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According to Eilert Ekwall, Ethel means 'protection' rather than the broader 'noble'. So keep the semiotic ring-a-ding-ding-ding, but the name means 'protection advice uncounselled,' apt for his era. 64.65.73.178 ( talk) 21:22, 13 June 2010 (UTC) ==Untitled== OK, so why was he called "The Uncounselled", then? Bad habit of holding his hands over his ears and singing "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean" when his advisors spoke? -- Paul Drye
According to [1], it means "unwise". -- DrBob
There are potentially n different translations out there, and n-1 of them are historically inaccurate if not actually wrong from a linguistic point of view. However, and I was hoping not to have to go into this, it's actually a longer article than most in the Wikipedia in itself, the word in AS is unraede, "without counsel" meaning that (to paraphrase Monty Python) in the ultimate balance, when all was said and done, at the final whistle, at a time of major national crisis he had absolutely no answers whatsoever for the problems which confronted him, and, moreover, as those who gave hime the nickname would have been fully aware, nobody on which he could rely to turn to for those answers. It is an Anglo-Saxon form of joke, an ironic pun, and is a) exceptionally cruel and b) searingly accurate. It doesn't just mean he was unprepared, it means he didn't have a fecking clue.
PS: DrBob: you don't think that the chinless wonders might be being somewhat diplomatic about their forebears in their website do you, by any chance? sjc
mmmmm, royal nomenclature. My favorite English mistranslation is Philip the Fair of France. He's Philip-the-Goodlooking-who-EVERYONE-hated. Traditional nomenclature is a snare and a delusion, but how else are we going to keep Ethelred the U. separate from the other Ethelred(s)? --MichaelTinkler
My sentiments entirely. I was going to bang him in as Ethelred II but no-one would have the foggiest who Ethelred II was (I had to figure it myself). sjc
Best def I've seen is "poorly advised", tho I doubt "unready" will unstick... Trekphiler 11:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Adraeus, what is it about the article that needs to be cleaned up? Adam Bishop 8 July 2005 15:13 (UTC)
Well it's cleaned up now, I hope. Adam Bishop 20:21, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
What is omitted in this article is an examination of the serious character flaws that caused his reign to be one of the most disastrous in English history. He seemed unable to retain the loyalty of almost any of his subjects and was continually betrayed by various of his commanders. He was inconsistent and forgave those who betrayed him only to have them betray him again. He often rewarded his enemies and punished his followers. Instead of having his rivals executed by royal decree he had them assassinated in underhand ways so they never knew where they stood. He made war on civilians and ran away from battle with proper armies.
Much of this can be understood- though not forgiven- by reference to his childhood. He appears to have witnessed the brutal assassination of his half-brother King
Edward the Martyr by his own mother when aged 10. He is reported to have cried inconsolably so his mother beat him with candles. This gave him a lifelong aversion to candles and might be expected to lead to a
borderline personality disorder, which is borne out by his later behaviour. It also meant that he could not stand candles in his presence- so what did he do when it got dark? He is said to have been very lazy and slept a lot, but he also had a vast number of children.
—
Streona 21:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Good work on a basic outline of his life, but the article is mostly unsourced and could certainly contain more details in most facets of his life. Perhaps most lacking is any discussion of where "Unready" came from. Even though the translation of "Unraede" is in question, there should still be some description of the term and why he was not, in fact, Unready. — Cuivi é nen 15:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this page is pretty good. In modern Dutch, a sister language of Old English, the naming pun still works: Edelraad Onraad. And so in German: Adelrat Unrat. I guess you have to viscerally "get" the joke to appreciate that the explanations offered by page writer and above posters are correct.
As pointed out above, there is some confusion about Ethelred's wives. The text gives three, Elflaed with a broken link, Elgifu with a link to a woman born born in 997 and had two children, and yet by 1002 he is married to Emma of Normandy. The summary box lists only the last two wives with the same wrong link for Elgifu. Dudleymiles 17:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Please correct the name of Aelgifu to Aelflaed, per this link showing her marriage to Ethelred the Unready. On the other hand, Emma of Normandy adopted the name of Aelgifu when she married Ethelred. On the sidebar of Ethelred's article, please separate the children - firstly to Aelflaed, then secondly to Emma (she had Alfred, Edward and Goda), all other children from Aelflaed under Ethelred. Sundehul 1 Dec 2007.
In the last few hours, the 'II' in Ethelred II has been removed, with some insistence. The editor in question argues that this enumeration is spurious and incorrect, and adduces the examples of the three pre-Conquest kings of England called 'Edward'. I have countered that this enumeration is in fact found in fundamental historiography outside the confines of Wikipedia, e.g. in Stafford, P., Unification and Conquest, Edward Arnold, 1989, index, and so is not spurious; and would argue that, within the context of Anglo-Saxon kingship, it is both correct and useful. Also, I would say that the argument regarding kings called 'Edward' does not apply, since there are no post-Conquest kings called 'Æthelred' (or however you want to spell it). I have also indicated that, as this enumeration has been present on Ethelred's page since 2001, through a large number of edits, the consensus appears already to be in favour of its inclusion. At the moment, I don't want to pursue this any further with the editor in question, but I invite interested comments here. Nortonius ( talk) 11:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Given the wealth of works published in the last 30 years which treat of Ethelred and his reign, it is rather embarassing that the reference list for this article is so sparse. Many of the articles from the Millenary Conference book altered the way historians perceive his reign; most of these articles should show up in the Wiki entry. Above all, the following work could not be referenced enough, I think: Simon Keynes, The Diplomas of King Æthelred ‘The Unready’, 978-1016: A Study in their Use as Historical Evidence, Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life and Thought 3, vol. 13 (Cambridge, 1980). Also, the method of reference is uneven and unstandardized. I intend to contribute what I can to the bibliography, though help would be appreciated.
Last, has anyone checked the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (under “Æthelred II [Ethelred; known as Ethelred the Unready] (c.966x8–1016)”)? Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 14:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I am fascinated by the legislative achievements during Ethelred's reign, particularly in how the king collaborated with Wulfstan II, Archbishop of York, in the promotion of secular and ecclesiastical law. We remember that Wulfstan is famed for composing one of the most interesting 'documents' from this period, the Sermo Lupi ad Anglos, which (in one of the versions) alludes to and strongly condemns Ethelred's brief expulsion from the kingdom. The fact that Wulfstan, who seems to have had ambiguous feelings about Ethelred as king, nevertheless upheld his right to rule, and supposedly helped arrange to have him re-instated after his brief exile, suggests that not everyone was quick to condemn the King as an utterly deperate case.
The laws that Wulfstan drew up for Ethelred are like few other Anglo-Saxon legal codes. They are highly rhetorical and call for a sort of pan-English devotion to correct practice of the Christian faith as a method of opposing the Danish 'scourge' (sent, Wulfstan says, as retribution from God for the wicked contemporary customs of the English). Yet they are also innovative in terms of their more standard legal pronouncements, like coinage, defence, etc. (these I think are already mentioned briefly in the Wiki entry - they could be expanded upon). That a reign supposedly filled with governmental incompetance was able to see through such legislatiove reforms (albeit only with aid of a remarkable Archbishop's) speaks to our overly-simplified view of the situation.
Further, how does St. Brice's day get only cursory mention in this article? Whatever our feelings about it, it was a major event in the reign of Ethelred. That something this drastic, momentous, and (presumably) far-reaching could be pulled off surreptitiously by the King and his witan again suggests a different picture of Ethelred than as a king who held the reins of government by a thread. and, agains, it seems relevant that Wulfstan was promoted to the archbishopric of YORK in this year (Jon Wilcox has an article exploring this connection). Last, with Wulfstan as (probably) the most important political figure in the north of England 1002-16, a region which was thoroughly populated with Danes and Norwegians, surely more can be said of his role in Ethelred's conflict with the Danish invasions. Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 15:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I have forgotten where I read it (it may have been Keynes' book on the Diplomas, or Patrcik Wormald's on Making English Law), but I believe that the notion that the jury had its origins in the juridical practices of the Anglo-Saxons is now out of fashion. Also, as has been mentioned above, the fact that the "Grand Jury Handbook" is cited here is laughable. Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 15:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
(undid indent)
Not sure Williams would be "uncareful" about anything, exactly - is she just reflecting current thinking? But you're the one digging into it, not me! ;o) Maybe a good idea for a new section for legal history, as it seems to be an issue - I'd just be careful not to make it unwieldy, & check that it isn't covered more fully under some more "legal" article - maybe you have? Admittedly I haven't thought about it for more than a millisecond, but isn't there at least a conceptual link between A-S jurors, & juries...? There's lots of subcutaneous continuity between A-S & A-N institutions, e.g. Domesday Book couldn't have been written w/o pre-existing A-S admin... Just thinking out loud, really, in case it helps. And, I'd be surprised if those Old English law codes aren't available in good, modern English translation somewhere...? EHD I...? Cheers. Nortonius ( talk) 23:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I propose making a new section for discussion of legal matters pertaining to Ethelred's reign. It's beginning to look like much of the matter in the "Lagacy" section is legal-ish. To clean things up a bit, I think we should separate all the discussion of legal matters (except perhaps the jury section) to its own section. Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 23:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
What needs to be done to satisfy the copy-editing alert? Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 20:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
When (?and where) did Ethelered marry his respective wives? Why did his first marriage end (death; divorce)? How did he manage to snag a girl like Emma (i.e. what arrangements were made with Normandy)? Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 12:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of marriages under Ethelred he is said to have had a daughter Aelfgifu who married Uchtred the Bold, yet under the Uchtred heading there is no mention of Aelfgifu only an Ecgfrida whom he put aside so he could marry Sige. Have no idea where else to put this question. So who did Uchtred the Bold marry? was it a daughter of Ethelred? Is this an incorrect entry?
Strathbrook (
talk) 23:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
@ Strathbrook: This is very late, but I've lately been researching specifically that family for a project - my notes mention Uhtred's wife as being Aelfgifu, daughter of King Aethelred. I have found a source (secondary) as Kappell, William E. from his work The Norman Conquest of the North (1979). I am assuming he was working from a primary source or sources. Momspack4 ( talk) 19:25, 1 August 2019 (UTC)Momspack4
Shouldn't this article be called Aethelred the Unready? As it is an article primarily concerning England, surely British English should be used, which leaves in ligatures (eg. Archaeology vs. Archeology, Manoeuver vs. Maneuver) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.67.44 ( talk) 19:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The previous version of this article lists an additional possible daughter, Aethelreda, married to Gospatric, Earl of Northumbria, and the article on Gospatrick states this as definite. However, she is not shown in Barlow's family tree, and the DNB article on Gospatrick at http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/11110/?back=,50322 says that the name of his wife is unknown. I have therefore deleted her from both articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dudley Miles ( talk • contribs) 23:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Ælfweard is listed as an undoubted monarch and Harold Godwinson as a disputed one. This is surely the wrong way round, as the Wikipedia entries for both make clear. Dudley Miles ( talk) 23:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Recently the file File:Ethelred the Unready.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. This is the full image that the current lead image is a detail of. Dcoetzee 18:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 13:51, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Æthelred the Unready → Ethelred the Unready – We should follow the Wikipedia convention to use people's common names. This sort of typographical ligature is no longer in everyday use in English. The present title is an awkward halfway house, being neither his common name using normal current English spelling, nor his actual contemporary name in Old English, which was Æþelræd. PatGallacher ( talk) 13:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
When quoting from early modern sources, normalize disused glyphs and ligatures to modern usage when doing so will not change or obscure the meaning of the text. Examples of such changes include the following: æ→ae, œ→oe, ſ→s, and ye→the.
In the section Conflict with the Danes the article currently says, "A period of six years then passed before, in 988, another coastal attack is recorded as having taken place to the south-west, though here a famous battle was fought between the invaders and the thegns of Devon" (my emphasis).
This is not encyclopedic. We shouldn't be saying, "a famous battle" without saying which battle it was, and if it is that famous why is there not a link to the Wikipedia article about it? I "think" the battle referred to was at
Watchet, but that page says the raids took place in 987 and 997 not, as this article suggests in 988 so I'm not sure.
I found a link but I can't post it because the website is blacklisted, that seems to be the source of the above editor's information. It says the "huge battle" was in 988, that several Devon nobles were killed. Meanwhile, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle says for the year 987, "This year was the port of Watchet plundered" and for the year 997, "Then went they up at Watchet, and there much evil wrought in burning and manslaughter" which would seem to suggest that if any "Devon nobles" were murdered (Watchet is not in Devon, but in Somerset) it would have been in 997 not in 987 or 988. Anglo-Saxon history is not my specialist subject so I might be wrong about which one it is but either way we can't just say, "a famous battle" and leave it at that.
Cottonshirt
τ 07:10, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I question the utility of having the lengthy passages in Old English. If the language is unintelligible to a majority of readers, why include it? Mikeroetto ( talk) 18:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
"...because the present-day meaning of "unready" no longer resembles its ancient counterpart, this translation disguises the meaning of the Old English term."
It's a minor point, but unrǣd would be 'unrede'/'unredy' in Modern English, not 'unready'. The word rǣd(e), n. "counsel, advice", adj. "advised, decided", is etymologically distinct from rǣde, "ready, prepared", the former going back to Proto-Germanic *rēdaz/*rēdiz, "counsel"/"deciding", and the latter to *raidijaz, "arranged, prepared".
As mentioned earlier in the article, it's a mistranslation. Anglom ( talk) 19:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
This part of the article is extremely badly written. Looks to me like it is the result of some kind of high-school project or the like.
This is unreferenced nonsense. All that needs to be pointed out is that "unrede" does not mean "unready" (as in "ill-prepared") but "bad counsel" or "folly". The "royal council" doesn't enter into it, the king is named, posthumously, for being "foolish". No evidence is shown that any historians have ("unfortunately" -- who writes like this?) misunderstood the epithet in the slightest. -- dab (𒁳) 13:36, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
That the nobles forced upon King Ethelred to support his return in 1014? I can't find them anywhere on the net. Seeing how constitutionally important they are, this surprises me. Solri89 ( talk) 15:32, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
That article starts its history after this and even the village article does not mention Ethelred. Aoeuus ( talk) 19:15, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Momspack4 thanks for your recent edits, but I am doubtful about some points. I do not think Elizabeth Norton is the best source. She appears to be mainly a Tudor specialist judging by the list of books she has written, whereas there are two first rate biographies of Æthelred by specialists on Anglo-Saxon England, Ann Williams and Levi Roach. The point that Ælfthryth acted as regent is a useful addition and is confirmed by Roach, but it is unclear whether she was sole regent - Roach also refers to "sometime regents (above all Æthelwold)" (p. 138). The statement that she rarely visited court afterwards is very dubious. She was banished after Æthelwold's death in 984 but she was restored to favour in 993 and brought up Æthelred's eldest son. Simon Keynes's analysis of Anglo-Saxon charters shows that she frequently attested them between 993 and her death c. 1001. Dudley Miles ( talk) 09:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Dudley Miles Thanks for your input. I think the nature of studying the Anglo-Saxon period is that there are varying primary sources, with spotty information, and each researcher has to put together his or her own picture of it in the end. I also have some issues withe Elizabeth Norton; however, even though she is a Tudor scholar, she has a special interest in Ælfthryth and has studied her life enough to write a full length biography. Like her, I am concerned that Ælfthryth's role is often underestimated by modern scholars who don't realize the power an Anglo-Saxon (pre-Norman) queen could have had. The idea that she stayed away for a decade is based upon both the fact that she drops off witness lists (from being listed directly behind the king) and from mentions of her being in residence at other places. You're right that she did appear again years later - although never in the political role she had formerly - and our text could be amended to reflect that. Also, I chose to list Elizabeth Norton as a source not only because she wrote a biography but because if one were to list individual primary sources, it would be quite cumbersome for an article, and her text is based upon those sources. I appreciate that you were working from biographies of Æthelred, but I would suggest that many bios of a male don't do thorough research into the women around him; it's a common problem. As a woman reading, I noted that the role of Ælfthryth, which was considerable, had been neglected. I believe, as you seem to, that she "ruled" in conjunction with the bishop while her son was still a child. If you study her behavior during the reign of her husband, you realize that she was intelligent, educated, politically savvy, and quite willing to insert herself. During Edgar's reign she witnessed many charters behind the king and acted as forespeca - as sort of legal advocate, between defendant and crown. There is no reason why she would have stood mildly by when given the chance to rule the country for her child. She also had a longtime friendly relationship with the bishop. So it's a logical conclusion for Norton and others to make that she was heavily involved as regent.
I have found two additional sources that speak about her as regent for Æthelred. Nick Higham speaks of it in The Death of Anglo Saxon England; also, Ryan Lavell speaks of it in his biography of Æthelred. If you would like I can add those in as sources as well. Let me know what you think. I see you have a real love of this subject, and like me, perhaps you feel a deep responsibility to these people who one thousand years away, can't speak for themselves. We need to get it right, and two heads are better than one. :) Momspack4 ( talk) 19:13, 1 August 2019 (UTC)Momspack
By the way, you pose such a fascinating question as to why Aelfgifu, Athelred's queen, wasn't raising her own child. However, as you know, fostering was common. But that would not have been with one's mother, one would think - that would be missing the point of it. I wonder if she was ill, or just didn't like mothering. Ha! The answer is lost in time... Momspack4 ( talk) 03:36, 3 August 2019 (UTC)Momspack4
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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 13, 2006, November 13, 2007, November 13, 2009, November 13, 2010, November 13, 2011, November 13, 2014, November 13, 2016, and November 13, 2019. |
According to Eilert Ekwall, Ethel means 'protection' rather than the broader 'noble'. So keep the semiotic ring-a-ding-ding-ding, but the name means 'protection advice uncounselled,' apt for his era. 64.65.73.178 ( talk) 21:22, 13 June 2010 (UTC) ==Untitled== OK, so why was he called "The Uncounselled", then? Bad habit of holding his hands over his ears and singing "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean" when his advisors spoke? -- Paul Drye
According to [1], it means "unwise". -- DrBob
There are potentially n different translations out there, and n-1 of them are historically inaccurate if not actually wrong from a linguistic point of view. However, and I was hoping not to have to go into this, it's actually a longer article than most in the Wikipedia in itself, the word in AS is unraede, "without counsel" meaning that (to paraphrase Monty Python) in the ultimate balance, when all was said and done, at the final whistle, at a time of major national crisis he had absolutely no answers whatsoever for the problems which confronted him, and, moreover, as those who gave hime the nickname would have been fully aware, nobody on which he could rely to turn to for those answers. It is an Anglo-Saxon form of joke, an ironic pun, and is a) exceptionally cruel and b) searingly accurate. It doesn't just mean he was unprepared, it means he didn't have a fecking clue.
PS: DrBob: you don't think that the chinless wonders might be being somewhat diplomatic about their forebears in their website do you, by any chance? sjc
mmmmm, royal nomenclature. My favorite English mistranslation is Philip the Fair of France. He's Philip-the-Goodlooking-who-EVERYONE-hated. Traditional nomenclature is a snare and a delusion, but how else are we going to keep Ethelred the U. separate from the other Ethelred(s)? --MichaelTinkler
My sentiments entirely. I was going to bang him in as Ethelred II but no-one would have the foggiest who Ethelred II was (I had to figure it myself). sjc
Best def I've seen is "poorly advised", tho I doubt "unready" will unstick... Trekphiler 11:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Adraeus, what is it about the article that needs to be cleaned up? Adam Bishop 8 July 2005 15:13 (UTC)
Well it's cleaned up now, I hope. Adam Bishop 20:21, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
What is omitted in this article is an examination of the serious character flaws that caused his reign to be one of the most disastrous in English history. He seemed unable to retain the loyalty of almost any of his subjects and was continually betrayed by various of his commanders. He was inconsistent and forgave those who betrayed him only to have them betray him again. He often rewarded his enemies and punished his followers. Instead of having his rivals executed by royal decree he had them assassinated in underhand ways so they never knew where they stood. He made war on civilians and ran away from battle with proper armies.
Much of this can be understood- though not forgiven- by reference to his childhood. He appears to have witnessed the brutal assassination of his half-brother King
Edward the Martyr by his own mother when aged 10. He is reported to have cried inconsolably so his mother beat him with candles. This gave him a lifelong aversion to candles and might be expected to lead to a
borderline personality disorder, which is borne out by his later behaviour. It also meant that he could not stand candles in his presence- so what did he do when it got dark? He is said to have been very lazy and slept a lot, but he also had a vast number of children.
—
Streona 21:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Good work on a basic outline of his life, but the article is mostly unsourced and could certainly contain more details in most facets of his life. Perhaps most lacking is any discussion of where "Unready" came from. Even though the translation of "Unraede" is in question, there should still be some description of the term and why he was not, in fact, Unready. — Cuivi é nen 15:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this page is pretty good. In modern Dutch, a sister language of Old English, the naming pun still works: Edelraad Onraad. And so in German: Adelrat Unrat. I guess you have to viscerally "get" the joke to appreciate that the explanations offered by page writer and above posters are correct.
As pointed out above, there is some confusion about Ethelred's wives. The text gives three, Elflaed with a broken link, Elgifu with a link to a woman born born in 997 and had two children, and yet by 1002 he is married to Emma of Normandy. The summary box lists only the last two wives with the same wrong link for Elgifu. Dudleymiles 17:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Please correct the name of Aelgifu to Aelflaed, per this link showing her marriage to Ethelred the Unready. On the other hand, Emma of Normandy adopted the name of Aelgifu when she married Ethelred. On the sidebar of Ethelred's article, please separate the children - firstly to Aelflaed, then secondly to Emma (she had Alfred, Edward and Goda), all other children from Aelflaed under Ethelred. Sundehul 1 Dec 2007.
In the last few hours, the 'II' in Ethelred II has been removed, with some insistence. The editor in question argues that this enumeration is spurious and incorrect, and adduces the examples of the three pre-Conquest kings of England called 'Edward'. I have countered that this enumeration is in fact found in fundamental historiography outside the confines of Wikipedia, e.g. in Stafford, P., Unification and Conquest, Edward Arnold, 1989, index, and so is not spurious; and would argue that, within the context of Anglo-Saxon kingship, it is both correct and useful. Also, I would say that the argument regarding kings called 'Edward' does not apply, since there are no post-Conquest kings called 'Æthelred' (or however you want to spell it). I have also indicated that, as this enumeration has been present on Ethelred's page since 2001, through a large number of edits, the consensus appears already to be in favour of its inclusion. At the moment, I don't want to pursue this any further with the editor in question, but I invite interested comments here. Nortonius ( talk) 11:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Given the wealth of works published in the last 30 years which treat of Ethelred and his reign, it is rather embarassing that the reference list for this article is so sparse. Many of the articles from the Millenary Conference book altered the way historians perceive his reign; most of these articles should show up in the Wiki entry. Above all, the following work could not be referenced enough, I think: Simon Keynes, The Diplomas of King Æthelred ‘The Unready’, 978-1016: A Study in their Use as Historical Evidence, Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life and Thought 3, vol. 13 (Cambridge, 1980). Also, the method of reference is uneven and unstandardized. I intend to contribute what I can to the bibliography, though help would be appreciated.
Last, has anyone checked the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (under “Æthelred II [Ethelred; known as Ethelred the Unready] (c.966x8–1016)”)? Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 14:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I am fascinated by the legislative achievements during Ethelred's reign, particularly in how the king collaborated with Wulfstan II, Archbishop of York, in the promotion of secular and ecclesiastical law. We remember that Wulfstan is famed for composing one of the most interesting 'documents' from this period, the Sermo Lupi ad Anglos, which (in one of the versions) alludes to and strongly condemns Ethelred's brief expulsion from the kingdom. The fact that Wulfstan, who seems to have had ambiguous feelings about Ethelred as king, nevertheless upheld his right to rule, and supposedly helped arrange to have him re-instated after his brief exile, suggests that not everyone was quick to condemn the King as an utterly deperate case.
The laws that Wulfstan drew up for Ethelred are like few other Anglo-Saxon legal codes. They are highly rhetorical and call for a sort of pan-English devotion to correct practice of the Christian faith as a method of opposing the Danish 'scourge' (sent, Wulfstan says, as retribution from God for the wicked contemporary customs of the English). Yet they are also innovative in terms of their more standard legal pronouncements, like coinage, defence, etc. (these I think are already mentioned briefly in the Wiki entry - they could be expanded upon). That a reign supposedly filled with governmental incompetance was able to see through such legislatiove reforms (albeit only with aid of a remarkable Archbishop's) speaks to our overly-simplified view of the situation.
Further, how does St. Brice's day get only cursory mention in this article? Whatever our feelings about it, it was a major event in the reign of Ethelred. That something this drastic, momentous, and (presumably) far-reaching could be pulled off surreptitiously by the King and his witan again suggests a different picture of Ethelred than as a king who held the reins of government by a thread. and, agains, it seems relevant that Wulfstan was promoted to the archbishopric of YORK in this year (Jon Wilcox has an article exploring this connection). Last, with Wulfstan as (probably) the most important political figure in the north of England 1002-16, a region which was thoroughly populated with Danes and Norwegians, surely more can be said of his role in Ethelred's conflict with the Danish invasions. Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 15:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I have forgotten where I read it (it may have been Keynes' book on the Diplomas, or Patrcik Wormald's on Making English Law), but I believe that the notion that the jury had its origins in the juridical practices of the Anglo-Saxons is now out of fashion. Also, as has been mentioned above, the fact that the "Grand Jury Handbook" is cited here is laughable. Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 15:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
(undid indent)
Not sure Williams would be "uncareful" about anything, exactly - is she just reflecting current thinking? But you're the one digging into it, not me! ;o) Maybe a good idea for a new section for legal history, as it seems to be an issue - I'd just be careful not to make it unwieldy, & check that it isn't covered more fully under some more "legal" article - maybe you have? Admittedly I haven't thought about it for more than a millisecond, but isn't there at least a conceptual link between A-S jurors, & juries...? There's lots of subcutaneous continuity between A-S & A-N institutions, e.g. Domesday Book couldn't have been written w/o pre-existing A-S admin... Just thinking out loud, really, in case it helps. And, I'd be surprised if those Old English law codes aren't available in good, modern English translation somewhere...? EHD I...? Cheers. Nortonius ( talk) 23:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I propose making a new section for discussion of legal matters pertaining to Ethelred's reign. It's beginning to look like much of the matter in the "Lagacy" section is legal-ish. To clean things up a bit, I think we should separate all the discussion of legal matters (except perhaps the jury section) to its own section. Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 23:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
What needs to be done to satisfy the copy-editing alert? Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 20:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
When (?and where) did Ethelered marry his respective wives? Why did his first marriage end (death; divorce)? How did he manage to snag a girl like Emma (i.e. what arrangements were made with Normandy)? Eltheodigraeardgesece ( talk) 12:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of marriages under Ethelred he is said to have had a daughter Aelfgifu who married Uchtred the Bold, yet under the Uchtred heading there is no mention of Aelfgifu only an Ecgfrida whom he put aside so he could marry Sige. Have no idea where else to put this question. So who did Uchtred the Bold marry? was it a daughter of Ethelred? Is this an incorrect entry?
Strathbrook (
talk) 23:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
@ Strathbrook: This is very late, but I've lately been researching specifically that family for a project - my notes mention Uhtred's wife as being Aelfgifu, daughter of King Aethelred. I have found a source (secondary) as Kappell, William E. from his work The Norman Conquest of the North (1979). I am assuming he was working from a primary source or sources. Momspack4 ( talk) 19:25, 1 August 2019 (UTC)Momspack4
Shouldn't this article be called Aethelred the Unready? As it is an article primarily concerning England, surely British English should be used, which leaves in ligatures (eg. Archaeology vs. Archeology, Manoeuver vs. Maneuver) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.67.44 ( talk) 19:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The previous version of this article lists an additional possible daughter, Aethelreda, married to Gospatric, Earl of Northumbria, and the article on Gospatrick states this as definite. However, she is not shown in Barlow's family tree, and the DNB article on Gospatrick at http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/11110/?back=,50322 says that the name of his wife is unknown. I have therefore deleted her from both articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dudley Miles ( talk • contribs) 23:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Ælfweard is listed as an undoubted monarch and Harold Godwinson as a disputed one. This is surely the wrong way round, as the Wikipedia entries for both make clear. Dudley Miles ( talk) 23:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Recently the file File:Ethelred the Unready.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. This is the full image that the current lead image is a detail of. Dcoetzee 18:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 13:51, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Æthelred the Unready → Ethelred the Unready – We should follow the Wikipedia convention to use people's common names. This sort of typographical ligature is no longer in everyday use in English. The present title is an awkward halfway house, being neither his common name using normal current English spelling, nor his actual contemporary name in Old English, which was Æþelræd. PatGallacher ( talk) 13:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
When quoting from early modern sources, normalize disused glyphs and ligatures to modern usage when doing so will not change or obscure the meaning of the text. Examples of such changes include the following: æ→ae, œ→oe, ſ→s, and ye→the.
In the section Conflict with the Danes the article currently says, "A period of six years then passed before, in 988, another coastal attack is recorded as having taken place to the south-west, though here a famous battle was fought between the invaders and the thegns of Devon" (my emphasis).
This is not encyclopedic. We shouldn't be saying, "a famous battle" without saying which battle it was, and if it is that famous why is there not a link to the Wikipedia article about it? I "think" the battle referred to was at
Watchet, but that page says the raids took place in 987 and 997 not, as this article suggests in 988 so I'm not sure.
I found a link but I can't post it because the website is blacklisted, that seems to be the source of the above editor's information. It says the "huge battle" was in 988, that several Devon nobles were killed. Meanwhile, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle says for the year 987, "This year was the port of Watchet plundered" and for the year 997, "Then went they up at Watchet, and there much evil wrought in burning and manslaughter" which would seem to suggest that if any "Devon nobles" were murdered (Watchet is not in Devon, but in Somerset) it would have been in 997 not in 987 or 988. Anglo-Saxon history is not my specialist subject so I might be wrong about which one it is but either way we can't just say, "a famous battle" and leave it at that.
Cottonshirt
τ 07:10, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I question the utility of having the lengthy passages in Old English. If the language is unintelligible to a majority of readers, why include it? Mikeroetto ( talk) 18:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
"...because the present-day meaning of "unready" no longer resembles its ancient counterpart, this translation disguises the meaning of the Old English term."
It's a minor point, but unrǣd would be 'unrede'/'unredy' in Modern English, not 'unready'. The word rǣd(e), n. "counsel, advice", adj. "advised, decided", is etymologically distinct from rǣde, "ready, prepared", the former going back to Proto-Germanic *rēdaz/*rēdiz, "counsel"/"deciding", and the latter to *raidijaz, "arranged, prepared".
As mentioned earlier in the article, it's a mistranslation. Anglom ( talk) 19:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
This part of the article is extremely badly written. Looks to me like it is the result of some kind of high-school project or the like.
This is unreferenced nonsense. All that needs to be pointed out is that "unrede" does not mean "unready" (as in "ill-prepared") but "bad counsel" or "folly". The "royal council" doesn't enter into it, the king is named, posthumously, for being "foolish". No evidence is shown that any historians have ("unfortunately" -- who writes like this?) misunderstood the epithet in the slightest. -- dab (𒁳) 13:36, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
That the nobles forced upon King Ethelred to support his return in 1014? I can't find them anywhere on the net. Seeing how constitutionally important they are, this surprises me. Solri89 ( talk) 15:32, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
That article starts its history after this and even the village article does not mention Ethelred. Aoeuus ( talk) 19:15, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Momspack4 thanks for your recent edits, but I am doubtful about some points. I do not think Elizabeth Norton is the best source. She appears to be mainly a Tudor specialist judging by the list of books she has written, whereas there are two first rate biographies of Æthelred by specialists on Anglo-Saxon England, Ann Williams and Levi Roach. The point that Ælfthryth acted as regent is a useful addition and is confirmed by Roach, but it is unclear whether she was sole regent - Roach also refers to "sometime regents (above all Æthelwold)" (p. 138). The statement that she rarely visited court afterwards is very dubious. She was banished after Æthelwold's death in 984 but she was restored to favour in 993 and brought up Æthelred's eldest son. Simon Keynes's analysis of Anglo-Saxon charters shows that she frequently attested them between 993 and her death c. 1001. Dudley Miles ( talk) 09:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Dudley Miles Thanks for your input. I think the nature of studying the Anglo-Saxon period is that there are varying primary sources, with spotty information, and each researcher has to put together his or her own picture of it in the end. I also have some issues withe Elizabeth Norton; however, even though she is a Tudor scholar, she has a special interest in Ælfthryth and has studied her life enough to write a full length biography. Like her, I am concerned that Ælfthryth's role is often underestimated by modern scholars who don't realize the power an Anglo-Saxon (pre-Norman) queen could have had. The idea that she stayed away for a decade is based upon both the fact that she drops off witness lists (from being listed directly behind the king) and from mentions of her being in residence at other places. You're right that she did appear again years later - although never in the political role she had formerly - and our text could be amended to reflect that. Also, I chose to list Elizabeth Norton as a source not only because she wrote a biography but because if one were to list individual primary sources, it would be quite cumbersome for an article, and her text is based upon those sources. I appreciate that you were working from biographies of Æthelred, but I would suggest that many bios of a male don't do thorough research into the women around him; it's a common problem. As a woman reading, I noted that the role of Ælfthryth, which was considerable, had been neglected. I believe, as you seem to, that she "ruled" in conjunction with the bishop while her son was still a child. If you study her behavior during the reign of her husband, you realize that she was intelligent, educated, politically savvy, and quite willing to insert herself. During Edgar's reign she witnessed many charters behind the king and acted as forespeca - as sort of legal advocate, between defendant and crown. There is no reason why she would have stood mildly by when given the chance to rule the country for her child. She also had a longtime friendly relationship with the bishop. So it's a logical conclusion for Norton and others to make that she was heavily involved as regent.
I have found two additional sources that speak about her as regent for Æthelred. Nick Higham speaks of it in The Death of Anglo Saxon England; also, Ryan Lavell speaks of it in his biography of Æthelred. If you would like I can add those in as sources as well. Let me know what you think. I see you have a real love of this subject, and like me, perhaps you feel a deep responsibility to these people who one thousand years away, can't speak for themselves. We need to get it right, and two heads are better than one. :) Momspack4 ( talk) 19:13, 1 August 2019 (UTC)Momspack
By the way, you pose such a fascinating question as to why Aelfgifu, Athelred's queen, wasn't raising her own child. However, as you know, fostering was common. But that would not have been with one's mother, one would think - that would be missing the point of it. I wonder if she was ill, or just didn't like mothering. Ha! The answer is lost in time... Momspack4 ( talk) 03:36, 3 August 2019 (UTC)Momspack4