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NOTE: the material on this page was archived from Talk:Zoophilia in order to keep that page at a manageable size.
Some of these are good questions. And if genuine, they deserve answers. I'll have a go, and see if anyone else can fill in the gaps, and reach a consensus. Sorry this may be a bit long, but thats how research is.... FT2 03:36, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
(1) Numbers: The number of zoophiles is unknown. So if you expect an academic research paper to categorically say how many there are, you will not find one. Much of it is "best estimates. That is what 2 - 8% means. It doesnt mean "8% of people are zoophiles". It means precisely what it says. Somewhere between 2% and 8% is a realistic guess, depending on area and definition. In other words, unlikely less than 1-2%, and unlikely to generally average over 8-10% of people. If you have information that indicates less than 1% of sexually active people have had a degree of zoophilic experience, then you should add the evidence you have. The sources for this are described - accurately - as vague. There are some other indications that the number is not small - none of the few surveys to attempt to measure zoophilia suggest under 2%, online zoo surveys, and Nancy Friday when collecting female fantasy with no focus on zoophilia and before the net found significant interest: the 180 fantasies she collected (and i would not imagine she selected for zoophilia) included 6 reports by people whose description states bluntly they either have had zoophilic activity, or are non-sexual zoophiles. The six are: "kate", "dawn", "felicia", "trudy" ("he co-operated quite nicely"), "Jocelyn" ("always concerned animals and nothing else"), and Esther. NF's book is not about zoophilia in any way, nor is there any evidence of any comment you made, nor have her conclusions or work been discredited in 30 years, and yet not only (a) more than 3-4% of contributors are zoophilic (depending on definition 6-12 women could be classified as such on their own description), but (b) thats just the ones who state it very strongly positively. As I said, there is no academic definitive answer. But the evidence is good that if there were, it would not be under 2% and (probably most places) not over 8%. Some surveys such as Kinsey report up to 50% in some areas, as noted in the article this is somewhat suspect though according to some commentators.
(2) Fantasies: Again, read the research. 10% (Nancy Friday). Massen (1994) also agreed they are "common". And the vast amount of online interest supports the view. (Check out how many hundreds of thousands visit online zoophile chat sites, websites and dating sites, even ignoring pure commercial pornographic sites). I think it's safe to say that nobody is seriously suggesting under 10% latent interest. You have to remember, not all zoophilia is sexual, nor is all zoophilic fantasy acted on. Thats probably why you are underestimating so badly. Or simply, lack of exposure and understanding.
(3) Animal partner: Im not sure what the issue here is. If two beings are having regular sex, and the human considers the other a "partner" (and you can verify many/most zoophiles appear to do so) then in wikipedia you use the term the people use. They often report in research that they feel the animal is a "partner" and in many cases equal to or more imporatnt than the human one. That is kinda part of the territory, even if for you its as "preposterous" as a guy seeing another guy as a "partner". Wikipedia does not advocate either side, but this is appropriate terminology when describing how they see it. The statement "The suggestion that an animal "partner" is on a par with a human "partner" is preposterous" is your viewpoint and judgement, not that of (for instance) zoophile commentators. Again, check Winberg, Mitelski, beetz, each of them refers to zoophiles treating their pets as "partners". So it is clearly only preposterous in your eyes, which is the definition of POV.
(4) The availability of research is addressed in the page, with a note that is quite descriptive and neutral. If you feel that there is a major paper on zoophilia itself, which contradicts there, please supply details. As for negatives within those papers, they have been addressed. The public views have been described, and more of them than any one member of the public usually thinks of. And if you feel anything is "slagged off" then please cite it, otherwise cease any personal attacks.
(5) Again, you clearly present yourself as having limited knowledge of the research. I visited Beetz to discuss her research with her, Ive read the thesis, and Ive seen the multiple psychological assessments which are used throughout professional practice to assess features such as psychopathy and violence. The research is good, and its been peer reviewed. if you feel this isn't the case then doubtless several people of professional standing will have strongly critiqued it and written a rebuttal. Please locate this for me, as I havent heard of one, or else accept the research is bona fide and accepted in the profession.
(5) Your next point is in fact a circular argument. You appear to be saying, "why not say all zoophiles are animal abusers since that is what anti-zoophiles are saying. Wikipedia is neutral as to the issue. Whatever you feel of professional credible research I am sure of 2 things: (1) the APA have downgraded it, which says something how they see it, (2) no animal rights group or anti zoophile organisation has done any research even attempting to come close or match it, much less professionally peer reviewed in any way. Therefore the primary source for neutral "best knowledge" comes from the profession. Again, you confuse zoophiles with sexual abusers. The profession, after many decades of study, says they are not the same groups. You have to accept that. Research on people convicted of violence, or bestiality, will not teach us much about for example, zoophiles who do not have sex, or who have sex but are not abusive (as the psychologists and sexologists see it). You and I and others may feel that "all sex with animals is abusive". But thats not the "best present knowledge or representation" of human science and inquiry.
(6) Again you are forgetting, this is an encyclopedia. Wikipedia does not hold a specific point of view, other than neutral preseentation of what is known.
(7) "Privately, as with many sexual matters, views vary more widely" - This seems perfectly reasonable to me. Do you have evidence it isnt so? The meaning is - that privately people are less universally against than the media and law might otherwise suggest. This is accurate. Again, check the research. (trivial example: You simply cant have the amount of interest there is on it, and simultaneously say that it is "universally hated")
(8) Double standards: The referent is "society" being seen by zoophiles as having double standards. Given that we live in a society which simultaneously says animals must die for your food coloring and shampoo, and that I can have my dog killed at whim for no reason and nobody can stop me, and yet other people will unhesitatingly tell you how animals "feel" and "love", should have rights, and are not just objects, I think its safe to say that the expression "double standards" to describe how we as a society view animals is clinically accurate.
(9) so often people are unconvinced: this seems faily obvious. if you want to decouple them as two sentences and remove the "so" in between, thats fine by me if others agree.
(10) Animals cannot consent...you must assume they do - Im not sure if I understand you, thats accurate. At least, its no more inaccurate than when one "assumes" your dog wants a walk because its pawing at the door, or "assume" a dog feels at ease when its muscles visibly relax and it chooses to lie down next to you of its own free will. You have to "interpret" many things, wagging tails, crouching and head turned, tail tucked underneath, and there are hundreds of years of research into "interpreting" animal behaviour. I dont think you can pick one behaviour that every animal has in its repertoire and announce that it alone cannot be interpreted... when animal studies and human studies say is readily interpretable and interpreted... and when coincidentally that behaviour just happens to be THE classic one humans don't like to think about. People in animal studies have no trouble discussing animal sexuality. There are huge numbers of studies on interpreting animals body and other language, sexual and otherwise. See Ethology.
(11) "Nancy Friday put an ad in the paper, put all the racy ones in her book and binned the rest. Nancy includes interracial sex in her bestiality chapter!". Ahem indeed. This is a comment showing your POV colors. Nancy Friday has not been criticised despite 30 years and much ongoing interest for any such thing. But even if she had been selective as you allege (without evidence) and it had never been detected, its not one abberation. Every current research thesis concludes the same. FT2 03:51, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
Sorry for the above - still not quite used to the rules here. Moved my comments to Dr.Zen down here as well.
Re: Animal partners are treated as akin to human partners.
Re: claim of rather poorly worded dismissal of opposing research:
Re: comments on socialisation as a impetus to "antizoophilia"
Re: comments on public versus private views
Tachusvelox 03:45, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'll leave it to someone else to refute FT2's mishmash of wishful thinking and POV pushing. I started but my PC threw a wobbly and frankly I can't be bothered doing it again. Perhaps someone will explain to him that descriptive studies of self-selected samples cannot be extrapolated to a broader population; that "partnership" among humans is generally taken to mean a great deal more than physical affection, and that you just can't find a sheep who will discuss poetry with you; that using the terminology favoured by one side in a debate is precisely what "POV" is, regardless how fervently that side feels that the term is appropriate (it would be equally POV for a paedophile to describe young children as "lovers" for much the same reasons). While you're at it, point out to him that "I can say it unless you can prove it isn't so" has never been a valid argument here and I would have hoped never will be.
Dr Zen 06:50, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
(Ciz stuff moved from elsewhere, still unable to read instructions)
While there is an ongoing VfD discussion, however frivolous the original call, I think it's best that we have the VfD notice displayed. My reasoning is that people seeing the article should be aware of the attempt to delete it and the response of the Wikipedia community (which happens to be unanimous rejection of the deletion call). Please do not remove the notice again--it will be removed in a few days time when the discussion is archived. This is not a fresh VfD call and it is not a vote of support for Ciz.--[[User:Tony Sidaway| Tony Sidaway| Talk]] 02:53, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Arg, another vprotection? I can only hope this one doesn't last several weeks like the last one did. Zetawoof 02:23, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the vandal in question is about to get a temporary injunction against him editing the article (and then... we'll see), so it may not have to last long. In the mean time, I'm going to take advantage of the editing lull to try an overall scrubbing of the article for NPOV, encyclopedic tone, etc, taking into account the comments here and my own sense of where it's straying into advocacy... and hopefully have it ready to submit as a revision when the vprot is removed. I doubt the result will please everybody, but perhaps it'll displease everyone equally. :) JAQ 03:05, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As the consensus is overwhelmingly on the keep side, I've taken the liberty of de-listing this page early. Vacuum c 18:01, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
I previously placed an NPOV tag over this section and I am rather bemused that it has been removed (after, it seems, a single comment of defence which seems to have been archived pretty quickly). Acting as listed there is neither necessary nor sufficient to define a zoophile, and I don't think the majority of it should feature in the article at all. This article is supposed to neutrally present the facts about zoophilia. This section is clearly not neutral and doesn't present many useful facts. The first two paragraphs describing the thought processes of a typical zoophile.. I think there would be outrage if there was a 'Homosexuality as a lifestyle' section which claimed to declare how zoophiles thought; I think that each person has their own individual thoughts, and these paragraphs prescribe the situation too much. If there is anything worthy of keeping, it needs to be presented more carefully and more neutrally. At the moment it reads like this is the One Path that zoophiles take. The middle paragraph - the comment about homosexuals there also seems misguided... I'm not aware of any particular 'previous centuries' when homosexuals were particularly isolated any more than any other group of people. I am open to discussion on this point. Further, I don't think society's objection to bestiality necessarily relates to the idea that zoophiles may be abusive, and I don't think that is in any way related to the idea that humans are more important than animals (which, anyway, I think is less pronounced than this article makes out) To say that "for most animals, sex carries less importance" is a subjective comment... we can't know what an animal thinks about sex, nor is the human concept of sex universal across all humans. In both cases, sex is primarily there for reproduction - and therefore surely carries the same importance. This paragraph needs to be rewritten. The last paragraph in this section provides neutral, interesting fact.. "As human partnerships are generally encouraged by society" seems rather an odd thing to say, though, and could be removed. ( Mysteronald)
Research into zoophilia in its own right has happened since around 1960-1970, with the first detailed studies dating from prior to 1910. --- That reads like a contradiction to me. -- Zero 11:42, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Basically thats about right, PMC, and sorry if it sounds contradictory, Zero. This might be interesting as background. There have 4 main phases of research, from what I can see (warning: I may word parts of this badly as I'm drawing on memory, apologies if I need to correct anything):
The earlier papers are more academic and were not published to a wide audience, so there was a perception that the people who studied this in the 1990s were 1st generation. But that's not supported by the evidence. If you look at their citations lists, and the nature and conclusions of earlier research, it is clear this is a misapprehension caused by the above factors, and by the fact this is not a commonly discussed subject in the first place. There is a lot of earlier research, and most of it points enough in the same direction that psychologists as a community have for some decades had a broad and evolving consensus on the topic.
Part of this is also due to maturing and innovation within the psychological profession itself, if one can call it that:
FT2 05:27, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
NOTE: the material on this page was archived from Talk:Zoophilia in order to keep that page at a manageable size.
Some of these are good questions. And if genuine, they deserve answers. I'll have a go, and see if anyone else can fill in the gaps, and reach a consensus. Sorry this may be a bit long, but thats how research is.... FT2 03:36, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
(1) Numbers: The number of zoophiles is unknown. So if you expect an academic research paper to categorically say how many there are, you will not find one. Much of it is "best estimates. That is what 2 - 8% means. It doesnt mean "8% of people are zoophiles". It means precisely what it says. Somewhere between 2% and 8% is a realistic guess, depending on area and definition. In other words, unlikely less than 1-2%, and unlikely to generally average over 8-10% of people. If you have information that indicates less than 1% of sexually active people have had a degree of zoophilic experience, then you should add the evidence you have. The sources for this are described - accurately - as vague. There are some other indications that the number is not small - none of the few surveys to attempt to measure zoophilia suggest under 2%, online zoo surveys, and Nancy Friday when collecting female fantasy with no focus on zoophilia and before the net found significant interest: the 180 fantasies she collected (and i would not imagine she selected for zoophilia) included 6 reports by people whose description states bluntly they either have had zoophilic activity, or are non-sexual zoophiles. The six are: "kate", "dawn", "felicia", "trudy" ("he co-operated quite nicely"), "Jocelyn" ("always concerned animals and nothing else"), and Esther. NF's book is not about zoophilia in any way, nor is there any evidence of any comment you made, nor have her conclusions or work been discredited in 30 years, and yet not only (a) more than 3-4% of contributors are zoophilic (depending on definition 6-12 women could be classified as such on their own description), but (b) thats just the ones who state it very strongly positively. As I said, there is no academic definitive answer. But the evidence is good that if there were, it would not be under 2% and (probably most places) not over 8%. Some surveys such as Kinsey report up to 50% in some areas, as noted in the article this is somewhat suspect though according to some commentators.
(2) Fantasies: Again, read the research. 10% (Nancy Friday). Massen (1994) also agreed they are "common". And the vast amount of online interest supports the view. (Check out how many hundreds of thousands visit online zoophile chat sites, websites and dating sites, even ignoring pure commercial pornographic sites). I think it's safe to say that nobody is seriously suggesting under 10% latent interest. You have to remember, not all zoophilia is sexual, nor is all zoophilic fantasy acted on. Thats probably why you are underestimating so badly. Or simply, lack of exposure and understanding.
(3) Animal partner: Im not sure what the issue here is. If two beings are having regular sex, and the human considers the other a "partner" (and you can verify many/most zoophiles appear to do so) then in wikipedia you use the term the people use. They often report in research that they feel the animal is a "partner" and in many cases equal to or more imporatnt than the human one. That is kinda part of the territory, even if for you its as "preposterous" as a guy seeing another guy as a "partner". Wikipedia does not advocate either side, but this is appropriate terminology when describing how they see it. The statement "The suggestion that an animal "partner" is on a par with a human "partner" is preposterous" is your viewpoint and judgement, not that of (for instance) zoophile commentators. Again, check Winberg, Mitelski, beetz, each of them refers to zoophiles treating their pets as "partners". So it is clearly only preposterous in your eyes, which is the definition of POV.
(4) The availability of research is addressed in the page, with a note that is quite descriptive and neutral. If you feel that there is a major paper on zoophilia itself, which contradicts there, please supply details. As for negatives within those papers, they have been addressed. The public views have been described, and more of them than any one member of the public usually thinks of. And if you feel anything is "slagged off" then please cite it, otherwise cease any personal attacks.
(5) Again, you clearly present yourself as having limited knowledge of the research. I visited Beetz to discuss her research with her, Ive read the thesis, and Ive seen the multiple psychological assessments which are used throughout professional practice to assess features such as psychopathy and violence. The research is good, and its been peer reviewed. if you feel this isn't the case then doubtless several people of professional standing will have strongly critiqued it and written a rebuttal. Please locate this for me, as I havent heard of one, or else accept the research is bona fide and accepted in the profession.
(5) Your next point is in fact a circular argument. You appear to be saying, "why not say all zoophiles are animal abusers since that is what anti-zoophiles are saying. Wikipedia is neutral as to the issue. Whatever you feel of professional credible research I am sure of 2 things: (1) the APA have downgraded it, which says something how they see it, (2) no animal rights group or anti zoophile organisation has done any research even attempting to come close or match it, much less professionally peer reviewed in any way. Therefore the primary source for neutral "best knowledge" comes from the profession. Again, you confuse zoophiles with sexual abusers. The profession, after many decades of study, says they are not the same groups. You have to accept that. Research on people convicted of violence, or bestiality, will not teach us much about for example, zoophiles who do not have sex, or who have sex but are not abusive (as the psychologists and sexologists see it). You and I and others may feel that "all sex with animals is abusive". But thats not the "best present knowledge or representation" of human science and inquiry.
(6) Again you are forgetting, this is an encyclopedia. Wikipedia does not hold a specific point of view, other than neutral preseentation of what is known.
(7) "Privately, as with many sexual matters, views vary more widely" - This seems perfectly reasonable to me. Do you have evidence it isnt so? The meaning is - that privately people are less universally against than the media and law might otherwise suggest. This is accurate. Again, check the research. (trivial example: You simply cant have the amount of interest there is on it, and simultaneously say that it is "universally hated")
(8) Double standards: The referent is "society" being seen by zoophiles as having double standards. Given that we live in a society which simultaneously says animals must die for your food coloring and shampoo, and that I can have my dog killed at whim for no reason and nobody can stop me, and yet other people will unhesitatingly tell you how animals "feel" and "love", should have rights, and are not just objects, I think its safe to say that the expression "double standards" to describe how we as a society view animals is clinically accurate.
(9) so often people are unconvinced: this seems faily obvious. if you want to decouple them as two sentences and remove the "so" in between, thats fine by me if others agree.
(10) Animals cannot consent...you must assume they do - Im not sure if I understand you, thats accurate. At least, its no more inaccurate than when one "assumes" your dog wants a walk because its pawing at the door, or "assume" a dog feels at ease when its muscles visibly relax and it chooses to lie down next to you of its own free will. You have to "interpret" many things, wagging tails, crouching and head turned, tail tucked underneath, and there are hundreds of years of research into "interpreting" animal behaviour. I dont think you can pick one behaviour that every animal has in its repertoire and announce that it alone cannot be interpreted... when animal studies and human studies say is readily interpretable and interpreted... and when coincidentally that behaviour just happens to be THE classic one humans don't like to think about. People in animal studies have no trouble discussing animal sexuality. There are huge numbers of studies on interpreting animals body and other language, sexual and otherwise. See Ethology.
(11) "Nancy Friday put an ad in the paper, put all the racy ones in her book and binned the rest. Nancy includes interracial sex in her bestiality chapter!". Ahem indeed. This is a comment showing your POV colors. Nancy Friday has not been criticised despite 30 years and much ongoing interest for any such thing. But even if she had been selective as you allege (without evidence) and it had never been detected, its not one abberation. Every current research thesis concludes the same. FT2 03:51, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
Sorry for the above - still not quite used to the rules here. Moved my comments to Dr.Zen down here as well.
Re: Animal partners are treated as akin to human partners.
Re: claim of rather poorly worded dismissal of opposing research:
Re: comments on socialisation as a impetus to "antizoophilia"
Re: comments on public versus private views
Tachusvelox 03:45, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'll leave it to someone else to refute FT2's mishmash of wishful thinking and POV pushing. I started but my PC threw a wobbly and frankly I can't be bothered doing it again. Perhaps someone will explain to him that descriptive studies of self-selected samples cannot be extrapolated to a broader population; that "partnership" among humans is generally taken to mean a great deal more than physical affection, and that you just can't find a sheep who will discuss poetry with you; that using the terminology favoured by one side in a debate is precisely what "POV" is, regardless how fervently that side feels that the term is appropriate (it would be equally POV for a paedophile to describe young children as "lovers" for much the same reasons). While you're at it, point out to him that "I can say it unless you can prove it isn't so" has never been a valid argument here and I would have hoped never will be.
Dr Zen 06:50, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
(Ciz stuff moved from elsewhere, still unable to read instructions)
While there is an ongoing VfD discussion, however frivolous the original call, I think it's best that we have the VfD notice displayed. My reasoning is that people seeing the article should be aware of the attempt to delete it and the response of the Wikipedia community (which happens to be unanimous rejection of the deletion call). Please do not remove the notice again--it will be removed in a few days time when the discussion is archived. This is not a fresh VfD call and it is not a vote of support for Ciz.--[[User:Tony Sidaway| Tony Sidaway| Talk]] 02:53, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Arg, another vprotection? I can only hope this one doesn't last several weeks like the last one did. Zetawoof 02:23, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the vandal in question is about to get a temporary injunction against him editing the article (and then... we'll see), so it may not have to last long. In the mean time, I'm going to take advantage of the editing lull to try an overall scrubbing of the article for NPOV, encyclopedic tone, etc, taking into account the comments here and my own sense of where it's straying into advocacy... and hopefully have it ready to submit as a revision when the vprot is removed. I doubt the result will please everybody, but perhaps it'll displease everyone equally. :) JAQ 03:05, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As the consensus is overwhelmingly on the keep side, I've taken the liberty of de-listing this page early. Vacuum c 18:01, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
I previously placed an NPOV tag over this section and I am rather bemused that it has been removed (after, it seems, a single comment of defence which seems to have been archived pretty quickly). Acting as listed there is neither necessary nor sufficient to define a zoophile, and I don't think the majority of it should feature in the article at all. This article is supposed to neutrally present the facts about zoophilia. This section is clearly not neutral and doesn't present many useful facts. The first two paragraphs describing the thought processes of a typical zoophile.. I think there would be outrage if there was a 'Homosexuality as a lifestyle' section which claimed to declare how zoophiles thought; I think that each person has their own individual thoughts, and these paragraphs prescribe the situation too much. If there is anything worthy of keeping, it needs to be presented more carefully and more neutrally. At the moment it reads like this is the One Path that zoophiles take. The middle paragraph - the comment about homosexuals there also seems misguided... I'm not aware of any particular 'previous centuries' when homosexuals were particularly isolated any more than any other group of people. I am open to discussion on this point. Further, I don't think society's objection to bestiality necessarily relates to the idea that zoophiles may be abusive, and I don't think that is in any way related to the idea that humans are more important than animals (which, anyway, I think is less pronounced than this article makes out) To say that "for most animals, sex carries less importance" is a subjective comment... we can't know what an animal thinks about sex, nor is the human concept of sex universal across all humans. In both cases, sex is primarily there for reproduction - and therefore surely carries the same importance. This paragraph needs to be rewritten. The last paragraph in this section provides neutral, interesting fact.. "As human partnerships are generally encouraged by society" seems rather an odd thing to say, though, and could be removed. ( Mysteronald)
Research into zoophilia in its own right has happened since around 1960-1970, with the first detailed studies dating from prior to 1910. --- That reads like a contradiction to me. -- Zero 11:42, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Basically thats about right, PMC, and sorry if it sounds contradictory, Zero. This might be interesting as background. There have 4 main phases of research, from what I can see (warning: I may word parts of this badly as I'm drawing on memory, apologies if I need to correct anything):
The earlier papers are more academic and were not published to a wide audience, so there was a perception that the people who studied this in the 1990s were 1st generation. But that's not supported by the evidence. If you look at their citations lists, and the nature and conclusions of earlier research, it is clear this is a misapprehension caused by the above factors, and by the fact this is not a commonly discussed subject in the first place. There is a lot of earlier research, and most of it points enough in the same direction that psychologists as a community have for some decades had a broad and evolving consensus on the topic.
Part of this is also due to maturing and innovation within the psychological profession itself, if one can call it that:
FT2 05:27, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)