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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I think that this list should be re-named into list of cults and new religious movements researchers. Some people who are listed here, such as Eileen Barker, generally avoid the term cult. Others find it a appropriate term as long as it properly and neutrally defined. Andries 06:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Rick Ross does not fit the stated criteria. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Yours, Smeelgova 20:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC).
No one is arguing that he is not a consultant, or that he paricipated as an exper witness. But that does not make him a researcher, to warrant a listing alongside scholars. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that we are mixing apples with oranges by adding government officials to this list. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Some of thes politicians are not "researchers", they are "politicians" with an interest in the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The current categorization is not 100% accurate. Some of the people in the "Theology" section are Sociologists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
I am not so sure the "Authors" section belongs in this article. Some of them are not "reseachers" at all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Jean-Pierre Jougla is a "solicitor". "Lawyers" should be in the subject heading. Tanaats 16:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I will be moving the section "Politicians" to the article called Cults and governments ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
For anyone familiar with the research literature on the subject, it is obvious what the order of section entries should be if ordered by importance (it is not POV). Alphabetical order roughly reverses the order of importance, and is not at all appropriate at present. The "Authors" section contains people who probably shouldn't be on the page (unless under a final section entitled "Other investigators"), and politicians are similarly not in the appropriate category as "researchers". They should either be moved as proposed above, or likewise be put in a section at the end for "Other investigators". Order of importance is the principle behind order by most common first in disambiguation_pages. - Do c t orW 05:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be of great value to the reader, and would even help us editors evaluate the entries on the list, if some or all of the research authored by each of those on this list were cited in footnotes. - Do c t orW 05:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
DrW, you've changed the criteria for inclusion stated at the very beginning of the article. Changing the criteria by which it is decided what should or should not be placed in the article is a big change. I've put it back the way it was until it can be discussed. Tanaats 05:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
This section should list authors only. Not every person that was interviewed or ever spoke on the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 11:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This is becoming one of these, Smeelgova. A person that published one article in an obscure magazine, or is self-published ins not an "author". Please... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 11:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
As proposed, this section needs to be moved to his own article or merged with Cults and governments. It is not fitting an article on NRM researchers. Alternatively, a list of politicians opposing cults and NRMs could be compiled and placed on its own article, as that seems to be who these people are, really. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 11:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I provided a very substantial argument above, which you ignored. Provide a counter-argument rather than changing subjects. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I will repeat my argument again. Would you add a politician to "List of Cancer researchers", just because a politician supported a bill or studied, and/or commented on the issue? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Same concern as expressed above. We should not mix oranges and apples, IMO. Having a list in which prominent scholars are listed alongside a journalist that published one article on the subject, may be violating NPOV undue weight, as well as original research, and verifiability (e. g. asserting that the journalist is a "new religious movement researcher" when no reputable source describes the journalist as such.) A solution could be found by providing sources in which these persons are described as such, rather than providing a source that an editor believes make him/her a "new religious movement researcher." ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I used the description of these people as stated in their biographical articles. They are anti-cult advocates, are they not? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
"Author" is too generic of a term. We need sub sections to categorize these persons properly and not mix apples and oranges. If "anti-cult advocate" does not work for you, please propose an alternative distinction. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The classification is still not right. Most, if not all, the people listed on the academic sections have published many books on the subject. We need a way to differentiate between them and other authors that are not publishing as academics. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
These comments are for everyone, but to User:Tanaats, I wasn't too offended, it seemed like you simply overreacted a bit. Others here have been far more rude (even since then), to the point of being offensive and insulting. Btw, I didn't say you should pull my edit summary out and post it here on the talk page, merely that you might respond to my reasoning.
It seems to me there are 3 issues in the introduction that I was dealing with:
1. Use of the word "and" in "new religious movements and cults". This "and" can be read - by those who would draw a distinction between "new religious movements" and "cults" - as a person qualifying for the list if they have conducted research on groups in both categories. Similarly, the statement "Researchers of new religious movements and cults made sure to buy gifts on Valentine's Day for their wives and girlfriends" could be taken to mean that some cult researcher might buy a gift for his wife but forget to buy one for his girlfriend too (or vice-versa). A better choice than "and" (or the slash that I used) is "or", which can be read either as following or not following a distinction between "new religious movement" and "cult".
2. Enumerating the categories in the definition: This bad idea has already been taken care of. The criterion is researcher; whether someone is an "author" or not, for example, has no bearing.
3. The third issue is the most important, and I have mentioned it twice already, but it seems as though no one has paid attention. A researcher conducts research. This does not include someone repeating what they heard from someone else, a highly biased "study" that does not follow standard procedures either by a cult member or a detractor, or other expressions of opinion that do not follow standard research methods. The only way to exclude such "study" or "investigation" which is not research is to include the criteria of peer review. Anyone who would seek to pack this list with people they like might argue that rather than each research profession deciding who to accept based on peer review, that he himself (the Wikipedia editor in question) can evaluate who has done work that meets the standards that could be called "research" rather than some less rigorous investigation. Besides the gargantuan hubris involved in such a proposal, it would never work because there would be varying opinions; it is a slippery slope from which there is no recovery. The only criterion that could work is the standard of peer review. That is the standard by which someone is judged within each field. Wikipedia editors cannot substitute their own arbitrary standards (which would be unworkable anyway). Let's not make Wikipedia into a farce; it is an encyclopedia. - Do c t orW 19:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
<<< There is no need to have multiple sources per person. One that establishes criteria for inclusion, is sufficient. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
We need to define criteria very tightly, otherwise there will be disputes about many of the people listed. In my experience with lists, which is quite substantial, unless there is a very unambiguous criteria, these lists become POV magnets to either "promote" a person (is the list has positive connotations) or "demote" a person (if the list carry negative connotations). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
(I would appreciate not to be told to "STOP with your sarcasm" in edit summaries. That is inappropriate and a violation of use of summaries. If you are upset by editing these articles, take some time to cool off) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe some clarification is due. When we say "Sure" we mean just that: I could have said "Yes". I do not mean "sure" as said with sarcasm like "sure... right..." ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
So far there is only one proposal on the table for specific criteria for "researchers", which is mine above ( "Researchers": published, peer-review). May I suggest that other proposals for specific criteria be made, and discussion undertaken before more names are added to the list that would obviously be excluded under one of the proposals? - Do c t orW 22:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of discussion here, but no one else made any concrete proposal for criteria for researchers. If mine is the only concrete proposal, it should be followed unless and until overturned by another one. An additional page can be created for authors on cults who are not researchers. (We probably need such a page no matter what other decisions are made; only the most ludicrous and tortured definition would include every author as a "researcher".) - Do c t orW 18:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Responses to Jossi's proposal for criteria for "researcher":
On point one: Master's programs are not designed to teach people how to do research. In order to learn how to do research properly, one needs more than two years of coursework in content areas. Research in the social sciences is very hard to do without commiting fatal errors even for those with Ph.D.s! A Ph.D. level degree has to be the qualification.
On point two: Are you suggesting we abandon the requirement of peer review? As I mentioned before, this may be a slippery slope from which there is no recovery.
On point three: I don't think this is necessary. If a well-qualified, academic researcher does a single, high-quality research study of a cult/NRM and has it published in a peer-reviewed journal, that by itself might not make him notable, but he should certainly be included even if he is not notable for anything else. - Do c t orW 19:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Are two very distinct things. Suggest keeping only Psychotherapists and removing all others that are not scholars. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not appreciate reversions (sometimes repeated) of my annotated edits with no discussion. I have given good reasons here and/or in my edit summaries. Some changes are obviously needed and would have required no reason given by me, but these also have been reverted with no comment. Please be more civil. - Do c t orW 13:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
You have been highly uncivil here, as I have documented above. I am not angry. I am simply trying to point out to you exactly where your behavior has been lacking in common courtesy. After your using an offensive term and my citing another editor's comparison of it to another offensive term, perhaps you are the one who should apologize for actually using an offensive term (as opposed to my citing a comparison to one).
Btw, I meant to leave (while protesting) your version of the two edits I characterized above as "still on the table", and only remove the weasel words, but I discovered afterward that I had reverted all 3 minor items, and decided to comment here first. I'm guessing you'll just revert me anyway, as that has been your pattern. - Do c t orW 14:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not add someone to this list unless there is a brief description on his/her page of the empirical study(ies) on cults or new religious movements conducted by that researcher. There is also a page for authors ( List of authors opposing cults) for those who write about cults or new religious movements who have not conducted empirical research studies. - Do c t orW 17:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I moved the lawyers to the "authors" page. (See comment immediately above.) - Do c t orW 17:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I think that this list should be re-named into list of cults and new religious movements researchers. Some people who are listed here, such as Eileen Barker, generally avoid the term cult. Others find it a appropriate term as long as it properly and neutrally defined. Andries 06:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Rick Ross does not fit the stated criteria. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Yours, Smeelgova 20:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC).
No one is arguing that he is not a consultant, or that he paricipated as an exper witness. But that does not make him a researcher, to warrant a listing alongside scholars. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that we are mixing apples with oranges by adding government officials to this list. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Some of thes politicians are not "researchers", they are "politicians" with an interest in the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The current categorization is not 100% accurate. Some of the people in the "Theology" section are Sociologists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
I am not so sure the "Authors" section belongs in this article. Some of them are not "reseachers" at all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Jean-Pierre Jougla is a "solicitor". "Lawyers" should be in the subject heading. Tanaats 16:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I will be moving the section "Politicians" to the article called Cults and governments ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
For anyone familiar with the research literature on the subject, it is obvious what the order of section entries should be if ordered by importance (it is not POV). Alphabetical order roughly reverses the order of importance, and is not at all appropriate at present. The "Authors" section contains people who probably shouldn't be on the page (unless under a final section entitled "Other investigators"), and politicians are similarly not in the appropriate category as "researchers". They should either be moved as proposed above, or likewise be put in a section at the end for "Other investigators". Order of importance is the principle behind order by most common first in disambiguation_pages. - Do c t orW 05:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be of great value to the reader, and would even help us editors evaluate the entries on the list, if some or all of the research authored by each of those on this list were cited in footnotes. - Do c t orW 05:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
DrW, you've changed the criteria for inclusion stated at the very beginning of the article. Changing the criteria by which it is decided what should or should not be placed in the article is a big change. I've put it back the way it was until it can be discussed. Tanaats 05:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
This section should list authors only. Not every person that was interviewed or ever spoke on the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 11:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This is becoming one of these, Smeelgova. A person that published one article in an obscure magazine, or is self-published ins not an "author". Please... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 11:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
As proposed, this section needs to be moved to his own article or merged with Cults and governments. It is not fitting an article on NRM researchers. Alternatively, a list of politicians opposing cults and NRMs could be compiled and placed on its own article, as that seems to be who these people are, really. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 11:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I provided a very substantial argument above, which you ignored. Provide a counter-argument rather than changing subjects. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I will repeat my argument again. Would you add a politician to "List of Cancer researchers", just because a politician supported a bill or studied, and/or commented on the issue? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Same concern as expressed above. We should not mix oranges and apples, IMO. Having a list in which prominent scholars are listed alongside a journalist that published one article on the subject, may be violating NPOV undue weight, as well as original research, and verifiability (e. g. asserting that the journalist is a "new religious movement researcher" when no reputable source describes the journalist as such.) A solution could be found by providing sources in which these persons are described as such, rather than providing a source that an editor believes make him/her a "new religious movement researcher." ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I used the description of these people as stated in their biographical articles. They are anti-cult advocates, are they not? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
"Author" is too generic of a term. We need sub sections to categorize these persons properly and not mix apples and oranges. If "anti-cult advocate" does not work for you, please propose an alternative distinction. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The classification is still not right. Most, if not all, the people listed on the academic sections have published many books on the subject. We need a way to differentiate between them and other authors that are not publishing as academics. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
These comments are for everyone, but to User:Tanaats, I wasn't too offended, it seemed like you simply overreacted a bit. Others here have been far more rude (even since then), to the point of being offensive and insulting. Btw, I didn't say you should pull my edit summary out and post it here on the talk page, merely that you might respond to my reasoning.
It seems to me there are 3 issues in the introduction that I was dealing with:
1. Use of the word "and" in "new religious movements and cults". This "and" can be read - by those who would draw a distinction between "new religious movements" and "cults" - as a person qualifying for the list if they have conducted research on groups in both categories. Similarly, the statement "Researchers of new religious movements and cults made sure to buy gifts on Valentine's Day for their wives and girlfriends" could be taken to mean that some cult researcher might buy a gift for his wife but forget to buy one for his girlfriend too (or vice-versa). A better choice than "and" (or the slash that I used) is "or", which can be read either as following or not following a distinction between "new religious movement" and "cult".
2. Enumerating the categories in the definition: This bad idea has already been taken care of. The criterion is researcher; whether someone is an "author" or not, for example, has no bearing.
3. The third issue is the most important, and I have mentioned it twice already, but it seems as though no one has paid attention. A researcher conducts research. This does not include someone repeating what they heard from someone else, a highly biased "study" that does not follow standard procedures either by a cult member or a detractor, or other expressions of opinion that do not follow standard research methods. The only way to exclude such "study" or "investigation" which is not research is to include the criteria of peer review. Anyone who would seek to pack this list with people they like might argue that rather than each research profession deciding who to accept based on peer review, that he himself (the Wikipedia editor in question) can evaluate who has done work that meets the standards that could be called "research" rather than some less rigorous investigation. Besides the gargantuan hubris involved in such a proposal, it would never work because there would be varying opinions; it is a slippery slope from which there is no recovery. The only criterion that could work is the standard of peer review. That is the standard by which someone is judged within each field. Wikipedia editors cannot substitute their own arbitrary standards (which would be unworkable anyway). Let's not make Wikipedia into a farce; it is an encyclopedia. - Do c t orW 19:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
<<< There is no need to have multiple sources per person. One that establishes criteria for inclusion, is sufficient. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
We need to define criteria very tightly, otherwise there will be disputes about many of the people listed. In my experience with lists, which is quite substantial, unless there is a very unambiguous criteria, these lists become POV magnets to either "promote" a person (is the list has positive connotations) or "demote" a person (if the list carry negative connotations). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
(I would appreciate not to be told to "STOP with your sarcasm" in edit summaries. That is inappropriate and a violation of use of summaries. If you are upset by editing these articles, take some time to cool off) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe some clarification is due. When we say "Sure" we mean just that: I could have said "Yes". I do not mean "sure" as said with sarcasm like "sure... right..." ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
So far there is only one proposal on the table for specific criteria for "researchers", which is mine above ( "Researchers": published, peer-review). May I suggest that other proposals for specific criteria be made, and discussion undertaken before more names are added to the list that would obviously be excluded under one of the proposals? - Do c t orW 22:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of discussion here, but no one else made any concrete proposal for criteria for researchers. If mine is the only concrete proposal, it should be followed unless and until overturned by another one. An additional page can be created for authors on cults who are not researchers. (We probably need such a page no matter what other decisions are made; only the most ludicrous and tortured definition would include every author as a "researcher".) - Do c t orW 18:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Responses to Jossi's proposal for criteria for "researcher":
On point one: Master's programs are not designed to teach people how to do research. In order to learn how to do research properly, one needs more than two years of coursework in content areas. Research in the social sciences is very hard to do without commiting fatal errors even for those with Ph.D.s! A Ph.D. level degree has to be the qualification.
On point two: Are you suggesting we abandon the requirement of peer review? As I mentioned before, this may be a slippery slope from which there is no recovery.
On point three: I don't think this is necessary. If a well-qualified, academic researcher does a single, high-quality research study of a cult/NRM and has it published in a peer-reviewed journal, that by itself might not make him notable, but he should certainly be included even if he is not notable for anything else. - Do c t orW 19:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Are two very distinct things. Suggest keeping only Psychotherapists and removing all others that are not scholars. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not appreciate reversions (sometimes repeated) of my annotated edits with no discussion. I have given good reasons here and/or in my edit summaries. Some changes are obviously needed and would have required no reason given by me, but these also have been reverted with no comment. Please be more civil. - Do c t orW 13:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
You have been highly uncivil here, as I have documented above. I am not angry. I am simply trying to point out to you exactly where your behavior has been lacking in common courtesy. After your using an offensive term and my citing another editor's comparison of it to another offensive term, perhaps you are the one who should apologize for actually using an offensive term (as opposed to my citing a comparison to one).
Btw, I meant to leave (while protesting) your version of the two edits I characterized above as "still on the table", and only remove the weasel words, but I discovered afterward that I had reverted all 3 minor items, and decided to comment here first. I'm guessing you'll just revert me anyway, as that has been your pattern. - Do c t orW 14:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not add someone to this list unless there is a brief description on his/her page of the empirical study(ies) on cults or new religious movements conducted by that researcher. There is also a page for authors ( List of authors opposing cults) for those who write about cults or new religious movements who have not conducted empirical research studies. - Do c t orW 17:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I moved the lawyers to the "authors" page. (See comment immediately above.) - Do c t orW 17:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |