This article was nominated for deletion on 15 December 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This source may be unreliable, for the following reasons:
The unreliability of the two sources ( MegemlĂ©keztek az AlsĂł-FehĂ©r vĂĄrmegyei magyarellenes vĂ©rengzĂ©sekrĆl and Hilda von Klausenburg: Magyarellenes atrocitĂĄsok ErdĂ©lyben Ă©s RomĂĄniĂĄban: 1784-1956 ) was also confirmed by 3 neutral users, so I eliminated them from the article ( Iaaasi ( talk) 12:23, 17 February 2011 (UTC))
I think that it is generally a good idea to provide details (e.g., names, events), if we can, but these details should make sense. I have two questions about the recent additions:
Thanks, KĆrteFa {ÏαλÎș} 22:41, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
It is a mistake here. Die SiebenbĂŒrger Bote has to be changed to Der SiebenbĂŒrger Bote. Der SiebenbĂŒrger Bote was the real name of the newspaper [2]. Der Bote means The Messenger and is a masculine noun (see http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bote)
Also Chisindia should be linked to Chisindia 79.117.188.107 ( talk) 15:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
When quoting a non-English source (whether in the main text, in a footnote, or on the talk page), a translation into English should always accompany the quote.
User:Sylvain1975, please offer the quote+ translation from Egyed Ăkos: ErdĂ©ly 1848-1849. Pallas AkadĂ©mia KönyvkiadĂł, CsĂkszereda 2010. p. 517 that you cited. 79.117.172.248 ( talk) 08:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I couldnt repair the alteration made in the table. I will give the English name of the book. â Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 ( talk âą contribs) 17:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
User:Sylvain1975, is the source Egyed Ăkos: ErdĂ©ly 1848-1849 (Transylvania in 1848-1849). Pallas AkadĂ©mia KönyvkiadĂł, CsĂkszereda 2010 available online? According to this text in the 7,500- 8,500 estimation there are also included victims of the Saxon militia. 86.127.29.13 ( talk) 08:44, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately there is no online version of the book. I have buyed the book. In Egyed s book are very detaliated accounts and tables about the victims and the events. The numbers given by the Austrian authorities and Romanian participants. Even an account of Avram Iancu himself about the number of the killed Hungarians. Some informations about Egyed Ăkos (1929-): he is one of the most important Transylvanian-Hungarian historians, foreign member of the Hungarian academy of Sciences and holder of many state prices (Romanian Academy Price, Cross of the Order of Hungarian Republic, III. Degree Order of the Science, etc). Too bad that his book about the Civil war in Transylvania is not translated to English. (Sylvian1975) â Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 ( talk âą contribs) 19:09, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
For the quote nr. 13: "VĂ©geredmĂ©nyben Ășgy lĂĄtjuk, hogy a hĂĄborĂșskodĂĄsok sorĂĄn Ă©s a polgĂĄrhĂĄborĂșban ErdĂ©ly polgĂĄri nĂ©pessĂ©gĂ©bĆl körĂŒlbelĂŒl 14 000-15 000 szemĂ©ly pusztulhatott el; nemzetisĂ©gĂŒk szerint: mintegy 7500-8500 magyar, 4400-6000 romĂĄn, s körĂŒlbelĂŒl 500 lehetett a szĂĄsz, zsidĂł, örmĂ©ny lakossĂĄg vesztesĂ©ge. [...] ValĂłszĂnƱ, hogy a magyar ĂĄldozatok szĂĄma sem Ă©rte el a 10 000 fĆt, amit az egyik kortĂĄrs szemlĂ©lĆ ĂĄllĂtott, illetve akkor Ă©rte el ezt a szĂĄmot, ha tekintetbe vesszĂŒk a megsebesĂŒltek, elhurcoltak, valamint az eltƱnteket is" - p. 517 -; "A magyar polgĂĄri lakossĂĄg vesztesĂ©geirĆl nem rendelkezĂŒnk olyanszerƱ kiadvĂĄnnyal, mint a romĂĄnokkal Ă©s szĂĄszokkal foglalkozĂł bĂ©csi statisztika. De vannak rĂ©szadatok, vesztesĂ©gleĂrĂĄsok, amelyek segĂtik a kutatĂĄst, Ă©s lehetĆvĂ© teszik egy megközelĂtĆen reĂĄlis Ă©rtĂ©kĂtĂ©let kialakĂtĂĄsĂĄt. [...] Ehhez szĂĄmĂtĂĄsi alapot nyĂșjt SzilĂĄgyi Farkas AlsĂł-FehĂ©r vĂĄrmegye 1848-49-ben cĂmƱ tĂĄrgyilagossĂĄgra törekvĆ munkĂĄja. [...] Mivel mi az AbrudbĂĄnyĂĄn, Verespatakon Ă©s környĂ©kĂ©n elpusztĂtott magyar lakosok szĂĄmĂĄt 2000-2500 fĆre tettĂŒk, vĂ©lemĂ©nyĂŒnk szerint alsĂł-FehĂ©r megyĂ©ben az elĆbb emlĂtettnĂ©l több, mintegy 6000 magyar polgĂĄri lakos pusztult el a romĂĄn felkelĆk fegyverei ĂĄltal. [...] A kutatĂĄs bizonyosan mĂ©g Ășj forrĂĄsokat Ă©s adatokat fog feltĂĄrni a magyarsĂĄg vesztesĂ©geirĆl. Annyit a rendelkezĂ©sre ĂĄllĂł adatok alapjĂĄn mondhatunk, hogy több mint 7000 magyar lakos elpusztĂtĂĄsĂĄrĂłl szĂĄmszerƱ adatokkal rendelkezĂŒnk, Ă©s sok helysĂ©ggel kapcsolatban megbĂzhatĂł utalĂĄst ismerĂŒnk "többek" halĂĄlĂĄrĂłl. Ăgy vĂ©ljĂŒk, hogy a törtĂ©neti ErdĂ©lyben elpusztĂtott magyar polgĂĄri lakossĂĄg szĂĄmĂĄt mintegy 7500-8500 fĆre tehetjĂŒk." - p. 513-517 - For the quote nr. 14: "BelsĆ-Szolnok Ă©s Doboka megyĂ©ben KĂĄdĂĄr JĂłzsef konkrĂ©t adatai szerint körĂŒlbelĂŒl 80-100 magyar polgĂĄri lakossal vĂ©geztek a felkelĆk, de nem tudhatĂł, hogy a nagyszĂĄmĂș összeszedett, megkĂnzott s NaszĂłdra, Monorra Ă©s HĂĄtszegre hurcolt magyar foglyok közĂŒl hĂĄnyan vesztettĂ©k Ă©letĂŒket." - p. 516 -; "A helyi mozgalmak is mind sƱrƱbbek lettek, mindenki a vĂĄrhatĂł nagy esemĂ©nyekrĆl beszĂ©lt, ezĂ©rt a magyar földesurak, s nagyrĂ©szt a tisztviselĆk is menekĂŒlĂ©sbe kezdtek, de ez nem mentett meg mindenkit, mert akiket a felkelĆk elfoghattak, azokat megkĂnozva hurcoltĂĄk NaszĂłdra, TekĂ©be, BalĂĄszfalvĂĄra, majd mind többet SzĂĄszrĂ©genbe." - p. 195 - About quote nr. 15: "Mivel a benyĂșjtott adatokat BĂ©csben is kĂ©tsĂ©gbe vontĂĄk, elrendeltĂ©k, hogy hivatalos szervek ĂrjĂĄk össze az erdĂ©lyi romĂĄnok vesztesĂ©geit. Erre 1850-ben kerĂŒlt sor. Az összeĂrĂĄs eredmĂ©nyĂ©t eredetileg a bĂ©csi titkos levĂ©ltĂĄrban helyeztĂ©k el, s 1851 elejĂ©n közölte az osztrĂĄk politikai "Erhebungs-Commision". [...] ValĂłban a csĂĄszĂĄri hatalomnak semmi Ă©rdeke sem fƱzĆdött ahhoz, hogy kisebbĂtse a romĂĄn Ă©s szĂĄsz vesztesĂ©gek szĂĄmĂĄt, arĂĄnyĂĄt, mivel a "a forradalmi hatĂłsĂĄgok Ă©s kĂ©pviselĆik szörnyƱ kegyetlensĂ©geit" akarja kimutatni. Eközben a romĂĄn Ă©s szĂĄsz felkelĂ©s magyar ĂĄldozatairĂłl szĂłt sem ejt!" - p. 507 -
Of course it is hard to write down all the pages, that refere to the losses of Hungarians. The book can be buyed in TRansylvanian towns. Also pictures, lithorgraphies about the tortures, massacres against Hungarians can be found and put on the wikipedia article: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tJjj_UYRWYA/TufTdKfKGeI/AAAAAAAABRg/mlFuAXf1uQo/s1600/Zalatna+5.JPG http://www.nimrod-mohacs.hu/sites/default/files/erdelyi%20fiuk.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/11225559223_5854742e7c_b.jpg (Sylvain1975) â Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 ( talk âą contribs) 06:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
You are welcome. Civilians mean, men, women and children. And when it writes polgĂĄri lakĂłssĂĄg "civilian population" it means men, women, children, because "population" includes all genders and ages. But if you want specific naming, I can give you as well from the book, showing the Romanians as those who done it. Who else? The Hungarians killed their kins? Please... For example Kisenyed (Sangatin massacre): "[...] a romĂĄn tĂĄbor azonban bĂ©kĂ©s elvonulĂĄst ĂgĂ©rt a magyar csalĂĄdoknak. Amikor azonban az ĂĄtadĂĄs megtörtĂ©nt, a felkelĆk mĂ©szĂĄrolni kezdtĂ©k a vĂ©dtelen polgĂĄrokat, s rövid idĆ alatt vĂĄlogatĂĄs nĂ©lkĂŒl 175 szemĂ©lyt - gyereket, nĆt, öreget elpusztĂtottak." - p. 228 - About the massacres of Zlatna: "[...] majd adott jelre mĂ©szĂĄrolni kezdtĂ©k a menekĂŒlĆ magyar polgĂĄri lakosokat. Biztos forrĂĄsok szerint legalĂĄbb 640-en vesztettĂ©k Ă©letĂŒket. Mindössze 140 embernek sikerĂŒlt megmenekĂŒlnie, fĆkĂ©nt Ioan Urs mĂ©hesi ortodox papnak köszönhetĆen, aki tudatosan azt az ĂĄlhĂrt költötte, hogy GyulafehĂ©rvĂĄrrĂłl tiltĂł rendelkezĂ©s Ă©rkezett." - p. 232 - You cannot say that all 640 were men (its demographically impossible, because men are less then women and children in a community, and if we think that meny of them could be soldiers elswere, we can conclude, that that in the group at that point men were less more than the women and children) and the 140 who escaped were women and children, because it is clearly showed in the text, that they were not saved because of gender, but because the Romanian priest (God bless him) sayed a false news to save them. About the Nagyenyed (Aiud) massacre at 9 january 1849: "A Repede Nicolae felgyĂłgyi görög katolikus pap [!] ĂĄltal vezetett csapat betört a minorita rend hĂĄzĂĄba, s gyilkolni kezdte - minden vĂĄlogatĂĄs nĂ©lkĂŒl -a több szĂĄz enyedit. [...] A menekĂŒltek az Ă©gĆ vĂĄros lĂĄngjai közt több ezer lövĂ©seket hallottak - hihetĆleg vĂ©dtelen nĆk, aggok, gyermekek gyilkoltattak le. [account of an eye witness, the functionary NĂ©meth LĂĄszlĂł, in the "HonvĂ©d" newspaper at 10 january 1849]" - p. 315 - (Sylvain1975)
Historical articles are usually in chronological order, which makes sense, because it sets up a logical flow of events. The first documented massacre was commited against the Romanians, in June 1848, the first one commited against the Hungarians was later on in October 1848. If there isn't any source saying otherwise, then the Romanian massacre was first, so that section should go first. â Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.30.180.227 ( talk) 20:13, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 17:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
1848â49 massacres in Transylvania â 1848â1849 massacres in Transylvania â per MOS:DATE#Ranges. Super Κ Dro 15:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 15 December 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This source may be unreliable, for the following reasons:
The unreliability of the two sources ( MegemlĂ©keztek az AlsĂł-FehĂ©r vĂĄrmegyei magyarellenes vĂ©rengzĂ©sekrĆl and Hilda von Klausenburg: Magyarellenes atrocitĂĄsok ErdĂ©lyben Ă©s RomĂĄniĂĄban: 1784-1956 ) was also confirmed by 3 neutral users, so I eliminated them from the article ( Iaaasi ( talk) 12:23, 17 February 2011 (UTC))
I think that it is generally a good idea to provide details (e.g., names, events), if we can, but these details should make sense. I have two questions about the recent additions:
Thanks, KĆrteFa {ÏαλÎș} 22:41, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
It is a mistake here. Die SiebenbĂŒrger Bote has to be changed to Der SiebenbĂŒrger Bote. Der SiebenbĂŒrger Bote was the real name of the newspaper [2]. Der Bote means The Messenger and is a masculine noun (see http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bote)
Also Chisindia should be linked to Chisindia 79.117.188.107 ( talk) 15:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
When quoting a non-English source (whether in the main text, in a footnote, or on the talk page), a translation into English should always accompany the quote.
User:Sylvain1975, please offer the quote+ translation from Egyed Ăkos: ErdĂ©ly 1848-1849. Pallas AkadĂ©mia KönyvkiadĂł, CsĂkszereda 2010. p. 517 that you cited. 79.117.172.248 ( talk) 08:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I couldnt repair the alteration made in the table. I will give the English name of the book. â Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 ( talk âą contribs) 17:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
User:Sylvain1975, is the source Egyed Ăkos: ErdĂ©ly 1848-1849 (Transylvania in 1848-1849). Pallas AkadĂ©mia KönyvkiadĂł, CsĂkszereda 2010 available online? According to this text in the 7,500- 8,500 estimation there are also included victims of the Saxon militia. 86.127.29.13 ( talk) 08:44, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately there is no online version of the book. I have buyed the book. In Egyed s book are very detaliated accounts and tables about the victims and the events. The numbers given by the Austrian authorities and Romanian participants. Even an account of Avram Iancu himself about the number of the killed Hungarians. Some informations about Egyed Ăkos (1929-): he is one of the most important Transylvanian-Hungarian historians, foreign member of the Hungarian academy of Sciences and holder of many state prices (Romanian Academy Price, Cross of the Order of Hungarian Republic, III. Degree Order of the Science, etc). Too bad that his book about the Civil war in Transylvania is not translated to English. (Sylvian1975) â Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 ( talk âą contribs) 19:09, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
For the quote nr. 13: "VĂ©geredmĂ©nyben Ășgy lĂĄtjuk, hogy a hĂĄborĂșskodĂĄsok sorĂĄn Ă©s a polgĂĄrhĂĄborĂșban ErdĂ©ly polgĂĄri nĂ©pessĂ©gĂ©bĆl körĂŒlbelĂŒl 14 000-15 000 szemĂ©ly pusztulhatott el; nemzetisĂ©gĂŒk szerint: mintegy 7500-8500 magyar, 4400-6000 romĂĄn, s körĂŒlbelĂŒl 500 lehetett a szĂĄsz, zsidĂł, örmĂ©ny lakossĂĄg vesztesĂ©ge. [...] ValĂłszĂnƱ, hogy a magyar ĂĄldozatok szĂĄma sem Ă©rte el a 10 000 fĆt, amit az egyik kortĂĄrs szemlĂ©lĆ ĂĄllĂtott, illetve akkor Ă©rte el ezt a szĂĄmot, ha tekintetbe vesszĂŒk a megsebesĂŒltek, elhurcoltak, valamint az eltƱnteket is" - p. 517 -; "A magyar polgĂĄri lakossĂĄg vesztesĂ©geirĆl nem rendelkezĂŒnk olyanszerƱ kiadvĂĄnnyal, mint a romĂĄnokkal Ă©s szĂĄszokkal foglalkozĂł bĂ©csi statisztika. De vannak rĂ©szadatok, vesztesĂ©gleĂrĂĄsok, amelyek segĂtik a kutatĂĄst, Ă©s lehetĆvĂ© teszik egy megközelĂtĆen reĂĄlis Ă©rtĂ©kĂtĂ©let kialakĂtĂĄsĂĄt. [...] Ehhez szĂĄmĂtĂĄsi alapot nyĂșjt SzilĂĄgyi Farkas AlsĂł-FehĂ©r vĂĄrmegye 1848-49-ben cĂmƱ tĂĄrgyilagossĂĄgra törekvĆ munkĂĄja. [...] Mivel mi az AbrudbĂĄnyĂĄn, Verespatakon Ă©s környĂ©kĂ©n elpusztĂtott magyar lakosok szĂĄmĂĄt 2000-2500 fĆre tettĂŒk, vĂ©lemĂ©nyĂŒnk szerint alsĂł-FehĂ©r megyĂ©ben az elĆbb emlĂtettnĂ©l több, mintegy 6000 magyar polgĂĄri lakos pusztult el a romĂĄn felkelĆk fegyverei ĂĄltal. [...] A kutatĂĄs bizonyosan mĂ©g Ășj forrĂĄsokat Ă©s adatokat fog feltĂĄrni a magyarsĂĄg vesztesĂ©geirĆl. Annyit a rendelkezĂ©sre ĂĄllĂł adatok alapjĂĄn mondhatunk, hogy több mint 7000 magyar lakos elpusztĂtĂĄsĂĄrĂłl szĂĄmszerƱ adatokkal rendelkezĂŒnk, Ă©s sok helysĂ©ggel kapcsolatban megbĂzhatĂł utalĂĄst ismerĂŒnk "többek" halĂĄlĂĄrĂłl. Ăgy vĂ©ljĂŒk, hogy a törtĂ©neti ErdĂ©lyben elpusztĂtott magyar polgĂĄri lakossĂĄg szĂĄmĂĄt mintegy 7500-8500 fĆre tehetjĂŒk." - p. 513-517 - For the quote nr. 14: "BelsĆ-Szolnok Ă©s Doboka megyĂ©ben KĂĄdĂĄr JĂłzsef konkrĂ©t adatai szerint körĂŒlbelĂŒl 80-100 magyar polgĂĄri lakossal vĂ©geztek a felkelĆk, de nem tudhatĂł, hogy a nagyszĂĄmĂș összeszedett, megkĂnzott s NaszĂłdra, Monorra Ă©s HĂĄtszegre hurcolt magyar foglyok közĂŒl hĂĄnyan vesztettĂ©k Ă©letĂŒket." - p. 516 -; "A helyi mozgalmak is mind sƱrƱbbek lettek, mindenki a vĂĄrhatĂł nagy esemĂ©nyekrĆl beszĂ©lt, ezĂ©rt a magyar földesurak, s nagyrĂ©szt a tisztviselĆk is menekĂŒlĂ©sbe kezdtek, de ez nem mentett meg mindenkit, mert akiket a felkelĆk elfoghattak, azokat megkĂnozva hurcoltĂĄk NaszĂłdra, TekĂ©be, BalĂĄszfalvĂĄra, majd mind többet SzĂĄszrĂ©genbe." - p. 195 - About quote nr. 15: "Mivel a benyĂșjtott adatokat BĂ©csben is kĂ©tsĂ©gbe vontĂĄk, elrendeltĂ©k, hogy hivatalos szervek ĂrjĂĄk össze az erdĂ©lyi romĂĄnok vesztesĂ©geit. Erre 1850-ben kerĂŒlt sor. Az összeĂrĂĄs eredmĂ©nyĂ©t eredetileg a bĂ©csi titkos levĂ©ltĂĄrban helyeztĂ©k el, s 1851 elejĂ©n közölte az osztrĂĄk politikai "Erhebungs-Commision". [...] ValĂłban a csĂĄszĂĄri hatalomnak semmi Ă©rdeke sem fƱzĆdött ahhoz, hogy kisebbĂtse a romĂĄn Ă©s szĂĄsz vesztesĂ©gek szĂĄmĂĄt, arĂĄnyĂĄt, mivel a "a forradalmi hatĂłsĂĄgok Ă©s kĂ©pviselĆik szörnyƱ kegyetlensĂ©geit" akarja kimutatni. Eközben a romĂĄn Ă©s szĂĄsz felkelĂ©s magyar ĂĄldozatairĂłl szĂłt sem ejt!" - p. 507 -
Of course it is hard to write down all the pages, that refere to the losses of Hungarians. The book can be buyed in TRansylvanian towns. Also pictures, lithorgraphies about the tortures, massacres against Hungarians can be found and put on the wikipedia article: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tJjj_UYRWYA/TufTdKfKGeI/AAAAAAAABRg/mlFuAXf1uQo/s1600/Zalatna+5.JPG http://www.nimrod-mohacs.hu/sites/default/files/erdelyi%20fiuk.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/11225559223_5854742e7c_b.jpg (Sylvain1975) â Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 ( talk âą contribs) 06:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
You are welcome. Civilians mean, men, women and children. And when it writes polgĂĄri lakĂłssĂĄg "civilian population" it means men, women, children, because "population" includes all genders and ages. But if you want specific naming, I can give you as well from the book, showing the Romanians as those who done it. Who else? The Hungarians killed their kins? Please... For example Kisenyed (Sangatin massacre): "[...] a romĂĄn tĂĄbor azonban bĂ©kĂ©s elvonulĂĄst ĂgĂ©rt a magyar csalĂĄdoknak. Amikor azonban az ĂĄtadĂĄs megtörtĂ©nt, a felkelĆk mĂ©szĂĄrolni kezdtĂ©k a vĂ©dtelen polgĂĄrokat, s rövid idĆ alatt vĂĄlogatĂĄs nĂ©lkĂŒl 175 szemĂ©lyt - gyereket, nĆt, öreget elpusztĂtottak." - p. 228 - About the massacres of Zlatna: "[...] majd adott jelre mĂ©szĂĄrolni kezdtĂ©k a menekĂŒlĆ magyar polgĂĄri lakosokat. Biztos forrĂĄsok szerint legalĂĄbb 640-en vesztettĂ©k Ă©letĂŒket. Mindössze 140 embernek sikerĂŒlt megmenekĂŒlnie, fĆkĂ©nt Ioan Urs mĂ©hesi ortodox papnak köszönhetĆen, aki tudatosan azt az ĂĄlhĂrt költötte, hogy GyulafehĂ©rvĂĄrrĂłl tiltĂł rendelkezĂ©s Ă©rkezett." - p. 232 - You cannot say that all 640 were men (its demographically impossible, because men are less then women and children in a community, and if we think that meny of them could be soldiers elswere, we can conclude, that that in the group at that point men were less more than the women and children) and the 140 who escaped were women and children, because it is clearly showed in the text, that they were not saved because of gender, but because the Romanian priest (God bless him) sayed a false news to save them. About the Nagyenyed (Aiud) massacre at 9 january 1849: "A Repede Nicolae felgyĂłgyi görög katolikus pap [!] ĂĄltal vezetett csapat betört a minorita rend hĂĄzĂĄba, s gyilkolni kezdte - minden vĂĄlogatĂĄs nĂ©lkĂŒl -a több szĂĄz enyedit. [...] A menekĂŒltek az Ă©gĆ vĂĄros lĂĄngjai közt több ezer lövĂ©seket hallottak - hihetĆleg vĂ©dtelen nĆk, aggok, gyermekek gyilkoltattak le. [account of an eye witness, the functionary NĂ©meth LĂĄszlĂł, in the "HonvĂ©d" newspaper at 10 january 1849]" - p. 315 - (Sylvain1975)
Historical articles are usually in chronological order, which makes sense, because it sets up a logical flow of events. The first documented massacre was commited against the Romanians, in June 1848, the first one commited against the Hungarians was later on in October 1848. If there isn't any source saying otherwise, then the Romanian massacre was first, so that section should go first. â Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.30.180.227 ( talk) 20:13, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 17:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
1848â49 massacres in Transylvania â 1848â1849 massacres in Transylvania â per MOS:DATE#Ranges. Super Κ Dro 15:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)