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"BZ was referenced in the Vietnam War film Jacob's Ladder, but the effects depicted in the film are not accurate. No evidence exists that BZ sends people exposed to it into a homicidal frenzy, as the film suggests." Is it safe to say this? This sounds more like an opinion, but I could be wrong. I haven't seen the movie but it doesn't sound particularly infeasable to me. I am getting the impressino that the 'studies' on BZ thus far (at least the ones that are public knowledge) have taken place in controlled clinical settings. If BZ were administered during a war scenario, I imagine that the delerium and hallucination in combination with an environment of intense mortal danger wherin you can be killed at any momemnt would be more than enough to cause otherwise sane people to engage in indescriminate acts out violence out of confusion, especially if, as the article says, moral and social conventions often deteriorate and result in otherwise impermissible behavior. -- 66.253.36.46 ( talk) 10:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
On 7 Aug 2005 much earlier medical materials about folie a deux, etc. were removed. These hinted at the possibility of telepathy, shared visual hallucinations. I have replaced these older materials, because I think they may have great value. User:Kazuba 27 Aug 2006
```Hhmm the page says that BZ was never used by the US army. Isnt this disputed by some?
Yes, it has been disputed, much because of the movie Jacob's Ladder, which in the end stated that the hallucinogenic and psychoactive drug that was given to the main character Jacob was BZ and that the pentagon denied ever administrating it to anyone in the Vietnamese war. Jacob's Ladder is supposedly based on a true story. -- Chemiclex 21:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Just did a major cleanup of the signs and symptoms section, many of the listed signs/symptoms were either repeated or didnt convey an actual symptom. -- Chemiclex 21:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm new to editing wikipedia articles, but I thought the following was relevant.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002000.html
its about the supposed abuse of BZ by Iraqi fighters before battle. Worth mentioning? ?
I returned the removed similies: they're commonly used mnemonics in medicine, and help to convey a message of specific symptoms. – Clockwork Soul 16:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I just thought it was weird to have 'Blind as a bat', 'dry as a bone', 'mad as a hatter', etc added in brackets and speech marks after each symptom. Do you think you could include an explanation in the article, so that people know what they are and why they're there? Otherwise it looks like someone added very strange comments to the article.
Thank you. 11:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC) (Skittle)
I'm for their removal as well. I thought them so odd that I checked this discussion page to see if others felt the same. They are really strange and confusing.
Why is recreational use of this drug inconceivable if the side effects included euphoria, relaxation, etc? It sounds like multi-person acid, which I know a lot of people would try. A lot of the effects sound terrifying, but anyone who has ever had a bad trip knows that mushrooms, acid, DMT, etc. are very capable of incapacitation and inducing fear.
...Uh, thats practically what I was saying in response to the comment above mine.-- Metalhead94 ( talk) 04:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
This is too funny ... So to get high with something about as fun as a psychotic trip on atropine, someone is going to synthesize a complex chemical using rare feedstocks at a cost higher than chemically synthesizing cocaine from chocolate. Guys, it's a chemical warfare agent that no longer exists in any declared stockpile, and is highly controlled to minimal research quantities by the CWC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.212.58 ( talk) 13:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The effects seem somewhat similar to someone who's really drunk. Is this a right interpretation or am I missing the point here?
93.125.198.182 (
talk) 00:53, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
If people use deliriants like datura, dramamine, DPH, and deadly nightshade recreationally, you can bet your ass there are people out there who would be more than willing to try BZ. Hell, there are people who use chloroform recreationally and there are people who are dumb enough to take PMA. Recreational use of BZ is non-existent because... well... it's not exactly easy to find.-- 76.106.246.229 ( talk) 18:20, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I had mistakenly assumed the Lct50 of BZ was 200,000 mg.min/m3 form amny years. Dr. Jim Katchum, a military surgeon with first hand experieince in the program called me on this and after investigating it I found I could not find a supporting reference. However, the Joint CB Technical Data Source Book on BZ states the LCt01 (for 1% fatalities), is 3,800 - 40,000 mg.min.m3. Dr. Katchum's experieince indicated that a figure around 4,000 mg.min/m3 was appropriate. I believe the 200,000 mg.min/m3 estimate came from erroneous extrapolation of animal model data - specifically Randall, L. O. et al. Spasmolytic action of bicyclic basic alcohol esters. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics 104: 284-90, 1952, which infers a 1,000 fold difference between ICt50 and LCt50, which when applied to an East German figure for the ICt50 of 200 mg.min/m3 from the 1960's produces the figure mistakenly stated today.
Reid Kirby 16 January 2007
in this section of the article the following stuck out: "certain tranquilizers like ketamine or fentanyl" ketamine is not a tranquilizer in the technical sense, rather it is a dissociative anaesthetic. afaik 'tranquilizer' does not have a specific medical definition differing from the generic 'sedative', so it may be more accurate to refer to it as such. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3dom ( talk • contribs) 19:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
Which delivery systems was this agent installed?
143.232.210.150 (
talk) 01:59, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Towards the end it starts to use inferred second person and almost turn into an instruction set! I don't know if it was written up that way or if it was swiped wholesale from some source, but it definately fits the cleanup tag someone added. 68.39.174.238 06:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Just removed another blatant irrelevancy:
Now, I don't know a damn thing about BZ; that's why I'm reading the article. But this is clearly a prank -- just barely under the radar ("smooth as a seal"). This is the sort of damfoolishness that makes WP the butt of jokes on the train or Colbert Report.
Is this project still worth anything? — Xiong 熊 talk * 05:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about the similes (I didn't see any), but alot of the stuff taken from the DoD has too much medical advice in it. I've removed some, but alot probably remains. 150.250.43.216 ( talk) 22:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
http://defensetech.org/2005/12/07/insurgents-using-chem-weapons-on-themselves/-- 76.106.246.229 ( talk) 19:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
N.B. - recreational use of BZ is highly improbable due to cost. Imagine paying a few hundred dollars to feel fighting drunk for a week without any recall of where you have been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.119.215.193 ( talk) 15:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
QNB, especially in radio-labeled form, has been used for years as a tool by pharmacologists for studying the binding of ligands to muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. Please try to adopt a broader perspective on chemical substances, and try to make Wikipedia useful to as wide an audience as possible. Concentrating on the military and recreational aspects of agents like QNB distorts and polarizes the public, who might otherwise learn that chemicals have all sorts of properties, some of which are used just to extend our knowledge of how nature works. Xprofj ( talk) 23:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
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The following is unsourced. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per [{WP:BURDEN]] please do not restore without finding reliable sources per WP:MEDRS or WP:RS as needed, checking the content against them, and citing them.
BZ is a glycolate anticholinergic compound related to atropine, scopolamine, hyoscyamine, and other deliriants. Dispersal would be as an aerosolized solid (primarily for inhalation) or as agent dissolved in one or more solvents for ingestion or percutaneous absorption.
Acting as a competitive non-selective blocker at postsynaptic and postjunctional muscarinic receptor sites in smooth muscle, exocrine glands, and the brain, BZ decreases the effective concentration of acetylcholine seen by receptors at these sites. Thus, BZ causes PNS effects that in general are the opposite of those seen in nerve agent poisoning. CNS effects include stupor, confusion, and confabulation with concrete and panoramic illusions and hallucinations, and with regression to primitive, involuntary behaviors such as floccillation and disrobing.
Physostigmine, which increases the concentration of acetylcholine in synapses and in neuromuscular and neuroglandular junctions, is a specific antidote.
The agent BZ and other anticholinergic glycolates act as a competitive antagonist at postjunctional muscarinic receptors in cardiac and smooth muscle and in exocrine (ducted) glands and (2) at postsynaptic receptors in neurons. As the concentration of BZ at these sites increases, the proportion of receptors available for binding to acetylcholine decreases, leading to clinical effects reflective of understimulation of end organs.
Production of BZ is controlled under schedule 2 of the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1997.
BZ is dispersed as an aerosol. It may be micropulverized for dissemination by a disperser (90% dissemination efficiency), or mixed with a pyrotechnic burning mixture for dissemination in burning munitions (70% dissemination efficiency). Alternatively, it may be dissolved in a solvent such as DMSO to enhance percutaneous absorption, though experiments before this proved unsatisfactory for military purposes.
Bioavailability via ingestion and by inhalation of particles 1 micrometer in size approximates 80%, and 40 to 50%, respectively, of a parenterally delivered dose of BZ. Percutaneous absorption of BZ dissolved in propylene glycol yields, after a latent period of up to 24 hours, serum levels approximately 5 to 10% of those achieved with intravenous or intramuscular administration.
Following absorption, BZ is systemically distributed to most organs and biological tissues of the body. Its ability to reach synapses and neuromuscular and neuroglandular junctions throughout the body is responsible for its PNS effects, whereas its ability to cross the blood–brain barrier confers upon it the ability to cause CNS effects. Atropine and hyoscyamine both cross the placenta and can be found in small quantities in breast milk; whether this is also true for BZ is unclear.
Metabolism of BZ would be expected to occur primarily in the liver, with elimination of unchanged agent and metabolites chiefly in the urine.
In the field the only immediate indications of its use may be the white smoke emanating from delivered weapons. Though detection methods have been developed for BZ, these have not been standardized for field use and are limited to laboratory analysis or specialized monitoring in industrial facilities.
Protection from BZ means blocking it from entry into the body. At dosages adequate for a lung effect there is little risk of absorption through the skin or contact hazards from aerosols that have settled out onto surfaces. The amount of BZ that may settle out on surfaces from an aerosol is too small to represent a hazard from secondary aerosols. Therefore, the most appropriate protective response is to don a protective mask with a good quality aerosol filter. Even improvised respiratory protection (e.g., several folded pieces of cloth over the nose and mouth) may render BZ employment ineffectual.
There is the possibility that BZ could be employed for a skin effect by adding to a skin penetrating solvent, or used for a secondary aerosol through contaminating terrain with bulk micro-pulverized BZ. However, both of these employment schemes are unlikely owing to the high cost and uncontrolled dose (potentially lethal). In any situation where BZ is present in liquid or bulk powder form, adequate skin protection with impermeable protective clothing and gloves is warranted.
-- Jytdog ( talk) 11:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-trace-of-western-made-nerve-agent-seen-in-uk-samples/2018/04/14/c76a8b30-3ff7-11e8-955b-7d2e19b79966_story.html http://www.dw.com/en/russias-sergey-lavrov-claims-sergei-skripal-was-poisoned-with-western-bz-nerve-agent/a-43390589 https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/04/14/world/europe/14reuters-britain-russia-skripal-lavrov.html https://twitter.com/SpiezLab/status/985243574123057152 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.154.69.215 ( talk) 04:40, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
It's possible that BZ was administered as an antidote, which would account for traces of it appearing in the blood samples. It's chemically very similar to atropine, the more familiar treatment for nerve-agent poisoning, but much more powerful. Because it counters the effect of Novichok, it could not have been part of the actual chemical weapon. This would explain why it did not figure in the final report, since the OPCW's task was to identify the weapon. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 16:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"BZ was referenced in the Vietnam War film Jacob's Ladder, but the effects depicted in the film are not accurate. No evidence exists that BZ sends people exposed to it into a homicidal frenzy, as the film suggests." Is it safe to say this? This sounds more like an opinion, but I could be wrong. I haven't seen the movie but it doesn't sound particularly infeasable to me. I am getting the impressino that the 'studies' on BZ thus far (at least the ones that are public knowledge) have taken place in controlled clinical settings. If BZ were administered during a war scenario, I imagine that the delerium and hallucination in combination with an environment of intense mortal danger wherin you can be killed at any momemnt would be more than enough to cause otherwise sane people to engage in indescriminate acts out violence out of confusion, especially if, as the article says, moral and social conventions often deteriorate and result in otherwise impermissible behavior. -- 66.253.36.46 ( talk) 10:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
On 7 Aug 2005 much earlier medical materials about folie a deux, etc. were removed. These hinted at the possibility of telepathy, shared visual hallucinations. I have replaced these older materials, because I think they may have great value. User:Kazuba 27 Aug 2006
```Hhmm the page says that BZ was never used by the US army. Isnt this disputed by some?
Yes, it has been disputed, much because of the movie Jacob's Ladder, which in the end stated that the hallucinogenic and psychoactive drug that was given to the main character Jacob was BZ and that the pentagon denied ever administrating it to anyone in the Vietnamese war. Jacob's Ladder is supposedly based on a true story. -- Chemiclex 21:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Just did a major cleanup of the signs and symptoms section, many of the listed signs/symptoms were either repeated or didnt convey an actual symptom. -- Chemiclex 21:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm new to editing wikipedia articles, but I thought the following was relevant.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002000.html
its about the supposed abuse of BZ by Iraqi fighters before battle. Worth mentioning? ?
I returned the removed similies: they're commonly used mnemonics in medicine, and help to convey a message of specific symptoms. – Clockwork Soul 16:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I just thought it was weird to have 'Blind as a bat', 'dry as a bone', 'mad as a hatter', etc added in brackets and speech marks after each symptom. Do you think you could include an explanation in the article, so that people know what they are and why they're there? Otherwise it looks like someone added very strange comments to the article.
Thank you. 11:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC) (Skittle)
I'm for their removal as well. I thought them so odd that I checked this discussion page to see if others felt the same. They are really strange and confusing.
Why is recreational use of this drug inconceivable if the side effects included euphoria, relaxation, etc? It sounds like multi-person acid, which I know a lot of people would try. A lot of the effects sound terrifying, but anyone who has ever had a bad trip knows that mushrooms, acid, DMT, etc. are very capable of incapacitation and inducing fear.
...Uh, thats practically what I was saying in response to the comment above mine.-- Metalhead94 ( talk) 04:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
This is too funny ... So to get high with something about as fun as a psychotic trip on atropine, someone is going to synthesize a complex chemical using rare feedstocks at a cost higher than chemically synthesizing cocaine from chocolate. Guys, it's a chemical warfare agent that no longer exists in any declared stockpile, and is highly controlled to minimal research quantities by the CWC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.212.58 ( talk) 13:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The effects seem somewhat similar to someone who's really drunk. Is this a right interpretation or am I missing the point here?
93.125.198.182 (
talk) 00:53, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
If people use deliriants like datura, dramamine, DPH, and deadly nightshade recreationally, you can bet your ass there are people out there who would be more than willing to try BZ. Hell, there are people who use chloroform recreationally and there are people who are dumb enough to take PMA. Recreational use of BZ is non-existent because... well... it's not exactly easy to find.-- 76.106.246.229 ( talk) 18:20, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I had mistakenly assumed the Lct50 of BZ was 200,000 mg.min/m3 form amny years. Dr. Jim Katchum, a military surgeon with first hand experieince in the program called me on this and after investigating it I found I could not find a supporting reference. However, the Joint CB Technical Data Source Book on BZ states the LCt01 (for 1% fatalities), is 3,800 - 40,000 mg.min.m3. Dr. Katchum's experieince indicated that a figure around 4,000 mg.min/m3 was appropriate. I believe the 200,000 mg.min/m3 estimate came from erroneous extrapolation of animal model data - specifically Randall, L. O. et al. Spasmolytic action of bicyclic basic alcohol esters. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics 104: 284-90, 1952, which infers a 1,000 fold difference between ICt50 and LCt50, which when applied to an East German figure for the ICt50 of 200 mg.min/m3 from the 1960's produces the figure mistakenly stated today.
Reid Kirby 16 January 2007
in this section of the article the following stuck out: "certain tranquilizers like ketamine or fentanyl" ketamine is not a tranquilizer in the technical sense, rather it is a dissociative anaesthetic. afaik 'tranquilizer' does not have a specific medical definition differing from the generic 'sedative', so it may be more accurate to refer to it as such. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3dom ( talk • contribs) 19:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
Which delivery systems was this agent installed?
143.232.210.150 (
talk) 01:59, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Towards the end it starts to use inferred second person and almost turn into an instruction set! I don't know if it was written up that way or if it was swiped wholesale from some source, but it definately fits the cleanup tag someone added. 68.39.174.238 06:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Just removed another blatant irrelevancy:
Now, I don't know a damn thing about BZ; that's why I'm reading the article. But this is clearly a prank -- just barely under the radar ("smooth as a seal"). This is the sort of damfoolishness that makes WP the butt of jokes on the train or Colbert Report.
Is this project still worth anything? — Xiong 熊 talk * 05:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about the similes (I didn't see any), but alot of the stuff taken from the DoD has too much medical advice in it. I've removed some, but alot probably remains. 150.250.43.216 ( talk) 22:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
http://defensetech.org/2005/12/07/insurgents-using-chem-weapons-on-themselves/-- 76.106.246.229 ( talk) 19:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
N.B. - recreational use of BZ is highly improbable due to cost. Imagine paying a few hundred dollars to feel fighting drunk for a week without any recall of where you have been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.119.215.193 ( talk) 15:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
QNB, especially in radio-labeled form, has been used for years as a tool by pharmacologists for studying the binding of ligands to muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. Please try to adopt a broader perspective on chemical substances, and try to make Wikipedia useful to as wide an audience as possible. Concentrating on the military and recreational aspects of agents like QNB distorts and polarizes the public, who might otherwise learn that chemicals have all sorts of properties, some of which are used just to extend our knowledge of how nature works. Xprofj ( talk) 23:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:39, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:37, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
The following is unsourced. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per [{WP:BURDEN]] please do not restore without finding reliable sources per WP:MEDRS or WP:RS as needed, checking the content against them, and citing them.
BZ is a glycolate anticholinergic compound related to atropine, scopolamine, hyoscyamine, and other deliriants. Dispersal would be as an aerosolized solid (primarily for inhalation) or as agent dissolved in one or more solvents for ingestion or percutaneous absorption.
Acting as a competitive non-selective blocker at postsynaptic and postjunctional muscarinic receptor sites in smooth muscle, exocrine glands, and the brain, BZ decreases the effective concentration of acetylcholine seen by receptors at these sites. Thus, BZ causes PNS effects that in general are the opposite of those seen in nerve agent poisoning. CNS effects include stupor, confusion, and confabulation with concrete and panoramic illusions and hallucinations, and with regression to primitive, involuntary behaviors such as floccillation and disrobing.
Physostigmine, which increases the concentration of acetylcholine in synapses and in neuromuscular and neuroglandular junctions, is a specific antidote.
The agent BZ and other anticholinergic glycolates act as a competitive antagonist at postjunctional muscarinic receptors in cardiac and smooth muscle and in exocrine (ducted) glands and (2) at postsynaptic receptors in neurons. As the concentration of BZ at these sites increases, the proportion of receptors available for binding to acetylcholine decreases, leading to clinical effects reflective of understimulation of end organs.
Production of BZ is controlled under schedule 2 of the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1997.
BZ is dispersed as an aerosol. It may be micropulverized for dissemination by a disperser (90% dissemination efficiency), or mixed with a pyrotechnic burning mixture for dissemination in burning munitions (70% dissemination efficiency). Alternatively, it may be dissolved in a solvent such as DMSO to enhance percutaneous absorption, though experiments before this proved unsatisfactory for military purposes.
Bioavailability via ingestion and by inhalation of particles 1 micrometer in size approximates 80%, and 40 to 50%, respectively, of a parenterally delivered dose of BZ. Percutaneous absorption of BZ dissolved in propylene glycol yields, after a latent period of up to 24 hours, serum levels approximately 5 to 10% of those achieved with intravenous or intramuscular administration.
Following absorption, BZ is systemically distributed to most organs and biological tissues of the body. Its ability to reach synapses and neuromuscular and neuroglandular junctions throughout the body is responsible for its PNS effects, whereas its ability to cross the blood–brain barrier confers upon it the ability to cause CNS effects. Atropine and hyoscyamine both cross the placenta and can be found in small quantities in breast milk; whether this is also true for BZ is unclear.
Metabolism of BZ would be expected to occur primarily in the liver, with elimination of unchanged agent and metabolites chiefly in the urine.
In the field the only immediate indications of its use may be the white smoke emanating from delivered weapons. Though detection methods have been developed for BZ, these have not been standardized for field use and are limited to laboratory analysis or specialized monitoring in industrial facilities.
Protection from BZ means blocking it from entry into the body. At dosages adequate for a lung effect there is little risk of absorption through the skin or contact hazards from aerosols that have settled out onto surfaces. The amount of BZ that may settle out on surfaces from an aerosol is too small to represent a hazard from secondary aerosols. Therefore, the most appropriate protective response is to don a protective mask with a good quality aerosol filter. Even improvised respiratory protection (e.g., several folded pieces of cloth over the nose and mouth) may render BZ employment ineffectual.
There is the possibility that BZ could be employed for a skin effect by adding to a skin penetrating solvent, or used for a secondary aerosol through contaminating terrain with bulk micro-pulverized BZ. However, both of these employment schemes are unlikely owing to the high cost and uncontrolled dose (potentially lethal). In any situation where BZ is present in liquid or bulk powder form, adequate skin protection with impermeable protective clothing and gloves is warranted.
-- Jytdog ( talk) 11:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-trace-of-western-made-nerve-agent-seen-in-uk-samples/2018/04/14/c76a8b30-3ff7-11e8-955b-7d2e19b79966_story.html http://www.dw.com/en/russias-sergey-lavrov-claims-sergei-skripal-was-poisoned-with-western-bz-nerve-agent/a-43390589 https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/04/14/world/europe/14reuters-britain-russia-skripal-lavrov.html https://twitter.com/SpiezLab/status/985243574123057152 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.154.69.215 ( talk) 04:40, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
It's possible that BZ was administered as an antidote, which would account for traces of it appearing in the blood samples. It's chemically very similar to atropine, the more familiar treatment for nerve-agent poisoning, but much more powerful. Because it counters the effect of Novichok, it could not have been part of the actual chemical weapon. This would explain why it did not figure in the final report, since the OPCW's task was to identify the weapon. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 16:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)