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On 22 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Oso landslide. The result of the discussion was Moved to 2014 Oso landslide. |
Should the article contain material about the property dispute and murder following the landslide?— Gorthian ( talk) Reopening: 01:57, 31 October 2016 (UTC); originally opened 23:53, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
The discussion just above is pertinent, and the disputed edit is here. — Gorthian ( talk) 23:59, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
I am curious about VQuakr's statement that: "The contentious and bitter nature of the compulsory purchases following the slide are a key characteristic of the aftermath."
Are there any sources that discuss these 'contentious and bitter, compulsory' purchases? Could more of this information be included in the article?
JerryRussell (
talk) 01:11, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Another FA, Senghenydd colliery disaster, has a somewhat narrower scope, yet still goes into detail on the aftermath of the explosion, noting what became of some of the principals in the events, the longer terms social effects, and media depictions in film and plays, and memorials observed a century later. Yet another FA, SS Arctic disaster tells us the fate of the ship's captain, the eventual fates of other ships involved, the shipping line, and so on. Again, not strictly limited to the event itself.
This is the norm for Featured Articles. Other examples include Zong massacre, Gunpowder Plot, Rosewood massacre, 1740 Batavia massacre, 1907 Tiflis bank robbery and more. Our best articles follow threads begin in the original event and do not cut off the story because of some imagined rule.
Quality articles do stay focused and have limits on their scope, but the limits of what the community says are the very best Wikipedia articles are significantly broader than what is being claimed here. Ask yourself why WP:OFFTOPIC and WP:Germane and WP:Relevance are all only essays that have never had any of their ideas accepted in a guideline, let alone policy. The reason is the advice they offer is not helpful in getting us closer to what the community thinks our best articles should be. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:49, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
There are varying degrees of acceptance, and that determines the precedence. There's nothing wrong with citing an essay. But it carries less weight than a guideline, which in turn carries less weight than a policy. Violating a policy is a more urgent matter than ignoring the advice of an essay. WP:CANTFIX lists the policies showing the only cases where content must be removed. WP:editing policy trumps any essay or advice page. We have not named an accused, low profile person, respecting the WP:BLPCRIME policy.
When multiple policies apply, or multiple interpretations are possible, the example set by multiple FAs is a good guide as to how the broader community interprets policy. It's a mistake to assume that because an essay exists, it must have broad support. Essays that contradict policy are rarely deleted because it's easier to simply ignore them.-- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 22:07, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
There are different sources whose job it is to count victims. Insurance companies have their own criteria for what counts, and that determines whether a policy will pay out in a given case. FEMA has their rules for the scope of their aid. News media make their own choices -- for example, choosing to count the perpetrator and victims differently in a murder/suicide incident. It is not the job of Wikipedia editors to make a judgement as to how to count victims of anything; we report what our sources tell us. These opinions can be attributed to whoever voices them. They have nothing to do with the scope of a Wikipedia article.
A re-read of Wikipedia:Article titles might help here. Long titles like 2014 Oso mudslide and its aftermath are only necessary when there is a chance the article might be confused with some other 2014 Oso mudslide article. When there are no other articles with similar names, it isn't necessary or desirable to append all sorts of adjectives on the end of a title to cover its entire scope. Since we have only one 2014 Oso mudslide article, it can contain everything about the mudslide, and everything connected to it. Long 18th century book titles like Modern Seduction, Or Innocence Betrayed: Consisting Of Several Histories Of The Principal Magdalens, Received Into That Charity Since Its Establishment. Very Proper To Be Read By All Young Persons; As They Exhibit A Faithful Picture Of Those Arts Most Fatal To Youth And Innocence; And Of Those Miseries That Are The Never-Ending Consequences Of A Departure From Virtue have their charm, but we don't do it that way. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:01, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
I think we need to review the distinction between related (as in linking from or connected in some way) and relevant, which is more about the degree of relation (i.e., how closely related). When I opened this discussion I explicitly questioned the relevancy of the questioned material, whereas VQuakr's first response was that it is "pretty directed related
" (emphasis added). He subsequently added: 'Related means "standing in relation or connection."
'. And that has been the principal point of controversy.
That those favoring retaining this material insist that the murders are related to the landslide seems quite beside the point, as I don't believe anyone denies a connection. But so what? There are a LOT of connections. Like the long-time state employee that lost his job (see next section); it is connected - derives directly as a consequence of the slide - should it not also be included? How about the person whose car went off the road taking the detour - that is "connected", why shouldn't that be included? If there is no qualification of the degree of relatedness (connection), then, by this supposed rule of "relatedness", those examples should be included. The grotesqueness of doing so shows that we should consider the degree of relatedness. Which comes down to a matter of scope. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 21:04, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Whether you say related or relevant, there's no policy-based argument against including events that happened as a result of the mud slide. Citing the WP:OFFTOPIC section of the essay Writing better articles is just another way of saying "I think it's better like this than like that". Port Chicago disaster is perhaps the most extreme example of an artilce considered to be Wikipedia's best content that ignores that essayist's definition of "better". It describes not only the explosion, but the mutiny that was motivated by the explosion -- which is much like this case: a disaster triggered a major crime -- and then goes into detail in the trial of the mutineers, then goes on to recount the consequences of all that decades later. But there are many other FAs that also ignore that definition of "better", just as that essayist's opinions about redundancy are overruled by the guideline summary style. Lots of other FAs -- in fact every FA I could find about a disaster or wreck or catastrophe -- did indeed include events like major crimes, deaths, social changes, and more that happened as a consequence of the event.
So sure, we can take a vote to decide "I like it like this" vs "I like it like that", but this isn't an issue of policy or guidelines.
Although, just saying, I would kind of feel like is an NPOV problem to filter events of the degree of importance of murders based on whether they're "tawdry" or "tabloid" -- well-sourced things that makes us feel shame, pity, embarrassment that they even happened -- vs other events that are cheerful or would make polite dinner conversation. That kind of limit pre-judges content not on their sourcing, or their magnitude, but on how they make us feel, and we screen out tawdry murders because they're too Fargo (film)-ish, and we prefer not to think about the dark side of human behavior when thinking about the tragedy and heroism of the Oso mudslide.
By all means, vote to exclude it if you don't like it, but don't say policy or guidelines demand it. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
big deal" does not increase the relatedness of the events. The guy with the car was taking the unpaved detour as a direct result of the slide closing the main road. The direct motive for the murder (apparently) "
was retribution for the neighbors' reporting him for squatting at the property". Which followed the property's condemnation and purchase, which followed the slide. And I seem to recall there may have been bad feelings even prior to the slide.
we prefer not to think about the dark side of human behavior...", but you seem to have missed that " tabloid" (as in journalism) emphasizes sensational crime stories, etc. It is catering to the vicarious thrill of "the dark side of human behavior". To some of us inclusion of indirectly related crimes sensationalizes the slide, and disrespects those who died as a direct consequence of the slide. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 20:49, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Dennis, you wrote above: So sure, we can take a
vote to decide "I like it like this" vs "I like it like that", but this isn't an issue of policy or guidelines.
But the essay on voting says that we don't vote, we seek to establish a consensus. At this point, arguments have been presented passionately on both sides, mostly based on essays and other reflections on the contents of good encyclopedia articles, rather than any policy questions. The vote is running eight "no" to five "yes" at the moment. So if someone were to close this RfC right now (which would undoubtedly be too early), what would be the conclusion? Considering the unmitigated passion on both sides, I would be most comfortable arguing "No Consensus." And what happens if there's no consensus?
WP:NOCON policy says: In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it.
So is this a contentious issue related to BLP? I would say no, the contention is almost entirely about the relevance, not the BLP aspect. So since the material had been in the article a long time before the bold edit that led to this RFC, the result would be that the material is kept.
Considering that I am arguing on the "yes" side, to keep the material, far be it from me to take it on myself to close the discussion. But I am curious if other editors have any thoughts on how this discussion ought to be closed. JerryRussell ( talk) 17:27, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I read in today's Seattle Times that a longtime employee of the Washington Attorney General's Office has lost his job as a result of the Oso slide. If we are going to cover all of the "aftermath" events shouldn't this be included? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk)
All the material I could find about the memorial avenue describes the trees as "cedar", which is where I linked the new section. This change specifically links to Cedrus, but the trees look like Cupressaceae to me. Cedrus isn't native to the PNW, either. Admittedly it's surprising that anyone would plant Western Red or Port Orford (=Lawson Cypress) so close together. Can anyone point to an authoritative source? David Brooks ( talk) 16:33, 18 August 2017 (UTC) ETA: I should have put that more strongly. They are clearly not Cedrus. David Brooks ( talk) 16:38, 18 Auguszt 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Possible changes to the article text to illustrate the differences between types of flows and slides are outside the scope of this close, and discussion or implementation of those points can continue as necessary. Dekimasu よ! 22:20, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
2014 Oso mudslide → 2014 Oso landslide – The term "mudslide" is a misnomer for a mudflow. As has been discussed on the mudflow article, the term mudlisde is a misnomer for a mudflow, and that article was moved accordingly. We should not use such a term for this event if it generally not used by geologists. The text of this article even refers to it as landslide. TornadoLGS ( talk) 21:39, 22 December 2018 (UTC) TornadoLGS ( talk) 21:46, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
I'd support a move if there were compelling evidence that "Oso landslide" is the more common term -- from what I can tell, mudslide isn't overwhelmingly more common, but it is clearly more common and has precedence. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 22:21, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
"mudslide" is a misnomer for a mudflow" does not justify changing "mudslide → landslide". Additionally, the proposer is skipping over this quite superficially, without due diligence in searching out previous discussion of this point, so he has missed Bejnar's comment that "mudslide" "
is the vernacular." And it has not been shown that we have any problem with that. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 00:22, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached". If you agree to not doing the move, and no one else chimes in otherwise, then presumably there is consensus to not do the move, and after the 29th the discussion can be closed (see the instructions). ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 02:40, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
A major landslide occurred ..." ‒ then explain how upon hitting the river it morphed into a mudflow that ran across the valley. To merely say that it is "also known as ..." seems weak; better to explain why it has this dual character. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 20:50, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to 2014 Oso landslide. There is no consensus to remove the year from the title, while there is a consensus that landslide is the common term used for this event. – robertsky ( talk) 12:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
2014 Oso mudslide → Oso landslide – The event's common name, based on long-term coverage from The Seattle Times ( this 2024 article for example) as well as government documents from the Department of Natural Resources. Sounder Bruce 17:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. asilvering ( talk) 22:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 04:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2014 Oso landslide article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on March 22, 2019 and March 22, 2023. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
On 22 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Oso landslide. The result of the discussion was Moved to 2014 Oso landslide. |
Should the article contain material about the property dispute and murder following the landslide?— Gorthian ( talk) Reopening: 01:57, 31 October 2016 (UTC); originally opened 23:53, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
The discussion just above is pertinent, and the disputed edit is here. — Gorthian ( talk) 23:59, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
I am curious about VQuakr's statement that: "The contentious and bitter nature of the compulsory purchases following the slide are a key characteristic of the aftermath."
Are there any sources that discuss these 'contentious and bitter, compulsory' purchases? Could more of this information be included in the article?
JerryRussell (
talk) 01:11, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Another FA, Senghenydd colliery disaster, has a somewhat narrower scope, yet still goes into detail on the aftermath of the explosion, noting what became of some of the principals in the events, the longer terms social effects, and media depictions in film and plays, and memorials observed a century later. Yet another FA, SS Arctic disaster tells us the fate of the ship's captain, the eventual fates of other ships involved, the shipping line, and so on. Again, not strictly limited to the event itself.
This is the norm for Featured Articles. Other examples include Zong massacre, Gunpowder Plot, Rosewood massacre, 1740 Batavia massacre, 1907 Tiflis bank robbery and more. Our best articles follow threads begin in the original event and do not cut off the story because of some imagined rule.
Quality articles do stay focused and have limits on their scope, but the limits of what the community says are the very best Wikipedia articles are significantly broader than what is being claimed here. Ask yourself why WP:OFFTOPIC and WP:Germane and WP:Relevance are all only essays that have never had any of their ideas accepted in a guideline, let alone policy. The reason is the advice they offer is not helpful in getting us closer to what the community thinks our best articles should be. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:49, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
There are varying degrees of acceptance, and that determines the precedence. There's nothing wrong with citing an essay. But it carries less weight than a guideline, which in turn carries less weight than a policy. Violating a policy is a more urgent matter than ignoring the advice of an essay. WP:CANTFIX lists the policies showing the only cases where content must be removed. WP:editing policy trumps any essay or advice page. We have not named an accused, low profile person, respecting the WP:BLPCRIME policy.
When multiple policies apply, or multiple interpretations are possible, the example set by multiple FAs is a good guide as to how the broader community interprets policy. It's a mistake to assume that because an essay exists, it must have broad support. Essays that contradict policy are rarely deleted because it's easier to simply ignore them.-- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 22:07, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
There are different sources whose job it is to count victims. Insurance companies have their own criteria for what counts, and that determines whether a policy will pay out in a given case. FEMA has their rules for the scope of their aid. News media make their own choices -- for example, choosing to count the perpetrator and victims differently in a murder/suicide incident. It is not the job of Wikipedia editors to make a judgement as to how to count victims of anything; we report what our sources tell us. These opinions can be attributed to whoever voices them. They have nothing to do with the scope of a Wikipedia article.
A re-read of Wikipedia:Article titles might help here. Long titles like 2014 Oso mudslide and its aftermath are only necessary when there is a chance the article might be confused with some other 2014 Oso mudslide article. When there are no other articles with similar names, it isn't necessary or desirable to append all sorts of adjectives on the end of a title to cover its entire scope. Since we have only one 2014 Oso mudslide article, it can contain everything about the mudslide, and everything connected to it. Long 18th century book titles like Modern Seduction, Or Innocence Betrayed: Consisting Of Several Histories Of The Principal Magdalens, Received Into That Charity Since Its Establishment. Very Proper To Be Read By All Young Persons; As They Exhibit A Faithful Picture Of Those Arts Most Fatal To Youth And Innocence; And Of Those Miseries That Are The Never-Ending Consequences Of A Departure From Virtue have their charm, but we don't do it that way. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:01, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
I think we need to review the distinction between related (as in linking from or connected in some way) and relevant, which is more about the degree of relation (i.e., how closely related). When I opened this discussion I explicitly questioned the relevancy of the questioned material, whereas VQuakr's first response was that it is "pretty directed related
" (emphasis added). He subsequently added: 'Related means "standing in relation or connection."
'. And that has been the principal point of controversy.
That those favoring retaining this material insist that the murders are related to the landslide seems quite beside the point, as I don't believe anyone denies a connection. But so what? There are a LOT of connections. Like the long-time state employee that lost his job (see next section); it is connected - derives directly as a consequence of the slide - should it not also be included? How about the person whose car went off the road taking the detour - that is "connected", why shouldn't that be included? If there is no qualification of the degree of relatedness (connection), then, by this supposed rule of "relatedness", those examples should be included. The grotesqueness of doing so shows that we should consider the degree of relatedness. Which comes down to a matter of scope. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 21:04, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Whether you say related or relevant, there's no policy-based argument against including events that happened as a result of the mud slide. Citing the WP:OFFTOPIC section of the essay Writing better articles is just another way of saying "I think it's better like this than like that". Port Chicago disaster is perhaps the most extreme example of an artilce considered to be Wikipedia's best content that ignores that essayist's definition of "better". It describes not only the explosion, but the mutiny that was motivated by the explosion -- which is much like this case: a disaster triggered a major crime -- and then goes into detail in the trial of the mutineers, then goes on to recount the consequences of all that decades later. But there are many other FAs that also ignore that definition of "better", just as that essayist's opinions about redundancy are overruled by the guideline summary style. Lots of other FAs -- in fact every FA I could find about a disaster or wreck or catastrophe -- did indeed include events like major crimes, deaths, social changes, and more that happened as a consequence of the event.
So sure, we can take a vote to decide "I like it like this" vs "I like it like that", but this isn't an issue of policy or guidelines.
Although, just saying, I would kind of feel like is an NPOV problem to filter events of the degree of importance of murders based on whether they're "tawdry" or "tabloid" -- well-sourced things that makes us feel shame, pity, embarrassment that they even happened -- vs other events that are cheerful or would make polite dinner conversation. That kind of limit pre-judges content not on their sourcing, or their magnitude, but on how they make us feel, and we screen out tawdry murders because they're too Fargo (film)-ish, and we prefer not to think about the dark side of human behavior when thinking about the tragedy and heroism of the Oso mudslide.
By all means, vote to exclude it if you don't like it, but don't say policy or guidelines demand it. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
big deal" does not increase the relatedness of the events. The guy with the car was taking the unpaved detour as a direct result of the slide closing the main road. The direct motive for the murder (apparently) "
was retribution for the neighbors' reporting him for squatting at the property". Which followed the property's condemnation and purchase, which followed the slide. And I seem to recall there may have been bad feelings even prior to the slide.
we prefer not to think about the dark side of human behavior...", but you seem to have missed that " tabloid" (as in journalism) emphasizes sensational crime stories, etc. It is catering to the vicarious thrill of "the dark side of human behavior". To some of us inclusion of indirectly related crimes sensationalizes the slide, and disrespects those who died as a direct consequence of the slide. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 20:49, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Dennis, you wrote above: So sure, we can take a
vote to decide "I like it like this" vs "I like it like that", but this isn't an issue of policy or guidelines.
But the essay on voting says that we don't vote, we seek to establish a consensus. At this point, arguments have been presented passionately on both sides, mostly based on essays and other reflections on the contents of good encyclopedia articles, rather than any policy questions. The vote is running eight "no" to five "yes" at the moment. So if someone were to close this RfC right now (which would undoubtedly be too early), what would be the conclusion? Considering the unmitigated passion on both sides, I would be most comfortable arguing "No Consensus." And what happens if there's no consensus?
WP:NOCON policy says: In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it.
So is this a contentious issue related to BLP? I would say no, the contention is almost entirely about the relevance, not the BLP aspect. So since the material had been in the article a long time before the bold edit that led to this RFC, the result would be that the material is kept.
Considering that I am arguing on the "yes" side, to keep the material, far be it from me to take it on myself to close the discussion. But I am curious if other editors have any thoughts on how this discussion ought to be closed. JerryRussell ( talk) 17:27, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I read in today's Seattle Times that a longtime employee of the Washington Attorney General's Office has lost his job as a result of the Oso slide. If we are going to cover all of the "aftermath" events shouldn't this be included? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk)
All the material I could find about the memorial avenue describes the trees as "cedar", which is where I linked the new section. This change specifically links to Cedrus, but the trees look like Cupressaceae to me. Cedrus isn't native to the PNW, either. Admittedly it's surprising that anyone would plant Western Red or Port Orford (=Lawson Cypress) so close together. Can anyone point to an authoritative source? David Brooks ( talk) 16:33, 18 August 2017 (UTC) ETA: I should have put that more strongly. They are clearly not Cedrus. David Brooks ( talk) 16:38, 18 Auguszt 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Possible changes to the article text to illustrate the differences between types of flows and slides are outside the scope of this close, and discussion or implementation of those points can continue as necessary. Dekimasu よ! 22:20, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
2014 Oso mudslide → 2014 Oso landslide – The term "mudslide" is a misnomer for a mudflow. As has been discussed on the mudflow article, the term mudlisde is a misnomer for a mudflow, and that article was moved accordingly. We should not use such a term for this event if it generally not used by geologists. The text of this article even refers to it as landslide. TornadoLGS ( talk) 21:39, 22 December 2018 (UTC) TornadoLGS ( talk) 21:46, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
I'd support a move if there were compelling evidence that "Oso landslide" is the more common term -- from what I can tell, mudslide isn't overwhelmingly more common, but it is clearly more common and has precedence. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 22:21, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
"mudslide" is a misnomer for a mudflow" does not justify changing "mudslide → landslide". Additionally, the proposer is skipping over this quite superficially, without due diligence in searching out previous discussion of this point, so he has missed Bejnar's comment that "mudslide" "
is the vernacular." And it has not been shown that we have any problem with that. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 00:22, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached". If you agree to not doing the move, and no one else chimes in otherwise, then presumably there is consensus to not do the move, and after the 29th the discussion can be closed (see the instructions). ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 02:40, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
A major landslide occurred ..." ‒ then explain how upon hitting the river it morphed into a mudflow that ran across the valley. To merely say that it is "also known as ..." seems weak; better to explain why it has this dual character. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 20:50, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to 2014 Oso landslide. There is no consensus to remove the year from the title, while there is a consensus that landslide is the common term used for this event. – robertsky ( talk) 12:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
2014 Oso mudslide → Oso landslide – The event's common name, based on long-term coverage from The Seattle Times ( this 2024 article for example) as well as government documents from the Department of Natural Resources. Sounder Bruce 17:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. asilvering ( talk) 22:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 04:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)