This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
|
The article needs to be rewritten, I suggest to write first an introduction, followed by the israeli reaction and allegations of antisemetism, then the swedish government reaction -- Osm agha ( talk) 22:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
The "newspapers from Iran and Syria are not RS. Those quotes you provided are worse then the Swedish newspaper.Unfortunately this is another example of the blood libel that are spread in certain "free" coutries.
I have to get rid of this garbage. If you object we will go to the outside opinion for feedback-- Rm125 ( talk) 11:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Mistake. I didn't chech the sourse. The sourse is fine- nojustification to erase- take my words back, still checking -- Rm125 ( talk) 11:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Everything is OK but Al Aharam must go - this is not RS. It is funny given the fact that RSes spread the same garbage. There is important difference though. You have to present the garbage anyway to put it on the table, otherwise even more conspiracy theories will be invented. However Al Aharam link gives the appearance as a respectable paper which is not true. What do you think, Tiamut? -- Rm125 ( talk) 12:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Well I noticed this quote in the article:
"During an interview with Al-Jazeera in 2002, late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat accused Israel of murdering Palestinian children and harvesting their organs for transplant operations. "They murder our kids and use their organs as spare parts. Why is the whole world silent? Israel takes advantage of this silence to escalate its oppression and terror against our people," said an angry Arafat"
What do you personally think about this quote? -- Rm125 ( talk) 12:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
If you ask me I personally believe he says that ( of course my personal opinion doesn;t count here) however the quote is almoust identical to the article we are talking about. This is the same type of occusation no more and no less.Your question is if it acceptible or unecceptable. Depends on intentions.If it is to promote the blood libel it is one thing but if you put it against another opinion-this is completely different. Intention. This is what is important. -- Rm125 ( talk) 12:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to put this article up for AfD. It seems to be a huge article focused on a small recent event. If and when the allegations are substantiated and the story is shown to have impact on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, we can then create an article about it. Otherwise it seems to be just a case of WP:RECENT. Can I hear a few preliminary voices before sending this to AfD? Joe407 ( talk) 11:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
The lede included some opinions and theories promoted by some unnotable freelance journalist Jonathon Cook. Per WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE its being removed. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
This article should probably be updated based on some of the more recent reports, particularly the section on Aftonbladet's response. I've just added some of this to the lead, but the rest of the article seems pretty dated. That may be because this is a "tempest in a tea cup" that will tend to lose attention, but the recent claims are clearly relevant. Here is Aftonbladet's update, which is reported on by Haaretz here. Here is a direct report from Haaretz on the jailing of the two Haifa men, and here is a little summary with Hiss. The piece from Jonathan Cook is here. Here is something in The Forward. I don't think I'll have time to update the rest of the article, but perhaps these will help anyone looking to do so. Mackan79 ( talk) 23:58, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm looking through some of these reports. One aspect of the coverage I find interesting is how the different newspapers are dealing with the AP report, and the idea that Aftonbladet claimed Israel was killing Palestinians for their organs. For example, the New York Times states this to have been Aftonbladet's claim ("The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic, who released it because of a huge controversy last summer over an allegation by a Swedish newspaper that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs. Israel hotly denied the charge."), [1] while Al Jazeera is more legalistic ("In August the Aftonbladet newspaper ran an article alleging that the Israeli army had stolen body organs from Palestinian men after killing them."). [2] I heard a radio report today on NPR that was more like the New York Times. In looking at the article, Al Jazeera is clearly more accurate. From the translation here:
It seems a stretch to call this an allegation from Aftonbladet that it happened. I see now a statement attributed to Nancy Sheppard-Hughes, the professor who released the interview with Hiss, in Aftonbladet's most recent update, [3] which states via Google translate: "Many people who heard about the article understood it, according to Sheppard-Hughes, erroneously as Israeli army killing of Palestinians to access their [organs]. What happened on Kabirinstitutet was bad enough as it was and hit all kinds of people, not just Palestinians, she says." [4] I am not sure anything specifically needs to be changed at the moment, but it suggests this may be something editors here need to navigate. Someone said in an edit summary that Aftonbladet specifically denied making that claim, so I am curious if that comes up as well. Mackan79 ( talk) 07:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
To answer my own question, I see that the culture editor of Aftonbladet addresses the point in an update here. Via Google translate, which I had to touch up: [5]
This was noted in the rival paper Sydsvenskan's response: [6]
I think this is a pretty accurate translation for anyone else to check if they like, and might suggest material to address the whole confusion about what Aftonbladet said and the reaction to it. Mackan79 ( talk) 05:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
A broader article including this topic was just started, which I then moved to its creator's userspace here: User:Yamanam/2009_Israel_organ_controversy. I'm not 100% sure what's the best way to go about this, but it seemed that if others were interested in working on such an article they could do so there. I could see such an article coming to include this article as one part, probably more likely than ending up with two separate articles, but I think that may take a little time to see. This is just to let others know of its existence. Mackan79 ( talk) 09:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
According to this article ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs ) Israel has now confirmed to harvested organs from dead Palestinians, without the consent of their families till 1990s. 84.147.195.146 ( talk) 16:48, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't a separate article about "Organ harvesting in Israel" be created? -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 20:25, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, a political controversy about a newspaper article is neither a disease nor a treatment. WPMED hereby declines to consider this article as within its scope.
If any WPMED member has a different opinion, please feel free to contact me at WP:MEDA. In the meantime, non-members are reminded that they cannot legitimately demand that any WikiProject support any article. WikiProject tagging is not categorization, and projects have absolute authority over their scope. Please therefore do not re-tag this article as being within the scope of this project. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 20:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Ive read the Aftonbladet article many times and it never suggests that anyone is killed BECAUSE anyone wants to take his organs. This claim was NEVER mentioned in Sweden (were the original article was easy available for everyone) until after Israel admitted to the organ thefts. And as all of us knows, there is no need for extra killings to get fresh young bodies in Palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.249.145 ( talk) 13:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I have moved the following paragraph to second in the lede, from last, in an attempt to balance the article.
In December 2009, Israel admitted there had been organ harvesting of skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from dead bodies of Palestinians, Israeli soldiers and citizens and foreign workers, without permission from relatives, in the 1990s, but that this practice no longer occurred. [1] [2] [3]
93.96.148.42 ( talk)
Today Aftonbladet publisches an article about what would be an ultimate admission of guilt. They have replaced the director of the Coroners office(?), and the new director, Chen Kugel, writes to Donald Boström: "Du kan säga att du bidragit till denna förändring genom att rapportera om situationen”. "You can state that you have contributed to this change by repporting about the situation". The article is here http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article16430325.ab . I am not qualified enough to know where and what to write in the text. (the text is really a mess with repeting same things on more than one place) Maybe someone with better knowledge in english can do it? It would also be good with a engish source.
I also think this wiki-article gives to much importance to what other swedish newspapers are saying, Aftonbladet is the only major newspaper in Sweden that are left leaning, and also the only one that are pro-palestinian. All the others are sionistic (well, Svenska Dagbladet (conservative) are sionistic on the editorial, but balanced in the paper). This makes that they are taking every chance they get to attac Aftonbladet... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Växelhäxan ( talk • contribs) 10:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
References
As far as I can see it does not, so I have removed it from the lede, and posted it here.
Boström later said in an event in Israel that he had reconsidered his views on the article, that he had no proof other than allegations of Palestinians, and that he would have written the article differently if done again. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127720.html 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 01:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
It's been suggested in edits to the article that the point about press freedom is "trivial." In fact this point has been central to the Swedish response, specifically that it would violate the Swedish Constitution for government officials to criticize an article. We discuss this in the article, but it's seen for instance here where the Swedish Prime Minister states, as we quote him, that "[w]e cannot be asked by anyone to contravene the Swedish constitution, and this is something we will also not do within the European Union." Others disagreed and said that they could perhaps have criticized it to some extent, but we need to be clear that this was a discussion of the Swedish Constitution, not just an appeal to the principle of free press. Mackan79 ( talk) 02:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the initial article's claims, and whether it stated that Palestinians were being killed for the sake of taking their organs, this has been discussed some above. My view remains that while some have attributed this claim to the article, the fact that the author and others contend that it did not claim this means that the point is disputed, and accordingly per WP:NPOV that we can present reliable sources, but we cannot ourselves take a position on the matter. I'm fairly certain I have seen the author, Aftonbladet's culture editor, and Nancy Scheper-Hughes all dispute that the article makes this claim. I don't have all of these in front of me, but the article we cite is this follow up in Aftonbladet, which states: "Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon." Via Google Translate, "Many people who heard about the article understood it, according to Sheppard-Hughes, erroneously as Israeli army killing of Palestinians to access their services. What happened on Kabirinstitutet was bad enough as it was and hit all kinds of people, not just Palestinians, she says." I don't recall if I have read her statement independently, but it seems clear enough that when the author and the publication dispute the point then that alone is a reliable statement that certainly we cannot disregard. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I am concerned that recent changes to the lead have been problematic. One in particular has the third paragraph now as follows:
As an initial issue, I do not see how the first sentence here is appropriate. Having followed the dispute, the changes seems generally to be highlighting the very most controversial things that people have said, as if this has been the general response on the issue. Certainly there have been some comparisons to blood libels, and there was some very strong criticism of the Israeli response. Most of the sources did not respond primarily by asserting that the article was a blood libel, however, and even most sources that criticized the article did not call it a blood libel. To write this as if it was the predominant response thus does not accurately reflect the general commentary on the issue. Even as a factual matter, I do not see where several congresspersons said that it was a blood libel. I edited this to state that the Israeli government and several congresspersons "condemned" the article, which I believe is the more accurate statement. The edit was undone, so I have raised it here. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Associated Press, United Press International, CNN, ABC News, BBC News, The Guardian and others say it did. If there is a significant minority of reliable secondary saying it didn't, we can say the matter is disputed. In the meantime, not a single one has been presented. Jalapenos do exist ( talk) 22:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Several of the sources say that the article made this claim, in most cases by using the AP story. Al Jazeera uses the same story, but without that specific claim. [7] So, I think there is evidence of a difference in the reporting on this point. We could explain the difference, although it would mostly be original research. I don't think there is any significant discussion of the point in reliable sources, besides the newspaper's and Scheper-Hughes' denial that it made the claim. One Swedish source said that despite the denial this was just the "evidence chain" that Bostrom painted up, which I believe I quoted above. Otherwise it's just a point for us to be aware of in reporting, I think. We could note that following the December story, several news outlets reported that Aftonbladet had initially claimed that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to take their organs, although Bostrom, Aftonbladet, and Scheper-Hughes denied that the article made this claim. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, if editors wish to highlight the most controversial aspects of the article in order to explain the Israeli response, they should keep in mind that Aftonbladet also claimed vindication with the later stories. In that regard, I think it would be hard to deny that the article is primarily focused on the fact that Palestinians disappeared and they were returned without their organs. It isn't for us to gloss the basic claims and focus only on those points where the sentiment remains that the article went too far. If the article went too far, that's just one part of the story. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I just removed the statement that the article did make this claim that Israel had been killing Palestinians for the purpose of stealing their organs, which I hadn't seen was added. The fact is that even Sydsvkenskan, the rival Swedish paper that sharply criticized the article, does not say that the article made this claim, but rather argues that the article implied it. My Swedish is well out of practice, but I believe the translation I provided above via Google Translate is accurate:
See Google's version here (the fact that "Hiss," as in Dr. Yehuda Hiss, in Swedish means "elevator" may be especially confusing). The point is that, other than Bostrom, Aftonbladet, and Scheper-Hughes, all of whom deny that the article made the claim, this is the only source I'm aware of that actually looks at the issue. The others (all based on one AP story, as far as I am aware) summarize the story in a way that attributes this claim to the story, but only in passing and without any discussion. This does give us material to discuss the issue, I think, but certainly not to state categorically that the article made the claim despite Bostrom's denial. Mackan79 ( talk) 06:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
The Haaretz article attributes to Bostrom: "Like for example that they say I wrote that the soldiers hunted for youths so as to take their organs. It's obvious that's a lie." That seems quite clearly a denial that he made the claim we are discussing here. Mackan79 ( talk) 07:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
You seem all to have missed the crucial point: the article did not claim that anyone was killed for the purpose of harvesting organs, because the article does not claim that any organs were harvested at all. It claimed merely that there are indications that this had happened, and that the matter should be investigated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.7.82 ( talk) 04:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
References
ghiss
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).apk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).upik
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).bbck
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).cnnk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).itk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).hk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).jpk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).gur
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Mackan deleted part of this paragraph with the comment "This is not the place for us to pick out what we think is the most controversial thing in the article, even if this were accurate". Since this (Wikipedia) article is not about the Aftonbladet article but about the controversy surrounding the Aftonbladet article, of course we should point out the most controversial parts of it. Why else would we even have the second paragraph be about the article, if not to clarify what the controversy was about? As for the accuracy issue, but this is the removed sentence:
It also featured allegations that Israel deprived living Palestinians of their organs before killing them.
and this is the quote from the article on which I based the sentence:
I then travelled around interviewing a great number of Palestininan families in the West Bank and Gaza – meeting parents who told of how their sons had been deprived of organs before being killed.
What's the problem? Jalapenos do exist ( talk) 01:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
While the campaign was running, young Palestinian men started to disappear from villages in the West Bank and Gaza. After five days Israeli soldiers would bring them back dead, with their bodies ripped open. --{Here is one accusation}
The person they were assigned to put out of action was Bilal Achmed Ghanan, one of the stone-throwing Palestinian youngsters who made life difficult for the Israeli soldiers.-- {They are just "youngsters" who merely throw stones, and soldiers are assigned to kill them}
Together with other stone-throwing boys he hid in the Nablus mountains, with no roof over his head. Getting caught meant torture and death for these boys – they had to stay in the mountains at all costs.-- {just a youngster, a boy with no roof no home, to be killed by Israeli soldiers (like the dogs they are) (that is the implication)}
On May 13 Bilal made an exception, when for some reason, he walked unprotected past the carpentry workshop. Not even Talal, his older brother, knows why he took this risk. Maybe the boys were out of food and needed to restock. --{the boys were hungry, and had no home, just because they threw stones at the Israelis}
Everything went according to plan for the Israeli special force. The soldiers stubbed their cigarettes, put away their cans of Coca-Cola, and calmly aimed through the broken window. When Bilal was close enough they needed only to pull the triggers. The first shot hit him in the chest. According to villagers who witnessed the incident he was subsequently shot with one bullet in each leg. Two soldiers then ran down from the carpentry workshop and shot Bilal once in the stomach. {The killing plan went well for the Israelis. They were not out of food or without a roof or home. They had cans of Coke and plenty of cigarettes. The Israelis shot the boy in cold blood, in the chest and in the stomach, as well as the legs. It is not clear why they would shoot in such vital organs if they were planning to use the organs but that's another question for another time}
Together with the sharp noises from the shovels we could hear laughter from the soldiers who, as they waited to go home, exchanged some jokes. As Bilal was put in the grave his chest was uncovered. Suddenly it became clear to the few people present just what kind of abuse the boy had been exposed to. Bilal was not by far the first young Palestinian to be buried with a slit from his abdomen up to his chin. {The soldiers laugh and joke as the villagers bury the dead youngster. For them it is nothing. This is "far from the first." There are many questions that are unanswered here, not the least of which is why the military would return these boys at all. No sources are given in this article or for the accusations made in this story. Inferences are drawn and stories are told. I think to call this pulp fiction is to do a kindness to the story.} What is wrong with this analysis? That is how I read it. Stellarkid ( talk) 06:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
It is almost impossible to misunderstand what "example" hints at in the Swedish original but neither Aftonbladet nor Tlaxcala gives that sentence justice in their translations so... laugh on. The original article states "Ett av de exempel jag träffade på under denna kusliga resa var den unge stenkastaren Bilal Achmed Ghanan." Both Tlaxcala and Aftonbladet translate that into "One example that I encountered on this eerie trip was the young stone-thrower Bilal Achmed Ghanan." But that is not entirely correct. Google translate does a somewhat better work with beginning of the sentence when it produce "One of the examples I came across during this spooky trip was the young stone author Bilal Ahmed Ghanian." Personally, I would translate the sentence to "One of the examples I encountered during this eerie journey was the young stown-thrower Bilal Ahmed Ghanian." The translators at Tlaxcala and Aftonbladet might have been confused by the fact that "exempel" is not inflicted in Swedish, but is in English. To fit the singular form "example", maybe they omitted "of the" to correct the English grammar. Nevertheless, as it should be "examples" in plural the sentence is only related to what is said before, not "one example of" what is said right before. And the following story could in fact be something quite different, albeit related to organ theft. Steinberger ( talk) 09:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I'll post on the Swedish Wikiproject a request to translate the following paragraphs.
It took that a while to have the last two excerpts translated, so I did it myself. I know that Jalapenos thinks that I am biased in favor for Aftonbladet, but I reckon that it is easier to persuade some third party to critically review my translation then to have them making it from scratch. So I hereby encourage every Swedish-speaking user who sees this to read and correct my translations (the latter two from Aftonbladet) so that they are as correct as possible and that they don't make what they say any greater then it is. Steinberger ( talk) 05:31, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Original: "Intervjun med Hiss gjordes för nio år sedan men idag bekräftar israelisk militär att organstölder förekommit där hornhinnor, hjärtklaffar, hud och ben tagits från döda israeler (civila såväl som militärer), palestinier och gästarbetare.
Detta verkar ge Aftonbladet och Donald Boström rätt till hälften när han i en uppmärksammad artikel i somras menade att Israel stjäl organ från palestinier som man sedan dödar. I gårdagens Aftonbladet beklagar kulturchefen Åsa Linderborg att hon inte ”gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ”, men det var ju just den indiciekedjan Boström målade upp: organbrist i USA och Israel, organstöld i Israel, dödade och uppsprättade palestinier i Gaza." [9]
Translation: The interview with Hiss was done nine years ago, but today Israeli military confirms that organ theft have occurred where corneas, heart valves, skin and bone have been taken from dead Israelis (both civilian and military), Palestinians and guest workers.
This seem to give Aftonbladet and Donald Boström half right when he in a noticed article this summer implied that Israel steals organs from Palestianians that are later killed. In yesterday's Aftonbladet the head of culture Åsa Linderborg regrets that she has not "made it clearer that the Israeli army not shoots Palestinians with the intent to harvest organs", but that was the chain of indices Boström painted: organ shortage in USA and Israel, organ theft in Israel, killed and opened Palestinians in Gaza.
Discussion:
Original: "Israeliska myndigheter förnekade kraftfullt anklagelserna och israeliska befattningshavare kallade artikeln för 'antisemitisk'.
Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon:
– Men symboliken i att ta hud från den befolkning som uppfattas som fienden, och använda huden för den egna militären ... det är något som just på grund av dess symbolik är värt att fundera över, säger Nancy Sheppard-Hughes." [10]
Translation:
"Israeli authorities forcefully denied the accusations and Israeli officials called the article 'anti-semitic'.
Many of those who heard about he article perceived it, according to Sheppard-Huges, falsely as if the Israeli army killed Palestinians to get at their organs. What happened at the [Abu] Kabir institute was bad enough as it was and it affected all kinds of humans, not only Palestinians, she said:
- But the symbolism of taking skin from the population that is perceived as the enemy, and use the skin for it's own military ... that is something that just because of its symbolism of it that is worth tinking about, said Nancy Sheppard-Hughes."
Discussion:
Original: "När jag läser artikeln i efterhand kan jag begripa dem som inte förstår hur sommarens organskandal i New Jersey skulle ha att göra med de händelser Boström bevittnade för 17 år sedan på Västbanken och sedan dess försökt engagera världen i. New Jersey med sina israeliska kopplingar var en möjlighet för Boström att aktualisera och uppmärksamma samma brott som engagerat honom ända sedan han första gången skrev om dem i sin bok Inshallah.
För mig var det en självklarhet, men jag begriper om det inte var det för alla. Kanske borde vi även gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ, de tar organ när de dödat av andra skäl – skäl som världens mest moraliska armé alltid anser sig ha. Boström påstår heller inget annat och troligen är denna min själv kritik fåfäng; ockupationsmaktens medlöpare skulle ändå ljugit ihop och tjatat in sin tolkning." [11]
Translation: "Reading the article in retrospect, I can understand those who does not understand how this summers organ scandal in New Jersey would have any connection with the events that Boström witnessed 17 years ago. New Jersey with its Israeli connections was an opportunity for Boström to draw notice to and making the same crimes that have engaged him every since he for the first time wrote about them in his book Inshallah topical.
For me that was self-evident, but I understand if it wasn't for everyone. Maybe we should have made it even clearer that the Israeli army does not shoot Palestinians in order to steal their organs, they take organs when they have killed for other reasons - reasons the worlds most moral army always thinks they have. Neither does Boström claim otherwise and probably this my self-criticism is in vain; the accomplices of the occupation force would lie together and rub in their interpretation anyway. "
Discussion:
This article is probably not a reliable source, but it has a good selection of relevant references from reliable sources, for anyone wishing to improve the article. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/aw-organs2.html#notes 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 04:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Plot Spoiler is removing any mention of Yehuda Hiss from this article despite the obvious, common sense relevance of Hiss to this topic. Anyway, many sources make the connection; it took me 5 seconds to find Forward Magazine explicitly connecting the two here.
Please stop, PlotSpoiler, and establish consensus before gutting this article. Factsontheground ( talk) 10:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the following sentence, regarding Hiss's revelations, from the lede, as it is not supported by the body. The body states that the claim that the article claimed that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs is disputed by the authors, and publishers. Hence the sentence is not representative of the article, and inappropriate in the lede, unless it explains who made the claim. "There was nothing in the interview to substantiate the claim that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. [1] [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 05:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
References
ghiss
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This was removed: Israeli officials denounced the report at the time, labeling it "anti-Semitic," but did not comment on the specific allegations [1]
Are there specific objections to it? It seems to be WP:V and fairly notable. Unomi ( talk) 08:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Here is another source: http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=171732
The council and the commissioner’s office, “however unwittingly, helped to propagate an anti-Semitic libel by publishing [the EAFORD’s charges] as an official UN document,” wrote UN Watch Executive Director Hillel Neuer.
He called on the UN council and high commissioner to “immediately cease circulating this racist, hateful and inflammatory text to the ambassadors and other delegates of the UNHRC.”
Unomi ( talk) 09:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
It is the label by Israelis. We should not add anti-semitic category to the article only because of this. sicaspi ( talk) 14:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:05, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:38, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on 2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418673856&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418673856&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFullWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:08, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on 2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:30, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 8 external links on 2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251145125249&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804505720&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804476311&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251145167374&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFullWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:28, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
@ Repropo: The label conspiracy theory is controversial and thus that some people have called it a conspiracy theory is not sufficient. And fwiw, those who called it a conspiracy theory did so before the full extent of the scandal was well-known. Israeli doctors engaged in illicit organ harvesting which you can read about here: The Body of the Terrorist: Blood Libels, Bio-Piracy, and the Spoils of War at the Israeli Forensic Institute ImTheIP ( talk) 07:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Though sections 23-27 on this page indicate the article's page once had external links why aren't there any there at the moment? Mcljlm ( talk) 01:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
|
The article needs to be rewritten, I suggest to write first an introduction, followed by the israeli reaction and allegations of antisemetism, then the swedish government reaction -- Osm agha ( talk) 22:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
The "newspapers from Iran and Syria are not RS. Those quotes you provided are worse then the Swedish newspaper.Unfortunately this is another example of the blood libel that are spread in certain "free" coutries.
I have to get rid of this garbage. If you object we will go to the outside opinion for feedback-- Rm125 ( talk) 11:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Mistake. I didn't chech the sourse. The sourse is fine- nojustification to erase- take my words back, still checking -- Rm125 ( talk) 11:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Everything is OK but Al Aharam must go - this is not RS. It is funny given the fact that RSes spread the same garbage. There is important difference though. You have to present the garbage anyway to put it on the table, otherwise even more conspiracy theories will be invented. However Al Aharam link gives the appearance as a respectable paper which is not true. What do you think, Tiamut? -- Rm125 ( talk) 12:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Well I noticed this quote in the article:
"During an interview with Al-Jazeera in 2002, late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat accused Israel of murdering Palestinian children and harvesting their organs for transplant operations. "They murder our kids and use their organs as spare parts. Why is the whole world silent? Israel takes advantage of this silence to escalate its oppression and terror against our people," said an angry Arafat"
What do you personally think about this quote? -- Rm125 ( talk) 12:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
If you ask me I personally believe he says that ( of course my personal opinion doesn;t count here) however the quote is almoust identical to the article we are talking about. This is the same type of occusation no more and no less.Your question is if it acceptible or unecceptable. Depends on intentions.If it is to promote the blood libel it is one thing but if you put it against another opinion-this is completely different. Intention. This is what is important. -- Rm125 ( talk) 12:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to put this article up for AfD. It seems to be a huge article focused on a small recent event. If and when the allegations are substantiated and the story is shown to have impact on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, we can then create an article about it. Otherwise it seems to be just a case of WP:RECENT. Can I hear a few preliminary voices before sending this to AfD? Joe407 ( talk) 11:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
The lede included some opinions and theories promoted by some unnotable freelance journalist Jonathon Cook. Per WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE its being removed. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
This article should probably be updated based on some of the more recent reports, particularly the section on Aftonbladet's response. I've just added some of this to the lead, but the rest of the article seems pretty dated. That may be because this is a "tempest in a tea cup" that will tend to lose attention, but the recent claims are clearly relevant. Here is Aftonbladet's update, which is reported on by Haaretz here. Here is a direct report from Haaretz on the jailing of the two Haifa men, and here is a little summary with Hiss. The piece from Jonathan Cook is here. Here is something in The Forward. I don't think I'll have time to update the rest of the article, but perhaps these will help anyone looking to do so. Mackan79 ( talk) 23:58, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm looking through some of these reports. One aspect of the coverage I find interesting is how the different newspapers are dealing with the AP report, and the idea that Aftonbladet claimed Israel was killing Palestinians for their organs. For example, the New York Times states this to have been Aftonbladet's claim ("The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic, who released it because of a huge controversy last summer over an allegation by a Swedish newspaper that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs. Israel hotly denied the charge."), [1] while Al Jazeera is more legalistic ("In August the Aftonbladet newspaper ran an article alleging that the Israeli army had stolen body organs from Palestinian men after killing them."). [2] I heard a radio report today on NPR that was more like the New York Times. In looking at the article, Al Jazeera is clearly more accurate. From the translation here:
It seems a stretch to call this an allegation from Aftonbladet that it happened. I see now a statement attributed to Nancy Sheppard-Hughes, the professor who released the interview with Hiss, in Aftonbladet's most recent update, [3] which states via Google translate: "Many people who heard about the article understood it, according to Sheppard-Hughes, erroneously as Israeli army killing of Palestinians to access their [organs]. What happened on Kabirinstitutet was bad enough as it was and hit all kinds of people, not just Palestinians, she says." [4] I am not sure anything specifically needs to be changed at the moment, but it suggests this may be something editors here need to navigate. Someone said in an edit summary that Aftonbladet specifically denied making that claim, so I am curious if that comes up as well. Mackan79 ( talk) 07:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
To answer my own question, I see that the culture editor of Aftonbladet addresses the point in an update here. Via Google translate, which I had to touch up: [5]
This was noted in the rival paper Sydsvenskan's response: [6]
I think this is a pretty accurate translation for anyone else to check if they like, and might suggest material to address the whole confusion about what Aftonbladet said and the reaction to it. Mackan79 ( talk) 05:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
A broader article including this topic was just started, which I then moved to its creator's userspace here: User:Yamanam/2009_Israel_organ_controversy. I'm not 100% sure what's the best way to go about this, but it seemed that if others were interested in working on such an article they could do so there. I could see such an article coming to include this article as one part, probably more likely than ending up with two separate articles, but I think that may take a little time to see. This is just to let others know of its existence. Mackan79 ( talk) 09:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
According to this article ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs ) Israel has now confirmed to harvested organs from dead Palestinians, without the consent of their families till 1990s. 84.147.195.146 ( talk) 16:48, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't a separate article about "Organ harvesting in Israel" be created? -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 20:25, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, a political controversy about a newspaper article is neither a disease nor a treatment. WPMED hereby declines to consider this article as within its scope.
If any WPMED member has a different opinion, please feel free to contact me at WP:MEDA. In the meantime, non-members are reminded that they cannot legitimately demand that any WikiProject support any article. WikiProject tagging is not categorization, and projects have absolute authority over their scope. Please therefore do not re-tag this article as being within the scope of this project. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 20:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Ive read the Aftonbladet article many times and it never suggests that anyone is killed BECAUSE anyone wants to take his organs. This claim was NEVER mentioned in Sweden (were the original article was easy available for everyone) until after Israel admitted to the organ thefts. And as all of us knows, there is no need for extra killings to get fresh young bodies in Palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.249.145 ( talk) 13:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I have moved the following paragraph to second in the lede, from last, in an attempt to balance the article.
In December 2009, Israel admitted there had been organ harvesting of skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from dead bodies of Palestinians, Israeli soldiers and citizens and foreign workers, without permission from relatives, in the 1990s, but that this practice no longer occurred. [1] [2] [3]
93.96.148.42 ( talk)
Today Aftonbladet publisches an article about what would be an ultimate admission of guilt. They have replaced the director of the Coroners office(?), and the new director, Chen Kugel, writes to Donald Boström: "Du kan säga att du bidragit till denna förändring genom att rapportera om situationen”. "You can state that you have contributed to this change by repporting about the situation". The article is here http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article16430325.ab . I am not qualified enough to know where and what to write in the text. (the text is really a mess with repeting same things on more than one place) Maybe someone with better knowledge in english can do it? It would also be good with a engish source.
I also think this wiki-article gives to much importance to what other swedish newspapers are saying, Aftonbladet is the only major newspaper in Sweden that are left leaning, and also the only one that are pro-palestinian. All the others are sionistic (well, Svenska Dagbladet (conservative) are sionistic on the editorial, but balanced in the paper). This makes that they are taking every chance they get to attac Aftonbladet... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Växelhäxan ( talk • contribs) 10:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
References
As far as I can see it does not, so I have removed it from the lede, and posted it here.
Boström later said in an event in Israel that he had reconsidered his views on the article, that he had no proof other than allegations of Palestinians, and that he would have written the article differently if done again. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127720.html 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 01:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
It's been suggested in edits to the article that the point about press freedom is "trivial." In fact this point has been central to the Swedish response, specifically that it would violate the Swedish Constitution for government officials to criticize an article. We discuss this in the article, but it's seen for instance here where the Swedish Prime Minister states, as we quote him, that "[w]e cannot be asked by anyone to contravene the Swedish constitution, and this is something we will also not do within the European Union." Others disagreed and said that they could perhaps have criticized it to some extent, but we need to be clear that this was a discussion of the Swedish Constitution, not just an appeal to the principle of free press. Mackan79 ( talk) 02:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the initial article's claims, and whether it stated that Palestinians were being killed for the sake of taking their organs, this has been discussed some above. My view remains that while some have attributed this claim to the article, the fact that the author and others contend that it did not claim this means that the point is disputed, and accordingly per WP:NPOV that we can present reliable sources, but we cannot ourselves take a position on the matter. I'm fairly certain I have seen the author, Aftonbladet's culture editor, and Nancy Scheper-Hughes all dispute that the article makes this claim. I don't have all of these in front of me, but the article we cite is this follow up in Aftonbladet, which states: "Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon." Via Google Translate, "Many people who heard about the article understood it, according to Sheppard-Hughes, erroneously as Israeli army killing of Palestinians to access their services. What happened on Kabirinstitutet was bad enough as it was and hit all kinds of people, not just Palestinians, she says." I don't recall if I have read her statement independently, but it seems clear enough that when the author and the publication dispute the point then that alone is a reliable statement that certainly we cannot disregard. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I am concerned that recent changes to the lead have been problematic. One in particular has the third paragraph now as follows:
As an initial issue, I do not see how the first sentence here is appropriate. Having followed the dispute, the changes seems generally to be highlighting the very most controversial things that people have said, as if this has been the general response on the issue. Certainly there have been some comparisons to blood libels, and there was some very strong criticism of the Israeli response. Most of the sources did not respond primarily by asserting that the article was a blood libel, however, and even most sources that criticized the article did not call it a blood libel. To write this as if it was the predominant response thus does not accurately reflect the general commentary on the issue. Even as a factual matter, I do not see where several congresspersons said that it was a blood libel. I edited this to state that the Israeli government and several congresspersons "condemned" the article, which I believe is the more accurate statement. The edit was undone, so I have raised it here. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Associated Press, United Press International, CNN, ABC News, BBC News, The Guardian and others say it did. If there is a significant minority of reliable secondary saying it didn't, we can say the matter is disputed. In the meantime, not a single one has been presented. Jalapenos do exist ( talk) 22:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Several of the sources say that the article made this claim, in most cases by using the AP story. Al Jazeera uses the same story, but without that specific claim. [7] So, I think there is evidence of a difference in the reporting on this point. We could explain the difference, although it would mostly be original research. I don't think there is any significant discussion of the point in reliable sources, besides the newspaper's and Scheper-Hughes' denial that it made the claim. One Swedish source said that despite the denial this was just the "evidence chain" that Bostrom painted up, which I believe I quoted above. Otherwise it's just a point for us to be aware of in reporting, I think. We could note that following the December story, several news outlets reported that Aftonbladet had initially claimed that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to take their organs, although Bostrom, Aftonbladet, and Scheper-Hughes denied that the article made this claim. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, if editors wish to highlight the most controversial aspects of the article in order to explain the Israeli response, they should keep in mind that Aftonbladet also claimed vindication with the later stories. In that regard, I think it would be hard to deny that the article is primarily focused on the fact that Palestinians disappeared and they were returned without their organs. It isn't for us to gloss the basic claims and focus only on those points where the sentiment remains that the article went too far. If the article went too far, that's just one part of the story. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I just removed the statement that the article did make this claim that Israel had been killing Palestinians for the purpose of stealing their organs, which I hadn't seen was added. The fact is that even Sydsvkenskan, the rival Swedish paper that sharply criticized the article, does not say that the article made this claim, but rather argues that the article implied it. My Swedish is well out of practice, but I believe the translation I provided above via Google Translate is accurate:
See Google's version here (the fact that "Hiss," as in Dr. Yehuda Hiss, in Swedish means "elevator" may be especially confusing). The point is that, other than Bostrom, Aftonbladet, and Scheper-Hughes, all of whom deny that the article made the claim, this is the only source I'm aware of that actually looks at the issue. The others (all based on one AP story, as far as I am aware) summarize the story in a way that attributes this claim to the story, but only in passing and without any discussion. This does give us material to discuss the issue, I think, but certainly not to state categorically that the article made the claim despite Bostrom's denial. Mackan79 ( talk) 06:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
The Haaretz article attributes to Bostrom: "Like for example that they say I wrote that the soldiers hunted for youths so as to take their organs. It's obvious that's a lie." That seems quite clearly a denial that he made the claim we are discussing here. Mackan79 ( talk) 07:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
You seem all to have missed the crucial point: the article did not claim that anyone was killed for the purpose of harvesting organs, because the article does not claim that any organs were harvested at all. It claimed merely that there are indications that this had happened, and that the matter should be investigated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.7.82 ( talk) 04:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
References
ghiss
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).apk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).upik
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).bbck
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).cnnk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).itk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).hk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).jpk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).gur
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Mackan deleted part of this paragraph with the comment "This is not the place for us to pick out what we think is the most controversial thing in the article, even if this were accurate". Since this (Wikipedia) article is not about the Aftonbladet article but about the controversy surrounding the Aftonbladet article, of course we should point out the most controversial parts of it. Why else would we even have the second paragraph be about the article, if not to clarify what the controversy was about? As for the accuracy issue, but this is the removed sentence:
It also featured allegations that Israel deprived living Palestinians of their organs before killing them.
and this is the quote from the article on which I based the sentence:
I then travelled around interviewing a great number of Palestininan families in the West Bank and Gaza – meeting parents who told of how their sons had been deprived of organs before being killed.
What's the problem? Jalapenos do exist ( talk) 01:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
While the campaign was running, young Palestinian men started to disappear from villages in the West Bank and Gaza. After five days Israeli soldiers would bring them back dead, with their bodies ripped open. --{Here is one accusation}
The person they were assigned to put out of action was Bilal Achmed Ghanan, one of the stone-throwing Palestinian youngsters who made life difficult for the Israeli soldiers.-- {They are just "youngsters" who merely throw stones, and soldiers are assigned to kill them}
Together with other stone-throwing boys he hid in the Nablus mountains, with no roof over his head. Getting caught meant torture and death for these boys – they had to stay in the mountains at all costs.-- {just a youngster, a boy with no roof no home, to be killed by Israeli soldiers (like the dogs they are) (that is the implication)}
On May 13 Bilal made an exception, when for some reason, he walked unprotected past the carpentry workshop. Not even Talal, his older brother, knows why he took this risk. Maybe the boys were out of food and needed to restock. --{the boys were hungry, and had no home, just because they threw stones at the Israelis}
Everything went according to plan for the Israeli special force. The soldiers stubbed their cigarettes, put away their cans of Coca-Cola, and calmly aimed through the broken window. When Bilal was close enough they needed only to pull the triggers. The first shot hit him in the chest. According to villagers who witnessed the incident he was subsequently shot with one bullet in each leg. Two soldiers then ran down from the carpentry workshop and shot Bilal once in the stomach. {The killing plan went well for the Israelis. They were not out of food or without a roof or home. They had cans of Coke and plenty of cigarettes. The Israelis shot the boy in cold blood, in the chest and in the stomach, as well as the legs. It is not clear why they would shoot in such vital organs if they were planning to use the organs but that's another question for another time}
Together with the sharp noises from the shovels we could hear laughter from the soldiers who, as they waited to go home, exchanged some jokes. As Bilal was put in the grave his chest was uncovered. Suddenly it became clear to the few people present just what kind of abuse the boy had been exposed to. Bilal was not by far the first young Palestinian to be buried with a slit from his abdomen up to his chin. {The soldiers laugh and joke as the villagers bury the dead youngster. For them it is nothing. This is "far from the first." There are many questions that are unanswered here, not the least of which is why the military would return these boys at all. No sources are given in this article or for the accusations made in this story. Inferences are drawn and stories are told. I think to call this pulp fiction is to do a kindness to the story.} What is wrong with this analysis? That is how I read it. Stellarkid ( talk) 06:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
It is almost impossible to misunderstand what "example" hints at in the Swedish original but neither Aftonbladet nor Tlaxcala gives that sentence justice in their translations so... laugh on. The original article states "Ett av de exempel jag träffade på under denna kusliga resa var den unge stenkastaren Bilal Achmed Ghanan." Both Tlaxcala and Aftonbladet translate that into "One example that I encountered on this eerie trip was the young stone-thrower Bilal Achmed Ghanan." But that is not entirely correct. Google translate does a somewhat better work with beginning of the sentence when it produce "One of the examples I came across during this spooky trip was the young stone author Bilal Ahmed Ghanian." Personally, I would translate the sentence to "One of the examples I encountered during this eerie journey was the young stown-thrower Bilal Ahmed Ghanian." The translators at Tlaxcala and Aftonbladet might have been confused by the fact that "exempel" is not inflicted in Swedish, but is in English. To fit the singular form "example", maybe they omitted "of the" to correct the English grammar. Nevertheless, as it should be "examples" in plural the sentence is only related to what is said before, not "one example of" what is said right before. And the following story could in fact be something quite different, albeit related to organ theft. Steinberger ( talk) 09:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I'll post on the Swedish Wikiproject a request to translate the following paragraphs.
It took that a while to have the last two excerpts translated, so I did it myself. I know that Jalapenos thinks that I am biased in favor for Aftonbladet, but I reckon that it is easier to persuade some third party to critically review my translation then to have them making it from scratch. So I hereby encourage every Swedish-speaking user who sees this to read and correct my translations (the latter two from Aftonbladet) so that they are as correct as possible and that they don't make what they say any greater then it is. Steinberger ( talk) 05:31, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Original: "Intervjun med Hiss gjordes för nio år sedan men idag bekräftar israelisk militär att organstölder förekommit där hornhinnor, hjärtklaffar, hud och ben tagits från döda israeler (civila såväl som militärer), palestinier och gästarbetare.
Detta verkar ge Aftonbladet och Donald Boström rätt till hälften när han i en uppmärksammad artikel i somras menade att Israel stjäl organ från palestinier som man sedan dödar. I gårdagens Aftonbladet beklagar kulturchefen Åsa Linderborg att hon inte ”gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ”, men det var ju just den indiciekedjan Boström målade upp: organbrist i USA och Israel, organstöld i Israel, dödade och uppsprättade palestinier i Gaza." [9]
Translation: The interview with Hiss was done nine years ago, but today Israeli military confirms that organ theft have occurred where corneas, heart valves, skin and bone have been taken from dead Israelis (both civilian and military), Palestinians and guest workers.
This seem to give Aftonbladet and Donald Boström half right when he in a noticed article this summer implied that Israel steals organs from Palestianians that are later killed. In yesterday's Aftonbladet the head of culture Åsa Linderborg regrets that she has not "made it clearer that the Israeli army not shoots Palestinians with the intent to harvest organs", but that was the chain of indices Boström painted: organ shortage in USA and Israel, organ theft in Israel, killed and opened Palestinians in Gaza.
Discussion:
Original: "Israeliska myndigheter förnekade kraftfullt anklagelserna och israeliska befattningshavare kallade artikeln för 'antisemitisk'.
Många som hörde talas om artikeln uppfattade det, enligt Sheppard-Hughes, felaktigt som att israeliska armén dödade palestinier för att komma åt deras organ. Det som hände på Kabirinstitutet var illa nog som det var och drabbade alla slags människor, inte bara palestinier, säger hon:
– Men symboliken i att ta hud från den befolkning som uppfattas som fienden, och använda huden för den egna militären ... det är något som just på grund av dess symbolik är värt att fundera över, säger Nancy Sheppard-Hughes." [10]
Translation:
"Israeli authorities forcefully denied the accusations and Israeli officials called the article 'anti-semitic'.
Many of those who heard about he article perceived it, according to Sheppard-Huges, falsely as if the Israeli army killed Palestinians to get at their organs. What happened at the [Abu] Kabir institute was bad enough as it was and it affected all kinds of humans, not only Palestinians, she said:
- But the symbolism of taking skin from the population that is perceived as the enemy, and use the skin for it's own military ... that is something that just because of its symbolism of it that is worth tinking about, said Nancy Sheppard-Hughes."
Discussion:
Original: "När jag läser artikeln i efterhand kan jag begripa dem som inte förstår hur sommarens organskandal i New Jersey skulle ha att göra med de händelser Boström bevittnade för 17 år sedan på Västbanken och sedan dess försökt engagera världen i. New Jersey med sina israeliska kopplingar var en möjlighet för Boström att aktualisera och uppmärksamma samma brott som engagerat honom ända sedan han första gången skrev om dem i sin bok Inshallah.
För mig var det en självklarhet, men jag begriper om det inte var det för alla. Kanske borde vi även gjort än tydligare att israeliska armén inte skjuter palestinier i syfte att stjäla organ, de tar organ när de dödat av andra skäl – skäl som världens mest moraliska armé alltid anser sig ha. Boström påstår heller inget annat och troligen är denna min själv kritik fåfäng; ockupationsmaktens medlöpare skulle ändå ljugit ihop och tjatat in sin tolkning." [11]
Translation: "Reading the article in retrospect, I can understand those who does not understand how this summers organ scandal in New Jersey would have any connection with the events that Boström witnessed 17 years ago. New Jersey with its Israeli connections was an opportunity for Boström to draw notice to and making the same crimes that have engaged him every since he for the first time wrote about them in his book Inshallah topical.
For me that was self-evident, but I understand if it wasn't for everyone. Maybe we should have made it even clearer that the Israeli army does not shoot Palestinians in order to steal their organs, they take organs when they have killed for other reasons - reasons the worlds most moral army always thinks they have. Neither does Boström claim otherwise and probably this my self-criticism is in vain; the accomplices of the occupation force would lie together and rub in their interpretation anyway. "
Discussion:
This article is probably not a reliable source, but it has a good selection of relevant references from reliable sources, for anyone wishing to improve the article. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/aw-organs2.html#notes 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 04:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Plot Spoiler is removing any mention of Yehuda Hiss from this article despite the obvious, common sense relevance of Hiss to this topic. Anyway, many sources make the connection; it took me 5 seconds to find Forward Magazine explicitly connecting the two here.
Please stop, PlotSpoiler, and establish consensus before gutting this article. Factsontheground ( talk) 10:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the following sentence, regarding Hiss's revelations, from the lede, as it is not supported by the body. The body states that the claim that the article claimed that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs is disputed by the authors, and publishers. Hence the sentence is not representative of the article, and inappropriate in the lede, unless it explains who made the claim. "There was nothing in the interview to substantiate the claim that Israel killed Palestinians for their organs. [1] [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 05:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
References
ghiss
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This was removed: Israeli officials denounced the report at the time, labeling it "anti-Semitic," but did not comment on the specific allegations [1]
Are there specific objections to it? It seems to be WP:V and fairly notable. Unomi ( talk) 08:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Here is another source: http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=171732
The council and the commissioner’s office, “however unwittingly, helped to propagate an anti-Semitic libel by publishing [the EAFORD’s charges] as an official UN document,” wrote UN Watch Executive Director Hillel Neuer.
He called on the UN council and high commissioner to “immediately cease circulating this racist, hateful and inflammatory text to the ambassadors and other delegates of the UNHRC.”
Unomi ( talk) 09:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
It is the label by Israelis. We should not add anti-semitic category to the article only because of this. sicaspi ( talk) 14:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:05, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:38, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on 2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418673856&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418673856&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFullWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:08, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on 2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:30, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 8 external links on 2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251145125249&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804505720&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804476311&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251145167374&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFullWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:28, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
@ Repropo: The label conspiracy theory is controversial and thus that some people have called it a conspiracy theory is not sufficient. And fwiw, those who called it a conspiracy theory did so before the full extent of the scandal was well-known. Israeli doctors engaged in illicit organ harvesting which you can read about here: The Body of the Terrorist: Blood Libels, Bio-Piracy, and the Spoils of War at the Israeli Forensic Institute ImTheIP ( talk) 07:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Though sections 23-27 on this page indicate the article's page once had external links why aren't there any there at the moment? Mcljlm ( talk) 01:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)