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I had placed the list of deceased into columns for better legibility, and because of easier coding, and because the list of names is a list, I placed all the names into a bulleted list. An IP user 114.198.27.138 with less than five edits in his/her contribution history later reverted the list because "bullets dominate the article inappropriately," with which I disagree, because the bulleted list helps the layout with longer entries in the list. Because I still wanted the names formatted in columns, I restored the columns, but so far without bullets. - Mardus ( talk) 10:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Place your votes here.
Further comments should be here.
Why is there no mention that this was probably state terrorism? I live in Riga and hear many people say this. Think about the facts and draw your own conclusions:
After the attack many people noted suspicious circumstance surrounding it:
+the attck took place in the main Latvian nationalist week, after November 18th, when the Latvian government usually whips up hatred of Russians.
+the attack happened in Zolitude, the area of Riga where the most Russians live.
+the attack happened, not in the middle of the night, when the store was empty but at 1800pm, when the store was at its busiest.
+the Latvian government refused help from foreign governments, especially Russias. (What did they have to hide?)
+the Latvian government ordered the scene cleaned up as quickly as possible (what did they have to hide?)
+despite it being a small incident, the prime minister of Latvia resigned just after a meeting with the president.
What many people think happened is this: the Latvian government, which has long wanted rid of its Russian inhabitants, planned the attack. Placing a small amount of explosives at key points on the roof timed to explode at a time when the store was at its fullest. (The building work gave perfect cover.) The attack happened without the knowledge of the President. The government thought he would just go along with it, even if he found out. However the President did find out, summoned the Prime Minister to a meeting and there, told him that he knew everything. He then blackmailed Dumbrovskis, threatening to expose the plot unless Dumbrovskis resigned and allowed Berzsins to appoint a puppet Prime Minister, who he could blackmail into doing his bidding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSRVsegda ( talk • contribs) 16:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
At the time of the attack, many people reported hearing an explosion. That is also in many, newspapers, so that has been written about. All the other facts I present above have been written about too! The Wikipedia report already says that Latvija refused the help of foreign governments. It already says that the Prime Minister resigned after a small incident after a meeting with the president. You can find out easily that Zolitude is the most Russian part of Riga. Please, tell the truth!! The only conspiracy is the Latvian government one!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSRVsegda ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
That's a very good point! There obviously where children in the store at the time of the bombing. How would there not be at such a busy time not long after school had finished? So the fact that no children where among the dead, is also very suspicious. A friend of my friend told her that her work colleague's young niece had been killed in the bombing and that this was being covered up. I've heard that a figure of 20 children where killed; why they do that is unclear. But I suspect the Latvian government is worried that if the truth ever does come out, having murdered Russian kids would only add to the shame. Only firefighters from Estonia, the only other country that hates Russias people more than Latvija does, where there "to observe"; why am I not surprised? Probably it will be better if Russian people in Estonia don't visit supermarkets in the center of that country soon, especially during Estonian nationalist week.
Zolitude is the most Russian district, that's a fact. No one has answered my question of why the collapse just happened at 1800, when the store was at it's most full? Why did Dombrovskis resign after such a minor incident? Did Tony Blair resign after the train crash in Britain or Obama after the hurricanes? No!! Clearly he resigned because he was guilty of something and was being blackmailed by those that found out, like the president. (Expect a close friend or ally of the President to be appointed as the new Prime Minister soon.)
It happened in Latvian nationalist week, when celebrations where taking place around Riga and anti-Russian prejudice is at it's worst and the comings of goings of those carrying out the attack would be less likely to be noticed. Most of the forensic evidence was destroyed quickly after, during the second collapse, which was likely organised as well. People didn't say they heard the sound of a building collapsing, they said they heard an explosion, like a bomb. Massive difference!! That was soon airbrushed out of later press reports. No, too many strange coincedences. As Latvija's press is mostly government controlled, I don't think we will hear the truth from them. That is why Wikipedia, like Wikileaks, should take the lead in exposing this conspiracy, not in simply parrotting Latvijan government propoganda. This should not be removed or censored from the article. How do I make sure that the information is fixed in the article and not removed by Latvian nationalists? Who is the main moderator for this page?
Also, I find the fact that Xil chooses to make jokes about this, by adding sly smily faced emoticons, very distasteful. The murder of around a hundred innocent people in an ethnic cleansing incident, is not a joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSRVsegda ( talk • contribs) 17:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Do not blame. Learn what happened, when happened, why it happened. Start with the model of disaster. Currently created model catastrophe: http://nyos.lv/f/uploads/Zolitude-2.pdf. According this model collapse of supermarket «Maxima»-result of resonant oscillations parts of the building, caused by an external source.Other models describe the individual properties of the building, which could contribute to crash or could not contribute to the crash. Reliably establish the numerical characteristics of these properties at the time of the disaster is not possible. TVERD ( talk) 11:50, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Just as I predicted, a puppet prime minister was indeed appointed by the Latvian president, who exceeded his autority (he is only supposed to be a constitutional figure head) to veto candidates of other parties so that his prefered candidate could get the job. I have added that, with a reference— Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSRVsegda2014 ( talk • contribs)
I said back in December: "Expect a close friend or ally of the President to be appointed as the new Prime Minister soon.)" That prediction what many others said was proved correct: Strajuma became Prime Minister "after President Berzins had already turned down several other candidates." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17528621 So a figure head president meddled in the political process to insure his own prefered candidate got the job. You have not rebutted any of the other points I made, just made insults. Tell me, Xil, how much do the Latvijan government pay you for keeping this page in there prefered sanitised version?
Just an observation - website of charity collecting donations for the injured and families of the victims reports that they've given money to 41 people who were hospitalized on 21 November and 17 people hospitalized later. [1] In the news, as far as I remember, 35 people were initially reported by paramedics (it rose to 39 few days later), however there was conflicting information on the night after the incident about around 40 injured that apparently was reported by police. Not sure, if charity is to be trusted as there have been reports about fraudsters trying to cash in on this and they might be reporting about family members of the victims or other people who were not in the store, but were somehow still involved ~~ Xil ( talk) 10:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
After the incident several more collapses in the past were brought up (including one other store of the same chain), while none of those involved dozens of victims and are not likely to get an article, this means that the current title could apply to several events. I suggest Maxima XX roof collapse in Zolitūde, which includes both the name of the store and the neiborghood, which would set it appart from other chains and other stores in the city ~~ Xil ( talk) 09:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Both that store and this store contain large grocery store and other shops.
Judging by definition in the article supermarket neither really is purely a supermarket in English usage, since both sold stuff other than groceries, but in Latvian usage the word is just slang for any self-service store.
The same chain was involved in an incident where roof collapsed due to snow in 2010 killing two people ( ref)
Look, the way I see it the issue is not if another building that fits the definition to the letter has collapsed, but if a human being can tell what the article is about just by seeing the title.
The current title can suggest any supermarket in the city
or even a supermarket named Riga,
meaning that the reader actually has to guess, if any other supermarket has collapsed, if any other collapse was in supermarket or what, instead of getting that information from the title.
Is confusing naming now a policy?
I gave you plenty of evidence, you started to analyze the ways in which the other stores are not supermarkets.
The policy suggests that name should be recognizable and precise enough for reader vaguely familiar with the subject matter to identify what the article is about.
The average person might not know exact definition of supermarket
or in what buildings the other collapses occurred.
That other articles fitting the title don't exist may as well prove either 1. that other collapses are not notable enough like I said)
or 2. nobody has bothered to write an article,
Besides using that logic one might as well give it even wider geographic scope - why not Latvia supermarket roof collapse or Baltic States supermarket roof collapse? The former was even used by several English language news sites.
And, yes, shops named Riga do exist
Shop roofs have collapsed elsewhere in Latvia too,
though, by now I'm sure that whatever I say none of those cases were comparable.
To me it seems that in Google search results narrowed to English Maxima is more popular term than Riga for this so I don't what source you are using to check your claim that it's other way around.
And I would not claim that a building containing large bookstore and several other shops is grāmatnīca either.
If supermarket is a large, self service grocery store (both the article on the topic and what you said before suggest this) then the building was not a supermarket.
You: Both that store and this store contain large grocery store and other shops. Judging by definition in the article supermarket neither really is purely a supermarket in English usage, since both sold stuff other than groceries, but in Latvian usage the word is just slang for any self-service store.
Me: In English usage, supermarkets often go well beyond selling groceries, but a store that doesn't sell groceries is never called a "supermarket".
It seems it can only be considered supermarket in Latvian slang sense of the word, wich covers any shopping center with self service shops just like the other examples I mentioned.
And the collapse did not involve only the part of building with the grocery store,
so it is not the same as with clothing store, which apparantely was the only store affected
(and even in that case it seems extremly weird to call it clothing store roof collapse, instead of shoping mall roof collapse)
So a building which contains several stores including large self service grocery store is a supermarket, except when there is a roof collapse in the building which does not affect the said grocery store?
Seems to me you are shifting goalposts, instead of trying to consider that this might fit under different title.
The intentional press might well have used the name Latvian news in English used.
I read the international news at the time, most of them got the basic facts wrong, so I doubt they were acutely aware what stores where in the building.
You, though, assume avarage reader will do better than media (whose job is to get facts right) and go "Oh, must be that Maxima case I read about some time ago since there it collapsed right over grocery store",
instead of wondering, which of several cases they know it must be
or if another "Riga supermarket" has collapsed
Maxima itself is a chain of grocery stores (XX stands for store size). In this case the owner of Maxima chain indirectly owned the building and rented the space to their own chain and some other self-service store chains, which they do not own, selling other sorts of goods.
And, sorry, but I won't make a translation for every article (it would require several hours of work) - sources in foreign languages are considered reliable and policy does not require translation
and I told you how the thing you want a source for is called.
I can't add this to article currently, but at least part of the building will be demolished in the comming weeks [7] ~~ Xil ( talk) 20:46, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Zolitūde shopping centre roof collapse article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 7 days
![]() |
![]() | A news item involving Zolitūde shopping centre roof collapse was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 22 November 2013. | ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I had placed the list of deceased into columns for better legibility, and because of easier coding, and because the list of names is a list, I placed all the names into a bulleted list. An IP user 114.198.27.138 with less than five edits in his/her contribution history later reverted the list because "bullets dominate the article inappropriately," with which I disagree, because the bulleted list helps the layout with longer entries in the list. Because I still wanted the names formatted in columns, I restored the columns, but so far without bullets. - Mardus ( talk) 10:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Place your votes here.
Further comments should be here.
Why is there no mention that this was probably state terrorism? I live in Riga and hear many people say this. Think about the facts and draw your own conclusions:
After the attack many people noted suspicious circumstance surrounding it:
+the attck took place in the main Latvian nationalist week, after November 18th, when the Latvian government usually whips up hatred of Russians.
+the attack happened in Zolitude, the area of Riga where the most Russians live.
+the attack happened, not in the middle of the night, when the store was empty but at 1800pm, when the store was at its busiest.
+the Latvian government refused help from foreign governments, especially Russias. (What did they have to hide?)
+the Latvian government ordered the scene cleaned up as quickly as possible (what did they have to hide?)
+despite it being a small incident, the prime minister of Latvia resigned just after a meeting with the president.
What many people think happened is this: the Latvian government, which has long wanted rid of its Russian inhabitants, planned the attack. Placing a small amount of explosives at key points on the roof timed to explode at a time when the store was at its fullest. (The building work gave perfect cover.) The attack happened without the knowledge of the President. The government thought he would just go along with it, even if he found out. However the President did find out, summoned the Prime Minister to a meeting and there, told him that he knew everything. He then blackmailed Dumbrovskis, threatening to expose the plot unless Dumbrovskis resigned and allowed Berzsins to appoint a puppet Prime Minister, who he could blackmail into doing his bidding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSRVsegda ( talk • contribs) 16:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
At the time of the attack, many people reported hearing an explosion. That is also in many, newspapers, so that has been written about. All the other facts I present above have been written about too! The Wikipedia report already says that Latvija refused the help of foreign governments. It already says that the Prime Minister resigned after a small incident after a meeting with the president. You can find out easily that Zolitude is the most Russian part of Riga. Please, tell the truth!! The only conspiracy is the Latvian government one!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSRVsegda ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
That's a very good point! There obviously where children in the store at the time of the bombing. How would there not be at such a busy time not long after school had finished? So the fact that no children where among the dead, is also very suspicious. A friend of my friend told her that her work colleague's young niece had been killed in the bombing and that this was being covered up. I've heard that a figure of 20 children where killed; why they do that is unclear. But I suspect the Latvian government is worried that if the truth ever does come out, having murdered Russian kids would only add to the shame. Only firefighters from Estonia, the only other country that hates Russias people more than Latvija does, where there "to observe"; why am I not surprised? Probably it will be better if Russian people in Estonia don't visit supermarkets in the center of that country soon, especially during Estonian nationalist week.
Zolitude is the most Russian district, that's a fact. No one has answered my question of why the collapse just happened at 1800, when the store was at it's most full? Why did Dombrovskis resign after such a minor incident? Did Tony Blair resign after the train crash in Britain or Obama after the hurricanes? No!! Clearly he resigned because he was guilty of something and was being blackmailed by those that found out, like the president. (Expect a close friend or ally of the President to be appointed as the new Prime Minister soon.)
It happened in Latvian nationalist week, when celebrations where taking place around Riga and anti-Russian prejudice is at it's worst and the comings of goings of those carrying out the attack would be less likely to be noticed. Most of the forensic evidence was destroyed quickly after, during the second collapse, which was likely organised as well. People didn't say they heard the sound of a building collapsing, they said they heard an explosion, like a bomb. Massive difference!! That was soon airbrushed out of later press reports. No, too many strange coincedences. As Latvija's press is mostly government controlled, I don't think we will hear the truth from them. That is why Wikipedia, like Wikileaks, should take the lead in exposing this conspiracy, not in simply parrotting Latvijan government propoganda. This should not be removed or censored from the article. How do I make sure that the information is fixed in the article and not removed by Latvian nationalists? Who is the main moderator for this page?
Also, I find the fact that Xil chooses to make jokes about this, by adding sly smily faced emoticons, very distasteful. The murder of around a hundred innocent people in an ethnic cleansing incident, is not a joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSRVsegda ( talk • contribs) 17:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Do not blame. Learn what happened, when happened, why it happened. Start with the model of disaster. Currently created model catastrophe: http://nyos.lv/f/uploads/Zolitude-2.pdf. According this model collapse of supermarket «Maxima»-result of resonant oscillations parts of the building, caused by an external source.Other models describe the individual properties of the building, which could contribute to crash or could not contribute to the crash. Reliably establish the numerical characteristics of these properties at the time of the disaster is not possible. TVERD ( talk) 11:50, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Just as I predicted, a puppet prime minister was indeed appointed by the Latvian president, who exceeded his autority (he is only supposed to be a constitutional figure head) to veto candidates of other parties so that his prefered candidate could get the job. I have added that, with a reference— Preceding unsigned comment added by SSSRVsegda2014 ( talk • contribs)
I said back in December: "Expect a close friend or ally of the President to be appointed as the new Prime Minister soon.)" That prediction what many others said was proved correct: Strajuma became Prime Minister "after President Berzins had already turned down several other candidates." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17528621 So a figure head president meddled in the political process to insure his own prefered candidate got the job. You have not rebutted any of the other points I made, just made insults. Tell me, Xil, how much do the Latvijan government pay you for keeping this page in there prefered sanitised version?
Just an observation - website of charity collecting donations for the injured and families of the victims reports that they've given money to 41 people who were hospitalized on 21 November and 17 people hospitalized later. [1] In the news, as far as I remember, 35 people were initially reported by paramedics (it rose to 39 few days later), however there was conflicting information on the night after the incident about around 40 injured that apparently was reported by police. Not sure, if charity is to be trusted as there have been reports about fraudsters trying to cash in on this and they might be reporting about family members of the victims or other people who were not in the store, but were somehow still involved ~~ Xil ( talk) 10:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
After the incident several more collapses in the past were brought up (including one other store of the same chain), while none of those involved dozens of victims and are not likely to get an article, this means that the current title could apply to several events. I suggest Maxima XX roof collapse in Zolitūde, which includes both the name of the store and the neiborghood, which would set it appart from other chains and other stores in the city ~~ Xil ( talk) 09:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Both that store and this store contain large grocery store and other shops.
Judging by definition in the article supermarket neither really is purely a supermarket in English usage, since both sold stuff other than groceries, but in Latvian usage the word is just slang for any self-service store.
The same chain was involved in an incident where roof collapsed due to snow in 2010 killing two people ( ref)
Look, the way I see it the issue is not if another building that fits the definition to the letter has collapsed, but if a human being can tell what the article is about just by seeing the title.
The current title can suggest any supermarket in the city
or even a supermarket named Riga,
meaning that the reader actually has to guess, if any other supermarket has collapsed, if any other collapse was in supermarket or what, instead of getting that information from the title.
Is confusing naming now a policy?
I gave you plenty of evidence, you started to analyze the ways in which the other stores are not supermarkets.
The policy suggests that name should be recognizable and precise enough for reader vaguely familiar with the subject matter to identify what the article is about.
The average person might not know exact definition of supermarket
or in what buildings the other collapses occurred.
That other articles fitting the title don't exist may as well prove either 1. that other collapses are not notable enough like I said)
or 2. nobody has bothered to write an article,
Besides using that logic one might as well give it even wider geographic scope - why not Latvia supermarket roof collapse or Baltic States supermarket roof collapse? The former was even used by several English language news sites.
And, yes, shops named Riga do exist
Shop roofs have collapsed elsewhere in Latvia too,
though, by now I'm sure that whatever I say none of those cases were comparable.
To me it seems that in Google search results narrowed to English Maxima is more popular term than Riga for this so I don't what source you are using to check your claim that it's other way around.
And I would not claim that a building containing large bookstore and several other shops is grāmatnīca either.
If supermarket is a large, self service grocery store (both the article on the topic and what you said before suggest this) then the building was not a supermarket.
You: Both that store and this store contain large grocery store and other shops. Judging by definition in the article supermarket neither really is purely a supermarket in English usage, since both sold stuff other than groceries, but in Latvian usage the word is just slang for any self-service store.
Me: In English usage, supermarkets often go well beyond selling groceries, but a store that doesn't sell groceries is never called a "supermarket".
It seems it can only be considered supermarket in Latvian slang sense of the word, wich covers any shopping center with self service shops just like the other examples I mentioned.
And the collapse did not involve only the part of building with the grocery store,
so it is not the same as with clothing store, which apparantely was the only store affected
(and even in that case it seems extremly weird to call it clothing store roof collapse, instead of shoping mall roof collapse)
So a building which contains several stores including large self service grocery store is a supermarket, except when there is a roof collapse in the building which does not affect the said grocery store?
Seems to me you are shifting goalposts, instead of trying to consider that this might fit under different title.
The intentional press might well have used the name Latvian news in English used.
I read the international news at the time, most of them got the basic facts wrong, so I doubt they were acutely aware what stores where in the building.
You, though, assume avarage reader will do better than media (whose job is to get facts right) and go "Oh, must be that Maxima case I read about some time ago since there it collapsed right over grocery store",
instead of wondering, which of several cases they know it must be
or if another "Riga supermarket" has collapsed
Maxima itself is a chain of grocery stores (XX stands for store size). In this case the owner of Maxima chain indirectly owned the building and rented the space to their own chain and some other self-service store chains, which they do not own, selling other sorts of goods.
And, sorry, but I won't make a translation for every article (it would require several hours of work) - sources in foreign languages are considered reliable and policy does not require translation
and I told you how the thing you want a source for is called.
I can't add this to article currently, but at least part of the building will be demolished in the comming weeks [7] ~~ Xil ( talk) 20:46, 15 August 2014 (UTC)