This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Contents: ShadowH/Ciz sockpuppet Nov'05, Satanism, recent edits of User:Wahkeenah, removed links about-bestiality.com, zoophilia.net and NYTimes (zooskool.com notes KEPT as may still be relevant), ingrid newkirk quote clarification/discussion.
Archived Nov 27 2005
More people associate the topic with the name 'Bestiality' than 'Zoophilia'. ShadowH 19:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
As you will see from the header of this page, about 9 months ago, we had a visitor. His name was "Ciz" and he was a vandal and POV warrior.
The Arbitration Committee stated that he was not to return to this article, and that they were not throwing the book at him "this time".
I think you're the same person back again.
So the next thing that needs to happen, ShadowH, is either:
Either will be okay. Let me know which it is.
If you post on the subject of zoophilia again, and have not posted a statement that says you are not "Ciz", then I will assume you are and go direct to ArbCom without further discussion that same day.
Apologies for being unsubtle this way, but I think it's important to clear up this possible matter first. The reason for this notice and for not going direct to "Request for Administrator Enforcement" or "Request for Arbitration" is to give you a chance to state your side.
FT2 11:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to point whoever made the recent edit under religious perspectives to the Church of Satan's literature. Zoophilia is condemned in the Satanic bible, any attempts to suggest otherwise are simply introducing non-factual information.
I'm a bit confused by the recent edits of User:Wahkeenah. First he mades extremely POV edits, then quite slowly changes his wording so we can find a compromise he also agrees upon. Then he removes that wording completely and again adds extremely POV stuff into the article. What is the point of that? -- Conti| ✉ 18:33, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
I was fine with your wording. But then someone else messed with it, and I came back at them. How about I revert this to your last version, where we were in agreement on wording, and then you can move the section to the bottom of the page as you see fit. I do have this concern about the wording, though. It is all presented from the human viewpoint, in the typical patronizing way that humans have of saying someone else should not object to being victimized. I claim that any defense of zoophilia in this article is an inherently biased Point of View, because the objects of the behavior have no defense, no voice in the matter. It would be best to simply define what zoophilia is and leave out the junk that tries to rationalize and justify it. Wahkeenah 19:23, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I put it back to where it was where we both seemed to agree, plus a minor grammatical change, a roboted link that was added later, and ironically an attempt on my part to soften the POV by taking away the implication that all pedophiles use this argument. Speaking of which, in looking through the pedophile page, I see a lot of facts, and reports of sites that defend it, but offhand I don't see any overt defense of the behavior within the article. Perhaps that page's approach should be used as a model for this page? Wahkeenah 19:33, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't know anything about whatever "edit wars" might have gone on on this page. All I know is that the unrefuted assertion that some self-styled expert says it's OK for humans to fuck animals as long as the humans feel OK about it is absolute garbage and has no place in something that alleges itself to be a serious work. Wahkeenah 22:32, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I just added back the reference you cite, MINUS the biased POV statement that if the human feels good about it, then it's OK. The problem otherwise is that other guy, Schneelocke or whatever, keeps qualifying a statement that should be obvious to anyone with more than a double digit IQ. What does the alleged fact that an argument is "widely used" got to do with anything? In Hitler's Germany, the argument that the Jews were the cause of all their troubles was also "widely used". Anyway, tell HIM to stop it! Wahkeenah 22:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
It occurs to me that the term "widely used" is also POV. What exactly does that mean? Nothing, is what. A percentage would be meaningful, not a comment like "widely". But I would surprised if you would find any scientifically conducted poll asserting that a significant percentage (whatever that might be) would agree that fucking animals is OK. My specific objection to the "unless accompanied by..." is that it only speaks to what the humans are feeling and expresses no concern at all for what the animals might be going through. Citing it without pointing out the irony of it IS PUSHING A POV. And the lack of a negative reaction on a victim's part does NOT imply approval or consent. Most of the Nazi holocaust victims went to the gas chambers quietly. Using the same logic, it must have been OK with them, because they did not speak up. As far as what the APA thinks, keep in mind they know which side their bread is buttered on: "You want to fuck animals? Oh, there-there, it's OK. There's nothing wrong with you. You're perfectly normal! Feel better about yourself now? Good! $100 please! Same time next week?" Wahkeenah 23:36, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Never heard of Godwin's Law until now. If the shoe fits, wear it. But wouldn't put that in the article. The comparisons to pedophilia and slavery are sufficient, but that guy won't let them stand. And I agree with you that the article should not be taking a position on the issue. The problem is that IT IS taking a position. But if I add your comment, which sounds like a good way to phrase it, and which I tried to say (apparently clumsily) when this all started, then that other guy will add his own comment which attempts to refute it. It's a no-(God)-win situation. However, I'm going to add your comment, and see if it fuels the flames any further or if it will stand as is. Wahkeenah 23:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
There you go again, throwing in that one-sided argument. You can't argue for the human side without also pointing out that the animals have no voice in it! Wahkeenah 17:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I gather that there has been a lot of debate. I didn't see anything comparable on the pedophilia page overtly defending pedophilia. My guess is that it's because pushing that viewpoint would evoke a huge firestorm. Animals, however, are apparently fair game (pardon the irony) for the self-centered wants of humans who want to justify their treatment of animals. I don't object to defining what zoophilia is, or even citing those who support it. What I object to is the ONE-SIDED presentation of some HUMAN's idea of why it's OK, just because it's something the HUMAN wants, without pointing out the obvious fact that animals HAVE NO VOICE in the matter. Wahkeenah 17:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
OK, tell ya what... I'll add the following comment to the pedophilia page, and we'll see how far that flies: Defenders of pedophilia claim that an adult/child relationship can go far beyond sexuality, and that children are (if allowed) capable of forming a loving relationship that can last for years, and that they do not consider it functionally different from any other love/sex relationship. Wahkeenah 19:36, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
And I'm sure you could find some adults willing to testify that being molested was *good* for them. I'm sure the NAMBLA site would have plenty such testimony. As far as breaking "rules", that comment I quoted was clearly a POV editorial comment posted by someone who supports fucking animals. Why are you allowing that anonymous assertion to stand unchallenged? Wahkeenah 20:30, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
ContiE and I HAD discussed and HAD reached a reasonable compromise, and then that other guy Schneelocke kept putting that unsubstantiated, uncited editorial comment back in. Why don't you talk to HIM??? Wahkeenah 21:40, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and since you want response to your specific arguments... surprise: I DO NOT claim to speak for animals. I would argue that whatever they are going through is NOT KNOWABLE. I think of fucking and animal as being on rougly the same level as fucking a retarded human. My complaint about the POINT OF VIEW BEING PUSHED IN THE ARTICLE is that it is TOTALLY HUMAN CENTERED. That is, that it's about WHAT THE HUMANS WANT, and they invent theories to support the idea that the animals are having a good time too. Wahkeenah 21:40, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I hate to be the bearer of bad news sweetheart but animals aren't people. They don't have a voice because they don't need one. They are fucking chattel and they belong to whoever owns them. The reason the article is "human-centered" (what a ridiculous statement) is because we're human. Lord of Creation, Top of the Food Chain. Animals are for use, companionship, and food. Sexual activity with them falls under these categories. If I own a dog and I want to have sex with it that isn't your or PETA's business. If you want to protect the dog offer me a fair price and I'll sell him to you. Its the same thing as fucking a blow-up doll I bought, I own it its mine.
Ummm shouldn't "References to zoosexuality are not uncommon in some media, especially cartoon series such as Family Man and South Park, satirical comedy such as Borat,..." say "References to zoosexuality are not uncommon in some media, especially cartoon series such as Family Guy ..."? Family Guy is the animated and Family Man is something else...
Removed two links - one to about-beastiality.com because it was, surprise surprise, heavily pornographic - in fact, I didn't see anything there that wasn't pornographic - and one to tailhole.org, because I'm pretty certain it was added by its own author. He may respond here if I'm mistaken, or if he believes that it should be linked here anyway.
Also, anyone mind if I archive this page again? -- Zetawoof 00:42, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
this link to the New York Times
redirects to a page that needs a username/password to access. I strongly reccomend an alternative link to be placed. Lacrymology 15:21:33, 2005-08-03 (UTC)
Ingrid Newcrap has changed her mind, why give these dips any coverage or publicity http://canadafreepress.com/2005/rubin072105.htm
-- Comment by User:218.244.225.180
It's given me a major headache but thanks for the article. Okay let's do this then, if you want to see what this group is doing to zoos today, a recent news article clearly shows how screwed up thinking that Peta condones any kind of zoo contact is, just point your mouse to this newpaper article: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45995 Peta has gone after a blind guy for inviting a girlfriend to have sex with his male dog and the authorities took the dog away as a "victim" of "animal rape" Peta's non assaultive bestiality "support" letter to the prosecutors urging throwing the book at him as an "animal rapist" is here: http://www.peta.org/mc/NewsItem.asp?id=6838
Maybe that shows how absurd keeping the old Newkirk quote is since it's easy to misunderstand, especially without the update to show the facts and the truth, but you keep whatever version you like best, false or not, I'm done with this. (Added by: 218.244.225.180)
Upon inspection of the site, I noticed a number of hidden links (style="text-decoration:none; color:black") on the site leading to various pornographic sites hosted at the same location. The content, also, is available in full in other locations. What information from that site do we believe to be indispensable to the article? The sources for the subpages, in full, are:
There was also one duplicate link to one of the subpages, which was removed as well.
((Zooskool.com notes KEPT IN CURRENT TALK PAGE as still relevant to discussion))
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Contents: ShadowH/Ciz sockpuppet Nov'05, Satanism, recent edits of User:Wahkeenah, removed links about-bestiality.com, zoophilia.net and NYTimes (zooskool.com notes KEPT as may still be relevant), ingrid newkirk quote clarification/discussion.
Archived Nov 27 2005
More people associate the topic with the name 'Bestiality' than 'Zoophilia'. ShadowH 19:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
As you will see from the header of this page, about 9 months ago, we had a visitor. His name was "Ciz" and he was a vandal and POV warrior.
The Arbitration Committee stated that he was not to return to this article, and that they were not throwing the book at him "this time".
I think you're the same person back again.
So the next thing that needs to happen, ShadowH, is either:
Either will be okay. Let me know which it is.
If you post on the subject of zoophilia again, and have not posted a statement that says you are not "Ciz", then I will assume you are and go direct to ArbCom without further discussion that same day.
Apologies for being unsubtle this way, but I think it's important to clear up this possible matter first. The reason for this notice and for not going direct to "Request for Administrator Enforcement" or "Request for Arbitration" is to give you a chance to state your side.
FT2 11:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to point whoever made the recent edit under religious perspectives to the Church of Satan's literature. Zoophilia is condemned in the Satanic bible, any attempts to suggest otherwise are simply introducing non-factual information.
I'm a bit confused by the recent edits of User:Wahkeenah. First he mades extremely POV edits, then quite slowly changes his wording so we can find a compromise he also agrees upon. Then he removes that wording completely and again adds extremely POV stuff into the article. What is the point of that? -- Conti| ✉ 18:33, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
I was fine with your wording. But then someone else messed with it, and I came back at them. How about I revert this to your last version, where we were in agreement on wording, and then you can move the section to the bottom of the page as you see fit. I do have this concern about the wording, though. It is all presented from the human viewpoint, in the typical patronizing way that humans have of saying someone else should not object to being victimized. I claim that any defense of zoophilia in this article is an inherently biased Point of View, because the objects of the behavior have no defense, no voice in the matter. It would be best to simply define what zoophilia is and leave out the junk that tries to rationalize and justify it. Wahkeenah 19:23, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I put it back to where it was where we both seemed to agree, plus a minor grammatical change, a roboted link that was added later, and ironically an attempt on my part to soften the POV by taking away the implication that all pedophiles use this argument. Speaking of which, in looking through the pedophile page, I see a lot of facts, and reports of sites that defend it, but offhand I don't see any overt defense of the behavior within the article. Perhaps that page's approach should be used as a model for this page? Wahkeenah 19:33, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't know anything about whatever "edit wars" might have gone on on this page. All I know is that the unrefuted assertion that some self-styled expert says it's OK for humans to fuck animals as long as the humans feel OK about it is absolute garbage and has no place in something that alleges itself to be a serious work. Wahkeenah 22:32, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I just added back the reference you cite, MINUS the biased POV statement that if the human feels good about it, then it's OK. The problem otherwise is that other guy, Schneelocke or whatever, keeps qualifying a statement that should be obvious to anyone with more than a double digit IQ. What does the alleged fact that an argument is "widely used" got to do with anything? In Hitler's Germany, the argument that the Jews were the cause of all their troubles was also "widely used". Anyway, tell HIM to stop it! Wahkeenah 22:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
It occurs to me that the term "widely used" is also POV. What exactly does that mean? Nothing, is what. A percentage would be meaningful, not a comment like "widely". But I would surprised if you would find any scientifically conducted poll asserting that a significant percentage (whatever that might be) would agree that fucking animals is OK. My specific objection to the "unless accompanied by..." is that it only speaks to what the humans are feeling and expresses no concern at all for what the animals might be going through. Citing it without pointing out the irony of it IS PUSHING A POV. And the lack of a negative reaction on a victim's part does NOT imply approval or consent. Most of the Nazi holocaust victims went to the gas chambers quietly. Using the same logic, it must have been OK with them, because they did not speak up. As far as what the APA thinks, keep in mind they know which side their bread is buttered on: "You want to fuck animals? Oh, there-there, it's OK. There's nothing wrong with you. You're perfectly normal! Feel better about yourself now? Good! $100 please! Same time next week?" Wahkeenah 23:36, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Never heard of Godwin's Law until now. If the shoe fits, wear it. But wouldn't put that in the article. The comparisons to pedophilia and slavery are sufficient, but that guy won't let them stand. And I agree with you that the article should not be taking a position on the issue. The problem is that IT IS taking a position. But if I add your comment, which sounds like a good way to phrase it, and which I tried to say (apparently clumsily) when this all started, then that other guy will add his own comment which attempts to refute it. It's a no-(God)-win situation. However, I'm going to add your comment, and see if it fuels the flames any further or if it will stand as is. Wahkeenah 23:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
There you go again, throwing in that one-sided argument. You can't argue for the human side without also pointing out that the animals have no voice in it! Wahkeenah 17:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I gather that there has been a lot of debate. I didn't see anything comparable on the pedophilia page overtly defending pedophilia. My guess is that it's because pushing that viewpoint would evoke a huge firestorm. Animals, however, are apparently fair game (pardon the irony) for the self-centered wants of humans who want to justify their treatment of animals. I don't object to defining what zoophilia is, or even citing those who support it. What I object to is the ONE-SIDED presentation of some HUMAN's idea of why it's OK, just because it's something the HUMAN wants, without pointing out the obvious fact that animals HAVE NO VOICE in the matter. Wahkeenah 17:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
OK, tell ya what... I'll add the following comment to the pedophilia page, and we'll see how far that flies: Defenders of pedophilia claim that an adult/child relationship can go far beyond sexuality, and that children are (if allowed) capable of forming a loving relationship that can last for years, and that they do not consider it functionally different from any other love/sex relationship. Wahkeenah 19:36, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
And I'm sure you could find some adults willing to testify that being molested was *good* for them. I'm sure the NAMBLA site would have plenty such testimony. As far as breaking "rules", that comment I quoted was clearly a POV editorial comment posted by someone who supports fucking animals. Why are you allowing that anonymous assertion to stand unchallenged? Wahkeenah 20:30, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
ContiE and I HAD discussed and HAD reached a reasonable compromise, and then that other guy Schneelocke kept putting that unsubstantiated, uncited editorial comment back in. Why don't you talk to HIM??? Wahkeenah 21:40, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and since you want response to your specific arguments... surprise: I DO NOT claim to speak for animals. I would argue that whatever they are going through is NOT KNOWABLE. I think of fucking and animal as being on rougly the same level as fucking a retarded human. My complaint about the POINT OF VIEW BEING PUSHED IN THE ARTICLE is that it is TOTALLY HUMAN CENTERED. That is, that it's about WHAT THE HUMANS WANT, and they invent theories to support the idea that the animals are having a good time too. Wahkeenah 21:40, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I hate to be the bearer of bad news sweetheart but animals aren't people. They don't have a voice because they don't need one. They are fucking chattel and they belong to whoever owns them. The reason the article is "human-centered" (what a ridiculous statement) is because we're human. Lord of Creation, Top of the Food Chain. Animals are for use, companionship, and food. Sexual activity with them falls under these categories. If I own a dog and I want to have sex with it that isn't your or PETA's business. If you want to protect the dog offer me a fair price and I'll sell him to you. Its the same thing as fucking a blow-up doll I bought, I own it its mine.
Ummm shouldn't "References to zoosexuality are not uncommon in some media, especially cartoon series such as Family Man and South Park, satirical comedy such as Borat,..." say "References to zoosexuality are not uncommon in some media, especially cartoon series such as Family Guy ..."? Family Guy is the animated and Family Man is something else...
Removed two links - one to about-beastiality.com because it was, surprise surprise, heavily pornographic - in fact, I didn't see anything there that wasn't pornographic - and one to tailhole.org, because I'm pretty certain it was added by its own author. He may respond here if I'm mistaken, or if he believes that it should be linked here anyway.
Also, anyone mind if I archive this page again? -- Zetawoof 00:42, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
this link to the New York Times
redirects to a page that needs a username/password to access. I strongly reccomend an alternative link to be placed. Lacrymology 15:21:33, 2005-08-03 (UTC)
Ingrid Newcrap has changed her mind, why give these dips any coverage or publicity http://canadafreepress.com/2005/rubin072105.htm
-- Comment by User:218.244.225.180
It's given me a major headache but thanks for the article. Okay let's do this then, if you want to see what this group is doing to zoos today, a recent news article clearly shows how screwed up thinking that Peta condones any kind of zoo contact is, just point your mouse to this newpaper article: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45995 Peta has gone after a blind guy for inviting a girlfriend to have sex with his male dog and the authorities took the dog away as a "victim" of "animal rape" Peta's non assaultive bestiality "support" letter to the prosecutors urging throwing the book at him as an "animal rapist" is here: http://www.peta.org/mc/NewsItem.asp?id=6838
Maybe that shows how absurd keeping the old Newkirk quote is since it's easy to misunderstand, especially without the update to show the facts and the truth, but you keep whatever version you like best, false or not, I'm done with this. (Added by: 218.244.225.180)
Upon inspection of the site, I noticed a number of hidden links (style="text-decoration:none; color:black") on the site leading to various pornographic sites hosted at the same location. The content, also, is available in full in other locations. What information from that site do we believe to be indispensable to the article? The sources for the subpages, in full, are:
There was also one duplicate link to one of the subpages, which was removed as well.
((Zooskool.com notes KEPT IN CURRENT TALK PAGE as still relevant to discussion))