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This article has been cited by Malaysiakini about him amassing wealth for 27 years: "S'wak CM in Wikipedia: 'Hush hush' in the assembly", Malaysiakini, May 9, 2008. ќמшמφטтгמ torque 11:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Can someone find credible evidence about the involvement in the Canadian and Australian companies mentioned here. With out it, this article would be just a rumor board. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.255.108.2 ( talk) 08:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
There are a number of missing citations throughout this article. Most notably there are missing citations within the 'Controversies' section, which suggests that there is some sort of political or other motivation behind these unfounded claims.
We need to ensure that this article is neutral and states the facts. If editors can please find citations for areas that I have marked as soon as possible. If citations cannot be found for these areas then they must be deleted. Check out the Wikipedia's Content Removal for guidance [ Wikipedia Removal Guide]
Thanks all Biggleswiki ( talk) 14:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
I removed a huge number of dead links within this article and there are many sections that need attention, so I though we could start with the most problematic, 'Controversies'.
A number of statements within the 'Controversies' section are not referenced at all. If there are statements without references then they should be deleted immediately. This article attracts a number of politically motivated Wikipedians so we must make sure everything is referenced properly, if not, remove it.
Please add references asap before we start removing unfounded statements.
Thanks,
Biggleswiki ( talk) 12:57, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
How Biggleswiki was being investigated in the news:
There are 100 references in the article but only 3 in the references. This is very unsatisfactory, as many of them point to sources exposing corruption of a figure know to pay media outfits, e.g. to duplciated the sarawakreport.org. Can Governments remove refererences? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.35.135.133 ( talk) 04:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your concern about missing references in this article. All the references have been restored. Cerevisae ( talk) 13:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm already heared that he already resign from being Sarawak Chief Minister after 33 years being a chief minister.-- Apli kasi 18:39, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
The paragraph admits what it initially says is false and even the citation from Malaysiakini is an apology for what was accused. It's obvious he doesn't get the same gushing entry as Ahmad Zaidi Adruce or Rosli Dhobi, but this needs clean up.-- AhmedFaizP ( talk) 19:15, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I've read this over and my concern is the use of the words alleged and allegations. It appears again in the Sarawak Report and Bruno Manser Fund section under Personal Wealth also. It seems very suspect since I couldn't find any charges or convictions related to these stories. The Global Witness paragraph veers greatly away from talking about the subject himself. The citations refer to investigations but I couldn't find much in the way of proof, almost bordering on Wikipedia:Libel. Thoughts?-- AhmedFaizP ( talk) 00:33, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
As for Global Witness video, it definitely have links to Taib but according to two news reports MACC found no evidence of corruption because their found no proof that Taib has made the decision personally to award contracts/concessions to his associates. See here: Taib's son rich from gov't deals, but no proof of abuse and No proof of Taib power abuse as Sarawak ministers had approved land for his kin, say sources However, the 2014 Malaysian Insider newspaper said that "the investigation papers on the cases were still open as Attorney General Tan Sri Abdul Gani Patail has directed the team to secure more solid evidence". This means that Taib has not been cleared by MACC and investigations still ongoing. Cerevisae ( talk) 08:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
This version violates the guidelines even more and is very biased. As I mentioned, our grievances are for blogs, not for Wikipedia. The See Also needs to be removed. Completely biased sources, please see WP:BIASED. For the Controveries section, subjectively choosing "highly corrupt" is not for Wikipedia also. To make it easier to follow I will show the sentences and what guidelines they viloate.
Taib Mahmud was described as "highly corrupt" according to a series of leaked US embassy cables published in August 2011 - described by someone, regardless of position, is an opinion, see WP:FAPO
Taib Mahmud was reported to have full control of logging industry - same as above, no facts
This enabled him to use timber concessions for personal and family enrichment - accusation, unsourced, need facts from unbiased source, needs to be removed
He was responsible for accelerating the pace of logging in Sarawak - blaming one man for this is not feasible, saying he contributed, was in charge when it happened, that would be acceptable if worded with no ill intent
Taib was alleged to favour his family members in various business appointments in Sarawak - "alleged", not for Wikipedia, line needs to be removed
The companies which have relationships with the chief minister's family such as Cahya Mata Sarawak Berhad (CMSB), Naim Holdings Berhad, Sarawak Energy, Ta Ann, and Titanium Management Sdn Bhd has benefited from various state contracts/concessions/land dealings which were granted without public tender - there is a correlation, but again this an accusation, it is not what Wikipedia is for
The next paragraph is a rebuttle with very strong hints to say he is still guilty outside of convictions and another example of WP:BIASED. If there are no charges then there shouldn't be a discussion on Wikipedia. We need to hold Wikipedia to the high standard guidelines or we jeopardize the intergrity of what Wikipedia is.
The Personal Wealth section would need to be do for everyone on Wikipedia, even "green" billionaires [1], but talking about items in people's houses, piano's they didn't buy, all have sinister undertones and make this a violation of WP:ATTACK.
This line - Taib's daughter Jamilah and family members has been establishing real property estates in Canada, United States, and United Kingdom. Taib Mahmud admitted that his daughter owns properties in Canada and London but he denied that he has any business interests in his daughter's properties. - admits that it is an accuation, again see WP:ATTACK and is in the Personal Wealth, personal being Taib, his daughter does not belong in this section
The next paragraph starting with ...Bruno Manser Fonds has since disclosed that Taib and his immediate family... is coming from a biased and agenda based source, making it unreliable. I tried to find objective articles to justify it's inclusion but to no avail. As I mentioned I agree opinion wise but this is not for Wikipedia. It undermines the whole process of impartial facts which is what Wikipedia strives to be.-- AhmedFaizP ( talk) 19:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Cerevisae, I have no problem with that because that wasn't written with bias (promotional). I don't believe anything anyone says, even Clare. There is a clear distinction between facts and opinions/accusations. So no need to include his response to accusations since accusations shouldn't be there in the first place. You including that is offensive. You are saying a man from Sarawak, like myself, cannot afford these items and you are implying that the subject was able to do so by illegal means. Do you see my link to the "green" billionaires? I just did an image search for Clare, she seems to have a nice home, should I put that in her entry? No, it's absurd. Think of the casual reader. These items have no place in Wikipedia and we need to protect the integrity of it. So let's try a more simple approach. Based on what I just said let's try a couple of lines at a time.
Taib Mahmud was described as "highly corrupt" according to a series of leaked US embassy cables published in August 2011 - described by someone, regardless of position, is an opinion, see WP:FAPO. Some nameless faceless person said that. That is not Wikipedia worthy. That is for the Sarawak Report.
Taib Mahmud was reported to have full control of logging industry - same as above, no facts, it is an accusation. Keep the accusations away.
This individual is controversial, namely because of the accusations, but the way you created these 2 sections doesn't meet the guidelines. It's not for praising people or accusing them. It should be like an encyclopedia, dry and just the facts. -- AhmedFaizP ( talk) 18:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
You are very welcome to publish Clare's residence photos if any news organisation mentioned about it, including New Straits Times of course. This meets the WP:Notability guideline. Most news organisation when writing about Taib, always mention about the issues in the Controversies and his Personal Wealth. Therefore, they should be included in this article according to WP:Notability guideline. These two sections sections originally occupies about half of the article space and now it is reduced to only a fraction of the article and you still not satisfied with it. You are dying to get it removed. Please take a look at the two sections now. I think it is much more neutral, but you still think it is bias and libelous. Remember that your view on whether the sections are neutral or not is also only an opinion. Why don't get it evaluated by a third-party? Cerevisae ( talk) 01:56, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Would someone please concisely state what the dispute is? It's a little hard to figure out. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 01:37, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Abdul Taib Mahmud article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
A news item involving Abdul Taib Mahmud was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 28 February 2024. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has been cited by Malaysiakini about him amassing wealth for 27 years: "S'wak CM in Wikipedia: 'Hush hush' in the assembly", Malaysiakini, May 9, 2008. ќמшמφטтгמ torque 11:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Can someone find credible evidence about the involvement in the Canadian and Australian companies mentioned here. With out it, this article would be just a rumor board. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.255.108.2 ( talk) 08:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
There are a number of missing citations throughout this article. Most notably there are missing citations within the 'Controversies' section, which suggests that there is some sort of political or other motivation behind these unfounded claims.
We need to ensure that this article is neutral and states the facts. If editors can please find citations for areas that I have marked as soon as possible. If citations cannot be found for these areas then they must be deleted. Check out the Wikipedia's Content Removal for guidance [ Wikipedia Removal Guide]
Thanks all Biggleswiki ( talk) 14:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
I removed a huge number of dead links within this article and there are many sections that need attention, so I though we could start with the most problematic, 'Controversies'.
A number of statements within the 'Controversies' section are not referenced at all. If there are statements without references then they should be deleted immediately. This article attracts a number of politically motivated Wikipedians so we must make sure everything is referenced properly, if not, remove it.
Please add references asap before we start removing unfounded statements.
Thanks,
Biggleswiki ( talk) 12:57, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
How Biggleswiki was being investigated in the news:
There are 100 references in the article but only 3 in the references. This is very unsatisfactory, as many of them point to sources exposing corruption of a figure know to pay media outfits, e.g. to duplciated the sarawakreport.org. Can Governments remove refererences? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.35.135.133 ( talk) 04:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your concern about missing references in this article. All the references have been restored. Cerevisae ( talk) 13:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm already heared that he already resign from being Sarawak Chief Minister after 33 years being a chief minister.-- Apli kasi 18:39, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
The paragraph admits what it initially says is false and even the citation from Malaysiakini is an apology for what was accused. It's obvious he doesn't get the same gushing entry as Ahmad Zaidi Adruce or Rosli Dhobi, but this needs clean up.-- AhmedFaizP ( talk) 19:15, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I've read this over and my concern is the use of the words alleged and allegations. It appears again in the Sarawak Report and Bruno Manser Fund section under Personal Wealth also. It seems very suspect since I couldn't find any charges or convictions related to these stories. The Global Witness paragraph veers greatly away from talking about the subject himself. The citations refer to investigations but I couldn't find much in the way of proof, almost bordering on Wikipedia:Libel. Thoughts?-- AhmedFaizP ( talk) 00:33, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
As for Global Witness video, it definitely have links to Taib but according to two news reports MACC found no evidence of corruption because their found no proof that Taib has made the decision personally to award contracts/concessions to his associates. See here: Taib's son rich from gov't deals, but no proof of abuse and No proof of Taib power abuse as Sarawak ministers had approved land for his kin, say sources However, the 2014 Malaysian Insider newspaper said that "the investigation papers on the cases were still open as Attorney General Tan Sri Abdul Gani Patail has directed the team to secure more solid evidence". This means that Taib has not been cleared by MACC and investigations still ongoing. Cerevisae ( talk) 08:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
This version violates the guidelines even more and is very biased. As I mentioned, our grievances are for blogs, not for Wikipedia. The See Also needs to be removed. Completely biased sources, please see WP:BIASED. For the Controveries section, subjectively choosing "highly corrupt" is not for Wikipedia also. To make it easier to follow I will show the sentences and what guidelines they viloate.
Taib Mahmud was described as "highly corrupt" according to a series of leaked US embassy cables published in August 2011 - described by someone, regardless of position, is an opinion, see WP:FAPO
Taib Mahmud was reported to have full control of logging industry - same as above, no facts
This enabled him to use timber concessions for personal and family enrichment - accusation, unsourced, need facts from unbiased source, needs to be removed
He was responsible for accelerating the pace of logging in Sarawak - blaming one man for this is not feasible, saying he contributed, was in charge when it happened, that would be acceptable if worded with no ill intent
Taib was alleged to favour his family members in various business appointments in Sarawak - "alleged", not for Wikipedia, line needs to be removed
The companies which have relationships with the chief minister's family such as Cahya Mata Sarawak Berhad (CMSB), Naim Holdings Berhad, Sarawak Energy, Ta Ann, and Titanium Management Sdn Bhd has benefited from various state contracts/concessions/land dealings which were granted without public tender - there is a correlation, but again this an accusation, it is not what Wikipedia is for
The next paragraph is a rebuttle with very strong hints to say he is still guilty outside of convictions and another example of WP:BIASED. If there are no charges then there shouldn't be a discussion on Wikipedia. We need to hold Wikipedia to the high standard guidelines or we jeopardize the intergrity of what Wikipedia is.
The Personal Wealth section would need to be do for everyone on Wikipedia, even "green" billionaires [1], but talking about items in people's houses, piano's they didn't buy, all have sinister undertones and make this a violation of WP:ATTACK.
This line - Taib's daughter Jamilah and family members has been establishing real property estates in Canada, United States, and United Kingdom. Taib Mahmud admitted that his daughter owns properties in Canada and London but he denied that he has any business interests in his daughter's properties. - admits that it is an accuation, again see WP:ATTACK and is in the Personal Wealth, personal being Taib, his daughter does not belong in this section
The next paragraph starting with ...Bruno Manser Fonds has since disclosed that Taib and his immediate family... is coming from a biased and agenda based source, making it unreliable. I tried to find objective articles to justify it's inclusion but to no avail. As I mentioned I agree opinion wise but this is not for Wikipedia. It undermines the whole process of impartial facts which is what Wikipedia strives to be.-- AhmedFaizP ( talk) 19:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Cerevisae, I have no problem with that because that wasn't written with bias (promotional). I don't believe anything anyone says, even Clare. There is a clear distinction between facts and opinions/accusations. So no need to include his response to accusations since accusations shouldn't be there in the first place. You including that is offensive. You are saying a man from Sarawak, like myself, cannot afford these items and you are implying that the subject was able to do so by illegal means. Do you see my link to the "green" billionaires? I just did an image search for Clare, she seems to have a nice home, should I put that in her entry? No, it's absurd. Think of the casual reader. These items have no place in Wikipedia and we need to protect the integrity of it. So let's try a more simple approach. Based on what I just said let's try a couple of lines at a time.
Taib Mahmud was described as "highly corrupt" according to a series of leaked US embassy cables published in August 2011 - described by someone, regardless of position, is an opinion, see WP:FAPO. Some nameless faceless person said that. That is not Wikipedia worthy. That is for the Sarawak Report.
Taib Mahmud was reported to have full control of logging industry - same as above, no facts, it is an accusation. Keep the accusations away.
This individual is controversial, namely because of the accusations, but the way you created these 2 sections doesn't meet the guidelines. It's not for praising people or accusing them. It should be like an encyclopedia, dry and just the facts. -- AhmedFaizP ( talk) 18:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
You are very welcome to publish Clare's residence photos if any news organisation mentioned about it, including New Straits Times of course. This meets the WP:Notability guideline. Most news organisation when writing about Taib, always mention about the issues in the Controversies and his Personal Wealth. Therefore, they should be included in this article according to WP:Notability guideline. These two sections sections originally occupies about half of the article space and now it is reduced to only a fraction of the article and you still not satisfied with it. You are dying to get it removed. Please take a look at the two sections now. I think it is much more neutral, but you still think it is bias and libelous. Remember that your view on whether the sections are neutral or not is also only an opinion. Why don't get it evaluated by a third-party? Cerevisae ( talk) 01:56, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Would someone please concisely state what the dispute is? It's a little hard to figure out. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 01:37, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
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