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In this series of edits, I removed notes that presented links. If you say that your biographee X had a certain relationship Y with an entity Z, then your note after this should normally verify this entire proposition; it shouldn't merely say something else about entity Z.
This article is essentially unreferenced, and deserves the "Unreferenced" tag, which I placed on it earlier. -- Hoary 06:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Should something about the al Anbar suicide bombing pictures and the aftermath (takedown request, unembedding by the Marines) be documented here? ( http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/14/embedded_photojournalist_accuses_us_military_of) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.125.54.65 ( talk) 19:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
This article has a strange history:
I may have missed some other examples of this.
Don't remove requests for evidence. -- Hoary ( talk) 15:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The article sources some claims to lightstalkers.org, but this site gives the impression that the biographies are written by the subjects. Indeed, a biography such as this one is written in the first person. How is lightstalkers.org a reliable source? -- Hoary ( talk) 06:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry i don't know how these thing work, i'm not a regular editor on wiki. Is this where i'm supposed to comment back to Hoary?
It is clear that Zoriah Miller's page is purely SPAM under the Speedy Deletion - spam rule, it should be blanked right away.
There is absolutely no importance to this this person to the rest of the world, he has made no contribution to photography, and 90% of what is written on that page is simply not true.
If you follow the links i added, you can see the general opinion of the photographic community about him. Like Bruno Stevens said "nobody has heard of him before 2 days ago" when he posted a noise-making controversy unto Lightstalkers.
There is no doubt it was written by him, as you can see in the original links, there are no real awards or real publications available for verification.
The only thing he is "famous" for is being kicked out of Iraq by the US military for not fulfilling his embedded contract and photographing dead American soldiers. Even these photos, were never published outside his blog. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Gskphoto (
talk •
contribs) 11:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Oops, i reacted on the wrong page, i think i got it now.
I just argued my point above. this wiki page files clearly under the speedy removal - spam terms of wikipedia. why did you remove the speedy removal request? don't you think it's justified? The only thing "Zoriah" is "known" for is his lack of professionalism and unethical behavior. how does anything in the page adhere to the wikipedia spam rules?
If you look at the links he posted on his wiki page, you'll see. not one is a real external link. what is a photojournalist with 0 publications?
Ok, Here's the full argument:
Zoriah Miller (born January 27, 1976) is a noted photojournalist SAYS WHO? and war photographer whose work has been published and exhibited extensively.NOT TRUE, WHERE IS ONE LINK? [1] Initially trained in Disaster Management and Humanitarian Aid to Developing Countries TRAINED WHERE?, he worked for international aid organizations such as the Red Cross before returning to photography after a long absence. Although working with numerous international photo agencies including World Picture News (WPN), Reporters Agency, The Image Works, and EyePress Photo Agency in China, THESE AGENCIES ARE REPS, YOU CAN SIGN UP TOO. Miller remains independent and produces his photo stories on a freelance basis.
His images of conflict in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Gaza Strip and Lebanon have been widely published NOT TRUE, 0 PUBLICATIONS AND HE IS PROUD NOT WORKING WITH THE MEDIA and have traveled to many countries around the world in museums and fine art galleries AGAIN, NOT TRUE, WHERE ARE THE LINKS TO THOSE? . Photographs that he took in Iraq of dead US Marines after a suicide bomber in Al-Karmah that he posted on his website were widely discussed and brought to light the issue of wartime censorship.[2] Contents [hide]
* 1 Awards, honors and achievements * 2 Photography * 3 Notes * 4 External links o 4.1 Video
[edit] Awards, honors and achievements
Although making a living on and off as a photographer since the age of 15, Miller's career did not fully take off until late 2005 when his work covering and following up on the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami was published by Newsweek ONE VIGNETTE PHOTO, HIS ONLY PUBLICATION SOLD BY WPN and then went on to get more than 20,000 hits daily online ON HIS BLOG. during the weeks leading up to and following the one-year anniversary of the tsunami.[3] } Soon after, he won the 2006 portfolio contest hosted by the VII Photo Agency THERE IS NO SUCH CONTEST and began submitting directly to some of the world's famous and respected publications. SENDING YOUR PHOTOS DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET PUBLISHED, EVERY PHOTO STUDENT SENDS PHOTOS TO EDITORS, WHICH USUALLY GET DELETED FROM THE SERVER RIGHT AWAY[4] [edit] Photography
With his background in disaster management and humanitarian aid, Miller specializes in documenting humanitarian crises in third world countries. He has covered disasters, critical social issues and conflict around the world and his work has been widely published in newspapers and magazines AGAIN, NOT TRUE, WHERE ARE THE LINKS TO THOSE?. About fifty percent of his time each year is devoted to doing pro bono work for aid and humanitarian organizations , often shooting photos used for fundraising and international exhibitions for subjects such as World AIDS Day. NOT TRUE, WHERE ARE THE LINKS TO THESE NGO PUBLICATIONS?
Miller's work has appeared in many publications[5] NOT TRUE He has completed assignments and freelance projects for agencies and publications in various nations.NOT TRUE HE DOES NOT WORK ON ASSIGNMENT[6]
Is this a better argument? should these details have been dealt with when this article was first published? shouldn't there be proof before allowing somsone to publish such an extensive lie about himself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gskphoto ( talk • contribs) 12:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Is there still any doubt in your mind that this page should be deleted? i understand your need to be theral, but Zoriah only won one, very minor award, and even this one is currently under review and will, most probably, be retracted soon. Which doesn't really matter, since it has been proven here beyond the Shadow of a doubt that this page does not represent Zoriah Miller. Gskphoto ( talk) 18:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
The article tells us that:
This is sourced to this web page, which actually says rather less and rather more:
Let's examine these.
I see no sign of Miller or any contest at the VII site. However, Miller does have a page here on a subsidiary site. The page says nothing about any contest.
"Photojournalist of the Year" is something conferred by NPPA. Its website is bop.nppa.org. Google does indeed turn up hits for "zoriah" at nppa.org, but nothing about any award. Here is our man's profile; this too says nothing about any award.
The WPN Most Powerful Imagery award is a fascinating one. Here's what Google comes up with for different combinations of search strings:
I have trouble believing that the WPN Most Powerful Imagery award even exists.
The combination of "songs of the people" and "award" gets millions of hits. However, "songs of the people award" gets a grand total of two, both about Miller. "Songs of the people prize", perhaps? No, no hits.
www.mondofragilis.fr/Projets/mondolibrary.net/Biographies/Zoriah is the only source for this article that at first glance looked any good to me. But now I come to examine it, it seems to be full of poppycock. Comments? -- Hoary ( talk) 15:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Are you serious? This is just ill will on your part "Hoary"! I have answered all your questions, and proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that this page is a total misrepresentation of this "obscure photographer"... as YOU put it, you even agreed on most thing. now you're not going to waste you "Real life" on it? what's the point? why do you get into it if you won't see it through? how about you let someone who actually knows something about photojournalism and photo agencies deal with this? Every link on that page is fabricated by Zoriah himself not ONE reliable link or resource to corroborate a single fact. But you still won't delete it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gskphoto ( talk • contribs) 05:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
As you said so well: "Well, nobody can provide "reliable sources" to back up a claim that a photographer has no publications or that an article has no external links. So that part of your request is rather unreasonable, antiuser." What i did prove, is that none of the external links are reliable sources, moreover, they are all generated by the subject himself, either his own websites, or his own profile on other websites. I have also proven blatant lies like a list of awards that don't exist (VII, WPN, songs of the people), and awards that do exist but he did NOT win like "photojournalist of the year". What other evidence can i present? links that say he is not a published photographer? links that say he is not respected by his peers? (I actually did that one by providing the LS link. LS is the largest professional photojournalist forum with over 30,000 members), Links that say he is not who he claims to be? what possible other link could i send you? what more proof do you need? you haven't even done so much as a minor edit or a flag to this article saying it is contested. Gskphoto ( talk) 06:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
Here are some more lies, the agencies he claims to be represented by: WPN: World Picture News, the list of photographers, Zoriah isn't on there: http://worldpicturenews.com/web/Photographers.aspx?region=NorthAmerica Reports Agency, the list of photographers, Zoriah isn't on there: http://www.reporters.be/photographers Image works is a stock agency, no assignments: http://www.theimageworks.com/au_agencydescription.php Eyepress in Hong Kong (not China) is an elusive name that's websote dropped off the face of the earth in 2006.
VII does not have an award. www.viiphoto.com Neither does WPN: www.worldpicturenews.com
I just noticed the latest revisions, but i fail to understand, especially after the revisions, why this photographer is of enough interest to have an article on wikipedia. an article riddled with lies and misinformation should be enough grounds for removal, shouldn't it? If having a exhibition in a tiny gallery in Denver is enough to have an article. Then i should have a whole book on here...
Gskphoto ( talk) 08:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
The claim that Miller worked for WPN is unsourced. His name does not appear in this or any of the others in this series of WPN's pages of photographers. I've therefore removed mention of WPN. -- Hoary ( talk) 08:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The claim that Miller worked for Reporters Agency is unsourced. His name does not appear in this list. I've therefore removed mention of Reporters Agency. -- Hoary ( talk) 08:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The (Chinese-language) website of Eyepress (whether or not the Eyepress alluded to in the article) is here. But there's very little to see.
Googling does quickly confirm what's claimed above: that an image company called Eyepress was based in Hong Kong (which you may or may not decide to call China). -- Hoary ( talk) 08:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Gskphoto: VII photo is member owned agency like Magnum. they do not have competitions, actually, no agency has competitions. I'd be surprised if VII had a competition, but (together with Hewlett Packard) Magnum certainly does have at least one: the Expression Photography Award. It's new; the first award was won by Bieke Depoorter. -- Hoary ( talk) 02:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
It's a fact, VII doesn't do contests, so it shouldn't say that he won one, even with a citation/ dubious tag. www.viiphoto.com Gskphoto ( talk) 06:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
I see what prompted the latest edits:
Very interesting, and perhaps it will later turn up as a real news story somewhere. But until then, I don't think it's usable in any way. -- Hoary ( talk) 16:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The article now tells us:
Although that's a mere forum page, it does have clear evidence that Miller was advertising this course, e.g. in a longish message signed by him and posted on 5 February. By the next day, the conversation seemed to have descended into a schoolboyish game of how high a ratio of "fuck" people could attain in their messages. On 8 February, somebody posted an image claimed to reproduce a posting by Miller elsewhere, one in which Miller defended his course. What I don't see in this thread is evidence that Miller made any change as a result of pressure from that or any other website. -- Hoary ( talk) 06:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
First, you added the assertion that Miller had a workshop, without any proof. then after i pointed that the workshop hasn't hapenned yet and wasn't planned to start for a while, you didn't remove that assertion. Now, again, you're asking for evidence that something didn't happen. The original post, on HIS website, is now gone. Miller is no longer advertising the workshop on his website, simple as that. if anyone wants to contest that, let them come forward with a link proving it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gskphoto ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
You're pointing to something you wrote in the past as an assertion?
Ok, now you're just being difficult, so do as you please, this has taken enough of my time. But just to entertain you, I'll answer your questions, and if you are the uber-editor of articles on photojournalists, you really shouldn't ask these questions. The answers are clearly: yes, yes and... absolutely! Gskphoto ( talk) 18:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
The article tells us:
However, a search at newsweek.com for the string "zoriah" brings no hits.
It's very likely that print and web differ, and this is particularly complex for Newsweek if (as I think) this has different versions for different markets. Still, the article should specify the issue of Newsweek. -- Hoary ( talk) 06:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article refencing Zoriah was not created by Zoriah and has existed for several years now. It has been edited by numerous different people, we often see edits made to the page and have no problems with them. Some have called for citations but obviously it is difficult to provide online citations to things that happened many years ago or things that are not referenced on the web (including many print publications.) However, most of the things that people are claiming can not be backed up, we can back up and would be happy to do so. We also need to contest some of the slander and misinformation that has been added to this page after the recent controversy.
We accept the fact that Zoriah's workshop in Haiti has caused a major debate and has been criticized (by some, praised by others) in the photojournalism community. What we cannot accept is Zoriah being mis quoted with things like "charging each participant $4,000 USD to experience "the life of an award-winning photojournalist" amongst those afflicted by the January earthquake". This quote has nothing to do with Zoriah's workshop offerings and should be removed immediately...as far as we know Zoriah has never said anything like this and if he did it had nothing to do with a post-disaster workshop. We also believe that the repeated using of the word "claims" is unreasonable since these "claims" are and have been supported by actual facts (once again, please reference the links below.
He has covered disasters, critical social issues and conflict around the world.[citation needed]
A quick look at any of his websites shows the vast number of areas he has worked and subjects he has covered:
www.diariesofashooter.com www.warphotographer.org www.zoriah.net
He claims that about fifty percent of his time each year is devoted to doing pro bono work for aid and humanitarian organizations,[citation needed]
How would you like us to prove this or if you want to look into our tax statements we ask that this is just removed or we can re-word it.
Zoriah's work has been exhibited around the world, not just in Denver as has been falsely written recently:
http://www.zoriah.com/exhibitionsa.html (A full list of Zoriah's exhibitions on his website
http://www.unews.utah.edu/p/?r=091509-3 (Zoriah's exhibition at the University of Utah)
http://www.zoriah.com/publicity.html (There are numerous articles, interviews and tearsheats available here to prove that Zoriah's work is widely published and exhibited.)
http://worldpicturenews.com/web/SearchResults.aspx
(Proof that Zoriah shot for WPN for a number of years. Just enter Zoriah into the search box to see the work that this agency represents. Doing the same on all of the agencies sites that host Zoriahs work will bring back similar results...including The Image Works, Reporters Agency and EyePress.)
http://www.theimageworks.com/ (Just enter Zoriah into the search box to see the work that this agency represents)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/middleeast/26censor.html (Zoriah's images from Iraq have been widely published including several in the New York Times)
http://www.battlespaceonline.org/zoriah/us-marines-killed-by-an-al-qaeda-suicide-bombing-1.shtml (Zoriah is part of the Battlespace project which has exhibited photos, including Zoriah's, around the world)
http://morepraxis.org.au/upperroom-hiv-aids/ (Zoriah's work exhibited in Australia)
http://translatingsilence.blogspot.com/ (Another exhibition Zoria was part of)
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=%22images+of+resistance%22&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=QUGGS9XDKori7AOb-82JCg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQsAQwAA (A flyer from a traveling European exhibition including Zoriah's work)
http://www.flickr.com/zoriah (here are a few photographers who dont dislike zoriah...see testimonials)
VII did have a photo contest and to varify this you can contact the managing director, and ask him the names of those who won the 2006 portfolio contest in New York City. WPN does not have a contest but their most powerful imagery list for that year included Zoriah's work so we would consider that and "Honor" and thus be acceptable in a "Honors and Awards" section.
MANY organizations, and most schools with photojournalism departments, have phtojournalist of the year awards, not just NPPA. Zoriah has never claimed, nor has anyone submitting to the Wikipeda page, that he won the NPPA award. Zoriah was name photographer of the year by Morepraxis, info on this can be found on the Morepraxis website.
Added at 05:24, 12 March 2010 by 76.15.232.67 ( talk)
We removed this piece as it keeps returning and is nothing but slander: "charging each participant $4,000 USD to experience "the life of an award-winning photojournalist" amongst those afflicted by the January earthquake". This quote has nothing to do with Zoriah's workshop offerings and should be removed immediately. If people will not follow the links to see that Zoriah's work has been exhibited around the world, we want that section removed completely. If we have time to gather all of the links necessary to prove this we will do it later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.148 ( talk) 15:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Two questions for you, IP.
First, among the changes that you made was one from
to
So you're using YouTube as the authority for an assertion that Miller appeared in this TV program. Putting aside the question of whether Youtube videos are reliable sources (and it's generally agreed that they are not), I don't see any evidence of a TV program. What am I missing?
(I could ask several more questions like this, but it's too laborious to write them all out.)
Secondly, though I as a private person refer to myself in the first person singular, you use the first person plural. Why is this? And what's your relationship to Miller? -- Hoary ( talk) 16:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I saw that there was a pending 3O for this page. While there hasn't been any actual discussion here, I'll go based on the comments left at User talk:Gskphoto#Zoriah Miller yet again. Aside from the fact that Gskphoto clearly has an axe to grind with Miller, adding dubious remarks like "claims to" and screeds like "unethical journalism" are unacceptable. This set of edits is particularly troubling due to its entire lack of reliable sourcing. If any sources could be provided to illustrate anything, then perhaps we could discuss its inclusion. But as it stands right now, text like that is wholly unacceptable. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 12:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
None of the claims made by the person who write and re-writes Zoriah's page (most probably ZOriah himself) are backed by any form of truth. None of the links put on the as refs are real sources, most don't even point to website that relate to those claims, the others are websites owned by Miller. This subject has been widely discussed a few month ago, and changes were made, but recently some changes have been made back to the way it was, apparently with Hoary's support, who's only response is a threat to block from editing.
Zoriah Miller did not win any substantial award in journalism, neither is he "widely published and exhibited", and all of that was proven in the last discussion. Yet, all these changes were made without providing a single new proof.
There is very litle doubt that this page was written by Zoriah himself, as the professional photojournalism industry regards him as a complete joke: Search Zoriah on lightstalkers.org the largest forum for photojournalists. search Zoriah on Google and you'll see comments that explain who this guy really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.25.141.184 ( talk) 16:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
You say there hasn't been a discussion here? Read the very long page above this text, every point has been addressed and proven. this article should have been deleted as blatant and fake self promo a long time ago. 125.25.141.184 ( talk) 16:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Of course i have an axe to grind with someone who is actively giving a bad name to my profession, behaves in a completely unethical manner, and spends more time self promoting himself (like wiriting Wiki articles about himself) than actually taking pictures. But besides all that? "he claims" means he claims, yet no proof has been given, it's the difference between someone's delusions about himself and reality. Read the discuccion, the "We" part could have only been written by Zoriah himself yet, when i mention reality, Hoary is more worried about his record being reverted than keeping the truth relating to this matter, so he chooses to threaten me with blocking my future edits to scare me off revertiing his changes. no 1 editor here holds absolute truth. and Wiki should always be relying on clean, crisp facts. nothing else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gskphoto ( talk • contribs) 16:24, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
The only verified facts are:
The changes were made and stayed like that for a while, but then reverted and accepted by none other than Hoary himself. Hoary: Are you related in a personal way to "Zoriah"? I doubt you would answer the question honestly if you are, but the question still remains. After making all the changes at my request after a painstaking procedure where i had to provide you several proofs about each point a few months ago, you suddenly chose to rewrite this into a glorifying article that is riddled with lies and unverified information.
One thing is sure, if you do a tiny bit of research, Zoriah is known in the industry... As the laughing stock. Gskphoto ( talk) 06:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Is this appropriate? TIA -- Tom (talk) 15:12, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
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This article was nominated for deletion on 2010-06-22. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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It is requested that an image or photograph be
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In this series of edits, I removed notes that presented links. If you say that your biographee X had a certain relationship Y with an entity Z, then your note after this should normally verify this entire proposition; it shouldn't merely say something else about entity Z.
This article is essentially unreferenced, and deserves the "Unreferenced" tag, which I placed on it earlier. -- Hoary 06:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Should something about the al Anbar suicide bombing pictures and the aftermath (takedown request, unembedding by the Marines) be documented here? ( http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/14/embedded_photojournalist_accuses_us_military_of) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.125.54.65 ( talk) 19:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
This article has a strange history:
I may have missed some other examples of this.
Don't remove requests for evidence. -- Hoary ( talk) 15:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The article sources some claims to lightstalkers.org, but this site gives the impression that the biographies are written by the subjects. Indeed, a biography such as this one is written in the first person. How is lightstalkers.org a reliable source? -- Hoary ( talk) 06:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry i don't know how these thing work, i'm not a regular editor on wiki. Is this where i'm supposed to comment back to Hoary?
It is clear that Zoriah Miller's page is purely SPAM under the Speedy Deletion - spam rule, it should be blanked right away.
There is absolutely no importance to this this person to the rest of the world, he has made no contribution to photography, and 90% of what is written on that page is simply not true.
If you follow the links i added, you can see the general opinion of the photographic community about him. Like Bruno Stevens said "nobody has heard of him before 2 days ago" when he posted a noise-making controversy unto Lightstalkers.
There is no doubt it was written by him, as you can see in the original links, there are no real awards or real publications available for verification.
The only thing he is "famous" for is being kicked out of Iraq by the US military for not fulfilling his embedded contract and photographing dead American soldiers. Even these photos, were never published outside his blog. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Gskphoto (
talk •
contribs) 11:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Oops, i reacted on the wrong page, i think i got it now.
I just argued my point above. this wiki page files clearly under the speedy removal - spam terms of wikipedia. why did you remove the speedy removal request? don't you think it's justified? The only thing "Zoriah" is "known" for is his lack of professionalism and unethical behavior. how does anything in the page adhere to the wikipedia spam rules?
If you look at the links he posted on his wiki page, you'll see. not one is a real external link. what is a photojournalist with 0 publications?
Ok, Here's the full argument:
Zoriah Miller (born January 27, 1976) is a noted photojournalist SAYS WHO? and war photographer whose work has been published and exhibited extensively.NOT TRUE, WHERE IS ONE LINK? [1] Initially trained in Disaster Management and Humanitarian Aid to Developing Countries TRAINED WHERE?, he worked for international aid organizations such as the Red Cross before returning to photography after a long absence. Although working with numerous international photo agencies including World Picture News (WPN), Reporters Agency, The Image Works, and EyePress Photo Agency in China, THESE AGENCIES ARE REPS, YOU CAN SIGN UP TOO. Miller remains independent and produces his photo stories on a freelance basis.
His images of conflict in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Gaza Strip and Lebanon have been widely published NOT TRUE, 0 PUBLICATIONS AND HE IS PROUD NOT WORKING WITH THE MEDIA and have traveled to many countries around the world in museums and fine art galleries AGAIN, NOT TRUE, WHERE ARE THE LINKS TO THOSE? . Photographs that he took in Iraq of dead US Marines after a suicide bomber in Al-Karmah that he posted on his website were widely discussed and brought to light the issue of wartime censorship.[2] Contents [hide]
* 1 Awards, honors and achievements * 2 Photography * 3 Notes * 4 External links o 4.1 Video
[edit] Awards, honors and achievements
Although making a living on and off as a photographer since the age of 15, Miller's career did not fully take off until late 2005 when his work covering and following up on the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami was published by Newsweek ONE VIGNETTE PHOTO, HIS ONLY PUBLICATION SOLD BY WPN and then went on to get more than 20,000 hits daily online ON HIS BLOG. during the weeks leading up to and following the one-year anniversary of the tsunami.[3] } Soon after, he won the 2006 portfolio contest hosted by the VII Photo Agency THERE IS NO SUCH CONTEST and began submitting directly to some of the world's famous and respected publications. SENDING YOUR PHOTOS DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET PUBLISHED, EVERY PHOTO STUDENT SENDS PHOTOS TO EDITORS, WHICH USUALLY GET DELETED FROM THE SERVER RIGHT AWAY[4] [edit] Photography
With his background in disaster management and humanitarian aid, Miller specializes in documenting humanitarian crises in third world countries. He has covered disasters, critical social issues and conflict around the world and his work has been widely published in newspapers and magazines AGAIN, NOT TRUE, WHERE ARE THE LINKS TO THOSE?. About fifty percent of his time each year is devoted to doing pro bono work for aid and humanitarian organizations , often shooting photos used for fundraising and international exhibitions for subjects such as World AIDS Day. NOT TRUE, WHERE ARE THE LINKS TO THESE NGO PUBLICATIONS?
Miller's work has appeared in many publications[5] NOT TRUE He has completed assignments and freelance projects for agencies and publications in various nations.NOT TRUE HE DOES NOT WORK ON ASSIGNMENT[6]
Is this a better argument? should these details have been dealt with when this article was first published? shouldn't there be proof before allowing somsone to publish such an extensive lie about himself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gskphoto ( talk • contribs) 12:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Is there still any doubt in your mind that this page should be deleted? i understand your need to be theral, but Zoriah only won one, very minor award, and even this one is currently under review and will, most probably, be retracted soon. Which doesn't really matter, since it has been proven here beyond the Shadow of a doubt that this page does not represent Zoriah Miller. Gskphoto ( talk) 18:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
The article tells us that:
This is sourced to this web page, which actually says rather less and rather more:
Let's examine these.
I see no sign of Miller or any contest at the VII site. However, Miller does have a page here on a subsidiary site. The page says nothing about any contest.
"Photojournalist of the Year" is something conferred by NPPA. Its website is bop.nppa.org. Google does indeed turn up hits for "zoriah" at nppa.org, but nothing about any award. Here is our man's profile; this too says nothing about any award.
The WPN Most Powerful Imagery award is a fascinating one. Here's what Google comes up with for different combinations of search strings:
I have trouble believing that the WPN Most Powerful Imagery award even exists.
The combination of "songs of the people" and "award" gets millions of hits. However, "songs of the people award" gets a grand total of two, both about Miller. "Songs of the people prize", perhaps? No, no hits.
www.mondofragilis.fr/Projets/mondolibrary.net/Biographies/Zoriah is the only source for this article that at first glance looked any good to me. But now I come to examine it, it seems to be full of poppycock. Comments? -- Hoary ( talk) 15:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Are you serious? This is just ill will on your part "Hoary"! I have answered all your questions, and proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that this page is a total misrepresentation of this "obscure photographer"... as YOU put it, you even agreed on most thing. now you're not going to waste you "Real life" on it? what's the point? why do you get into it if you won't see it through? how about you let someone who actually knows something about photojournalism and photo agencies deal with this? Every link on that page is fabricated by Zoriah himself not ONE reliable link or resource to corroborate a single fact. But you still won't delete it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gskphoto ( talk • contribs) 05:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
As you said so well: "Well, nobody can provide "reliable sources" to back up a claim that a photographer has no publications or that an article has no external links. So that part of your request is rather unreasonable, antiuser." What i did prove, is that none of the external links are reliable sources, moreover, they are all generated by the subject himself, either his own websites, or his own profile on other websites. I have also proven blatant lies like a list of awards that don't exist (VII, WPN, songs of the people), and awards that do exist but he did NOT win like "photojournalist of the year". What other evidence can i present? links that say he is not a published photographer? links that say he is not respected by his peers? (I actually did that one by providing the LS link. LS is the largest professional photojournalist forum with over 30,000 members), Links that say he is not who he claims to be? what possible other link could i send you? what more proof do you need? you haven't even done so much as a minor edit or a flag to this article saying it is contested. Gskphoto ( talk) 06:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
Here are some more lies, the agencies he claims to be represented by: WPN: World Picture News, the list of photographers, Zoriah isn't on there: http://worldpicturenews.com/web/Photographers.aspx?region=NorthAmerica Reports Agency, the list of photographers, Zoriah isn't on there: http://www.reporters.be/photographers Image works is a stock agency, no assignments: http://www.theimageworks.com/au_agencydescription.php Eyepress in Hong Kong (not China) is an elusive name that's websote dropped off the face of the earth in 2006.
VII does not have an award. www.viiphoto.com Neither does WPN: www.worldpicturenews.com
I just noticed the latest revisions, but i fail to understand, especially after the revisions, why this photographer is of enough interest to have an article on wikipedia. an article riddled with lies and misinformation should be enough grounds for removal, shouldn't it? If having a exhibition in a tiny gallery in Denver is enough to have an article. Then i should have a whole book on here...
Gskphoto ( talk) 08:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
The claim that Miller worked for WPN is unsourced. His name does not appear in this or any of the others in this series of WPN's pages of photographers. I've therefore removed mention of WPN. -- Hoary ( talk) 08:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The claim that Miller worked for Reporters Agency is unsourced. His name does not appear in this list. I've therefore removed mention of Reporters Agency. -- Hoary ( talk) 08:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The (Chinese-language) website of Eyepress (whether or not the Eyepress alluded to in the article) is here. But there's very little to see.
Googling does quickly confirm what's claimed above: that an image company called Eyepress was based in Hong Kong (which you may or may not decide to call China). -- Hoary ( talk) 08:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Gskphoto: VII photo is member owned agency like Magnum. they do not have competitions, actually, no agency has competitions. I'd be surprised if VII had a competition, but (together with Hewlett Packard) Magnum certainly does have at least one: the Expression Photography Award. It's new; the first award was won by Bieke Depoorter. -- Hoary ( talk) 02:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
It's a fact, VII doesn't do contests, so it shouldn't say that he won one, even with a citation/ dubious tag. www.viiphoto.com Gskphoto ( talk) 06:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
I see what prompted the latest edits:
Very interesting, and perhaps it will later turn up as a real news story somewhere. But until then, I don't think it's usable in any way. -- Hoary ( talk) 16:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The article now tells us:
Although that's a mere forum page, it does have clear evidence that Miller was advertising this course, e.g. in a longish message signed by him and posted on 5 February. By the next day, the conversation seemed to have descended into a schoolboyish game of how high a ratio of "fuck" people could attain in their messages. On 8 February, somebody posted an image claimed to reproduce a posting by Miller elsewhere, one in which Miller defended his course. What I don't see in this thread is evidence that Miller made any change as a result of pressure from that or any other website. -- Hoary ( talk) 06:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
First, you added the assertion that Miller had a workshop, without any proof. then after i pointed that the workshop hasn't hapenned yet and wasn't planned to start for a while, you didn't remove that assertion. Now, again, you're asking for evidence that something didn't happen. The original post, on HIS website, is now gone. Miller is no longer advertising the workshop on his website, simple as that. if anyone wants to contest that, let them come forward with a link proving it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gskphoto ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
You're pointing to something you wrote in the past as an assertion?
Ok, now you're just being difficult, so do as you please, this has taken enough of my time. But just to entertain you, I'll answer your questions, and if you are the uber-editor of articles on photojournalists, you really shouldn't ask these questions. The answers are clearly: yes, yes and... absolutely! Gskphoto ( talk) 18:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)gskphoto
The article tells us:
However, a search at newsweek.com for the string "zoriah" brings no hits.
It's very likely that print and web differ, and this is particularly complex for Newsweek if (as I think) this has different versions for different markets. Still, the article should specify the issue of Newsweek. -- Hoary ( talk) 06:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article refencing Zoriah was not created by Zoriah and has existed for several years now. It has been edited by numerous different people, we often see edits made to the page and have no problems with them. Some have called for citations but obviously it is difficult to provide online citations to things that happened many years ago or things that are not referenced on the web (including many print publications.) However, most of the things that people are claiming can not be backed up, we can back up and would be happy to do so. We also need to contest some of the slander and misinformation that has been added to this page after the recent controversy.
We accept the fact that Zoriah's workshop in Haiti has caused a major debate and has been criticized (by some, praised by others) in the photojournalism community. What we cannot accept is Zoriah being mis quoted with things like "charging each participant $4,000 USD to experience "the life of an award-winning photojournalist" amongst those afflicted by the January earthquake". This quote has nothing to do with Zoriah's workshop offerings and should be removed immediately...as far as we know Zoriah has never said anything like this and if he did it had nothing to do with a post-disaster workshop. We also believe that the repeated using of the word "claims" is unreasonable since these "claims" are and have been supported by actual facts (once again, please reference the links below.
He has covered disasters, critical social issues and conflict around the world.[citation needed]
A quick look at any of his websites shows the vast number of areas he has worked and subjects he has covered:
www.diariesofashooter.com www.warphotographer.org www.zoriah.net
He claims that about fifty percent of his time each year is devoted to doing pro bono work for aid and humanitarian organizations,[citation needed]
How would you like us to prove this or if you want to look into our tax statements we ask that this is just removed or we can re-word it.
Zoriah's work has been exhibited around the world, not just in Denver as has been falsely written recently:
http://www.zoriah.com/exhibitionsa.html (A full list of Zoriah's exhibitions on his website
http://www.unews.utah.edu/p/?r=091509-3 (Zoriah's exhibition at the University of Utah)
http://www.zoriah.com/publicity.html (There are numerous articles, interviews and tearsheats available here to prove that Zoriah's work is widely published and exhibited.)
http://worldpicturenews.com/web/SearchResults.aspx
(Proof that Zoriah shot for WPN for a number of years. Just enter Zoriah into the search box to see the work that this agency represents. Doing the same on all of the agencies sites that host Zoriahs work will bring back similar results...including The Image Works, Reporters Agency and EyePress.)
http://www.theimageworks.com/ (Just enter Zoriah into the search box to see the work that this agency represents)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/middleeast/26censor.html (Zoriah's images from Iraq have been widely published including several in the New York Times)
http://www.battlespaceonline.org/zoriah/us-marines-killed-by-an-al-qaeda-suicide-bombing-1.shtml (Zoriah is part of the Battlespace project which has exhibited photos, including Zoriah's, around the world)
http://morepraxis.org.au/upperroom-hiv-aids/ (Zoriah's work exhibited in Australia)
http://translatingsilence.blogspot.com/ (Another exhibition Zoria was part of)
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=%22images+of+resistance%22&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=QUGGS9XDKori7AOb-82JCg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQsAQwAA (A flyer from a traveling European exhibition including Zoriah's work)
http://www.flickr.com/zoriah (here are a few photographers who dont dislike zoriah...see testimonials)
VII did have a photo contest and to varify this you can contact the managing director, and ask him the names of those who won the 2006 portfolio contest in New York City. WPN does not have a contest but their most powerful imagery list for that year included Zoriah's work so we would consider that and "Honor" and thus be acceptable in a "Honors and Awards" section.
MANY organizations, and most schools with photojournalism departments, have phtojournalist of the year awards, not just NPPA. Zoriah has never claimed, nor has anyone submitting to the Wikipeda page, that he won the NPPA award. Zoriah was name photographer of the year by Morepraxis, info on this can be found on the Morepraxis website.
Added at 05:24, 12 March 2010 by 76.15.232.67 ( talk)
We removed this piece as it keeps returning and is nothing but slander: "charging each participant $4,000 USD to experience "the life of an award-winning photojournalist" amongst those afflicted by the January earthquake". This quote has nothing to do with Zoriah's workshop offerings and should be removed immediately. If people will not follow the links to see that Zoriah's work has been exhibited around the world, we want that section removed completely. If we have time to gather all of the links necessary to prove this we will do it later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.148 ( talk) 15:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Two questions for you, IP.
First, among the changes that you made was one from
to
So you're using YouTube as the authority for an assertion that Miller appeared in this TV program. Putting aside the question of whether Youtube videos are reliable sources (and it's generally agreed that they are not), I don't see any evidence of a TV program. What am I missing?
(I could ask several more questions like this, but it's too laborious to write them all out.)
Secondly, though I as a private person refer to myself in the first person singular, you use the first person plural. Why is this? And what's your relationship to Miller? -- Hoary ( talk) 16:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I saw that there was a pending 3O for this page. While there hasn't been any actual discussion here, I'll go based on the comments left at User talk:Gskphoto#Zoriah Miller yet again. Aside from the fact that Gskphoto clearly has an axe to grind with Miller, adding dubious remarks like "claims to" and screeds like "unethical journalism" are unacceptable. This set of edits is particularly troubling due to its entire lack of reliable sourcing. If any sources could be provided to illustrate anything, then perhaps we could discuss its inclusion. But as it stands right now, text like that is wholly unacceptable. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 12:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
None of the claims made by the person who write and re-writes Zoriah's page (most probably ZOriah himself) are backed by any form of truth. None of the links put on the as refs are real sources, most don't even point to website that relate to those claims, the others are websites owned by Miller. This subject has been widely discussed a few month ago, and changes were made, but recently some changes have been made back to the way it was, apparently with Hoary's support, who's only response is a threat to block from editing.
Zoriah Miller did not win any substantial award in journalism, neither is he "widely published and exhibited", and all of that was proven in the last discussion. Yet, all these changes were made without providing a single new proof.
There is very litle doubt that this page was written by Zoriah himself, as the professional photojournalism industry regards him as a complete joke: Search Zoriah on lightstalkers.org the largest forum for photojournalists. search Zoriah on Google and you'll see comments that explain who this guy really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.25.141.184 ( talk) 16:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
You say there hasn't been a discussion here? Read the very long page above this text, every point has been addressed and proven. this article should have been deleted as blatant and fake self promo a long time ago. 125.25.141.184 ( talk) 16:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Of course i have an axe to grind with someone who is actively giving a bad name to my profession, behaves in a completely unethical manner, and spends more time self promoting himself (like wiriting Wiki articles about himself) than actually taking pictures. But besides all that? "he claims" means he claims, yet no proof has been given, it's the difference between someone's delusions about himself and reality. Read the discuccion, the "We" part could have only been written by Zoriah himself yet, when i mention reality, Hoary is more worried about his record being reverted than keeping the truth relating to this matter, so he chooses to threaten me with blocking my future edits to scare me off revertiing his changes. no 1 editor here holds absolute truth. and Wiki should always be relying on clean, crisp facts. nothing else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gskphoto ( talk • contribs) 16:24, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
The only verified facts are:
The changes were made and stayed like that for a while, but then reverted and accepted by none other than Hoary himself. Hoary: Are you related in a personal way to "Zoriah"? I doubt you would answer the question honestly if you are, but the question still remains. After making all the changes at my request after a painstaking procedure where i had to provide you several proofs about each point a few months ago, you suddenly chose to rewrite this into a glorifying article that is riddled with lies and unverified information.
One thing is sure, if you do a tiny bit of research, Zoriah is known in the industry... As the laughing stock. Gskphoto ( talk) 06:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Is this appropriate? TIA -- Tom (talk) 15:12, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
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