Classical music: Compositions | |||||||
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A fact from Zueignung appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 24 January 2016 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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Blimey, exactly how dire is this translation? Don't bother wondering, it's 100% shite. MinorProphet ( talk) 18:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Sie trug den Becher in der Hand
— Ihr Kinn und Mund glich seinem Rand —,
So leicht und sicher war ihr Gang,
Kein Tropfen aus dem Becher sprang.
So leicht und fest war seine Hand:
Er ritt auf einem jungen Pferde,
Und mit nachlässiger Gebärde
Erzwang er, daß es zitternd stand.
Jedoch, wenn er aus ihrer Hand
Den leichten Becher nehmen sollte,
So war es beiden allzuschwer;
Denn beide bebten sie so sehr,
Daß keine Hand die andre fand
Und dunkler Wein am Boden rollte.
Zueignung | Fairly literal translation |
---|---|
Ja, du weißt es, teure Seele, |
Well you know it, dearest soul, |
Thank you. I can't judge the English, but have some concerns regarding the meaning looking at the German:
And how, MinorProphet, would you render the title which says that the singer gives himself to the person addressed? Literally Dedication, and perhaps best because carrying the same ambiguity. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:02, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Hi,
Gerda, many many thoughts and few conclusions. I've updated the "heilig, heilig" line in the article.
1. You may have come across Mark Twain's humorous and affectionate
The Awful German Language in which he uses 'Schlag' and 'Zug' as examples of German words capable of multiple interpretations, often depending on the context. 'Becher' is a bit like that: For Becher, Leo Online has beaker, cup, goblet, mug, tumbler, can, bowl, Crater (astron.) = Greek krater, (which I had also been wondering about), chalice (goblet, poet., hist.) and the
Bell Beaker culture. There is also the verb 'bechern', to booze.
2. I thought that Amethyst was green-ish, like emerald, (now I know it's violet-purple): but interestingly in the lede of that article I read that "The ancient Greeks wore amethyst, and carved drinking vessels from it in the belief that it would prevent intoxication." And later in the article, "Anglican bishops wear an episcopal ring often set with an amethyst, an allusion to the description of the Apostles as "not drunk" at Pentecost in Acts 2:15.[19]" Amethyst is indeed derived from the Greek (Eytmonline) for "not drunk", ie "sober". Learn something every day, eh?
3 Taking the above two points together, I personally incline towards one of the more poetical or archaic meanings such as goblet or even chalice, if we were to cautiously move towards the more religious aspects of Gilm's lyric, ("heilg, heilig"): but I feel that an ordinary 'cup' doesn't quite match up with the extended mythical/esoteric implications of amethyst discussed above. I would possibly go for 'vessel', Gefäß, as a somewhat poetical but indeterminate receptacle, but sadly it doesn't come within any meaning of 'Becher' if we are being literal.
3. As far as I can see, 'Zecher' is reveller, carouser, wassailer (mostly deliberately archaic these days, obsolete, usually only used at Christmas time in the UK) and toper (a bit unusual, but definitely a habitual and heavy drinker). Which tends to indicate that the "Amethysten-Becher" is the exact opposite of whatever 'Zecher' implies. By drinking from it, the poet is showing that he is not drunk at all, but sober and clear-headed about what is happening. And in fact, by drinking this Tristan-like potion, he positively abjures freedom, and throws it away in exchange for amorous (married?) bliss. This is what happened to Strauss, but the song was written in 1885, and he only met Pauline in 1887 according the WP article.
If you don't like reveller, then "der Freiheit Zecher" could be rendered as "freedom's toper", if we incline towards the farther end of the drunken scale, but 'toper' just seems completely wrong here, and it just doesn't have the connotations of merry-making at a Wiener heuriger, (a bit like the opening of The Student of Prague) neither do I feel that it applies to a pissed-up staggering lout barely capable of speech. Personally I would go with something like "drunk with freedom" as a rhythmical 'language-mediation' rendering, but if we are going to be literal we ought to use two nouns as in the original.
4.And then "die Bösen", which can also mean "the bad guys", or "evil fairies" or "wicked spirits", which I tend towards. I don't think that any sense of 'evil' is intended here, otherwise how does the "lyrisches Ich" sink holy, holy, into her embrace? In fact, what do these two lines actually mean? What could she have conjured that made him sink etc. And - grammatically - does "darin" actually refer to the drink/cup?
5. "Habe Dank" is probably best rendered as a straightforward "Have thanks" - again, my own "Have my thanks" is an attempt to reproduce the original rhythm, and not simply the words alone.
6. I wondered where Gilm's original poem appeared, and the fabulous LiederNet Archive tells us: It's in Volume I of the collected works (NB simply appalling scan), and shows that isn't in the Last Songs at all, but from Im Frühling. Here's the original:
Ja, du weißt es, theure Seele,
Daß ich fern von dir mich quäle,
Liebe macht die Herzen krank,
Habe Dank.
Hielt ich nicht, der Freiheit Zecher,
Hoch den Amethisten-Becher
Und du segnetest den Trank,
Habe Dank.
Und beschworst darin die Bösen,
Bis ich, was ich nie gewesen,
Heilig an das Herz dir sank,
Habe Dank.
The LeiderNet article points out that Strauss made two alterations to the poem "Einst hielt ich" is substituted for "Hielt ich nicht", and "Heilig, heilig an's Herz" replaces "Heilig an das Herz".
I suspect that Gilm's original "Hielt ich nicht" has connotations of "Did I not hold", with a missing question mark, otherwise it doesn't seem to make any sense. Perhaps you could enlighten me further. The original single "Heilig" can be translated as 'holy', but also 'sacred', and even 'saintly', and Strauss' repetition at least blurs whatever Gilm actually intended.
7. A research paper for someone's M. Mus Scholarly Program Notes on the Graduate Voice Recital of Clinton Keith Wark p. 27 says it was originally written in the key of E. (for the infobox).
8. Off-topic: I watched the film of Der zerbrochener Krug last night again (have you ever seen it?), and it's even funnier than the first time. In it the Ratsherr slices some bread sideways in his hands with an ordinary cooking knife as easily as if it were cheese. Would you happen to know what sort of bread this might be? There's no way you can do that with any sort of English bread I have ever come across. Mit herzlichen Grüßen, MinorProphet ( talk) 19:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Just looking as if from scratch, without reading the above again, but assuming (as said elsewhere) the by "he" I mean the singer (who could also be a woman) and by "she" the one addressed (who could also be a man):
"Devotion" seems to be an erroneous translation. It would be a good translation for "Zuneigung", but not "Zueignung". Ds77 ( talk) 21:20, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Classical music: Compositions | |||||||
|
A fact from Zueignung appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 24 January 2016 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
Blimey, exactly how dire is this translation? Don't bother wondering, it's 100% shite. MinorProphet ( talk) 18:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Sie trug den Becher in der Hand
— Ihr Kinn und Mund glich seinem Rand —,
So leicht und sicher war ihr Gang,
Kein Tropfen aus dem Becher sprang.
So leicht und fest war seine Hand:
Er ritt auf einem jungen Pferde,
Und mit nachlässiger Gebärde
Erzwang er, daß es zitternd stand.
Jedoch, wenn er aus ihrer Hand
Den leichten Becher nehmen sollte,
So war es beiden allzuschwer;
Denn beide bebten sie so sehr,
Daß keine Hand die andre fand
Und dunkler Wein am Boden rollte.
Zueignung | Fairly literal translation |
---|---|
Ja, du weißt es, teure Seele, |
Well you know it, dearest soul, |
Thank you. I can't judge the English, but have some concerns regarding the meaning looking at the German:
And how, MinorProphet, would you render the title which says that the singer gives himself to the person addressed? Literally Dedication, and perhaps best because carrying the same ambiguity. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:02, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Hi,
Gerda, many many thoughts and few conclusions. I've updated the "heilig, heilig" line in the article.
1. You may have come across Mark Twain's humorous and affectionate
The Awful German Language in which he uses 'Schlag' and 'Zug' as examples of German words capable of multiple interpretations, often depending on the context. 'Becher' is a bit like that: For Becher, Leo Online has beaker, cup, goblet, mug, tumbler, can, bowl, Crater (astron.) = Greek krater, (which I had also been wondering about), chalice (goblet, poet., hist.) and the
Bell Beaker culture. There is also the verb 'bechern', to booze.
2. I thought that Amethyst was green-ish, like emerald, (now I know it's violet-purple): but interestingly in the lede of that article I read that "The ancient Greeks wore amethyst, and carved drinking vessels from it in the belief that it would prevent intoxication." And later in the article, "Anglican bishops wear an episcopal ring often set with an amethyst, an allusion to the description of the Apostles as "not drunk" at Pentecost in Acts 2:15.[19]" Amethyst is indeed derived from the Greek (Eytmonline) for "not drunk", ie "sober". Learn something every day, eh?
3 Taking the above two points together, I personally incline towards one of the more poetical or archaic meanings such as goblet or even chalice, if we were to cautiously move towards the more religious aspects of Gilm's lyric, ("heilg, heilig"): but I feel that an ordinary 'cup' doesn't quite match up with the extended mythical/esoteric implications of amethyst discussed above. I would possibly go for 'vessel', Gefäß, as a somewhat poetical but indeterminate receptacle, but sadly it doesn't come within any meaning of 'Becher' if we are being literal.
3. As far as I can see, 'Zecher' is reveller, carouser, wassailer (mostly deliberately archaic these days, obsolete, usually only used at Christmas time in the UK) and toper (a bit unusual, but definitely a habitual and heavy drinker). Which tends to indicate that the "Amethysten-Becher" is the exact opposite of whatever 'Zecher' implies. By drinking from it, the poet is showing that he is not drunk at all, but sober and clear-headed about what is happening. And in fact, by drinking this Tristan-like potion, he positively abjures freedom, and throws it away in exchange for amorous (married?) bliss. This is what happened to Strauss, but the song was written in 1885, and he only met Pauline in 1887 according the WP article.
If you don't like reveller, then "der Freiheit Zecher" could be rendered as "freedom's toper", if we incline towards the farther end of the drunken scale, but 'toper' just seems completely wrong here, and it just doesn't have the connotations of merry-making at a Wiener heuriger, (a bit like the opening of The Student of Prague) neither do I feel that it applies to a pissed-up staggering lout barely capable of speech. Personally I would go with something like "drunk with freedom" as a rhythmical 'language-mediation' rendering, but if we are going to be literal we ought to use two nouns as in the original.
4.And then "die Bösen", which can also mean "the bad guys", or "evil fairies" or "wicked spirits", which I tend towards. I don't think that any sense of 'evil' is intended here, otherwise how does the "lyrisches Ich" sink holy, holy, into her embrace? In fact, what do these two lines actually mean? What could she have conjured that made him sink etc. And - grammatically - does "darin" actually refer to the drink/cup?
5. "Habe Dank" is probably best rendered as a straightforward "Have thanks" - again, my own "Have my thanks" is an attempt to reproduce the original rhythm, and not simply the words alone.
6. I wondered where Gilm's original poem appeared, and the fabulous LiederNet Archive tells us: It's in Volume I of the collected works (NB simply appalling scan), and shows that isn't in the Last Songs at all, but from Im Frühling. Here's the original:
Ja, du weißt es, theure Seele,
Daß ich fern von dir mich quäle,
Liebe macht die Herzen krank,
Habe Dank.
Hielt ich nicht, der Freiheit Zecher,
Hoch den Amethisten-Becher
Und du segnetest den Trank,
Habe Dank.
Und beschworst darin die Bösen,
Bis ich, was ich nie gewesen,
Heilig an das Herz dir sank,
Habe Dank.
The LeiderNet article points out that Strauss made two alterations to the poem "Einst hielt ich" is substituted for "Hielt ich nicht", and "Heilig, heilig an's Herz" replaces "Heilig an das Herz".
I suspect that Gilm's original "Hielt ich nicht" has connotations of "Did I not hold", with a missing question mark, otherwise it doesn't seem to make any sense. Perhaps you could enlighten me further. The original single "Heilig" can be translated as 'holy', but also 'sacred', and even 'saintly', and Strauss' repetition at least blurs whatever Gilm actually intended.
7. A research paper for someone's M. Mus Scholarly Program Notes on the Graduate Voice Recital of Clinton Keith Wark p. 27 says it was originally written in the key of E. (for the infobox).
8. Off-topic: I watched the film of Der zerbrochener Krug last night again (have you ever seen it?), and it's even funnier than the first time. In it the Ratsherr slices some bread sideways in his hands with an ordinary cooking knife as easily as if it were cheese. Would you happen to know what sort of bread this might be? There's no way you can do that with any sort of English bread I have ever come across. Mit herzlichen Grüßen, MinorProphet ( talk) 19:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Just looking as if from scratch, without reading the above again, but assuming (as said elsewhere) the by "he" I mean the singer (who could also be a woman) and by "she" the one addressed (who could also be a man):
"Devotion" seems to be an erroneous translation. It would be a good translation for "Zuneigung", but not "Zueignung". Ds77 ( talk) 21:20, 16 February 2021 (UTC)