital touching as being abstinence. Since sexual behavior can include things like talking, looking, hugging, fantasy, dreaming, etc., it may be possible to refrain from all such behavior, but such an extreme level of restraint is probably atypical. Thus abstinence makes logical sense in the sexual behavior section.
Since it is often used to describe those who do not engage in some of the other activities listed in the sexual behaviors section, it makes sense from an organizational standpoint as well. Zodon ( talk) 19:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This edit has multiple issues, doesn't belong in article as it stands.
Illuminato – for shame. This issue was settle last year – see Talk:Adolescent_sexuality_in_the_United_States#Oxytocin_discussion_and_sources. The role of oxytocin really has no relevance this article. The idea that bonding patterns facilitated by oxytocin has some bearing on the ethics of casual sex, while being a favorite canard of abstinence education advocates, is totally without scientific merit. I am hereby demanding that you stop trying to add this nonsense and am warning you that I will continue to revert it and take this to moderation if need be. Peter G Werner ( talk) 03:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I have removed, once again, the exaggerated statements that were discussed over a year ago. There is no consensus for them. I have made an edit to indicate that there is no scientific consensus on the behaviorial effects of oxytocin on relationships. Once psychologist or the other theorizing on this does not rise to the level of reliability need to state this as if it was undisputed in the scientific community. Illuminato, I suggest you read the main article on oxytocin and refrain from making repeated insertions of disputed statements, as that could be viewed as tendentious editing -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 19:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
This article has been extremely long for some time, having now reached almost 70k of readable prose. I have already agreed above that some editing could and should probably be done to the article. However, I don't feel this is an entirely workable solution. For one thing, I doubt that removing the "so-and-so says" will bring it down to an acceptable level. Secondly, while some information is not-US specific and could be moved to the main article, I think there are vast differences between adolescent sexuality in the United States and in, say, Ghana.
Both of these are good strategies to take in reducing the readable prose. However, as time goes on the article is sure to grow in content. A more long term solution and different is thus needed. I am again proposing a split in the article, and I hope this one will be found more acceptable. I propose that sections 4 and 5, and possibly 6, be removed and placed in a new article, Effects of sex on American Adolescents. In their place will be left a link to the main article and a summary, including any US specific info in them, (e.g. "Each year, between 8 and 10 million American teens contract a sexually transmitted disease.")
I had considered a general Effects of Adolescent Sexuality, however I don't think that would be a good idea. For one reason, the cultural milieu in which the sex acts take place are diverse enough across the world that I don't think generalizations could really be made beyond something like pregnancy. Two 17 year old friends having casual sex in the US is something very different than a 15 year old married couple in Africa, or a 14 and 28 year old married couple in India, having sex. Besides, there is enough research on American kids alone to fill a library. We can certainly devote a Wikipedia article to it.
This should bring the readable prose down by about 15k-20k. After that, perhaps we could go for an article entitled Sexual behavior of American adolescents with an expanded section 1. What say you all? -- Illuminato ( talk) 15:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Considering how severely imbalanced this article is toward views that conflict with this study, the inclusion of this study is strongly warranted as step toward restoring some balance. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 01:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Might as well rename this article "negative effects of adolescent sexuality in the US"...
I agree with this statement. This article has a lot of editorializing and propaganda surrounding relatively few undisputed facts... I don't know much about Wikipedia but I can tell that this article is below Wikipedia standards. It almost sounds like a Conservapedia propaganda page, to be honest.
M4390116 (
talk) 22:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Take a Closer Look & a Broad Look: This evidence-based article shares contributions from impeccable resources and primarily represents forward thinking, and it could help millions of families who currently do not have access to this information. 1.) This is for adolescents, not adults. Let's not assign adult values to this subject; what is "conservative" for adults may be "safe" for youth. Let each family decide what's best for them. Forward thinkers are not afraid to consider evidence on how media impacts child development, attitudes, and health. Forward thinkers are not afraid to acknowledge new evidence that indicates old assumptions may be wrong. 2.) Isn't our goal equal opportunity for balance, not total balance? There are not two equal sides to every story. There are more studies done on the the negative health outcomes of adolescent sexuality today for many obvious reasons. The positive results are few and haven't garnered a lot of study. If someone knows of a study that enlightens us on the "the healthful sexual attitudes and habits of the developing child," let's include it. Some, but not all, media promote adolescent sexuality for profit; we are bombarded with it. Sex sells. This Wikipedia article can help balance the prevailing, bigger message that is being sold to U S. residents. [And, whether we agree with abstinence education or not, including it does add balance to the subject.] We are not writing poetry or setting policy; we are sharing information. Please help finalize this important article and get it out to parents, teachers and care-givers in order to encourage informed choices and healthier outcomes for youth. SharonThawts ( talk) 20:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
The phrase "intact homes" has been used in scholarly literature going back to at least 1957, and was the phrase used in the SAM, a respected publication. Others who use the phrase include the American Bar Association, and organization that can hardly be considered conservative, an adjective I don't use to describe myself. It is commonly understood to be a home where both parents live as a married couple. I've removed the fix tag, now that I have defined the term. -- Illuminato ( talk) 03:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed references from SADD.org. According to their website, they are "peer leadership organization dedicated to preventing destructive decisions, particularly underage drinking, other drug use, impaired driving, teen violence and teen depression and suicide." As such, op-ed pieces on sexuality that appear on their site strike me as questionable based on WP:V. There are plenty of peer-reviewed, fact-checked articles on this topic, and the article cites them generously. I suggest we stick with such sources to avoid violating WP:NPOV. The same is true of an article cited to Access Hollywood, which doesn't strike me as a reliable source as it relates to this article, so I have also removed quotes and cites from that article. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 19:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
(undenting) And I've restored the tag. My sourcing objection remains. If Dr. Saltz is as prominent and well-regarded as you claim, then surely we can find sources for her ideas and quotes that meet Wikipedia's higher standard for reliability. Access Hollywood may bring people on who make good television, but no one is fact-checking what they say on the program. Quoting Dr. Saltz from Access Hollywood undermines the credibility of what she has to say and brings up the "cherry-picking" criticism that other editors have leveled at you in the past. Find a better source. Thank you for restoring the O'Connell attribution. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 16:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The criteria for an A Class article is:
Aside from being illustrated (now that could raise some problems) how does this article fail that? -- Illuminato ( talk) 04:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
New article out, also deceprating allegations of teen oral sex epidemic. Suggestion: Add as source on teen oral sex section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelica K ( talk • contribs) 23:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a lack of detail about the generally recognized failure of abstinence only education. The whole article appears slanted with conservative sources to make it appear as if adolescent sexuality is somehow unhealthy or abnormal. The entire article needs a serious rewrite in order to give a balance to conflicting views rather than promoting the conservative agenda as the generally accepted view, rather than the fringe view of society. Atom ( talk) 23:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I've deleted exaggerated quotes from journalists as non-reliable sources on the effects of oxytocin. I have no objection to the subject being discussed, but I believe the credibility of the discussion is compromised when we have short quotes about women "swimming in" hormones, or the effects "raging for days and days". This is non-encyclopedic language, which in a scientific article would not stand for a minute. As stated in WP:SOURCES, "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science." To my mind, a scientific discussion of oxytocin's effects should come from such sources. They would never engage in such non-neutral language. I have added some scientific sources to balance this section, it's clear that there's no scientific consensus on oxytocin's effects after sex, so those quoted as drawing behavioral conclusions from it are merely speculating. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 16:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Rather than make multiple small changes at once, I have found it easier to make them all at once. I'll explain them here, as they won't fit in the edit summary. On the suicide sentence, it is in there, the source was incorrect. They are also 8 times, not 6 times more likely. I've corrected it. The link between sexual activity and depression is supported by clinical experience, and a clinical psychologist backs it up. It is supported by the source. I also moved part of the quote dealing with cutting back to the depression section as i think they are related. I kept other parts of it in the "correlation" section where I think it is more appropriate. I also restored a quote from the SADD CEO. Yes, he never uses the word "shocked," but he does say it is "startling," so I don't think this is a stretch. Also, he is a reliable source, so I don't believe he needs to back it up in this document. His word can be trusted. I also restored the "rampant" quote, but the ref was wrong for it, so I fixed it. It comes from an article in which the author spoke to numerous experts, including the director of the CDC's Adolescent and School Health program. The ref says "nearly everyone agrees" on this. -- Illuminato ( talk) 00:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I have reordered the sections, to establish some basic facts and statistics about teenage sexual activity first. I've moved the section on "social aspects" down, because I'm totally unclear on the grouping of topics in that section, and placing it first in the article seems totally out of context -- social aspects of sexual activity are not the most important subject here, in my opinion. Also, the section seems to repeat material that's already contained in other sections. In general, it seems to discuss a trend toward more "casual sex" among teens, but it groups other topics in there as well, and all of these topics are addressed elsewhere. Reducing the redundancy of these topics would improve the article, as it's getting overly long -- now topping 50K of readable prose. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 17:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I've tried several times to edit the section that relates to abstinence-only
The recent compromise language "Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the only approach to take, in accordance with the teachings of many churches that forbid sex outside of marriage." is better than the original language, but it still seems problematic. It is better, because it does not proclaim abstinence-only as a Christian Value which, of course, it is not. I understand and respect that some conservative churches and religions advocate abstinence-only, but it is not universal, and should not be expressed as if it were.
The problematic part of this compromise language, as I see it anyway, is: 1) Churches have no authority to "forbid" anything. They teach doctrine. So, "In accordance with the teachings..." sounds great; "forbid sex outside of marriage" is not great language. 2) "Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the only approach to take..." Might sound better as something like "Some religious organizations teach that sexual abstinence is the moral approach to take" or soemthing like that. After all, Islam and Judaism also teach that to some degree. The language "only approach to take" generalizes too much as not all churches, or even most churches would phrase it that way. 3) The references are not so good either. 127 "The Bible condemns fornication, see Corinthians 6:18-19. " applies only to some Christians, and not all religious groups. First Corinthians also does not condemn fornication, it says "Flee from immorality". Which of course, says either a great deal, or very little about abstinence depending on what you want to believe it means. It certainly does not directly address "abstinence-only". 4) In reference 128 it addresses how the Catholic, Baptist and Pentacostal religions view a number of things. 1) The Cathechism of the Catholic church speaks about many things. I don't think it would be difficult to say that they view Chastity as valuable and teach that abstinence is a moral virtue. They don't forbid or condemn non-chastity however. 2) Baptists have a set of basic beliefes and teachings, related to "abstinence-only" the closest thing they teach is "Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including adultery, homosexuality, and pornography". So, they do not speak of abstinence of chastity directly. A large number of Baptists do not believe that non-abstinence is itself sexually immoral, but more related to more complex situations. 3) The Assemblies of God teaches that Homosexuality is a sin and "He pointed out that the only alternative to heterosexual marriage is celibacy for the kingdom of heaven’s sake (Matthew 19:10–12)" Again, this says nothing about abstinence, and only says that alternative to celbacy or abstinence is heterosexual relations. It does not says those relations need to be only within the confines of marriage.
As the topic of the article is Adolescent Sexuality, and not religious views on sexuality, we should leave much of the religious stuff out.
I suggest: "Abstinence-only sex education teahes teenagers that they should be sexually abstinent until marriage and does not provide information about contraception. In the Kaiser study, 34% of high-school principals said their school's main message was abstinence-only. Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the best approach to take, in accordance with the teachings of many churches." The citations left out, as they don;t apply for the reasons given. Atom ( talk) 21:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-- Jamesad ( talk) 04:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)James
In regards to the question of oral sex being less risky than vaginal sex, please take the time to read at least the results and discussion sections of the source provided. Here's a link to full text.
“ | Independent of gender, adolescents who reported having vaginal sex (with or without also having oral sex) were more likely than adolescents who reported having only oral sex to experience any positive consequence and any negative consequence of having sex (Table 3). | ” |
“ | Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex. | ” |
— Brady and Halpern-Felsher p. 223 |
If the article is going to say that adolescents view oral sex as being less risky, we shouldn't marginalize that view by suggesting its only held by misguided teenagers. - Headwes ( talk) 05:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Brady and Halpern says:
"In comparison with adolescents who engaged in oral sex and/or vaginal sex, adolescents who engaged only in oral sex were less likely to report experiencing a pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection, feeling guilty or used, having their relationship become worse, and getting into trouble with their parents as a result of sex. Adolescents who engaged only in oral sex were also less likely to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of sex. Boys were more likely than girls to report feeling good about themselves, experiencing popularity, and experiencing a pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection as a result of sex, whereas girls were more likely than boys to report feeling bad about themselves and feeling used. "
See where it says "...less likely to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of sex" and "girls were more likely than boys to report feeling bad about themselves and feeling used. "
This doesn't support positive outcome, it says that the results are mixed with positive and negative outcomes.
The statement is made in the article "Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks a claim one study supports" When that study (Brady and Halpern) does not say that. The study may say that adolescents believe it to carry fewer physical and emotional risks, but the study says the results are a mixed bag, with significant negative emotional risks. We can't say that the studysupports their view, because it doesn't. Atom ( talk) 14:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey, look -- I respect your view and intentions. My personal opion sides with you and what the paragraph says. Howerver, remaining true to a citation, rather than slanting it in a different view is important. The integrity of the article (already terribly slanted) and Wikipedia is important.
The Paragraph says:
"While New York Times columnist David Brooks has written, "Reports of an epidemic of teenage oral sex are .. greatly exaggerated"[42], the National Center for Health Statistics has found a quarter of 15-year-old girls have performed it, and more than half of all 17-year-old girls have.[3] About 12% of teens aged 13-16 have had oral sex, and 13% of the same teens have had sexual intercourse.[17] The 2007 Guttmacher Institute study found that slightly more than half (55%) of 15– to 19-year-olds have engaged in heterosexual oral sex, 50% have engaged in vaginal sex and 11% have had anal sex and that the prevalence of both vaginal and oral sex among adolescents has remained steady over the past decade.[5] Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks,[43][44][45] a claim one study supports.[40]"
The Gist of what it implies is researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents.
The citation we are debating, Brady and Halpern Adolescents’ Reported Consequences of Having Oral Sex Versus Vaginal Sex it describes itself as "The study examined whether adolescents’ initial consequences of sexual activity differ according to type of sexual activity and gender."
The conclusion of the study was (an exact quote) "Results of the present study support the conceptualization of adolescent sexual behavior, including engagement in oral sex, as medical and public health issues. Parents and health professionals should talk with adolescents about how they can cope with and reduce the likelihood of experiencing negative physical, social, and emotional consequences of having sex, so that decisions to engage in sex are made thoughtfully and are more likely to lead to positive physical and mental health outcomes. Health professionals and other adults should also talk with adolescents about how decisions to engage in any type of sexual activity may have important consequences. "
I have bolded the portion that stands out for me as relevant to the paragraph in our article being discussed.
The study makes three important implications:
To get back to the point, see what I said above "The Gist of what it implies is researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents." The study does not conclude that. Most people would not read the report and say that the results of the study asserted that.
Getting to the two specific points you made: first: "I think this line makes it pretty clear the study does support the claim: "Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex." Yes, we can say the study supports their view--it comes right out and says it does. Of course its a mixed bag... Did you really expect a study saying there could never be any adverse consequences to oral sex?"
The beginning of the study, introducting the topic does, indeed say:
"Previous research showed that adolescents expect engagement in oral sex to result in fewer negative physical health, social, and emotional consequences than vaginal sex.2,8 The present study is the first to examine whether the initial consequences of sexual activity that adolescents report actually differ according to type of sex (ie, oral versus vaginal). Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex. In comparison with adolescents who had vaginal sex, adolescents who had only oral sex were less likely to report experiencing a pregnancy or STI, feeling guilty or used, having their relationship become worse, and getting into trouble with their parents as a result of having sex."
In the study the paragraph that follows that puts the first paragraph in juxtaposition however: "From the data presented above, one might be tempted to conclude that engagement in oral sex among adolescents is of less concern than engagement in other forms of sexual activity. However, this conclusion might not be warranted. Because we focused on initial consequences of having sex in this young sample of adolescents, adolescents who engaged in only oral sex might have been less sexually experienced and had less opportunity to experience negative consequences. Engagement in oral sex was also not without negative consequences. Approximately one third of adolescents who had only oral sex reported 1 negative consequence of engaging in sexual behavior. Adolescents who had only oral sex were also less likely than their peers with vaginal sex experience to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of having sex. The decision to engage in any type of sexual activity may thus result in negative social and emotional consequences or failure to experience anticipated positive consequences. "
Second: "To be more specific, Table 3 shows that vaginal sex only was >3 times as likely to result in a negative outcome as oral sex only, while vaginal and oral was >4 times as likely to result in a negative outcome."
Table three: "Consequences of Engagement in Sexual Behavior According to Gender and Type of Sex" says that "Vaginal sex only vs Oral sex only" had "Any negative consequence" as 3.75 (as you suggest) and for the same category "Had any positive consequence" as 3.75. Showing Vaginal sex as (in your words) >3 times as likely to result in a positive outcome". The table has a variety of other statistics, and is quite complex. One should probably rely on the implications and conclusion made by the study, rather than generalizing one statistic in a logistic regression model with thirteen dependent variables. One can suggest, for instance that Males are 1.64 times more likely to experience any positive consequences than females are. That by itself isn't entirely meaningful.
Summary:
My point. The study cited has lots of interesting things in it. We should rewrite a portion of some of this article to show the results, particularly " greater proportion of adolescents in our study reported positive consequences of having sex than reported negative consequences." But, one can not in all honesty say that the results or sumamry of the report are "Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex", or more specifically, that the study supports the specific statement in the article "Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks." The study does not address that, it addresses something similar.
Regards to you, Atom ( talk) 18:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This article should focus on how adolescent sexuality in the United States compares to/differs from that in other countries. There already is an article about adolescent sexuality, general material should go there. There is too much fluff (verbose quotations, saying things multiple times, etc.) in this article. It needs editing to take the material common to adolescent sexuality in general out of it, and reduce the duplication. Splitting it like this seems likely to invite more duplication, more rambling. Zodon ( talk) 02:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I have added the verylong template, as the readable prose in this article is now over 62K. I advocate judicious pruning, rather than splits that may create POV forks of the content (as has come up before on this talk page). Other thoughts? I may begin suggesting bold edits to prune repetitive content as I have time. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 02:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I have made a number of edits to get the readable prose down to 60K again. Much of my edits were in removing what I consider to be repetitive, exaggerated and biased quotes. I will leave the verylong template up for now, but if we can agree to these removals, the article is within length at this point and the verylong template can come down.-- Sfmammamia ( talk) 08:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I see that my request above has been ignored and quotes added back in that re-inflate the length of this article to 62K. I will re-edit the article back down to 60K. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 04:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The article focuses heavily on negative aspects, needs more coverage of benefits/positive aspects of adolescent sexuality.
Fine to note the problems and less healthy behaviors, but also should discuss benefits and realistic healthier approaches. Zodon ( talk) 08:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually the benefits are universal to virtually all those who engage in the activity, however the negative effects are particularly prevalent (and thus relevant) amongst the sexually experienced adolescent, also the human body (once sexually mature) does not drastically change thus the timing of first activity does not give or deny any benefits other than the perviously stated...learning about sexuality will occur whether activity starts when in adolescence or 'old' age...it makes no difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LENZ ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
In this paragraph, from the Family section of the article. The second sentence (the quotation) should not be in the article. It is plainly not neutral in POV and oversimplifies a complex subject.
Researchers at the University of Arizona, University of Texas-Austin and Wake Forest University have found that girls who have positive relationships with their fathers wait longer before they have sex. Fathers can explain sex "in a way that mom can't, to let daughter know that for boys teen sex is about conquest, fun and adventure; while for girls, teen sex is about expressing love and affection," according to Dr. Patrick Wanis, a human behavior expert.Ernest Hooper (July 27, 2008). "What only a dad can tell a daughter about sex" (html). MercuryNews.com. Retrieved 2008-08-26.
The relevance of the whole paragraph to the topic of Adolescent sexuality in the US is not adequately established. Rather than wasting space with an unneeded quotation of dubious value (and even more space trying to ballance the POV), at least the quotation should be deleted. The material should be connected to the topic of the article, or the whole paragraph should go.
Why does the paragraph need to be here? What is specific to the US about this? Zodon ( talk) 02:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Abstinence describes a variety of sexual behaviors. It is not just "absence of sexual activity" (which could equally well describe asexuality). It is sexual behavior characterized by the absence of some or all sexual activity. (e.g., certain things are possible, but avoided). A broad variety of behaviors are considered to be abstinence, from refraining from vaginal intercourse to much broader restraint. As noted in the "Social aspects" section, significant percentages of teens regard oral sex or genital touching as being abstinence. Since sexual behavior can include things like talking, looking, hugging, fantasy, dreaming, etc., it may be possible to refrain from all such behavior, but such an extreme level of restraint is probably atypical. Thus abstinence makes logical sense in the sexual behavior section.
Since it is often used to describe those who do not engage in some of the other activities listed in the sexual behaviors section, it makes sense from an organizational standpoint as well. Zodon ( talk) 19:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This edit has multiple issues, doesn't belong in article as it stands.
Illuminato – for shame. This issue was settle last year – see Talk:Adolescent_sexuality_in_the_United_States#Oxytocin_discussion_and_sources. The role of oxytocin really has no relevance this article. The idea that bonding patterns facilitated by oxytocin has some bearing on the ethics of casual sex, while being a favorite canard of abstinence education advocates, is totally without scientific merit. I am hereby demanding that you stop trying to add this nonsense and am warning you that I will continue to revert it and take this to moderation if need be. Peter G Werner ( talk) 03:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I have removed, once again, the exaggerated statements that were discussed over a year ago. There is no consensus for them. I have made an edit to indicate that there is no scientific consensus on the behaviorial effects of oxytocin on relationships. Once psychologist or the other theorizing on this does not rise to the level of reliability need to state this as if it was undisputed in the scientific community. Illuminato, I suggest you read the main article on oxytocin and refrain from making repeated insertions of disputed statements, as that could be viewed as tendentious editing -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 19:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
This article has been extremely long for some time, having now reached almost 70k of readable prose. I have already agreed above that some editing could and should probably be done to the article. However, I don't feel this is an entirely workable solution. For one thing, I doubt that removing the "so-and-so says" will bring it down to an acceptable level. Secondly, while some information is not-US specific and could be moved to the main article, I think there are vast differences between adolescent sexuality in the United States and in, say, Ghana.
Both of these are good strategies to take in reducing the readable prose. However, as time goes on the article is sure to grow in content. A more long term solution and different is thus needed. I am again proposing a split in the article, and I hope this one will be found more acceptable. I propose that sections 4 and 5, and possibly 6, be removed and placed in a new article, Effects of sex on American Adolescents. In their place will be left a link to the main article and a summary, including any US specific info in them, (e.g. "Each year, between 8 and 10 million American teens contract a sexually transmitted disease.")
I had considered a general Effects of Adolescent Sexuality, however I don't think that would be a good idea. For one reason, the cultural milieu in which the sex acts take place are diverse enough across the world that I don't think generalizations could really be made beyond something like pregnancy. Two 17 year old friends having casual sex in the US is something very different than a 15 year old married couple in Africa, or a 14 and 28 year old married couple in India, having sex. Besides, there is enough research on American kids alone to fill a library. We can certainly devote a Wikipedia article to it.
This should bring the readable prose down by about 15k-20k. After that, perhaps we could go for an article entitled Sexual behavior of American adolescents with an expanded section 1. What say you all? -- Illuminato ( talk) 15:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Considering how severely imbalanced this article is toward views that conflict with this study, the inclusion of this study is strongly warranted as step toward restoring some balance. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 01:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
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I'm uncomfortable with that phrasing for the 'education' or 'perspectives' section. How about we rename to say, 'Perspectives on educating adolescents about sexuality'? Sexperts 21:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
See adolescent sexuality That article is mean't to have a GLOBAL COVERAGE of the subject so i think this article should be deleted and/or simply redirect to the main article as its creation along with adolescent sexuality in Britain and adolescent sexuality in the United States would put undue strain on the wiki servers if so many articles are created.
We have a main article, let's use it! We can easily integrate what is here into the main article once protection is removed and disputes have been resolved... then text can be mined for POV'S etc, and we can perhaps put major pov's into a seperate article on controversy over adolescent sexuality as has been proposed by myself in talk:adolescent sexuality —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nateland ( talk • contribs) 21:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
This article is biased. It uses questionable research and quotations of sweeping breadth to support a specifc moral agenda on teen sexuality. Its point of view is Victorian Age Christianity which it tries to disguise in pseudo-scientific terms. It should be deleted unless Wikipedia allows pure propaganda as opposed to clearly identified opinions.
DialM4Mayhem 21:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)DialMrMayhem
I feel that this doesn't meet the GA criteria for two reasons, so I have failed it. In my opinion, although the article is very well sourced, it fails WP:WIAGA criteria numbers 1 and 4. Specifically, although the article does attempt to be thorough, it has a loose framework and mainly seems to have text in order to hold together citations and quotes that the authors wanted to include. I also really can't describe an article as "well written" when from start to finish, it does a significant portion of its exposition through direct quotes. It also, I think, fails criterion 4 (neutrality) as it seems to spend a lot of time on the viewpoint that adolescents view sex lightly. While there are lots of inline citations, the justification for all those claims strikes me as very anecdotal, and continually quoting the sources in the text seems overly deferential to the sources that have been selected. I'm not saying that the conclusions aren't justified, I just feel like this reads more like a research paper with a position than an attempt to present all viewpoints. Mango juice talk 16:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the section, yet again. It was removed intentionally not by mistake. Besides it being uncited, unreferenced POV, it discusses the current U.S. government view, and not past views. With the recent change in congress, who knows what views the current government has or will espouse. I don't see how the text, even if supported by citation, is relevant or adds to the understanding of the topic of the article. Please try to develop something sunstantive, rather than throwing in a stub that doesn't stand on its own to ffer value to the article. And please cite.
"Official Federal government policy has been to emphasize sexual abstinence or pre-marital chastity, particularly in sex education with a focus on abstinence-only sex education addressing issues of sexual activity by adolescents rather than the harm reduction approach of the safer sex focus. "
Atom 00:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I added the original section - for the article to be improved something on official responses is required, it would certainly provide useful context for US adolescents who may access the article. As an Australian I am amazed at the US discussion at times, the latest reportage on HPV vaccination being an example. Paul foord 22:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned about the balance of the article. It looks as if it was originally written as an article against adolescent sexuality, rather than to present a balanced view of ther facts related to the topic. The viewpoint that learning about sexuality during adolescence is normal and healthy should be the predominant message. Discussing the many difficulties, pitfalls and problems with going to quickly certainly should be discussed. It should be the goal of the article to present the topic in a realistic light. The key to building healthy long-term relationships is in learning about sexuality and relationships while in adolescence, and avoiding the pitfalls mentioned in the article. Avoiding learning about these issues is what is responsible for the many difficulties adults in their 20's and sometimes 30's have. If they had been exposed to learning about intimacy appropriately when they were developing emotionally, they would have less problems later. Atom 17:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Atomaton, as I have said on your talk page, I really think it does a disservice to the experts quoted here, not to mention the article itself, to pigeon hole the information presented on adolescent sexuality as either being for or against. Having read many of their works I know they hold much more nuanced positions then "yes its a good thing" or "no its a bad thing." Further, much of the information you keep putting under "perspectives against" is really just opposed to casual sex among teens, not sexuality in general. I've removed the sections again, but before it turns into an edit war I will be asking for a Wikipedia:Third opinion. -- Illuminato 22:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Please hold on for a moment-providing an informed opinion here is going to mean having a quick look at the cited sources, and there are quite a few here. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 05:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Article text: "The "early initiation [of] sexual behaviors [takes] a toll on teens' mental health. The result... can be 'dependency on boyfriends and girlfriends, serious depression around breakups and cheating, [and a] lack of goals.'"[9] When teens engage in sexual activities that are not part of intimate relationship then "they're not then developing all of the really important skills like trust and communication and all those things that are the key ingredients for a healthy, long-lasting relationship."[16] When having causal sex teens are "pretending to say it's just sexual and nothing else. That's an arbitrary slicing up of the intimacy pie. It's not healthy."[17]
USA Today:
"All of us in the field are still trying to get a handle on how much of this is going on and trying to understand it from a young person's point of view," says Stephanie Sanders, associate director of The Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender and Reproduction at Indiana University, which investigates sexual behavior and sexual health."
""If we are indeed headed as a culture to have a total disconnect between intimate sexual behavior and emotional connection, we're not forming the basis for healthy adult relationships," says James Wagoner, president of Advocates for Youth, a reproductive-health organization in Washington."
The article reports one side of this as true, while many others say the jury is still out or that there is insufficient data. We must not take sides this way, reporting all views in a debate or contested issue is a critical part of neutrality. The article must mention the expert disagreement.
Article text: "Increasingly, teenage sexual encounters in the United States do not occur in the context of a romantic relationship, but in an impersonal, merely sexual "hook up."
USA Today: "Researchers cannot conclude that the percentage of teens having oral sex is greater than in the past. There is no comparison data for girls, and numbers for boys are about the same as they were a decade ago in the National Survey of Adolescent Males: Currently, 38.8% have given oral sex vs. 38.6% in 1995; 51.5% have received it vs. 49.4% in 1995."
Again, looks like the jury's out here.
Those are only a couple of examples, but to respond to the third opinion-the whole article has glaring POV problems like this. I see some researchers saying "This is bad", some saying "This is fine", and yet others saying "The data is insufficient, and we can't know what effect this will have on the kids until they actually do grow up." The article, in contrast, approaches the subject with overwhelming negativity. While those who take a negative view should certainly be reported, this article gives those voices a significant amount of undue weight.
Oh, as to what the third opinion asked about, I agree that "for" and "against" sections would be highly counterproductive here-most of the experts cited have a much more nuanced view, and we would do our readers a far greater service in properly paraphrasing those views, providing countervailing ones, and having a good neutral article, then trying to pigeonhole nuanced expert views (which may contain elements of neither or both) into arbitrary categories. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 05:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
We disagree. Sorry, but there are clearyl distinct views on the subject. Most of the content here is a POV oriented around suggesting that they are against adolescent sexuality. I am fine with that view being presented. But, trying to make a "neutral" article isn;t possible. The "nuanced" views as you call it, can be expressed to support the different viewpoints. I respect that you would like it to be different. I hope that you respect that these issues happen all of the time on Wikipedia, which is why we have a firm WP:NPOV policy to help deal with that. Atom 21:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't wish to escalate anything, but I don't see how you continuing to remove section headings that show the broad differences on the issue is productive in preventing that. If/when the article is better written, and more than a collection of quotes on one side of the fence (regardless of the broader views of those individual authors, not completely expressed in the quotes) I can see it being necessary to express that their are firm viewpoints on both sides of the issue. Why not start developing that now? Atom 23:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Atom, you keep removing the line about such relationships being "less sustained, often not monogamous and with lower levels of satisfaction" because you think it just someones opinion, and not fact. However, if you check the source, you will see it comes from a 28-year study, where Collins and his colleagues followed 180 individuals from birth. I've reinstated that sentence, again. -- Illuminato 22:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I did not remove it because I felt that the quote was not accurate. I removed it because the comment, from a basic editorial perspective, does not have a place there. How is that opinion (even if made by a psychologist who has done research) support what is being said in the article? Showing a bias for monogamy doesn't help the quote either. Monogampy versue polyamory doesn;t have any relevance in that section. Many people fine polyamory to be more satisfying and more sustained than monogamy, but that also doesn't have relevance in the section in the article. I was being balanced in trying to remove the quote, as the other alternative is to drag more of that authors study into the article. We can do that if you prefer, but I am not sure that will improve the quality of the article. Atom 23:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
What about the option, "I wanted to have sex very badly"? It seems to me that this option has been overlooked by this study and thus is biased. This option seems to me to be a main reason why someone would want to have sex: because they wanted to!. For example, if I were faced with this poll, my answer in essay form would be "Because I was horny," but in this multiple-choice poll it might be any of these reasons simply because the main reason for wanting to have sex, which is wanting to have sex, was overlooked. -- Strangerer ( Talk | Contribs) 23:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, that wasn't included in the survey. (Believe me, at this time I was DESPERATE to find something to counterbalance the bias of this article and this is all that I could find that Illuminato and his IP adress 'side kick' didn't delete. Although yes, it IS limited in that respect.
"Almost half of boys (47%) believe that oral sex is "not a big deal" but only slightly more than a third of girls (38%) feel the same way."
Discuss at Talk:Adolescent sexuality. Iamcuriousblue 21:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
if you follow the link for oxytocin it says that its part of both sex and bonding. i dont get what is totally disputed about that?
Iamcuriousblue, what is the factual accuracy that you are disputing? -- Illuminato 05:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Illuminato, we've given you dozens of specifics. Going into very deep detail multiple times over months of debate. You've either dodged the questions, denied them, reverted them, or used other unfair means to control this and other articles. You ARE a gatekeeper. And your censorship (Yes i'm calling it that.) of this article is an undeniable (except to you) problem. HOW MANY TIMES have we sugested things that need fixing, improvement, or otherwise?. Even while you delete and archive discussions to feign innocence. YOU know you've violated wikipedia policy and the trust and respect of other editors numerous times.
You won't listen to reason, you won't listen to a vast majority consensus, you won't follow the guidelines of the site you're editing, you push your point of view onto articles despite the cries of everyone else.
You are as bad as the 'emotional distress and psychological damage' you talk about so much. Illuminato, I can tell you're realizing you can't control articles based on adolescent sexuality forever. I've seen it coming and it is now happening.
A growing majority is pushing back against you. And you fight back ever more viciously, I urge you. STOP NOW. Before it's too late and you lose the last ounce of respect we might have for you and your opinions.
It's true that they say "The more endangered an animal gets, the harder it will fight back". Illuminato, i'm comparing you to that animal. And I think it's an accurate comparison.
With your views as the animal, the endangerment coming from the other side that disagrees with your actions. But you're a human, (I'm guessing), you're sentient. So don't act like an animal. Drop your opinions, I have long since resolved to not try and force my POV into the article and only to try and make it factual.
Do the same. I beg of you. On behalf of your sense of morality, and virtue, and value. And on behalf of me, you, and everyone else involved in editing this article.
It has been 4 months. Let it be enough! contribute wisely and let this article be neutral... Isn't that enough? Nateland 02:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless you can prove, or at least question, the factual accuracy of X, Y and Z then the tag should go What do you think I and others have been doing for the past four months?. Look through the talk pages, histories, links, this and that. Of course you won't, because you dodge the truth. And even an appeal to your sense of morality is ineffectual. Good god, this is crazy. Nateland 22:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Jesus, can't you read Illuminato? There's a section right above this one titled "oxytocin" – it links to a Slate article pointing out that the oxytocin hypothesis bandied about by abstinence advocates is pure junk science. The tags definitely should not go – the tags state that the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed. You bet they're disputed – I'm formally disputing them! You've already been blatantly disregarding WP:NPOV for at least 4 months. I'll take removal of the tags on this article as evidence that you intend to disregard WP:OWN as well. Iamcuriousblue 23:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Illuminato, you or someone else must have removed that section saying adolescent sexual activity can cause problems with relationships in the future. I'll track the last revision which included that statement. Anyways, this conversation is going nowhere. User:Illuminato, you've been adverse to any discussion that jeopardizes your control of the article. Nateland 23:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
When engaging in sexual acts the body produces oxytocin, a chemical produced in the brain to promote feelings of connection and love. Oxytocin helps a mother bond with her infant during breast feeding[30] and "surges through the bodies of men and women during orgasm."[31] When a man achieves orgasm, his oxytocin levels can rise up to 500% of their normal levels.[32] When "a man ejaculates, he bonds utterly with" his partner.[33] When having causal sex teens are "pretending to say it's just sexual and nothing else. That's an arbitrary slicing up of the intimacy pie. It's not healthy."[34] Depression, alcohol abuse, anorexia, and emotional disturbance can all afflict adolescents as a result.[27]
first off, that whole paragraph seems waaayy out of place. Second of all, you contradict yourself Illuminato, this makes it seem like casual causes people to bond.
Third off. A HYPOTHESIS?, are you aware of the scientific method and spectrum?. A hypothesis isn't even a theory!. Hypothesis don't even have to be tested out, you can make a hypothesis saying "Dogs are really worms" and it doesn't have to be tested. Yet it'll still be considered a hypothesis.
Hypothesis don't belong in wikipedia except under very special circumstances which I doubt 'oxytocin' fits into. Maybe if it was a theory (1 step up on the scale) It'd be acceptable. But a hypothesis?, give me a break!. It doesn't matter who cites it. A hypothesis is still unable to prove anything. (I can't stress this enough). It needs to go Nateland 22:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Refuting what you can, and dodging what you can't as usual.... Anyways, my main point is that. What in the hell is a paragraph on Oxytocin doing in the middle of an article on adolescent sexuality?. It's as off as that Lynn Ponton quote.
My god, tell me and don't dodge this. What does a paragraph saying what Oxytocin is do to improve this articles coverage of what adolescent sexuality is?. It's almost, but not quite as out of place as saying.
Apples are fruits. In the middle of an article on genetic engineering. (Except Oxytocin and Adolescent sexuality are both within the scope of Sexology. But are widely different sub studies).
Oh yes, Illuminato. You were calling that paragraph on Oxytocin a hypothesis.
It is slanted. It's mostly anti-sexual and I'm sick and tired of constantly citing why. It's a bit less in violation of
WP:NPOV now then it was before but it still needs a lot of work. Which can't get done because of your endless list of reverts. Oh no, it has two sentences on views that don't think adolescent sexuality is bad and fifty that say it is. While it might not be as extreme a slant as that, it's still noticeable. And your actions only keep that problem in existence.
Hello, I have looked at some of the sources and found that some of the information in the article had serious omissions with respect to the text in the article. I will go through parts to show the changes I have made, since it may be difficult to see what happened in the edit summary.
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Increasingly, teenage sexual encounters in the United States do not occur in the context of a romantic relationship, but in an impersonal, merely sexual hookup. [2] More than half of sexually active teens have had sexual partners they are not dating. [3] [4] This is a "a genuine and puzzling change in teen sexual behavior" [5] and a "profound shift in the culture of high school dating and sex." [6] One thing "nearly everyone agrees on is that STDs and risky 'anything but intercourse' behaviors are rampant among teens." [7] | Increasingly, teenage sexual encounters in the United States do not occur in the context of a romantic relationship, but in a merely sexual hookup. [2] More than half of sexually active teens have had sexual partners they are not dating. [3] [4] Social critic Caitlin Flanagan calls this a "a genuine and puzzling change in teen sexual behavior" [5]; food and travel lifestyle writer Alexandra Hall terms it a "profound shift in the culture of high school dating and sex." [6] Sexual behaviors that involve 'anything but intercourse' and sexually transmitted diseases are widespread among teenagers; Lloyd Kolbe, director of the CDC's Adolescent and School Health program, called it "a serious epidemic." [7] While 90% of teens surveyed in a poll commissioned by NBC News and People magazine knew they could get an STD from having sexual intercourse, only 67% said that they use protection every time they have sex. [4] |
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In 2002 the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health reported a "dramatic trend toward the early initiation of sex." [8] The teenage years are when most in the United States first have intercourse. The current data suggests that by the time a person turns 18 slightly more than half of females and nearly two-thirds of males will have had intercourse. [9] | In 2002, the
National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health reported that the percentage of teenagers who report having had sexual intercourse declined between 1988 and 1998, but also reported a significant trend toward early initiation of sex. In 1998, 50% of teenage females and 55% of males reported ever having had sexual intercourse, a change from 53% and 60% a decade before. In 1998, 19% of adolescent females 14 years of age and younger reported having had sexual intercourse, but ten years earlier, this number was 10%.
[10] Before "age 15, a majority of first intercourse experiences among females are reported to be non-voluntary."
[9]
[11]
The teenage years are when most in the United States first have intercourse. The current data suggests that by the time a person turns 18, slightly more than half of females and nearly two-thirds of males will have had intercourse. [9] Although most teenagers have sexual intercourse as adolescents, most of these teens are not "sexually active"; in 1997, only 37% of females and 33% of males who reported ever having had sexual intercourse said that they had sex in the past 3 months. [10] |
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In a 2003 study, 89% of girls reported feeling pressured by boys to have sex. [12] Before "age 15, a majority of first intercourse experiences among females are reported to be non-voluntary." [9] [13] | In a 2003 study, 89% of girls reported feeling pressured by boys to have sex, while 49% of boys reported feeling pressured by girls to have sex. In contrast, 67% of boys felt pressured by other boys, while 53% of girls felt pressured by other girls. [12] |
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A 2000 survey conducted by the
Henry Kaiser Family Foundation for
Seventeen magazine found that of 15 to 17 year olds who have had sexual intercourse:
However, since that survey was taken the dominant form of teenage sexuality has changed from penile-vaginal intercourse to oral sex. [15] |
A 2005 poll commissioned by
NBC News and
People magazine found that, of the teens surveyed, the reasons they had sexual intercourse for the first time were:
[4]
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Almost half of boys (47%) of boys but fewer girls (38%) believe that oral sex is "not a big deal." [4] Despite this, there is a large "discrepancy when it comes to willingness to perform oral sex" with girls giving, and boys receiving. [16] Oral sex is "now commonly performed by very young girls outside of romantic relationships, casually and without any expectation of reciprocation." [5] | Almost half of boys (47%) of boys but fewer girls (38%) believe that oral sex is "not a big deal." Despite this, there is a large "discrepancy when it comes to willingness to perform oral sex" with girls giving, and boys receiving. [4] According to social critic Caitlin Flanagan, Oral sex is "now commonly performed by very young girls outside of romantic relationships, casually and without any expectation of reciprocation." [5] On the other hand, New York Times columnist David Brooks wrote, "Reports of an epidemic of teenage oral sex are .. greatly exaggerated." [17] According to the previously referenced survey, 12% of teens, or about one in ten, have had oral sex. [4] |
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Oui, merci beacoup pour contribuer bon informatique Ce article. Translation (Yes, thank you for contributing good information to this article)
At long last someone has made what is probably the best contribution d'informatique to this article in a long long time. (Thanks Strangerer :-). Better than I could do!. Nateland 03:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the disputed tag because the few lines about oxytocin are all properly cited, and no one has produced any evidence in the two weeks since the tag went up that anything in the article is incorrect. I fail to see why that tag should remain. -- Illuminato 23:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
For the third time since April 17 I have removed the totally disputed tag, for reasons explained above in this section. For the third time Iamcuriousblue has put it back in, saying in the edit summary that if I don't like it I can take it to mediation. However, the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal's first criteria for accepting a case is that there must be a discussion already going on. I've asked for specifics on what is factually inaccurate but none were given. I was referred to an article that casts doubt on the idea that "oxytocin becomes deleted and one loses the ability to bond with sexual partners or one's children." I don't believe the article says that at all and thus am at a loss as to what Iam believes in inaccurate. In anycase since he refuses to discuss it here, and since the MC won't take the case unless there is a discussion, I have again removed the tag. -- Illuminato 03:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Unindent. If you can find a reputable source that says casual sex is a healthy behavior for teens to engage in then please share it. I haven't found one yet. Also, why is including information about possible emotional harm any different that physical harm? Or do you also object to including information about how STDs can be contracted? I again disagree that it is widely regarded as junk science. Your Slate article makes the case that it doesn't decrease the capacity to bond in the future, but thats not what this article says, as I have mentioned time and again. I'll ask again (whats the definition of insanity again?): what is in the article that you think is factually incorrect? -- Illuminato 19:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Most of the content of this article doesn't seems to claim to be United State specific. So, why is it in an article about Adolescent sexuality in the United States ? Shouldn't most of this content be in a general article about Adolescent sexuality ? Shmget 18:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, Illuminato's defense is that 99.99999% of the people who made these 'statements' and 'discoveries' are from the Uinted States, of course, he was once campaigning to have only this 99.9999% US citizens quoted in the main article called adolescent sexuality. Right now the whole debate is contained to a few articles instead of the eight or nine articles they once inhabited. Basically put, Illuminato has just been une doleur de la cul. :-(, sadly enough. Nateland 21:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, since mediation clearly didn't get us anywhere it looks like we are back to this talk page. As I said above, from reviewing this page I can find two complaints you have about oxytocin: 1) "There is no scientific evidence that long-term ability to bond is negatively affected by casual sexual encounters," and 2) "The subject of oxytocin and its relationship to bonding doesn't really have any special relevance to the subject of adolescent sexuality, much less adolescent sexuality in the United States." As to the first I, again, disagree that the article makes this claim. As to the second, I agree that it is does not have any special relevance to AS or AS in the US, but I think that is it is relevant. How can we move this discussion forward? -- Illuminato 19:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The article under " Effects of sexual activity", start with "The American Academy of Pediatrics has identified the sexual behaviors of American adolescents as a major public health problem". The reference material cited to support this claim state "Although other developed countries have similar rates of early sexual intercourse, the United States has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the world." Which indicate that it is not sexual intercouse in itself that are a 'major health problem', since the same alleged cause does not produce the same effect in similarly developed countries. The specificities of Sexuality in American teenager is not about sex, but about culture and extreme taboo. The Jackson Superball incident is an excellent illustration of the insanity of the situation. Yet the very next sentence after that claim about 'health problem', which in the reference is mostly an epidemiologic health thread - refer to an alledge psycological health thread, absolutely not supported by the reference given in the first sentence. The link given to 'support' the second phrase [9], is a blog entry that doesn't even support this thesis, except insofar as quoting the Bush administration requirement that such claim (sex outside mariage is harmful) be made.
The next sentence, which quote the same source, make even more outrageously unsupported claim. nothing in the 'reference link' even remotely support such wide-ranging and radical claims.
The next one "When taking part in hookups "the kids don't even look at each other. It's mechanical, dehumanizing." is merely an opinion, This cannot possibly back-up by fact, at best one could find some anecdotal evidence, but nothing justifying this sweeping generalisation of how allegedly 'teens' interact.
The last sentence of the paragraph build upon previous conclusions, which were un-supported, hence void.
The next paragraph start with a sentence that is not specific to teenager, and whose conclusion are irrelevant (the conclusion that casual sex does not foster long term relationship might be true, yet hardly specific of teenager-casual sex, nor is it relevant to any 'effect of sexual activity' chapter title covering the statement. Nor is it demonstrated that 'fostering long term relationship' is a vital and necessary justification of any activities. Beside the link given to 'support' the claim, doesn't not involve 'teens' (boston university's junior hardly qualify as 'clueless underdeveloped teens', or you have a much bigger problem on your had than casual sex...). Futermore that link is hardly a 'reference', yet it does indeed propagate the disputed claim about oxytocin - without of course any reference to support it, it conclude that "The irony is that girls aren't equipped to handle love." a good example of amphiboly
The next paragraph, first and second sentences quotes are mis-atrributed. the quoted element is in fact the words of Sabrina Weill, a former editor in chief at Seventeen magazine, which make her a reputable expert in child psychology of course, and an expert at defining what is 'normal behavior(tm)'.
Now to the 4th paragraph, the oxytocin paragraph.the 4th first sentence are not teen specific what-so-ever. The 3rd mention a 500% surge in male (without a reference base that doesn't mean much.. for all we now the normal level might be trace level, so any realease would represente a huge percetnage 'surge')
Yet the quoted material is interesting "Dr. Amen: Oxytocin is the chemical of trust and bonding. Men have significantly lower levels of it than women. In women, holding hands, kind looks, doing something special for someone our partner loves, are all ways to increase oxytocin. In turn, it increases their bonding to their partner. For men, an orgasm actually increases oxytocin, up to 500 percent. So men need orgasm to become more bonded and connected, while women need touch and talking in order to get to the place of wanting to help their partner have an orgasm."
So based on that reference, girl should stay in isolation and not touching nor talking to anybody to be 'protected' against the allegedly harmful effect of oxytocin alleged to result of casual-sex induced oxytocin surges. The rest of the paraggraph has abolutely not connection with the first 4th sentences, and are once again sweeping generalization based on an imaginary standard 'proto-teen'
And the final staw, that "Depression, alcohol abuse, anorexia, and emotional disturbance can all afflict adolescents as a result." CAN afflict ??? sure, solar flares too 'can' afflict... who knows... 'As a result?' Result of what ? oxytocin level, or claimed behavior of teens that are "pretending to say it's just sexual and nothing else" ???
I can go on, line by line. This article is nothing but a moralist rambling about the evil of sex. In that regard that justifies the part of the tile about 'in the United States'. There is no scientific or even rational support for any of it. Heck it even claim one thing and it's contrary in the same section. At first a "500% surge" in oxytocin made boys dangerously 'bonded' to their partner, to the point of causing depression, alcohol abuse, etc... But then few paragraph later it claims : "Boys are less likely to see sex as connected to an emotional relationship" So what is it ? oxytocin works or not ?
On the other hand, as notice from the very first reference of this section. "Although other developed countries have similar rates of early sexual intercourse, the United States has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the world." This very specific obsession with sex, not by teens, but by disturbed adults, might actually be the real core cause of the problems perceived here.
Shmget 00:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore the 'recommentaion' about abstinence should be read in context, as a preambule to a recommendation to promote safe-sex, and contraception. You know as weel as I do that the first part of the sentence was necessitated by the current political climate to be able to publish the second part. But a casual reader, not familiar with the Internal US politic would be mislead by your selective quote. Shmget 05:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Um... Illuminato, mediation DID get somewhere, the mediator suggested that the oxytocin be removed because he/she thought it didn't fit. You just rudely told the mediator off as well as everyone else who wanted that quote removed and are now acting like it doesn't matter and the dispute hasn't discussed.
In truth, it's been discussedto death, and you just keep dodging vital questions. I also dislike how you archived significant portions of this archive which contained much discussion relevant to the 'oxytocin hypothesis' without discussing first. MANY talk pages for controversial or big articles are far more than 75k. And considering your shady archiving in the past, it seems like you're using the ability to archive pages as a form of censorship. I won't stand for it!. Accept that your 'hypothesis' isn't accepted, quit arguing, and GET WITH THE PROGRAM.
That's all Nateland 00:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh yes, and Shmget, very well done. Although your grammar and spelling need a tiny bit of tuning up (It's ok, your quality of writing and getting the point across makes up for that 10,000 to hundredth power times). I agree, no one has really gone over the quotes and their references bit by bit for a long time. But because of your doing so... you've made a good point. It is moralist rambling. And I hope Illuminato will acknowledge the points that have been made but that you've clarified even MORE so that 'hopefully' our point will be 'simplified' enough so that he can't dodge around.... Nateland 01:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Something else to note: an interview with behavioral neuroscientist Jill Schneider in which she debunks the idea that oxytocin studies have any relevance to understanding of emotions around casual sex. Iamcuriousblue 02:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
In an effort to move this discussion along I am posting the current text of the paragraph that discusses oxytocin. If you have a problem with something in it, why don't you propose new text for it and we can discuss it.
Lets get some constructive comments here, rather than simply complaining. -- Illuminato 20:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Unident. Shmget, this is not a travel and food editor we are dealing with here, it is the author of over 10 books who is considered to be an expert. Yes, there is the exceptional claims policy, but I don't think this qualifies. For instance, one red flag warning that this might be an exceptional claim is that it doesn't appear anywhere in reputable news sources. The quote in question comes from USA Today and Dr. Coleman has been quoted and published widely, including appearances on Oprah. He is not a fringe theorist.
When we have a quote from an expert I don't think it is unreasonable to ask someone who claims there are "many more experts who disagree" to provide a source for that claim. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, if he could improve the article by citing a single expert who disagrees with Dr. Coleman I would welcome the addition. Also, I don't think the current phrasing is unfair to Dr. Coleman's intent. All I did was replace "Its" with a more descriptive phrase of what he was talking about. -- Illuminato 19:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I edited the hormonal section to try and get some compromise text in there on oxytocin. -- Illuminato 13:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear illuminato, I removed the link to Alexandra Hal's piece, because she is a self proclaim 'travel and food' expert. By no mean an authority on teenage sexual behavior. And her piece is an anecdotal account of the allege activity a few 'teens'. The text is not serious, is highly loaded in political reference, it used things like going back to the 'early 70's' to find an increase in percent of sexually active highschool student, or blaming the internet for teens in boston being "sexually advanced", i.e knowing anything at all about it. It is a amusing fiction, but by no strech of the imagination serious, rigourous or authoritative. Actually another reference in the main article, this time from a research paper say: " Boys and girls who experience sex outside of conventional dating relationships often share similar orientations toward their relationship. Results suggest that a more nuanced view is key to understanding adolescent sexual behavior." Such nuance is completely absent from the amateur work of Ms Hal.
I also removed "Given their incomplete emotional and cognitive development, adolescents are also particularly at risk to suffer from emotional distress as a result of their sexual activities." and it was no accident. 1/ the term 'emotional distress' is a legal term, not a medical one, nor a pschy one (just follow the wiki link) 2/ There is absolutely no data to back that claim up, in contrast with the STD and pregnacy claims just before, that are backed-up by irrefutable data from multiples and independent data source, over decades... I have yet do see any serious study, with actual published and reviewed data, to backup up the claim above, especially one that would try to substanciate that teens are 'particularly' at risk, especially when supposedly 'grow-up' are not doing that well once they pass the magic 2.0.
I removed "This is "at least two years earlier than previous generations. This means they are ready for sex earlier physically, but not emotionally or cognitively" because it is contradicted by the data provided by the research article quoted just before. Considering that Generation is about 20 years. that number has been stable for at least 2 generations, as you yourself said earlier in this page, this is not supposed to be the 'history of', so how is something that has not significantly changed in 40-50 yeas has any significance here?
Btw, before we get there, let me warn you that I will object to the legitimacy of articles that give survey's percentage with 3 significatives digits (like "38.8% have given oral sex vs. 38.6% in 1995" These kind of statement are particularly idiotic. If you could chose a random sample (which you can't because of the need for parental consent) and IF you knew what the response bias was precisely enough (which you can't: people lies, and teenager lies even more about sex, one way or another) then you still need a sample of about 1,000,000 person. No serious and reputable author would use such idiotic numbers, and there is certainly no excuse to quote them. Shmget 11:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Shmget, I want to thank you for your work to improve this article. By going back and forth on the article itself I really think we are making progress and the article is improving. This is a much better approach than simply complaining. Also, this talk page is now 100k long and there are over 20 discussion topics. I tried to archive some of it to make it easier to read and faster to load, but my effort was reverted. Would anyone object to archiving some of the older discussion with a link to the archive at the top of the page? -- Illuminato 21:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone! If you haven't already visited the mediation page, here is the proposal that we agreed upon.
1: Revise the article using reputable, neutral sources to make the article NPOV.
2: Broaden the article's coverage to include adolescent homosexuality and autoerotic activity.
3: Remove the POV tag after the revision if everyone agrees that every point of view is represented equally and neutrally.
I'll be hanging around a bit until everyone's happy with the article. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave a message on my talk page.
mcr616
Speak! 23:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Illuminato, would you please stop pilling stat over stat, without any analysis. The latest on Homosexuality is a point in case. Comparing these two numbers is at best misguided, at worse intentionally misleading. Think about if for a second. How exactly does one 'teen' classify himself openly as 'homosexual'. If anything it is amazing that 1 in 5 declare themselves as 'homo-sexual' while not experience any sexuality what-so-ever ? It's like declaring you don't like sweet but a the same time saying that you never tasted sugar in your life. This is idiotic, and this cannot possibly be compared with a pool on the general population. That reasoning above can be reach just using common sens... but still let's see the actual document: As usual, you didn't give a link so that reviewer could actually see the source, so here it is: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1403620&blobtype=pdf Reading the source few thing become apparent: The sexual orientation is 'self-reported', and on the 1880 men that comprise the sample, 0.1% declared themselves 100% homosexual, or a whooping 2(TWO) person. 0.3% declare themselves 'mostly homosexual' that is 5 or 6 persons. 0.8% declare themselves bi-sexual (15 people). The article even say : "We note that the number of people reporting high-risk activity is so small (less than 50 people)..." and here we are talking about 22 to 23 persons! out of 1880!!!! Even is the bias in the sample (the fact that people lies, especially when they are asked if they are gay), the size of the sample would give a margin or error of more than +/-20%... so 80% is in fact 'somewhere between 60 to 100%' The article target the population 15 to 19. The 'other' source used to allegedly compare numbers, concentrate on 18 and less.... Yet the activity between 18 and 19, especially the % of teen taht actually have sex in that year is far from negligible... so that doesn't even remotely compare apple to apple.
The study also says: "The majority of those who had homosexual intercourse define themselves as mostly or 100 percent heterosexual. Some young men who described themselves as mostly or 100 percent homosexual had not had any homosexual intercourse." Which confirm my introductory remark on the oddity of classify oneself sexually while not having been active one way or the other.... Most will answer with the 'default' accepted answer ('hetero', it would be quite odd, especially in the US, due to cultural pressure, to default to homosexual.
Last bu not least, nowhere in the reference document could I find anything that support the claim of '80%' made my illuminato.
So Not only the claim looked suspicious on face value, not only a reasonable person would have notice that such claims would have been extremely complicated to support methodologicaly, a reasonable person would also be warry of comparing a survey with another without carefull analysis, and finally the claim itself was not even derived from the 'reference' used to 'support' it. As a consequence I reverse. Shmget 01:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, wow. Illuminato, please don't just throw stats around and expect them to be accepted. We need to put reputable, factual sources in the article. mcr616 Speak! 14:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
One of the mediation goal is to achive an acceptable NPOV rendition of the article. This can be achive, I believe in two ways. Either we find an agreement so that the entire article is NPOV, or we agree to split the article in three section, A factual section whose content is agreed to be NPOV by all parties, and one or more section to express the contradictory POV.
Based on this history of edit, and the clearly loaded subjet-matter, I seriously doubt that we can agree on a truly monoblock NPOV article.
I personally could live with some POV, so long as it is identifed as such. and I don't mean with a banner, but in the structure of the article. I belive that would allow the article to end-up leaner. Once the 'Moral concervative' POV can be expressed as such, there will not be the need to endless quote and random stats... on both side. The passage about Judith Levine's book could be enriched, to serve as a based on the 'liberal' point of view.
The idea would be for the authors to be 'leniant' on edit in the POV section, using the otehr POV section to balance an argument rather than edit-warring on it.
In the section 'facts', data and trend about sexual activity, pregancy, STD can probably be agree upon, so long as it is not attached to controversial interpretations and opinions, either way. (And I am suceptible to get carried away as much as any body else :-) )
Things that I am sensitive to are: misleading presentation of correlation as causality. Non sequitur (presenting a fact, and following with an opinion, as if that opinion was supported by the fact, when it is not).
Another important things to be consider to reach a consensus, is to try to be mindfull of the source we use. The debate is polarized, including among the 'expert'. Expert are not impartial, and neither are publications or sponsors. For example a paper published by a partisan lobby like the Family Research Council is much more likely to have a POV bias than a professional doctor assocaition like the American Academy of Pediatrics for instance.- Shmget 05:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
About reference, illuminato, could you please precise a bit the source on Dr Sax comment. Since this source is not accessible online, could you precise the page number of the reference book where the quote has been extracted from? I may find a way to get my hand on a copy, but I certainly don't feel like combing through all of it to locate one sentence. Shmget 15:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Has the article been revised to everyone's satisfaction? There hasn't been any activity on here in some time. -- Illuminato 14:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The article say: "Teens rank the media second only to school sex education programs as a leading source of information about sex.[10] "
but also "Most teens (70%) say they have gotten some or a lot of information about sex and sexual relationships from their parents. Other sources of information include friends at 53%, school, also at 53%, TV and movies at 51% and magazines at 34%."
So which is it ?
or
also the intro says: "In addition, 46% report not having used a condom the last time they had sexual intercourse."
but under Contraceptive use "only 67% said that they use protection every time they have sex.", that is 33% that has at lest once not use protection... but 46% have not use codoms the LAST time they had sex... (that is, not to mention the time before, and before etc..) even factoring the 94% prevalence of use... and even making the ridiculous assumption that tehre are abolutely not 'partial users; that still does not add up. -- Shmget 15:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Iamcuriousblue: We went to Mediation on April 21. By early May there was an agreement about what should be done and mediation was closed on July 3rd. In that time you only made 2 edits while others made 120. It is in no way fair for you to continually complain, force the issue to go to mediation, and then sit back and do nothing to improve the article. Then you accuse me of bad faith - I don't get it. Mediation is over, so the tags should go. If you can further improve the article then please do so, but please make positive contributions rather than negative complaints.-- Illuminato 13:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll note, more specifically, that one of the agreements that came out of mediation was that the tags stay until all particles concerned agree that the article is balanced and NPOV to their satifaction. Not to one parties satisfaction, but to all parties involved in the dispute. And there was no deadline set for that – the issues didn't just go away just because the mediation case was closed. Iamcuriousblue 05:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
i agree. unless u r going to do something to fix the problem u shouldnt complain! if u dont agree then put ur own info in there.
"Gay, lesbian and bisexual youth are three times as likely to become pregnant or get a partner pregnant as their straight peers."
I'm not exactly sure I understand. How is that possible? As a bi sexual male myself, up until this point I was unaware that gay men could get each other pregnant and I thought the same went for lesbians. Where is this information from? luke callahan 7 august 2007
So I read most of the talk page and discovered this little war between Iamcuriousblue and Illuminato. Here are my comments:
Iamcuriousblue: I agree with you, the article is pretty heavily biased. But. Just because the truth is on your side doesn't mean you should be rude about it. Illuminato will be more willing to listen to you if you aren't calling him an idiot. Strangerer does this very well; she is polite, but she gets the message across. Follow her example.
"I would like to see more information about adolescent homosexuality, and I would like the opinions/quotefarm to be toned down some."--Strangerer
"Yes, fine, but the article still seems to be based more on "possible negative effects of 'hooking up'" rather than anything else. It could use a broader viewpoint."--Strangerer
You see? And if you read about halfway up, Illuminato thanks her for her work. To sum up: Keep a cool head, don't take arguments too personally, and be civil. Things tend to work out better if you do.
Illuminato: Now don't get me wrong. I think the article is totally one-sided. I think it needs a major overhaul and am doing some myself. But I have to admire how you never seemed to lose your temper on the talk page. You replied calmly to all accusations of bias and politely asked how you could improve it. I probably couldn't have done it myself. Thumbs up.
Now, what to do. No one likes to throw good work away, especially their own. Illuminato is not going to want to delete his own work unless he knows it's the right choice. So telling Illuminato to get rid of large swathes of text (or deleting it yourself) is not going to help; I believe this was a major part of the edit war. Instead, let's improve on what we have. Don't delete, replace and improve.</spiel>
I've gone on a bit of a rampage through the last couple of sections, but I've more or less only replaced stuff with less biased/wordy stuff and added a couple of things. Is this ok, Illuminato? Tell me what you think. (I'll be going back to school in two days, so I may forget about this page after tonight, but I'll try not to.) Johnthescavenger 07:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I just happened to be strolling through wikipedia looking for information on Deborah Yurgelun-Todd, and I came across this article. To my eyes, this is a total NPOV trainwreck. The only cleanup I did was delete a line making a sweeping claim that 'research has linked abstinence education in schools to a "dramatic" decrease in the number of teens having sex', which was supported only by a single citation from "LifeSite", whose "About Us" page states:
LifeSiteNews.com's writers and its founders, have come to understand that respect for life and family are endangered by an international conflict. That conflict is between radically opposed views of the worth and dignity of every human life and of family life and community. It has been caused by secularists attempting to eliminate Christian morality and natural law principles which are seen as the primary obstacles to implementing their new world order.
What a source. Anyways, good luck with the NPOV, this thing is a real mess. SamLL 04:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm adding the disputed section template based on this report by the WaPo. [3] Seventhofnine 11:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Most or all of this looks to be a repeat, but just in case some of it isn't here, here's the content that was originally on Society of the United States: ( Calliopejen1 ( talk) 21:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC))
More than half of sexually active teens have had sexual partners they are not dating.
[1]
[2] Risky sexual behaviors that involve "anything but intercourse," as well as
sexually transmitted diseases, are "rampant" among teenagers.
[3] Lloyd Kolbe, director of the
CDC's Adolescent and School Health program, called the STD problem "a serious epidemic."
[3]
The teenage years are when most in the United States first have intercourse. The current data suggests that by the time a person turns 18, slightly more than half of females and nearly two-thirds of males will have had intercourse. [4] Sixteen percent of adults first had sex before age 15, while 15 percent abstained from sex until at least age 21. [5] Almost 14 percent of teens lose their virginity in June, the most common month. [6] The teen's home, their partner’s home or a friend’s house is the most common place for virginity to be lost, with 68% of teens losing their virginity in one of those three places. [6] "Research shows that the likelihood of a first sexual experience happening will increase with the number of hours a day teens spend unsupervised." [6] There is a "discrepancy when it comes to willingness to perform oral sex [with] 22% of sexually active girls say[ing] their partner never performs oral sex on them, while only 5% of boys say their partner never does." [2]
The American Academy of Pediatrics has identified the sexual behaviors of American adolescents as a major public health problem. [7] The younger an adolescent is at the time of their sexual debut the greater the risk they are of engaging in delinquent acts later. Adolescents who experience late sexual debut are the least likely to participate in delinquency. [8] Adolescents who start having sex at a young age may not be prepared to deal with the emotional, social and behavioral consequences of their actions. [9] Teen pregnancies in the United States decreased 28% between 1990 and 2000 from 117 pregnancies per every 1,000 teens to 84 per 1,000. [10] The US is rated, based on 2002 numbers, 84 out of 170 countries based on teenage fertility rate, according to the World Health Organization. [11]
According to University of California San Francisco pediatrics Professor Bonnie Halpern-Felsher, "We tend to focus on the health consequences of having sex, like pregnancy and STDs, but we also need to talk to them about all the emotional consequences." [12] With their still developing brains, teens do not yet possess the ability to either fathom the physical and emotional consequences of sex or to deal with them once they happen. [3] [13] The "early initiation into sexual behaviors is taking a toll on teens' mental health" with dependency on boyfriends and girlfriends, serious depression around breakups and cheating, and suffering from a lack of goals as possible results. [3] As "teenagers are not mature enough to know all the ramifications of what they're doing," [14] "early sexual activity - whether in or out of a romantic relationship - does far more harm than good." [15]
Might as well rename this article "negative effects of adolescent sexuality in the US"...
I agree with this statement. This article has a lot of editorializing and propaganda surrounding relatively few undisputed facts... I don't know much about Wikipedia but I can tell that this article is below Wikipedia standards. It almost sounds like a Conservapedia propaganda page, to be honest.
M4390116 (
talk) 22:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Take a Closer Look & a Broad Look: This evidence-based article shares contributions from impeccable resources and primarily represents forward thinking, and it could help millions of families who currently do not have access to this information. 1.) This is for adolescents, not adults. Let's not assign adult values to this subject; what is "conservative" for adults may be "safe" for youth. Let each family decide what's best for them. Forward thinkers are not afraid to consider evidence on how media impacts child development, attitudes, and health. Forward thinkers are not afraid to acknowledge new evidence that indicates old assumptions may be wrong. 2.) Isn't our goal equal opportunity for balance, not total balance? There are not two equal sides to every story. There are more studies done on the the negative health outcomes of adolescent sexuality today for many obvious reasons. The positive results are few and haven't garnered a lot of study. If someone knows of a study that enlightens us on the "the healthful sexual attitudes and habits of the developing child," let's include it. Some, but not all, media promote adolescent sexuality for profit; we are bombarded with it. Sex sells. This Wikipedia article can help balance the prevailing, bigger message that is being sold to U S. residents. [And, whether we agree with abstinence education or not, including it does add balance to the subject.] We are not writing poetry or setting policy; we are sharing information. Please help finalize this important article and get it out to parents, teachers and care-givers in order to encourage informed choices and healthier outcomes for youth. SharonThawts ( talk) 20:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
The phrase "intact homes" has been used in scholarly literature going back to at least 1957, and was the phrase used in the SAM, a respected publication. Others who use the phrase include the American Bar Association, and organization that can hardly be considered conservative, an adjective I don't use to describe myself. It is commonly understood to be a home where both parents live as a married couple. I've removed the fix tag, now that I have defined the term. -- Illuminato ( talk) 03:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed references from SADD.org. According to their website, they are "peer leadership organization dedicated to preventing destructive decisions, particularly underage drinking, other drug use, impaired driving, teen violence and teen depression and suicide." As such, op-ed pieces on sexuality that appear on their site strike me as questionable based on WP:V. There are plenty of peer-reviewed, fact-checked articles on this topic, and the article cites them generously. I suggest we stick with such sources to avoid violating WP:NPOV. The same is true of an article cited to Access Hollywood, which doesn't strike me as a reliable source as it relates to this article, so I have also removed quotes and cites from that article. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 19:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
(undenting) And I've restored the tag. My sourcing objection remains. If Dr. Saltz is as prominent and well-regarded as you claim, then surely we can find sources for her ideas and quotes that meet Wikipedia's higher standard for reliability. Access Hollywood may bring people on who make good television, but no one is fact-checking what they say on the program. Quoting Dr. Saltz from Access Hollywood undermines the credibility of what she has to say and brings up the "cherry-picking" criticism that other editors have leveled at you in the past. Find a better source. Thank you for restoring the O'Connell attribution. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 16:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The criteria for an A Class article is:
Aside from being illustrated (now that could raise some problems) how does this article fail that? -- Illuminato ( talk) 04:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
New article out, also deceprating allegations of teen oral sex epidemic. Suggestion: Add as source on teen oral sex section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelica K ( talk • contribs) 23:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a lack of detail about the generally recognized failure of abstinence only education. The whole article appears slanted with conservative sources to make it appear as if adolescent sexuality is somehow unhealthy or abnormal. The entire article needs a serious rewrite in order to give a balance to conflicting views rather than promoting the conservative agenda as the generally accepted view, rather than the fringe view of society. Atom ( talk) 23:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I've deleted exaggerated quotes from journalists as non-reliable sources on the effects of oxytocin. I have no objection to the subject being discussed, but I believe the credibility of the discussion is compromised when we have short quotes about women "swimming in" hormones, or the effects "raging for days and days". This is non-encyclopedic language, which in a scientific article would not stand for a minute. As stated in WP:SOURCES, "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science." To my mind, a scientific discussion of oxytocin's effects should come from such sources. They would never engage in such non-neutral language. I have added some scientific sources to balance this section, it's clear that there's no scientific consensus on oxytocin's effects after sex, so those quoted as drawing behavioral conclusions from it are merely speculating. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 16:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Rather than make multiple small changes at once, I have found it easier to make them all at once. I'll explain them here, as they won't fit in the edit summary. On the suicide sentence, it is in there, the source was incorrect. They are also 8 times, not 6 times more likely. I've corrected it. The link between sexual activity and depression is supported by clinical experience, and a clinical psychologist backs it up. It is supported by the source. I also moved part of the quote dealing with cutting back to the depression section as i think they are related. I kept other parts of it in the "correlation" section where I think it is more appropriate. I also restored a quote from the SADD CEO. Yes, he never uses the word "shocked," but he does say it is "startling," so I don't think this is a stretch. Also, he is a reliable source, so I don't believe he needs to back it up in this document. His word can be trusted. I also restored the "rampant" quote, but the ref was wrong for it, so I fixed it. It comes from an article in which the author spoke to numerous experts, including the director of the CDC's Adolescent and School Health program. The ref says "nearly everyone agrees" on this. -- Illuminato ( talk) 00:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I have reordered the sections, to establish some basic facts and statistics about teenage sexual activity first. I've moved the section on "social aspects" down, because I'm totally unclear on the grouping of topics in that section, and placing it first in the article seems totally out of context -- social aspects of sexual activity are not the most important subject here, in my opinion. Also, the section seems to repeat material that's already contained in other sections. In general, it seems to discuss a trend toward more "casual sex" among teens, but it groups other topics in there as well, and all of these topics are addressed elsewhere. Reducing the redundancy of these topics would improve the article, as it's getting overly long -- now topping 50K of readable prose. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 17:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I've tried several times to edit the section that relates to abstinence-only
The recent compromise language "Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the only approach to take, in accordance with the teachings of many churches that forbid sex outside of marriage." is better than the original language, but it still seems problematic. It is better, because it does not proclaim abstinence-only as a Christian Value which, of course, it is not. I understand and respect that some conservative churches and religions advocate abstinence-only, but it is not universal, and should not be expressed as if it were.
The problematic part of this compromise language, as I see it anyway, is: 1) Churches have no authority to "forbid" anything. They teach doctrine. So, "In accordance with the teachings..." sounds great; "forbid sex outside of marriage" is not great language. 2) "Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the only approach to take..." Might sound better as something like "Some religious organizations teach that sexual abstinence is the moral approach to take" or soemthing like that. After all, Islam and Judaism also teach that to some degree. The language "only approach to take" generalizes too much as not all churches, or even most churches would phrase it that way. 3) The references are not so good either. 127 "The Bible condemns fornication, see Corinthians 6:18-19. " applies only to some Christians, and not all religious groups. First Corinthians also does not condemn fornication, it says "Flee from immorality". Which of course, says either a great deal, or very little about abstinence depending on what you want to believe it means. It certainly does not directly address "abstinence-only". 4) In reference 128 it addresses how the Catholic, Baptist and Pentacostal religions view a number of things. 1) The Cathechism of the Catholic church speaks about many things. I don't think it would be difficult to say that they view Chastity as valuable and teach that abstinence is a moral virtue. They don't forbid or condemn non-chastity however. 2) Baptists have a set of basic beliefes and teachings, related to "abstinence-only" the closest thing they teach is "Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including adultery, homosexuality, and pornography". So, they do not speak of abstinence of chastity directly. A large number of Baptists do not believe that non-abstinence is itself sexually immoral, but more related to more complex situations. 3) The Assemblies of God teaches that Homosexuality is a sin and "He pointed out that the only alternative to heterosexual marriage is celibacy for the kingdom of heaven’s sake (Matthew 19:10–12)" Again, this says nothing about abstinence, and only says that alternative to celbacy or abstinence is heterosexual relations. It does not says those relations need to be only within the confines of marriage.
As the topic of the article is Adolescent Sexuality, and not religious views on sexuality, we should leave much of the religious stuff out.
I suggest: "Abstinence-only sex education teahes teenagers that they should be sexually abstinent until marriage and does not provide information about contraception. In the Kaiser study, 34% of high-school principals said their school's main message was abstinence-only. Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the best approach to take, in accordance with the teachings of many churches." The citations left out, as they don;t apply for the reasons given. Atom ( talk) 21:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-- Jamesad ( talk) 04:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)James
In regards to the question of oral sex being less risky than vaginal sex, please take the time to read at least the results and discussion sections of the source provided. Here's a link to full text.
“ | Independent of gender, adolescents who reported having vaginal sex (with or without also having oral sex) were more likely than adolescents who reported having only oral sex to experience any positive consequence and any negative consequence of having sex (Table 3). | ” |
“ | Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex. | ” |
— Brady and Halpern-Felsher p. 223 |
If the article is going to say that adolescents view oral sex as being less risky, we shouldn't marginalize that view by suggesting its only held by misguided teenagers. - Headwes ( talk) 05:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Brady and Halpern says:
"In comparison with adolescents who engaged in oral sex and/or vaginal sex, adolescents who engaged only in oral sex were less likely to report experiencing a pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection, feeling guilty or used, having their relationship become worse, and getting into trouble with their parents as a result of sex. Adolescents who engaged only in oral sex were also less likely to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of sex. Boys were more likely than girls to report feeling good about themselves, experiencing popularity, and experiencing a pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection as a result of sex, whereas girls were more likely than boys to report feeling bad about themselves and feeling used. "
See where it says "...less likely to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of sex" and "girls were more likely than boys to report feeling bad about themselves and feeling used. "
This doesn't support positive outcome, it says that the results are mixed with positive and negative outcomes.
The statement is made in the article "Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks a claim one study supports" When that study (Brady and Halpern) does not say that. The study may say that adolescents believe it to carry fewer physical and emotional risks, but the study says the results are a mixed bag, with significant negative emotional risks. We can't say that the studysupports their view, because it doesn't. Atom ( talk) 14:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey, look -- I respect your view and intentions. My personal opion sides with you and what the paragraph says. Howerver, remaining true to a citation, rather than slanting it in a different view is important. The integrity of the article (already terribly slanted) and Wikipedia is important.
The Paragraph says:
"While New York Times columnist David Brooks has written, "Reports of an epidemic of teenage oral sex are .. greatly exaggerated"[42], the National Center for Health Statistics has found a quarter of 15-year-old girls have performed it, and more than half of all 17-year-old girls have.[3] About 12% of teens aged 13-16 have had oral sex, and 13% of the same teens have had sexual intercourse.[17] The 2007 Guttmacher Institute study found that slightly more than half (55%) of 15– to 19-year-olds have engaged in heterosexual oral sex, 50% have engaged in vaginal sex and 11% have had anal sex and that the prevalence of both vaginal and oral sex among adolescents has remained steady over the past decade.[5] Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks,[43][44][45] a claim one study supports.[40]"
The Gist of what it implies is researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents.
The citation we are debating, Brady and Halpern Adolescents’ Reported Consequences of Having Oral Sex Versus Vaginal Sex it describes itself as "The study examined whether adolescents’ initial consequences of sexual activity differ according to type of sexual activity and gender."
The conclusion of the study was (an exact quote) "Results of the present study support the conceptualization of adolescent sexual behavior, including engagement in oral sex, as medical and public health issues. Parents and health professionals should talk with adolescents about how they can cope with and reduce the likelihood of experiencing negative physical, social, and emotional consequences of having sex, so that decisions to engage in sex are made thoughtfully and are more likely to lead to positive physical and mental health outcomes. Health professionals and other adults should also talk with adolescents about how decisions to engage in any type of sexual activity may have important consequences. "
I have bolded the portion that stands out for me as relevant to the paragraph in our article being discussed.
The study makes three important implications:
To get back to the point, see what I said above "The Gist of what it implies is researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents." The study does not conclude that. Most people would not read the report and say that the results of the study asserted that.
Getting to the two specific points you made: first: "I think this line makes it pretty clear the study does support the claim: "Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex." Yes, we can say the study supports their view--it comes right out and says it does. Of course its a mixed bag... Did you really expect a study saying there could never be any adverse consequences to oral sex?"
The beginning of the study, introducting the topic does, indeed say:
"Previous research showed that adolescents expect engagement in oral sex to result in fewer negative physical health, social, and emotional consequences than vaginal sex.2,8 The present study is the first to examine whether the initial consequences of sexual activity that adolescents report actually differ according to type of sex (ie, oral versus vaginal). Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex. In comparison with adolescents who had vaginal sex, adolescents who had only oral sex were less likely to report experiencing a pregnancy or STI, feeling guilty or used, having their relationship become worse, and getting into trouble with their parents as a result of having sex."
In the study the paragraph that follows that puts the first paragraph in juxtaposition however: "From the data presented above, one might be tempted to conclude that engagement in oral sex among adolescents is of less concern than engagement in other forms of sexual activity. However, this conclusion might not be warranted. Because we focused on initial consequences of having sex in this young sample of adolescents, adolescents who engaged in only oral sex might have been less sexually experienced and had less opportunity to experience negative consequences. Engagement in oral sex was also not without negative consequences. Approximately one third of adolescents who had only oral sex reported 1 negative consequence of engaging in sexual behavior. Adolescents who had only oral sex were also less likely than their peers with vaginal sex experience to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of having sex. The decision to engage in any type of sexual activity may thus result in negative social and emotional consequences or failure to experience anticipated positive consequences. "
Second: "To be more specific, Table 3 shows that vaginal sex only was >3 times as likely to result in a negative outcome as oral sex only, while vaginal and oral was >4 times as likely to result in a negative outcome."
Table three: "Consequences of Engagement in Sexual Behavior According to Gender and Type of Sex" says that "Vaginal sex only vs Oral sex only" had "Any negative consequence" as 3.75 (as you suggest) and for the same category "Had any positive consequence" as 3.75. Showing Vaginal sex as (in your words) >3 times as likely to result in a positive outcome". The table has a variety of other statistics, and is quite complex. One should probably rely on the implications and conclusion made by the study, rather than generalizing one statistic in a logistic regression model with thirteen dependent variables. One can suggest, for instance that Males are 1.64 times more likely to experience any positive consequences than females are. That by itself isn't entirely meaningful.
Summary:
My point. The study cited has lots of interesting things in it. We should rewrite a portion of some of this article to show the results, particularly " greater proportion of adolescents in our study reported positive consequences of having sex than reported negative consequences." But, one can not in all honesty say that the results or sumamry of the report are "Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex", or more specifically, that the study supports the specific statement in the article "Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks." The study does not address that, it addresses something similar.
Regards to you, Atom ( talk) 18:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This article should focus on how adolescent sexuality in the United States compares to/differs from that in other countries. There already is an article about adolescent sexuality, general material should go there. There is too much fluff (verbose quotations, saying things multiple times, etc.) in this article. It needs editing to take the material common to adolescent sexuality in general out of it, and reduce the duplication. Splitting it like this seems likely to invite more duplication, more rambling. Zodon ( talk) 02:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I have added the verylong template, as the readable prose in this article is now over 62K. I advocate judicious pruning, rather than splits that may create POV forks of the content (as has come up before on this talk page). Other thoughts? I may begin suggesting bold edits to prune repetitive content as I have time. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 02:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I have made a number of edits to get the readable prose down to 60K again. Much of my edits were in removing what I consider to be repetitive, exaggerated and biased quotes. I will leave the verylong template up for now, but if we can agree to these removals, the article is within length at this point and the verylong template can come down.-- Sfmammamia ( talk) 08:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I see that my request above has been ignored and quotes added back in that re-inflate the length of this article to 62K. I will re-edit the article back down to 60K. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 04:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The article focuses heavily on negative aspects, needs more coverage of benefits/positive aspects of adolescent sexuality.
Fine to note the problems and less healthy behaviors, but also should discuss benefits and realistic healthier approaches. Zodon ( talk) 08:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually the benefits are universal to virtually all those who engage in the activity, however the negative effects are particularly prevalent (and thus relevant) amongst the sexually experienced adolescent, also the human body (once sexually mature) does not drastically change thus the timing of first activity does not give or deny any benefits other than the perviously stated...learning about sexuality will occur whether activity starts when in adolescence or 'old' age...it makes no difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LENZ ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
In this paragraph, from the Family section of the article. The second sentence (the quotation) should not be in the article. It is plainly not neutral in POV and oversimplifies a complex subject.
Researchers at the University of Arizona, University of Texas-Austin and Wake Forest University have found that girls who have positive relationships with their fathers wait longer before they have sex. Fathers can explain sex "in a way that mom can't, to let daughter know that for boys teen sex is about conquest, fun and adventure; while for girls, teen sex is about expressing love and affection," according to Dr. Patrick Wanis, a human behavior expert.Ernest Hooper (July 27, 2008). "What only a dad can tell a daughter about sex" (html). MercuryNews.com. Retrieved 2008-08-26.
The relevance of the whole paragraph to the topic of Adolescent sexuality in the US is not adequately established. Rather than wasting space with an unneeded quotation of dubious value (and even more space trying to ballance the POV), at least the quotation should be deleted. The material should be connected to the topic of the article, or the whole paragraph should go.
Why does the paragraph need to be here? What is specific to the US about this? Zodon ( talk) 02:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Abstinence describes a variety of sexual behaviors. It is not just "absence of sexual activity" (which could equally well describe asexuality). It is sexual behavior characterized by the absence of some or all sexual activity. (e.g., certain things are possible, but avoided). A broad variety of behaviors are considered to be abstinence, from refraining from vaginal intercourse to much broader restraint. As noted in the "Social aspects" section, significant percentages of teens regard oral sex or genital touching as being abstinence. Since sexual behavior can include things like talking, looking, hugging, fantasy, dreaming, etc., it may be possible to refrain from all such behavior, but such an extreme level of restraint is probably atypical. Thus abstinence makes logical sense in the sexual behavior section.
Since it is often used to describe those who do not engage in some of the other activities listed in the sexual behaviors section, it makes sense from an organizational standpoint as well. Zodon ( talk) 19:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This edit has multiple issues, doesn't belong in article as it stands.
Illuminato – for shame. This issue was settle last year – see Talk:Adolescent_sexuality_in_the_United_States#Oxytocin_discussion_and_sources. The role of oxytocin really has no relevance this article. The idea that bonding patterns facilitated by oxytocin has some bearing on the ethics of casual sex, while being a favorite canard of abstinence education advocates, is totally without scientific merit. I am hereby demanding that you stop trying to add this nonsense and am warning you that I will continue to revert it and take this to moderation if need be. Peter G Werner ( talk) 03:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I have removed, once again, the exaggerated statements that were discussed over a year ago. There is no consensus for them. I have made an edit to indicate that there is no scientific consensus on the behaviorial effects of oxytocin on relationships. Once psychologist or the other theorizing on this does not rise to the level of reliability need to state this as if it was undisputed in the scientific community. Illuminato, I suggest you read the main article on oxytocin and refrain from making repeated insertions of disputed statements, as that could be viewed as tendentious editing -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 19:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
This article has been extremely long for some time, having now reached almost 70k of readable prose. I have already agreed above that some editing could and should probably be done to the article. However, I don't feel this is an entirely workable solution. For one thing, I doubt that removing the "so-and-so says" will bring it down to an acceptable level. Secondly, while some information is not-US specific and could be moved to the main article, I think there are vast differences between adolescent sexuality in the United States and in, say, Ghana.
Both of these are good strategies to take in reducing the readable prose. However, as time goes on the article is sure to grow in content. A more long term solution and different is thus needed. I am again proposing a split in the article, and I hope this one will be found more acceptable. I propose that sections 4 and 5, and possibly 6, be removed and placed in a new article, Effects of sex on American Adolescents. In their place will be left a link to the main article and a summary, including any US specific info in them, (e.g. "Each year, between 8 and 10 million American teens contract a sexually transmitted disease.")
I had considered a general Effects of Adolescent Sexuality, however I don't think that would be a good idea. For one reason, the cultural milieu in which the sex acts take place are diverse enough across the world that I don't think generalizations could really be made beyond something like pregnancy. Two 17 year old friends having casual sex in the US is something very different than a 15 year old married couple in Africa, or a 14 and 28 year old married couple in India, having sex. Besides, there is enough research on American kids alone to fill a library. We can certainly devote a Wikipedia article to it.
This should bring the readable prose down by about 15k-20k. After that, perhaps we could go for an article entitled Sexual behavior of American adolescents with an expanded section 1. What say you all? -- Illuminato ( talk) 15:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Considering how severely imbalanced this article is toward views that conflict with this study, the inclusion of this study is strongly warranted as step toward restoring some balance. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 01:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Might as well rename this article "negative effects of adolescent sexuality in the US"...
I agree with this statement. This article has a lot of editorializing and propaganda surrounding relatively few undisputed facts... I don't know much about Wikipedia but I can tell that this article is below Wikipedia standards. It almost sounds like a Conservapedia propaganda page, to be honest.
M4390116 (
talk) 22:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Take a Closer Look & a Broad Look: This evidence-based article shares contributions from impeccable resources and primarily represents forward thinking, and it could help millions of families who currently do not have access to this information. 1.) This is for adolescents, not adults. Let's not assign adult values to this subject; what is "conservative" for adults may be "safe" for youth. Let each family decide what's best for them. Forward thinkers are not afraid to consider evidence on how media impacts child development, attitudes, and health. Forward thinkers are not afraid to acknowledge new evidence that indicates old assumptions may be wrong. 2.) Isn't our goal equal opportunity for balance, not total balance? There are not two equal sides to every story. There are more studies done on the the negative health outcomes of adolescent sexuality today for many obvious reasons. The positive results are few and haven't garnered a lot of study. If someone knows of a study that enlightens us on the "the healthful sexual attitudes and habits of the developing child," let's include it. Some, but not all, media promote adolescent sexuality for profit; we are bombarded with it. Sex sells. This Wikipedia article can help balance the prevailing, bigger message that is being sold to U S. residents. [And, whether we agree with abstinence education or not, including it does add balance to the subject.] We are not writing poetry or setting policy; we are sharing information. Please help finalize this important article and get it out to parents, teachers and care-givers in order to encourage informed choices and healthier outcomes for youth. SharonThawts ( talk) 20:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
The phrase "intact homes" has been used in scholarly literature going back to at least 1957, and was the phrase used in the SAM, a respected publication. Others who use the phrase include the American Bar Association, and organization that can hardly be considered conservative, an adjective I don't use to describe myself. It is commonly understood to be a home where both parents live as a married couple. I've removed the fix tag, now that I have defined the term. -- Illuminato ( talk) 03:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed references from SADD.org. According to their website, they are "peer leadership organization dedicated to preventing destructive decisions, particularly underage drinking, other drug use, impaired driving, teen violence and teen depression and suicide." As such, op-ed pieces on sexuality that appear on their site strike me as questionable based on WP:V. There are plenty of peer-reviewed, fact-checked articles on this topic, and the article cites them generously. I suggest we stick with such sources to avoid violating WP:NPOV. The same is true of an article cited to Access Hollywood, which doesn't strike me as a reliable source as it relates to this article, so I have also removed quotes and cites from that article. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 19:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
(undenting) And I've restored the tag. My sourcing objection remains. If Dr. Saltz is as prominent and well-regarded as you claim, then surely we can find sources for her ideas and quotes that meet Wikipedia's higher standard for reliability. Access Hollywood may bring people on who make good television, but no one is fact-checking what they say on the program. Quoting Dr. Saltz from Access Hollywood undermines the credibility of what she has to say and brings up the "cherry-picking" criticism that other editors have leveled at you in the past. Find a better source. Thank you for restoring the O'Connell attribution. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 16:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The criteria for an A Class article is:
Aside from being illustrated (now that could raise some problems) how does this article fail that? -- Illuminato ( talk) 04:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
New article out, also deceprating allegations of teen oral sex epidemic. Suggestion: Add as source on teen oral sex section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelica K ( talk • contribs) 23:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a lack of detail about the generally recognized failure of abstinence only education. The whole article appears slanted with conservative sources to make it appear as if adolescent sexuality is somehow unhealthy or abnormal. The entire article needs a serious rewrite in order to give a balance to conflicting views rather than promoting the conservative agenda as the generally accepted view, rather than the fringe view of society. Atom ( talk) 23:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I've deleted exaggerated quotes from journalists as non-reliable sources on the effects of oxytocin. I have no objection to the subject being discussed, but I believe the credibility of the discussion is compromised when we have short quotes about women "swimming in" hormones, or the effects "raging for days and days". This is non-encyclopedic language, which in a scientific article would not stand for a minute. As stated in WP:SOURCES, "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science." To my mind, a scientific discussion of oxytocin's effects should come from such sources. They would never engage in such non-neutral language. I have added some scientific sources to balance this section, it's clear that there's no scientific consensus on oxytocin's effects after sex, so those quoted as drawing behavioral conclusions from it are merely speculating. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 16:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Rather than make multiple small changes at once, I have found it easier to make them all at once. I'll explain them here, as they won't fit in the edit summary. On the suicide sentence, it is in there, the source was incorrect. They are also 8 times, not 6 times more likely. I've corrected it. The link between sexual activity and depression is supported by clinical experience, and a clinical psychologist backs it up. It is supported by the source. I also moved part of the quote dealing with cutting back to the depression section as i think they are related. I kept other parts of it in the "correlation" section where I think it is more appropriate. I also restored a quote from the SADD CEO. Yes, he never uses the word "shocked," but he does say it is "startling," so I don't think this is a stretch. Also, he is a reliable source, so I don't believe he needs to back it up in this document. His word can be trusted. I also restored the "rampant" quote, but the ref was wrong for it, so I fixed it. It comes from an article in which the author spoke to numerous experts, including the director of the CDC's Adolescent and School Health program. The ref says "nearly everyone agrees" on this. -- Illuminato ( talk) 00:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I have reordered the sections, to establish some basic facts and statistics about teenage sexual activity first. I've moved the section on "social aspects" down, because I'm totally unclear on the grouping of topics in that section, and placing it first in the article seems totally out of context -- social aspects of sexual activity are not the most important subject here, in my opinion. Also, the section seems to repeat material that's already contained in other sections. In general, it seems to discuss a trend toward more "casual sex" among teens, but it groups other topics in there as well, and all of these topics are addressed elsewhere. Reducing the redundancy of these topics would improve the article, as it's getting overly long -- now topping 50K of readable prose. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 17:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I've tried several times to edit the section that relates to abstinence-only
The recent compromise language "Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the only approach to take, in accordance with the teachings of many churches that forbid sex outside of marriage." is better than the original language, but it still seems problematic. It is better, because it does not proclaim abstinence-only as a Christian Value which, of course, it is not. I understand and respect that some conservative churches and religions advocate abstinence-only, but it is not universal, and should not be expressed as if it were.
The problematic part of this compromise language, as I see it anyway, is: 1) Churches have no authority to "forbid" anything. They teach doctrine. So, "In accordance with the teachings..." sounds great; "forbid sex outside of marriage" is not great language. 2) "Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the only approach to take..." Might sound better as something like "Some religious organizations teach that sexual abstinence is the moral approach to take" or soemthing like that. After all, Islam and Judaism also teach that to some degree. The language "only approach to take" generalizes too much as not all churches, or even most churches would phrase it that way. 3) The references are not so good either. 127 "The Bible condemns fornication, see Corinthians 6:18-19. " applies only to some Christians, and not all religious groups. First Corinthians also does not condemn fornication, it says "Flee from immorality". Which of course, says either a great deal, or very little about abstinence depending on what you want to believe it means. It certainly does not directly address "abstinence-only". 4) In reference 128 it addresses how the Catholic, Baptist and Pentacostal religions view a number of things. 1) The Cathechism of the Catholic church speaks about many things. I don't think it would be difficult to say that they view Chastity as valuable and teach that abstinence is a moral virtue. They don't forbid or condemn non-chastity however. 2) Baptists have a set of basic beliefes and teachings, related to "abstinence-only" the closest thing they teach is "Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including adultery, homosexuality, and pornography". So, they do not speak of abstinence of chastity directly. A large number of Baptists do not believe that non-abstinence is itself sexually immoral, but more related to more complex situations. 3) The Assemblies of God teaches that Homosexuality is a sin and "He pointed out that the only alternative to heterosexual marriage is celibacy for the kingdom of heaven’s sake (Matthew 19:10–12)" Again, this says nothing about abstinence, and only says that alternative to celbacy or abstinence is heterosexual relations. It does not says those relations need to be only within the confines of marriage.
As the topic of the article is Adolescent Sexuality, and not religious views on sexuality, we should leave much of the religious stuff out.
I suggest: "Abstinence-only sex education teahes teenagers that they should be sexually abstinent until marriage and does not provide information about contraception. In the Kaiser study, 34% of high-school principals said their school's main message was abstinence-only. Some Christian organizations have propagated the idea that sexual abstinence is the best approach to take, in accordance with the teachings of many churches." The citations left out, as they don;t apply for the reasons given. Atom ( talk) 21:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-- Jamesad ( talk) 04:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)James
In regards to the question of oral sex being less risky than vaginal sex, please take the time to read at least the results and discussion sections of the source provided. Here's a link to full text.
“ | Independent of gender, adolescents who reported having vaginal sex (with or without also having oral sex) were more likely than adolescents who reported having only oral sex to experience any positive consequence and any negative consequence of having sex (Table 3). | ” |
“ | Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex. | ” |
— Brady and Halpern-Felsher p. 223 |
If the article is going to say that adolescents view oral sex as being less risky, we shouldn't marginalize that view by suggesting its only held by misguided teenagers. - Headwes ( talk) 05:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Brady and Halpern says:
"In comparison with adolescents who engaged in oral sex and/or vaginal sex, adolescents who engaged only in oral sex were less likely to report experiencing a pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection, feeling guilty or used, having their relationship become worse, and getting into trouble with their parents as a result of sex. Adolescents who engaged only in oral sex were also less likely to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of sex. Boys were more likely than girls to report feeling good about themselves, experiencing popularity, and experiencing a pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection as a result of sex, whereas girls were more likely than boys to report feeling bad about themselves and feeling used. "
See where it says "...less likely to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of sex" and "girls were more likely than boys to report feeling bad about themselves and feeling used. "
This doesn't support positive outcome, it says that the results are mixed with positive and negative outcomes.
The statement is made in the article "Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks a claim one study supports" When that study (Brady and Halpern) does not say that. The study may say that adolescents believe it to carry fewer physical and emotional risks, but the study says the results are a mixed bag, with significant negative emotional risks. We can't say that the studysupports their view, because it doesn't. Atom ( talk) 14:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey, look -- I respect your view and intentions. My personal opion sides with you and what the paragraph says. Howerver, remaining true to a citation, rather than slanting it in a different view is important. The integrity of the article (already terribly slanted) and Wikipedia is important.
The Paragraph says:
"While New York Times columnist David Brooks has written, "Reports of an epidemic of teenage oral sex are .. greatly exaggerated"[42], the National Center for Health Statistics has found a quarter of 15-year-old girls have performed it, and more than half of all 17-year-old girls have.[3] About 12% of teens aged 13-16 have had oral sex, and 13% of the same teens have had sexual intercourse.[17] The 2007 Guttmacher Institute study found that slightly more than half (55%) of 15– to 19-year-olds have engaged in heterosexual oral sex, 50% have engaged in vaginal sex and 11% have had anal sex and that the prevalence of both vaginal and oral sex among adolescents has remained steady over the past decade.[5] Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks,[43][44][45] a claim one study supports.[40]"
The Gist of what it implies is researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents.
The citation we are debating, Brady and Halpern Adolescents’ Reported Consequences of Having Oral Sex Versus Vaginal Sex it describes itself as "The study examined whether adolescents’ initial consequences of sexual activity differ according to type of sexual activity and gender."
The conclusion of the study was (an exact quote) "Results of the present study support the conceptualization of adolescent sexual behavior, including engagement in oral sex, as medical and public health issues. Parents and health professionals should talk with adolescents about how they can cope with and reduce the likelihood of experiencing negative physical, social, and emotional consequences of having sex, so that decisions to engage in sex are made thoughtfully and are more likely to lead to positive physical and mental health outcomes. Health professionals and other adults should also talk with adolescents about how decisions to engage in any type of sexual activity may have important consequences. "
I have bolded the portion that stands out for me as relevant to the paragraph in our article being discussed.
The study makes three important implications:
To get back to the point, see what I said above "The Gist of what it implies is researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents." The study does not conclude that. Most people would not read the report and say that the results of the study asserted that.
Getting to the two specific points you made: first: "I think this line makes it pretty clear the study does support the claim: "Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex." Yes, we can say the study supports their view--it comes right out and says it does. Of course its a mixed bag... Did you really expect a study saying there could never be any adverse consequences to oral sex?"
The beginning of the study, introducting the topic does, indeed say:
"Previous research showed that adolescents expect engagement in oral sex to result in fewer negative physical health, social, and emotional consequences than vaginal sex.2,8 The present study is the first to examine whether the initial consequences of sexual activity that adolescents report actually differ according to type of sex (ie, oral versus vaginal). Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex. In comparison with adolescents who had vaginal sex, adolescents who had only oral sex were less likely to report experiencing a pregnancy or STI, feeling guilty or used, having their relationship become worse, and getting into trouble with their parents as a result of having sex."
In the study the paragraph that follows that puts the first paragraph in juxtaposition however: "From the data presented above, one might be tempted to conclude that engagement in oral sex among adolescents is of less concern than engagement in other forms of sexual activity. However, this conclusion might not be warranted. Because we focused on initial consequences of having sex in this young sample of adolescents, adolescents who engaged in only oral sex might have been less sexually experienced and had less opportunity to experience negative consequences. Engagement in oral sex was also not without negative consequences. Approximately one third of adolescents who had only oral sex reported 1 negative consequence of engaging in sexual behavior. Adolescents who had only oral sex were also less likely than their peers with vaginal sex experience to report experiencing pleasure, feeling good about themselves, and having their relationship become better as a result of having sex. The decision to engage in any type of sexual activity may thus result in negative social and emotional consequences or failure to experience anticipated positive consequences. "
Second: "To be more specific, Table 3 shows that vaginal sex only was >3 times as likely to result in a negative outcome as oral sex only, while vaginal and oral was >4 times as likely to result in a negative outcome."
Table three: "Consequences of Engagement in Sexual Behavior According to Gender and Type of Sex" says that "Vaginal sex only vs Oral sex only" had "Any negative consequence" as 3.75 (as you suggest) and for the same category "Had any positive consequence" as 3.75. Showing Vaginal sex as (in your words) >3 times as likely to result in a positive outcome". The table has a variety of other statistics, and is quite complex. One should probably rely on the implications and conclusion made by the study, rather than generalizing one statistic in a logistic regression model with thirteen dependent variables. One can suggest, for instance that Males are 1.64 times more likely to experience any positive consequences than females are. That by itself isn't entirely meaningful.
Summary:
My point. The study cited has lots of interesting things in it. We should rewrite a portion of some of this article to show the results, particularly " greater proportion of adolescents in our study reported positive consequences of having sex than reported negative consequences." But, one can not in all honesty say that the results or sumamry of the report are "Results generally support adolescents’ expectations that oral sex is associated with fewer negative consequences than vaginal sex", or more specifically, that the study supports the specific statement in the article "Researchers believe that oral sex may have become more popular than intercourse for adolescents because teens believe it carries fewer physical and emotional risks." The study does not address that, it addresses something similar.
Regards to you, Atom ( talk) 18:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This article should focus on how adolescent sexuality in the United States compares to/differs from that in other countries. There already is an article about adolescent sexuality, general material should go there. There is too much fluff (verbose quotations, saying things multiple times, etc.) in this article. It needs editing to take the material common to adolescent sexuality in general out of it, and reduce the duplication. Splitting it like this seems likely to invite more duplication, more rambling. Zodon ( talk) 02:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I have added the verylong template, as the readable prose in this article is now over 62K. I advocate judicious pruning, rather than splits that may create POV forks of the content (as has come up before on this talk page). Other thoughts? I may begin suggesting bold edits to prune repetitive content as I have time. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 02:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I have made a number of edits to get the readable prose down to 60K again. Much of my edits were in removing what I consider to be repetitive, exaggerated and biased quotes. I will leave the verylong template up for now, but if we can agree to these removals, the article is within length at this point and the verylong template can come down.-- Sfmammamia ( talk) 08:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I see that my request above has been ignored and quotes added back in that re-inflate the length of this article to 62K. I will re-edit the article back down to 60K. -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 04:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The article focuses heavily on negative aspects, needs more coverage of benefits/positive aspects of adolescent sexuality.
Fine to note the problems and less healthy behaviors, but also should discuss benefits and realistic healthier approaches. Zodon ( talk) 08:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually the benefits are universal to virtually all those who engage in the activity, however the negative effects are particularly prevalent (and thus relevant) amongst the sexually experienced adolescent, also the human body (once sexually mature) does not drastically change thus the timing of first activity does not give or deny any benefits other than the perviously stated...learning about sexuality will occur whether activity starts when in adolescence or 'old' age...it makes no difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LENZ ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
In this paragraph, from the Family section of the article. The second sentence (the quotation) should not be in the article. It is plainly not neutral in POV and oversimplifies a complex subject.
Researchers at the University of Arizona, University of Texas-Austin and Wake Forest University have found that girls who have positive relationships with their fathers wait longer before they have sex. Fathers can explain sex "in a way that mom can't, to let daughter know that for boys teen sex is about conquest, fun and adventure; while for girls, teen sex is about expressing love and affection," according to Dr. Patrick Wanis, a human behavior expert.Ernest Hooper (July 27, 2008). "What only a dad can tell a daughter about sex" (html). MercuryNews.com. Retrieved 2008-08-26.
The relevance of the whole paragraph to the topic of Adolescent sexuality in the US is not adequately established. Rather than wasting space with an unneeded quotation of dubious value (and even more space trying to ballance the POV), at least the quotation should be deleted. The material should be connected to the topic of the article, or the whole paragraph should go.
Why does the paragraph need to be here? What is specific to the US about this? Zodon ( talk) 02:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Abstinence describes a variety of sexual behaviors. It is not just "absence of sexual activity" (which could equally well describe asexuality). It is sexual behavior characterized by the absence of some or all sexual activity. (e.g., certain things are possible, but avoided). A broad variety of behaviors are considered to be abstinence, from refraining from vaginal intercourse to much broader restraint. As noted in the "Social aspects" section, significant percentages of teens regard oral sex or genital touching as being abstinence. Since sexual behavior can include things like talking, looking, hugging, fantasy, dreaming, etc., it may be possible to refrain from all such behavior, but such an extreme level of restraint is probably atypical. Thus abstinence makes logical sense in the sexual behavior section.
Since it is often used to describe those who do not engage in some of the other activities listed in the sexual behaviors section, it makes sense from an organizational standpoint as well. Zodon ( talk) 19:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This edit has multiple issues, doesn't belong in article as it stands.
Illuminato – for shame. This issue was settle last year – see Talk:Adolescent_sexuality_in_the_United_States#Oxytocin_discussion_and_sources. The role of oxytocin really has no relevance this article. The idea that bonding patterns facilitated by oxytocin has some bearing on the ethics of casual sex, while being a favorite canard of abstinence education advocates, is totally without scientific merit. I am hereby demanding that you stop trying to add this nonsense and am warning you that I will continue to revert it and take this to moderation if need be. Peter G Werner ( talk) 03:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I have removed, once again, the exaggerated statements that were discussed over a year ago. There is no consensus for them. I have made an edit to indicate that there is no scientific consensus on the behaviorial effects of oxytocin on relationships. Once psychologist or the other theorizing on this does not rise to the level of reliability need to state this as if it was undisputed in the scientific community. Illuminato, I suggest you read the main article on oxytocin and refrain from making repeated insertions of disputed statements, as that could be viewed as tendentious editing -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 19:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
This article has been extremely long for some time, having now reached almost 70k of readable prose. I have already agreed above that some editing could and should probably be done to the article. However, I don't feel this is an entirely workable solution. For one thing, I doubt that removing the "so-and-so says" will bring it down to an acceptable level. Secondly, while some information is not-US specific and could be moved to the main article, I think there are vast differences between adolescent sexuality in the United States and in, say, Ghana.
Both of these are good strategies to take in reducing the readable prose. However, as time goes on the article is sure to grow in content. A more long term solution and different is thus needed. I am again proposing a split in the article, and I hope this one will be found more acceptable. I propose that sections 4 and 5, and possibly 6, be removed and placed in a new article, Effects of sex on American Adolescents. In their place will be left a link to the main article and a summary, including any US specific info in them, (e.g. "Each year, between 8 and 10 million American teens contract a sexually transmitted disease.")
I had considered a general Effects of Adolescent Sexuality, however I don't think that would be a good idea. For one reason, the cultural milieu in which the sex acts take place are diverse enough across the world that I don't think generalizations could really be made beyond something like pregnancy. Two 17 year old friends having casual sex in the US is something very different than a 15 year old married couple in Africa, or a 14 and 28 year old married couple in India, having sex. Besides, there is enough research on American kids alone to fill a library. We can certainly devote a Wikipedia article to it.
This should bring the readable prose down by about 15k-20k. After that, perhaps we could go for an article entitled Sexual behavior of American adolescents with an expanded section 1. What say you all? -- Illuminato ( talk) 15:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Considering how severely imbalanced this article is toward views that conflict with this study, the inclusion of this study is strongly warranted as step toward restoring some balance. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 01:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
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