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1345 was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
January 3, 2008. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that the year
1345 saw both the completion of the
Notre Dame de Paris (pictured) and the writing of important works on
Buddhist cosmology? |
...from other year articles?
Answer: A group of editors decided it would be interesting to try to get a random year article to FA status. This is what we've cooked up so far. Hopefully it catches on... Wrad ( talk) 07:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Here's what I think: When I look at a year article on Wikipedia, I'm bombarded by a bulleted list of disjointed events, and it's hard to figure out what's going on. It's nice to have a written summary that takes into account what happened before and after the event occured. I can't really tell what was going on in one year if I only read snippets of information. I think having the year article in essay form helps me to better see the "big picture". Instead of seeing just a list of events, I can see, really see, what was happening that year, in every part of the world.
That said, I also think the timelines and lists of births and deaths are very interesting as well. I think we should keep them as separate articles, as Wrad proposed. - Tea and crumpets ( t c) 00:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Per your request at Milhist, I'll try to read it again in depth later but the thing that jumped out was Alfonso XI of Castile attacking Granada in the intro but Gibraltar in the body. By 1345, the Emirate of Granada was already an autonomous Castilian client state. Al-Andalus gives background. I'd personally use Moorish in place of Muslim in this context, as the religious divide was much smaller than people imagine. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 20:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
How different would this article actually be from a similarly fleshed-out 1344 or 1346? A major part of the discussion is background-type material that would apply equally to the world a couple of years behind or ahead. So, I'm not sure one can reasonably discuss historical trends on such a short timescale of only one year. Maybe it doesn't make sense to try for Featured Article with 1345, but instead to expand this to cover the 1340s. Then, 1345 could be molded to a Featured List candidate, and just catalog every significant event of that year, without attempting a historical summary. Anyway, I do admire the extensive research that's gone into this. Thanks.-- Pharos ( talk) 07:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I think to have a real article, we need more than just a cataloging of events (no matter how well-written), that happened in one particular year. We need a discussion of worldwide trends over a period of time, and history just didn't move that fast in the 14th century (or arguably even today). I know that notability hasn't traditionally been applied to the year articles, but I think if we look at it objectively the years as such are not encyclopedically notable; people often write books on particular centuries, and occasionally on particular decades, but, outside of microhistory approaches, never on particular years (excepting a couple of choice recent ones like 1945). What I think you've really tried to communicate in this article is the world of 1345; which as I see it is substantially really the world of the 1340s, and I think that by constraining a treatment of such information like this to one particular year we'll only be overemphasizing individually-dated events over historical trends. Which is not to say that the conventional approaches to the individual year articles are a good approach — what we need for these in my opinion is a thoroughly-organized topical listing, replacing or in addition to the timeline, something that could be of the caliber to make Featured List.-- Pharos ( talk) 05:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
This is the first year article of this type that we have made. Everyone in this discussion is just speculating on what other articles would be like. I'd say Wrad and I have a better idea of what they would be like, because we actually delved in, did the research, wrote the article, and made the maps. But we still don't know for sure how the 1344, 1346, and 1340s articles would turn out. I propose we make these articles into prose and see what happens. - Tea and crumpets ( t c) 21:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The format of this article is amazing, Wrad, congratulations! I think this is the way the years articles should be organized, at least for earlier dates, recent years are split into very detailed articles anyway. -- Tone 21:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
03-Jan-2007: The prior article format, as article " 1345" listing events, births, deaths (etc.) appears to be the way much of the world's other-language Wikipedias treat slicing each year of time. As I said, slicing each year-article into months and days is a natural progression of slicing time to be a single "year" for an article. The viewpoint of focusing on each year, as a separate article, generates the perspective of a year-by-year timeline, where each year then contains month-by-month timeline entries. That obvious approach to structuring a year as a set of months seems to be favored worldwide, with the typical recent history of 2,500 year-articles each structured as a timeline in over 70 languages of the other-language wikipedias. I was mistaken to say the new essay-style format is "changing herds of horses in mid-ocean" -- the difficulty of changing timelines to essay-style format is more like "changing from ship to canoe in the middle of a hurricane". Those 175,000 (70 * 2500) other-language timeline articles have a momentum of their own, as linked to the current format of English timeline articles. Note: I have used 70 languages as a conservative estimate, since WP has over 200 languages = 200 * 2500, or potentially more than 500,000 thousand (half a million) other-language timeline articles linked to English Wikipedia. - Wikid77 ( talk) 18:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I really hope you guys don't get discouraged by the naysayers above. This article is a great start, and certainly popped out on DYK. It's got a bit of a ways to go for Featured quality, but it's definitely within reach. It might be worth creating an adjacent year article, as mentioned above, just to show that years within a decade can be substantially differentiated, but whatever your next project is, I eagerly await its results :) GeeJo (t)⁄ (c) • 22:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I was a sceptic when I came here from DYK, but I'm warming to it, and I certainly approve of experimentation and being bold. I agree that the 1345 timeline is of little use: it adds little to Category:1345.
Some thoughts: I only wikify dates for autolocalisation, and never wikify years in dates. I am convinced there is zero utility in doing so. I have never clicked through from a wikified year to the year in question (until now...I'm a sucker for DYK). So I ask, who is going to arrive at this article? I would guess, someone looking for a bird's eye view of history before homing in synchronically or skimming along diachronically. So I think this article's usefulness (if any) will only become apparent when 1346 and 1344 and 1340s are similarly revamped; some material will probably need to be moved from here to one of those as appropriate.
One thing that I definitely dislike is the use of images not closely related to 1345: the post-classical Mayan structure, and the maps: Byzantine Empire in 1328, Mali Empire ca. 1350; and will there be a Europe in 1346 map to track the nice Europe in 1345 one? jnestorius( talk) 00:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
At first I didn't like the "different" article, but I saw how much information there really is, I have started to like this. I also found a tiny problem with the regions here: how about moving the Baltics from Eastern Europe to Northern Europe. It is not proper to put Estonia and Byzantium in the same region. Since this is will propably come up more in the future, you should first define the main regions, to make the articles alike. Also, I noticed that some of the maps (I really liked the events' map) have very sharp colours and others quite soft. If there is any way of making the maps more similar to each other (so that 1346 Europe would look the same), please consider it, because there are so many years and writing articles for all of them is such a huge project. And ongoing wars and other major events should be brought out of the text more clearly. H2ppyme ( talk) 16:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I know this a very late comment, but I like this article too. Way back when I was a new Wikipedian I used to like to expand the year lists; I only ever got up to 600, but I always thought something like this would be a good idea. I don't know if it's possible, or even useful, to do the same for the surrounding years (1344 and 1346 in most parts of the world aren't going to be any different, as far as we know, from 1345), and I don't know how jarring it would be to have one random year (or a bunch of random years) as detailed articles and the rest as bare lists, but still, it's a good idea and quite an accomplishment. Adam Bishop ( talk) 22:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
03-Jan-2008: The concern about "no months in earlier years" is simply due to limited sources. As you know, the astronomer of Cleopatra VII, Sosigenes, helped Julius Caesar create a 12-month calendar, circa 48 BC, which evolved over about 10 years. Records state that Cleopatra died the last day of August (then 6th month " Sextilius" ) now dated 30 BC, in Egypt, but as dated with the Julian calendar. I formerly feared that no months or days were recorded for ancient historical events, but I realized, time after time, that modern people were omitting the dates, perhaps due to calendar shifts, and simply saying "1345" (or such) to simplify the event reported. I understand the frustration of omitted months in sources, but archaeologists/etc. are finding pinpointed dates all the time: just recently, underwater exploration (of shipwrecks) confirmed that the oldest colonial settlement in the mainland U.S. was at Pensacola, Florida (older than St. Augustine) circa August 1559, but famine, fighting, and 2 hurricanes decimated the colonists who then returned to Cuba or Vera Cruz. Probably, coastal hurricanes (long before Katrina flooded and leveled Mississippi) are a major reason the U.S. did not remain a Spanish nation: enormous Spanish settlements and convoys were lost over the decades. However, the dates of many such hurricanes have been determined, as well as the date Spain decided to abandon the U.S. Gulf coast. The precise month/day of many events have been retro-determined, such as by astronomers comparing eclipses and full moons (etc.) or connecting news of other famous events of the time. It is not a failure of recorded history that young Wikipedia editors do not have all the dates, or even define (today) the uber-famous Roman month " Sextilius" known well to linguist Cleopatra. Wikipedia is simply hollow in many, many areas (" string grammar" or " Bill Gates fostering computer viruses"). I appreciate how your group is adding sourced information, but insisting on redefining the article named "1345" is the main issue, as others have recommended, while replacing the list " 1340s" would be 100 times less contentious (and become a truly remarkable featured article). Meanwhile many precise months/days will be revealed, and if the crypt of Antonius and Kleopatra is found, the precise manner and hour of her death might be revealed, as well as tracking their children who were adopted into Roman society, over 1,370 years before 1345. Don't be frustrated that months/days are not precisely known today: archaeologists have just begun. - Wikid77 ( talk) 02:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think this article has enough refs to be a GA yet, but maybe by the time someone comes around to review it it will be ready. It is pretty close. Wrad ( talk) 21:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I have not yet read through this article in its new shape, but having read the discussions, I cannot really say if I like it or not. I think I'm mostly for it, but I also guess it needs time to sink in. However, that was not what I wanted to point out.
There is a fault in the map "Europe in 1345" (carried over from the "Europe in 1328" map). Estonia is in red, indicating that it is part of Sweden, which is wrong. Estonia was conquered by Denmark in 1219 and remained Danish until 1346, when Denmark sold it to the Livonian Knights. It didn't become Swedish until 1561. Therefore, Estonia should (in both these maps) have the yellow colour that Denmark is in. There may be other such faults on these maps, but that is the one I (being Swedish) spot as obvious and think should be corrected. / Ludde23 Talk Contrib 22:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a fascinating approach to the concept of articles about individual years, and I think it is an excellent article. Unfortunately, it is clear that swathes of this text are unreferenced. There need to be reliable references for every paragraphs and more on each direct quote, controversial fact or statistic. I know this seems a lot, but it is important, especially in a diverse summary article like this, to be clear where the information has come from. If you like, I can add {{ Fact}} tags where I think they are needed. In addition to this major flaw, I have made some notes below.
There are other things I have missed I am sure, so I will provide seven days for the above changes to be made, in particular the sufficient referencing which is a must. I will check here or you can post on my talk page if you have any queries, need an extension or think the piece is ready for a re-review. Regards-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 00:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The summary and timeline have now been merged per discussion here at WikiProject years. Wrad ( talk) 16:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Could someone move the 1345 (summary) talk page back here? Wrad ( talk) 19:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
The intro is an important part of this article and shouldn't be moved to an Overview section. Not only does WP:LEAD outline how lead sections should be an overview and summary of the article as a whole, the Lead Wikiproject itself asks for every ear article to have a lead in its own guidelines. Leads summarizing the year also seemed to be supported in our discussion about how to merge summaries into timelines. Wrad ( talk) 15:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
What do we do with all this undated info in the timeline?
The third and fourth items are mentioned in the summary section already, the rest don't seem to have much notability. I personally think the timeline should only list items with dates. I could list tons of other 1345 events in the timeline which have no exact dates for them, but at that point the timeline would cease to be a timeline and would become a list, nothing more. Basically, I propose that we don't put anything in the timeline unless it has at least the month it happened along with it. Wrad ( talk) 16:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I have just expanded this article per the many requests on this page. Wrad ( talk) 23:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
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-- JeffGBot ( talk) 14:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1345 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
1345 was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
January 3, 2008. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that the year
1345 saw both the completion of the
Notre Dame de Paris (pictured) and the writing of important works on
Buddhist cosmology? |
...from other year articles?
Answer: A group of editors decided it would be interesting to try to get a random year article to FA status. This is what we've cooked up so far. Hopefully it catches on... Wrad ( talk) 07:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Here's what I think: When I look at a year article on Wikipedia, I'm bombarded by a bulleted list of disjointed events, and it's hard to figure out what's going on. It's nice to have a written summary that takes into account what happened before and after the event occured. I can't really tell what was going on in one year if I only read snippets of information. I think having the year article in essay form helps me to better see the "big picture". Instead of seeing just a list of events, I can see, really see, what was happening that year, in every part of the world.
That said, I also think the timelines and lists of births and deaths are very interesting as well. I think we should keep them as separate articles, as Wrad proposed. - Tea and crumpets ( t c) 00:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Per your request at Milhist, I'll try to read it again in depth later but the thing that jumped out was Alfonso XI of Castile attacking Granada in the intro but Gibraltar in the body. By 1345, the Emirate of Granada was already an autonomous Castilian client state. Al-Andalus gives background. I'd personally use Moorish in place of Muslim in this context, as the religious divide was much smaller than people imagine. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 20:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
How different would this article actually be from a similarly fleshed-out 1344 or 1346? A major part of the discussion is background-type material that would apply equally to the world a couple of years behind or ahead. So, I'm not sure one can reasonably discuss historical trends on such a short timescale of only one year. Maybe it doesn't make sense to try for Featured Article with 1345, but instead to expand this to cover the 1340s. Then, 1345 could be molded to a Featured List candidate, and just catalog every significant event of that year, without attempting a historical summary. Anyway, I do admire the extensive research that's gone into this. Thanks.-- Pharos ( talk) 07:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I think to have a real article, we need more than just a cataloging of events (no matter how well-written), that happened in one particular year. We need a discussion of worldwide trends over a period of time, and history just didn't move that fast in the 14th century (or arguably even today). I know that notability hasn't traditionally been applied to the year articles, but I think if we look at it objectively the years as such are not encyclopedically notable; people often write books on particular centuries, and occasionally on particular decades, but, outside of microhistory approaches, never on particular years (excepting a couple of choice recent ones like 1945). What I think you've really tried to communicate in this article is the world of 1345; which as I see it is substantially really the world of the 1340s, and I think that by constraining a treatment of such information like this to one particular year we'll only be overemphasizing individually-dated events over historical trends. Which is not to say that the conventional approaches to the individual year articles are a good approach — what we need for these in my opinion is a thoroughly-organized topical listing, replacing or in addition to the timeline, something that could be of the caliber to make Featured List.-- Pharos ( talk) 05:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
This is the first year article of this type that we have made. Everyone in this discussion is just speculating on what other articles would be like. I'd say Wrad and I have a better idea of what they would be like, because we actually delved in, did the research, wrote the article, and made the maps. But we still don't know for sure how the 1344, 1346, and 1340s articles would turn out. I propose we make these articles into prose and see what happens. - Tea and crumpets ( t c) 21:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The format of this article is amazing, Wrad, congratulations! I think this is the way the years articles should be organized, at least for earlier dates, recent years are split into very detailed articles anyway. -- Tone 21:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
03-Jan-2007: The prior article format, as article " 1345" listing events, births, deaths (etc.) appears to be the way much of the world's other-language Wikipedias treat slicing each year of time. As I said, slicing each year-article into months and days is a natural progression of slicing time to be a single "year" for an article. The viewpoint of focusing on each year, as a separate article, generates the perspective of a year-by-year timeline, where each year then contains month-by-month timeline entries. That obvious approach to structuring a year as a set of months seems to be favored worldwide, with the typical recent history of 2,500 year-articles each structured as a timeline in over 70 languages of the other-language wikipedias. I was mistaken to say the new essay-style format is "changing herds of horses in mid-ocean" -- the difficulty of changing timelines to essay-style format is more like "changing from ship to canoe in the middle of a hurricane". Those 175,000 (70 * 2500) other-language timeline articles have a momentum of their own, as linked to the current format of English timeline articles. Note: I have used 70 languages as a conservative estimate, since WP has over 200 languages = 200 * 2500, or potentially more than 500,000 thousand (half a million) other-language timeline articles linked to English Wikipedia. - Wikid77 ( talk) 18:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I really hope you guys don't get discouraged by the naysayers above. This article is a great start, and certainly popped out on DYK. It's got a bit of a ways to go for Featured quality, but it's definitely within reach. It might be worth creating an adjacent year article, as mentioned above, just to show that years within a decade can be substantially differentiated, but whatever your next project is, I eagerly await its results :) GeeJo (t)⁄ (c) • 22:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I was a sceptic when I came here from DYK, but I'm warming to it, and I certainly approve of experimentation and being bold. I agree that the 1345 timeline is of little use: it adds little to Category:1345.
Some thoughts: I only wikify dates for autolocalisation, and never wikify years in dates. I am convinced there is zero utility in doing so. I have never clicked through from a wikified year to the year in question (until now...I'm a sucker for DYK). So I ask, who is going to arrive at this article? I would guess, someone looking for a bird's eye view of history before homing in synchronically or skimming along diachronically. So I think this article's usefulness (if any) will only become apparent when 1346 and 1344 and 1340s are similarly revamped; some material will probably need to be moved from here to one of those as appropriate.
One thing that I definitely dislike is the use of images not closely related to 1345: the post-classical Mayan structure, and the maps: Byzantine Empire in 1328, Mali Empire ca. 1350; and will there be a Europe in 1346 map to track the nice Europe in 1345 one? jnestorius( talk) 00:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
At first I didn't like the "different" article, but I saw how much information there really is, I have started to like this. I also found a tiny problem with the regions here: how about moving the Baltics from Eastern Europe to Northern Europe. It is not proper to put Estonia and Byzantium in the same region. Since this is will propably come up more in the future, you should first define the main regions, to make the articles alike. Also, I noticed that some of the maps (I really liked the events' map) have very sharp colours and others quite soft. If there is any way of making the maps more similar to each other (so that 1346 Europe would look the same), please consider it, because there are so many years and writing articles for all of them is such a huge project. And ongoing wars and other major events should be brought out of the text more clearly. H2ppyme ( talk) 16:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I know this a very late comment, but I like this article too. Way back when I was a new Wikipedian I used to like to expand the year lists; I only ever got up to 600, but I always thought something like this would be a good idea. I don't know if it's possible, or even useful, to do the same for the surrounding years (1344 and 1346 in most parts of the world aren't going to be any different, as far as we know, from 1345), and I don't know how jarring it would be to have one random year (or a bunch of random years) as detailed articles and the rest as bare lists, but still, it's a good idea and quite an accomplishment. Adam Bishop ( talk) 22:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
03-Jan-2008: The concern about "no months in earlier years" is simply due to limited sources. As you know, the astronomer of Cleopatra VII, Sosigenes, helped Julius Caesar create a 12-month calendar, circa 48 BC, which evolved over about 10 years. Records state that Cleopatra died the last day of August (then 6th month " Sextilius" ) now dated 30 BC, in Egypt, but as dated with the Julian calendar. I formerly feared that no months or days were recorded for ancient historical events, but I realized, time after time, that modern people were omitting the dates, perhaps due to calendar shifts, and simply saying "1345" (or such) to simplify the event reported. I understand the frustration of omitted months in sources, but archaeologists/etc. are finding pinpointed dates all the time: just recently, underwater exploration (of shipwrecks) confirmed that the oldest colonial settlement in the mainland U.S. was at Pensacola, Florida (older than St. Augustine) circa August 1559, but famine, fighting, and 2 hurricanes decimated the colonists who then returned to Cuba or Vera Cruz. Probably, coastal hurricanes (long before Katrina flooded and leveled Mississippi) are a major reason the U.S. did not remain a Spanish nation: enormous Spanish settlements and convoys were lost over the decades. However, the dates of many such hurricanes have been determined, as well as the date Spain decided to abandon the U.S. Gulf coast. The precise month/day of many events have been retro-determined, such as by astronomers comparing eclipses and full moons (etc.) or connecting news of other famous events of the time. It is not a failure of recorded history that young Wikipedia editors do not have all the dates, or even define (today) the uber-famous Roman month " Sextilius" known well to linguist Cleopatra. Wikipedia is simply hollow in many, many areas (" string grammar" or " Bill Gates fostering computer viruses"). I appreciate how your group is adding sourced information, but insisting on redefining the article named "1345" is the main issue, as others have recommended, while replacing the list " 1340s" would be 100 times less contentious (and become a truly remarkable featured article). Meanwhile many precise months/days will be revealed, and if the crypt of Antonius and Kleopatra is found, the precise manner and hour of her death might be revealed, as well as tracking their children who were adopted into Roman society, over 1,370 years before 1345. Don't be frustrated that months/days are not precisely known today: archaeologists have just begun. - Wikid77 ( talk) 02:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think this article has enough refs to be a GA yet, but maybe by the time someone comes around to review it it will be ready. It is pretty close. Wrad ( talk) 21:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I have not yet read through this article in its new shape, but having read the discussions, I cannot really say if I like it or not. I think I'm mostly for it, but I also guess it needs time to sink in. However, that was not what I wanted to point out.
There is a fault in the map "Europe in 1345" (carried over from the "Europe in 1328" map). Estonia is in red, indicating that it is part of Sweden, which is wrong. Estonia was conquered by Denmark in 1219 and remained Danish until 1346, when Denmark sold it to the Livonian Knights. It didn't become Swedish until 1561. Therefore, Estonia should (in both these maps) have the yellow colour that Denmark is in. There may be other such faults on these maps, but that is the one I (being Swedish) spot as obvious and think should be corrected. / Ludde23 Talk Contrib 22:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a fascinating approach to the concept of articles about individual years, and I think it is an excellent article. Unfortunately, it is clear that swathes of this text are unreferenced. There need to be reliable references for every paragraphs and more on each direct quote, controversial fact or statistic. I know this seems a lot, but it is important, especially in a diverse summary article like this, to be clear where the information has come from. If you like, I can add {{ Fact}} tags where I think they are needed. In addition to this major flaw, I have made some notes below.
There are other things I have missed I am sure, so I will provide seven days for the above changes to be made, in particular the sufficient referencing which is a must. I will check here or you can post on my talk page if you have any queries, need an extension or think the piece is ready for a re-review. Regards-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 00:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The summary and timeline have now been merged per discussion here at WikiProject years. Wrad ( talk) 16:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Could someone move the 1345 (summary) talk page back here? Wrad ( talk) 19:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
The intro is an important part of this article and shouldn't be moved to an Overview section. Not only does WP:LEAD outline how lead sections should be an overview and summary of the article as a whole, the Lead Wikiproject itself asks for every ear article to have a lead in its own guidelines. Leads summarizing the year also seemed to be supported in our discussion about how to merge summaries into timelines. Wrad ( talk) 15:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
What do we do with all this undated info in the timeline?
The third and fourth items are mentioned in the summary section already, the rest don't seem to have much notability. I personally think the timeline should only list items with dates. I could list tons of other 1345 events in the timeline which have no exact dates for them, but at that point the timeline would cease to be a timeline and would become a list, nothing more. Basically, I propose that we don't put anything in the timeline unless it has at least the month it happened along with it. Wrad ( talk) 16:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I have just expanded this article per the many requests on this page. Wrad ( talk) 23:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 14:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 14:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC)