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it certainly meets the definition, per the wiki article on same and should be included in links This is a perfect example of an extreme biased article that shows only the fabricated good side of zionism. The deliberate suffering in form of blatant murderes inflicted on the local muslim population by the zionists are totally concealed.
Hello to the editor. I am new to wiki. So that is why may be I am not sure how I can contribute correctly. I added a fact about a discourse between the emperor of Iran and Rothschild and his suggestion for establishment of a Jewish state. I cited the reference and you can find tons of evidence for this discussion everywhere in the internet and from the historians. But unfortunately it was deleted from the page. I was wondering why? May be I should have put it in another format? Persia was an important player at that time. And as a mater of fact it had the biggest population of Jewish people living there in the Middle East before Israel was established. Your article only mentions thing related to Europe but there is a bigger world than Europe! And more players.
To the editor:
Adding a picture, will enhance and give a better view of the vital Anti-Zionism section in this article. Here are URL's:
http://www.nulitedesign.com/z_105/capt1.jpg http://www.nulitedesign.com/z_105/jewsburnisraeliflag.jpg http://www.nulitedesign.com/z_105/jaz_full.jpg
Please include one of the above. Thank You.
The article says that In 1947 Britain announced its intention to withdraw from Palestine, and on 29 November the United Nations General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state (with Jerusalem becoming an international enclave). Civil conflict between the Arabs and Jews in Palestine erupted immediately. There was no civil war it was invasion of European Jews taking over Palestinian homeland. The Spanish Civil War and American Civil War was classical civil war when a nation fight with itself. Nearly all Arab and Muslim states were still under colonial rule and could vote in United Nations. Siddiqui 07:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
the disputer is right to some extent.This was not a civil war. Rather it was an invasion of Jewish gangs, which you mentioned their names already, to Palestine. Why doesn't the essay mention anything about the massacares of Sebra and Shatila, when Ariel Sharon himself led the Israeli gangs to attack the innocent, unarmed Palestanin men, women and children in these palces. Also the essay call it the Isreali-Arab war. Where were the Arabs. Egypt was under the British Colony and so were many other Arab countries. Egypt sent some sample forces to Palestine in 1948 armed by second-hand, non-working arms that killed the Egyptian soliders not the Israeli.
Again the essay does not mention that Israel was the first side to start the 1967 war (the six-day war)and attaecked Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon and later Syria.
Also the essay call the PLO as a terrorist movement. How can we call people who are fighting to retain their stolen houses and land as terrorists. Why do not we call them self-defenders or fighters for independence like the French resistance in WWII! What is the difference? Germany occupied France and the Frenh formed forces to fight them! And the Jews occupied Palestine and the Palestanians formed forces to fight them. Be honest in telling the truth.
If this is the case, so why the international society does not condemn Israeli attacks on civilian Palestinians? Why they insist only on strongly condemning Palestinian attacks on Isreal? Isn't that strange? we all refuse killing civillians and innocent people whether palestinians or Israelians. But Palestaninans have the right to defend their freedom inside Israel, if they are so weak to attack the israeli army on the borders. Most of Palestinian attacks are targetted to Israeli soliders, but the problem is that Israeli army is mingeled with civilians inside the cities.It is like what the Americans were doing in Afghanstan. To target the Taliban agents, they had to kill alot of innocent Muslims living inside their cities.
The Zionist history says that Zionist gangs were formed from the beginning of Jewish immegration to Palestine. At the beginning, the Jewish settlement was protected by the British Occupation in Palestine. Then after the withdrawal of British troops, zionist gangs took the burden of protecting the new Jewish communities and of expanding and obtaining new lands. Consequently, The Arabs of Palestine formed some forces to prevent them and protect Arab communities and lands from bieng stolen by these gangs. And you can go back to the history of the first Palestinian organization to see how far was it from the beginning of the Zionist gangs like Stern and Hagana.
I didn't say that Israel started the 1948 war. I said Israel started the 1967 war.
Moreover, don't you know that the 1948 war was a retaliation to the Dier Yassin Massacre in 1947 where the three great organizations warriors of Zionism attacked the small, peacefull village of Dier Yassin. Also all people all over the world know the circumstances of this massacre and who to be blamed, Israelis or Palestanians? Motga5 13:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
"There was no civil war"
The article doesn't say "civil war" it says "civil conflict". Chia pet 17:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Despite your sarcastic way of editing, I will answer you. How do you say that 1948 war was a retaliation to the UN decision and has nothing to do with Dier Yassin Massacre. Do you know that Dier Yassin Massacre took place on 11 April 1948, one month before the 1948 war. While the UN decision of partition was on 1947. So how did you reach this conclusion that the war had nothing to do with Dier Yassin?
You say that Dier Yassin was a hostile village hosting Iraqi soliders who attack israeli settlements. Read this and tell me what you know: "Goldshmidt, raised in that suburb, had been sworn by his father to avenge armed attacks emanating from Deir Yassin against Givat Shaul during Arab-Jewish-British strife of the 1920s and 1930s. But during the 1948 conflict, Deir Yassin was studiously honoring a Haganah-sponsored agreement to refrain from hostilities with neighboring Jewish areas in exchange for protection from Jewish attack. One Lehi member, David Siton, protested that hitting a nonhostile village might endanger western Jerusalem. A Lehi reconnaissance appears to have confirmed the village's nonhostility. And although Irgun district commander Mordechai Raanan insisted Deir Yassin was part of an Arab logistical route to Kastel, he had to concede after another reconnaissance that the town appeared docile.(10)". for more and true account of the massacre read: [1]. Yes, maybe the jewish people have lived peacefully in Palestine before the issue of Israel, like they did in other Arab countries. But don't you ask yourself, Why is all this happenening now, i mean since the establishment of Israel and the Jews are all the time with conflict with neighbouring Arabs, Mulsims and Christians? Yes, they were peaceful, but then after the immergence of the idea of Israeli state in Palestine, Jews started their attacks, their conspirecies, their operations and their policies to banish the Arabs and built their settlements in their homes and Lands in Palestine. So it is so normal that the Arabs in Palstine, who are under aggressive attacks to steal their land and homes, rise to defend themselves and thier lands like any free man will do. Imagine you are sitting in your home peacefully with your family, and suddenly some intruder break in and tell you "hey get out of here, that's the house of my grand grandfather! you have two choices; sell it for me or I will burn this house on you!?" What will you do then? Motga5 14:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all, fighting had already borken about before Deir Yassin, second of all you are commiting a logical fallacy, you are suggesting that because event x came after event Y, Event Y automatically cause event X.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification. But if things went as you say and the war began before Dier Yassin, how do you expect me to belive that the Zionest forces will leave the Arab forces and focus its attention on a small beaceful village like Dier Yassin, where they spent a whole night attacking this village? Isn't it a little strange for any forces to leave the real fighting and go to attack a small village in that time?
Secondly, I didn't say that Dier Yassin was the ONLY cause for 1948 war. That's will be silly of course. I said it was a retaliation to it. That's mean that it was the last leave on the bush. And it was the trigger that moved the intention for fighting the Zionest Gangs in Palestine. And I have another question for you. Why do you insist that 1948 war was not a result for Dier Yassin Massacre? Is that because Israel feels guilty for this Massacre? Is that because Israel couldn't deny this masscre as it did for all other aggressive attacks the Jewish forces have done on Palestinians? Answer me please. Motga5 07:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think you didn't read the dispute carefully. firstly I didn't started the debate. I took part in it after two or three comments by other people, Arabs and Israelis favors. Secondly, my opinions are based on historical facts, not nontruths like you say. Sabra and Shatiela was committed by Christian militants, but who bushed them to do so, who gave them the way to do so. Can you deny that Ariel Sharon was surrounding the camp with his army and opened the way to the Christian militants to committ this massacre. Can you deny that he, Ariel Sharon, was looking at the massacre with satan eyes from atop a high building that overlooks the camps and he was happy to see the Lebanese people slaughtered by his Christian militants followers.
Thirdly, yes Egypt blokced the islaes in the Red Sea, but who on earth believe that this was the cause of the war? Who on earth believe that this formidable military plan was a reaction to Naser's decision of blocking the isles. Sir, this was an Israeli plan, put many years ago to overcome the only strong threat to Israel in the region these days.
I think you only know, or pretend to know the surface and didn't read history carefully. Everyone in the world now knows what was hidden under the false news and misleading news. Read history again sir. 196.204.25.218 14:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The wonderful UN, as one of its first notable deeds, started an aggressive war that is still ongoing. No wonder they can't seem to help anywhere.
Given that the 'Jew' Judaism template has a link to this article, surely the template belongs in the article? Zionism is undeniably connected to Judaism; yes, even secular Zionism. Nomist 02:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that Israel had the capability to initiate an attack on 4 different countries... (look up the definition in Wikipedia and dispute that stance) but if it had then why did the Arab nations give up so easily during the six day war? Do you think that a war involving FIVE countries would last a mere 6 days? ESPECIALLY if all but one of the nations were on the same side... no.
Self defenders? That's cool... defend your land and faith. Thats cool. Initiating attacks on other countries because of your _________ (fill in the blank) [unresolved conflict regarding your faith] or [unresolved conflicts regarding your role in the world] even better... but your independence?! Like the French? I'm laughing at this point because how the hell are Islamic fundamentalists fighting for their "freedom" or their "independence"? Do you honestly think that they are attacking America or Israel for their own independence as a people? Are those two countries going to grant them that?! That's absolutely grand, by all means. The "Palenstines" are a diverse people of many faiths. they are not only Muslims as many would like to believe. You tell the truth. Dear Allah/God/Whatever.
The difference is faith. Faith in your afterlife or your people's future. France had faith in their nationality. Muslims have faith in what they hope will happen to them after this life. Big difference. Afterlife faith is selfish comparably to the future of this world without you.
there is no such thing as anti-zionism it is a made up word, and should have no place in wikipedia which is an encyclopedia all elements that cite factual sources on the concept of zionism - whether they are supportive or not supportive should be under the category of zionism
I really do not understand your point or how it even makes sense. Anti-Zionism is a term that is recognized by mainstream scholars and is used to denote a few specific types of opposition to Zionism.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 11:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
this is NOT evidence anti semitism. The fist one is evidence of blood libel, which has been applied to jews, chrisitians ,etc alike see blood libel. The second one is evidence of a group acting treasonous against Iraq, It has NOTHING to do with being Jewish, as to the Israeli-Arab war, this is to do with zionism, and the colonisation of palestine by european jews Talk 11:04 17 May.
Once again I do not see the relavance, or really how anything you just wrote makes sense.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Zalani 05:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)Unfortunately, since the exposure of the State of Israel's apartheid policies in Western media, and especially with the establishment of the Apartheid Wall ( [2]) that has been pronounced illegal by the International Court of Justice ( [3]), world view has come to regard the Zionist policies of Israel as expansionist and racist. Zalani 05:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Direct (i.e. legally sanctioned) discrimination against Israeli Arabs exists. This is no secret. I merely provide (cited) examples to explain why "some consider" such practices racist. Trachys 05:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
ummm yes there is
Saladin, you can't use a website like jewsagainstzionism.com as a source. Please review WP:V and WP:RS. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Saladin1970, earlier you have replaced external links in the article, now you have removed my comment. Stop this vandalism now. ← Humus sapiens ну? 10:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there any source for the latter part of the following statement: In 1937, Ben-Gurion and almost all of his party leadership supported a British proposal to create a small Jewish state from which the Arabs had been removed by force. This statement appears in Zionism#Zionism_and_the_Arab_Muslims_and_Arab_Christians. The Peel Commission Report (1937) makes no mention, and even explicitly mentions the inclusion of Galilean Arabs in the prospective Jewish state. Tewfik Talk 23:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have added a few facts about NK, and about the non discriminatory nature of Israel. Incorrect 03:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Removed by force - well that seems to be what happened. I bet there must have been something done to make it happen - maybe magic.
I don't see any evidence that it happened. Israel officially invited Arabs to stay in their declaration of independence. And many Arabs did. Approxoimately 20% of the entire Israeli population are Arab-Israeli citizens. Did ANY Arabs flee the war zone created by invading Arab armies and at the urging of Arab leaders? Absolutely. But, this does not prove they were forced out. And when Israel invited 100,000 refugees to come to Israel as a good faith gesture to start peace talks, they were rejected by Arab leaders who refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and felt even allowing refugees into Israel with Israeli permission would be acknowledgement.
Even if Israel invites all of the misplaced people back to get what they originaly had, Israel is still guilty of taking a land that is not her's, and does not make the whole problem of erasing a nation and a culture that existed there for more than 1000 years OK, if someone steals your stuff and then gives you a bit of it back he will still be guilty of stealing wouldn't he, that does not make israel a saint.
Since Zionism is such a varied and significant family of ideologies, I propose a Zionism template along the lines of templates such as Socialism and Liberalism, which feature in the Politics series of Political ideologies. What do people think? Nomist 16:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Good idea. Amibidhrohi 17:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I think I suggested this on May 14th 2006 under the Judaism template discussion (see above). Ah well. Oboler 01:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Zalani 05:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)I support this because there were massacres that followed, the most notrious of which is Deir Yassin. Please either refer to the following web site: http://www.deiryassin.org/. More important as a neutral resource is the published book of Walid Khalidi, Before Their Diaspora, ( [4]) which has a rich reportoir of photographs and documents (of historical and anthropological value) that attest to the existance of an Arab Palestinian people and culture (Muslim, Christian and Jewish) before the establishment of the state of Israel. Zalani 05:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
you are very ignorant, dark-skinned?! yasser arafat is dark-skineed?! his wife, suha is dark-skineed?! just shut it,troll.
Zionism is a farce, created by non-religious Jews to leave Europe for Uganda, however, when that failed they went to Palestine instead. Then claiming "religious lineage" to the land they were banished and exiled from by God according to Rabbinic teachings.
anyone with a strong feeling one way or the other should not be contributing to this article due to the intensity of the subject matter. Most of this discussion is in no way relevant to an encyclopedia entry.
Would it be safe to say Zionism is a theocratic theory since it promotes state rule for people of a certain religion?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.92.235.125 ( talk • contribs)
Umm, no, because it doesn't support "State rule for a people of a particular religion", also Zionism is not religious in nature.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This reading from the Jewish Encyclopedia had been added to the article:
"The extent to which the Zionist idea has spread among the Jewish people may be seen not only in the number of Jews affiliated with the Zionist organization and congress, but also in the fact that there is hardly a nook or corner of the Jewish world in which Zionistic societies are not to be found. Even where no such organizations exist expressions of approval and adhesion have come from bodies of Jews who have lived practically cut off from all connection with the course of Jewish life. Notable were communications, together with subscriptions for the fund, from a band of descendants of Portuguese Jews in Manecoré in Amazonas, Brazil (March 12, 1901), from Jews settled in Chile, and from the Jadid al-Islam in Khorasan (1901); while societies exist in Tshita (Siberia, on the Manchurian border), Tashkent, Bokhara, Rangoon (Burma), Nagasaki, Tokyo, Hongkong, Singapore, and among the American soldiers in the Philippines. The Shanghai Zionist Association was founded in 1903; the Dr. Herzl East Africa Zionist Association in Nairobi (East-African Protectorate) in 1904. In Australia there are four Zionist federations: New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, and West Australia. Queensland has its own federation with its center in Brisbane, and New Zealand has several societies. Even among the Russian Jews settled by the Jewish Colonization Association in Argentina, there is a federation comprising four societies. A Zionist congress was held there May 16, 1904, comprising delegates of 1,150 shekel-paying members. In every country of Europe, in the United States, along the North-African coast, and in Palestine similar societies are to be found. At the St. Louis Exposition, 1904, the Zionist flag (blue and white stripes, with a "Magen Dawid" in the center) floated from one of the buildings together with those of other nationalities."
I had trimmed it to just "there is hardly a nook or corner of the Jewish world in which Zionistic societies are not to be found," which I think summarizes effectively the entire passage. Why do the two other editors feel it is important to include a gazeteer in the article? I think it adds nothing beyond length and tangentially interesting facts such as that there were Jewish communities in various remote areas near the beginning of the last century.
Where should {{ Political ideologies}} go? Is there a way to put templates on the left side of an article?-- The ikiroid ( talk· desk· Advise me) 22:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but article reads POV to me. I support the idea of having a template, because this is a family of ideologies. Also, this article is not the place to go into the ancient history of Judaism in the Levant, except to describe as accurately and neutrally as possible what Zionists believe. I would change introductory sentence to saying that Zionists believe there should be a Jewish homeland in "the Levant" rather than either "the Land of Israel" or "Palestine". "The Levant" is neutral. But is this in fact accurate, or have there been varieties of Zionism that did not think that a Jewish land had to be specifically in Palestine? Following a shortened introduction, the history of Zionism should be started from when it actually started as a movement - 19th century? Not go into ancient history which is not relevant to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itsmejudith ( talk • contribs)
Could someone explain why "hence" is in this sentence (which does not seem to follow logically to me "It is however, important to note that the Zionist movement predates the Holocaust by some ninety years, hence the aftermath of the Holocaust did not lead to the creation of the State of Israel." The desire predates, but how does this imply that the fulfilment was not as a result of...
I Just wanted to inform that the first item - ""Confessions of an Arab Zionist" seems to be a prank, since the author's name "Kalb Ibn Kalb" means "a dog son of a dog" in Arabic... a rather unusual name for a person. I would be really glad if someone fix this please.
"Resolution 3379 states that 'Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.'" Ought we not to mention this? Smitty Mcgee 18:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The [ Jerusalem Program] is the Zionist definition of Zionism. Its absense from this article is a major oversight, akin to, but more serious than, an article about the U.S. Declaration of Independence without mentioning John Locke. The Jerusalem Program is important, among other reasons, because it is emphatically the right of Zionists to say what Zionism is; because it lays out the aims and foundations of Zionism; and because it shows the pluralism of Zionism: Zionism is not just political; it has cultural, spiritual, and moral dimensions also. Anomalocaris 16:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I most certainly do not want to get dragged into some sort of flame war and so I will (cowardly) leave to someone else the task of failing this for good article status. However, I think that it will and should fail because
Pascal.Tesson 04:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The Good article nomination for Zionism/Archive 8 has failed, for the following reason:
I came to the Zionism article in the hope of finding some mention of spirtual Zionism. By spiritual Zionism, I mean an interpretation of Zion as a spirtual realm, not a physical place in Israel/Palestine or anywhere else. I was taught (ages ago in a religion class at university) that there was also this kind of Zionism, I think. Does this kind of Zionism exist and if so is there an article about it? I have had a look around and see that
This is not what I mean. I am looking for the Jewish faction (if such exist) who believe in the creation of a spiritual realm of Zion. Or are these people Christians :-)! It seems to me that the Christians are into a spiritual interpretation of Zion but you would think that there are also some Jews that while rejecting Jesus, also go for a spiritual interpretation of Zion. Please feel free to delete this when you post directions to a Spiritual Zionism. Or is it only a Christian (I was brought up as one) that be so absurd as to suggest that Zion and Zionism might be interpretted spiritually?
Is there a Zionism which sees "Zion" as a spiritual state? -- Timtak 07:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC) Come to think of it, perhaps this "talk" should be in the Anti-Zionism page if anywhere, since Zionism is almost universally taken to be concrete and this Spiritual interpretation is "Anti" the standard interpertation. -- Timtak 02:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Meccaism: The princibale of spreading Arab culture and Islam throughout the world. Meccaist followers of Meccaism
... I believe the (recently removed) link spotlighting Orthodox dissent and opposition to Zionism belongs here.
If it should only be in one article, I believe it should be featured in this one, as this article has the most visibility, and the dissent is eminently relevant to the subject. Thoughts? BYT 18:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
After so many explicit and direct appeals to you for help, Jay, this response is so disingenuous as to be disruptive. Once again, I would like to ask you (although perhaps I shouldn't expect an answer): Is there a [ policy] that states this link may not be placed here, and must instead be placed at Anti-Zionism? BYT 18:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Is that the argument? A collection of historical quotes from rabbis of generations past, holding forth on the phenomenon of Zionism, a political movement, is not relevant to this article? Pretty shady reasoning here, friends. Break it down for me, please. BYT 15:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
You're changing the subject. What I asked was, is any site that offers this perspective on Zionism as a political philosophy, by definition, a "fringe" site? That seems to be what you're trying to enforce here.
Also, and while we're on the subject, I'd appreciate it if you stopped repeating this business about Anti-Zionism covering the subject of anti-Zionism. I know that.
I also know that there is no WP policy stating that discussion of opposing views to a political philiosophy must be covered in an article called Anti-Whatever. And, as we've seen, there is the practical example of Socialism, which features end-of-article links to sites hostile to socialism.
Once again: Are you trying to enforce some standard whereby any resource is considered to be connected to a "fringe" group if it opposes Zionism? BYT 12:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Brandon, please stop wikilawyering, and please don't make false claims in your edit summaries (e.g. "per talk page"). This article is about Zionism, the other article is about Anti-Zionism. The links appropriate to each go in their respective pages. I note that the latest link you've added isn't even about Zionism at all, but rather a link to an organization which is against "Israeli Occupation", and which happens, in passing, to state that Zionism is not the same thing as Judaism, a position held by most Jewish groups, even if they are Zionist. Your addition of irrelevant links is increasingly disruptive. Jayjg (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm saying don't put words in my mouth, and don't misquote me. The continual addition of dubious links is disruptive, as is claiming that you had cleared them "per talk page". There are now four good reasons not to add the links you've added, including the fact that the latest was not on the topic. You have yet to refute any of them. Please feel free to come up with a new argument. Jayjg (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The guideline, WP:External links, says we should not add links to "Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research." That seems to sum up the links you want to add, and one of them was not about Zionism anyway. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
In that ...? BYT 17:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
After creating so many direct and explicitly worded appeals to you for help on a question to which there is presumably a clear answer, Jay, I begin to wonder when a disingenuous response, like the one above, crosses the line into irresponsible behavior on the part of an admin. Once again-- I would like to know if there is a [ policy] that instructs us to move a link like this away from Zionism and into Anti-Zionism. If there is, can you please point me towards it? It's really not that difficult a question. BYT 18:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Jay, I'm asking you a question about WP guidelines, one you resolutely refuse to answer. For it to be a strawman argument, or indeed any kind of argument, I would have to make an assertion for debate. This, what we're doing right now, would be a different animal entirely, namely a discussion. I'm trying to get your help on improving this page, and trying to find out whether there are WP policies supporting the line you've drawn here.
Re: below. I'm absolutely blown away by the eerie coincidence that my latest proposed link falls short of your standards for inclusion here. Just for the record, are you going to be checking every other university link to be sure that it doesn't connect to an individual professor's homepage? And (to be clear) are you saying that this professor is not a credible source?
Thanks, too, for your examples. Are you now planning to go clean up Marxism and make sure they eliminate the final section of links there? Some of them are critical of Marxism. You're saying that's against the (continuously unspecified but nevertheless binding) rules, right? BYT 23:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence of the introduction is very wierd. It defines Zionism as to whitewash anti-semitism, but then gives the example of anti-zionist. This example inappropriately gives sympathy to zionism without really addressing the "whitewash anti-semitism" part.
Overall, I think that the entire article did not address the reasons why non-Jews would be anti-zionism, which is actually the interest of reading the article for non-Jews.- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.251.118 ( talk • contribs)
Reliable source, not a personal website, about only Zionism.
What's the reasoning, please? If it's because you feel this link "belongs" at Anti-Zionism and only there, please show me the policy that says that's the way we have to go here. BYT 17:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I placed a quote in the article that ...
It has been instantly reverted -- twice -- with the explanation that it represents a "fringe" viewpoint.
Any explanation here as to why we should not openly admit now that such material is unacceptable because any and every such citation is regarded by editors here as "fringe" by virtue of its opposition to Zionism? Is that the policy we're following, or am I missing something? BYT 13:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I have (quite patiently, I think) followed your every suggestion, Jay, and abandoned every single link to which you objected. If the goal is to improve the quality of the article, you've got to give me a little bit of credit for trying here. Each and every editing problem you've identified, I've dutifully addressed. I'm very sorry if the early edits I made on this site weren't up to your standards, but at least I don't push the same mistake over and over again. (Addendum -- those "crappy links" to which you objected were added in error. If there is no consensus to include them, they shouldn't be in, and I apologize for the mistake of not seeing them.)
My question stands. Exactly what was wrong with the quote I inserted? BYT 15:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Trolling is, by definition, geared toward provoking a reaction ... and not toward improving the article.
I want to address a major omission in this piece: the visceral nature of much historic and contemporary Jewish opposition to Zionism. That's why I am focusing, repeatedly, on the question of exactly what you and other editors here need to see from me in order for us to address this issue. So far, it's been like nailing Jell-o to a wall.
Is there any particular reason you don't want to tell me what was wrong with the quote I inserted this morning? BYT 16:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
You honestly think I enjoy this? Talk about disingenous. We have here an article on a political philosophy that, for some reason, is immune to the level of intellectual scrutiny accorded to, say, Marxism. If someone else would carry this bucket, I'd be more than happy to find another one to carry around. In the meantime ... talk pages are for discussing article content, right? And I made an edit this morning, right? And you didn't like it, right? Is it fair for me ask why? BYT 16:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
And here's where I need some help, Humus. Which fringe sect, specifically? Does it have a name, or any identifying characteristics other than that of holding politically unpopular views? As it stands, "fringe" seems to be a catch-all term for "anyone whoever has disagreed with, or now disagrees with, the central tenets of Zionism." It's like saying anyone in Texas who didn't vote Republican in 2004 is a "fringe sect." BYT 18:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I don't think it's good faith to systematically sanitize an article about a political philosophy so as to ensure that no meaningful representation of those who dissent from it can appear in the text. We don't do that with Marxism. We don't do that with Libertarianism (do check out some of the body blows to that system of thought that appear in that article). We don't do that with Liberation theology. I am at an utter loss as to why we should airbrush Zionism. BYT 21:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
What I'm studiously avoiding is the diversionary tactic of accepting an invitation to go work on other articles (seemingly, any other articles) in some Quixotic attempt to obtain later, quasi-papal dispensation from you to work on this one. Not the purpose of our project.
For the record, Islam today produces nothing close to a coherent, unifying political philosophy; it is a faith system, and we, its followers, are manifestly incoherent and ununified. The better comparison would not be with articles like Islam or Judaism or Hinduism, but rather with Islamism, an article which, lo and behold, reads for long passages very much as though it were a prosecutor's brief against the philosophy in question. That's okay, though, yes?
Communism (the article) is a strange bird because it's 80-90% backward-looking; the states and movements it describes are mostly defunct. Not a great analogue with contemporary Zionism. Again, I ask you to consider the intriguing comparisons to be made between this article and the (to my mind) more vigorous and balanced assessments appearing at Marxism, Liberation theology, and Libertarianism ... but sometimes one feels as though one is raising points that will simply never, ever be addressed directly, for Reasons People Choose Not to Specify. Speaking of which, there are several overdue questions to you, Jay, about what, specifically, you don't like about this edit. I'm not sure I would lecture too long or too eagerly about people studiously avoiding uncomfortable subjects on this page. BYT 02:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The halachic discussion is incomplete in that it does not mention the important distinction between individual and communal aliyah. All modern halachic authorities I know of (including Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggrot Moshe) agree that there is an individual requirement and there is a communal prohibition of aliyah. So the article's discussion is completely misrepresentative of the currently accepted halacha when it discusses whether it is among the 613 mitzvot. The debate within halacha is whether the communal prohibition mentioned in the Talmud was nullified or it is Aggadic as opposed to halachic, which are the positions of religious Zionists. 75.3.193.243 21:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
.. on this edit. If people oppose it, please share on what grounds the opposition rests. BYT 13:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Asking, rather, about this edit on Zionism.
Do people support it? If so, why?
Do people oppose it? If so why? BYT 20:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
What's our source for the new "Tenets" section? These seem to be specific assertions, yet the text also notes that they are bitterly disputed, so we should have references for them. - Will Beback 20:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I restored the tenets, and added the definition of Zionism in the opening sentence as a nationalist movement. Since they appear to be contested, and may be gone by the time you read this, they are:
These are disputed propositions, but it is not in dispute that Zionism makes these claims. With one exception the opening paragraph is not 'sourced' either, and it also says Zionism seeks a Jewish national homeland. This article downplays the origin of Zionism as a 19th century European nationalist movement, and that needs to be corrected. Paul111 19:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This is from the Zionist website zionismontheweb.org [9]:
The website also says, inter alia, that Zionism is the 'national revival movement', that it 'holds that the Jews are a people' and 'therefore have the right to self-determination', in their 'historical homeland'.
All of these are common assertions of Zionism, and the sourced definition as as national liberation movment implies it is a a nationalist movement (one is a subset of the other). Paul111 20:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
[Jay], You're not making edits without discussing them, I hope. BYT 21:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm very disappointed to see you make these kinds of accusations, Jay. It's not what I had come to expect of an admin of your caliber.
My edit summary was completely above board: It did in fact include a major style edit, and it also provided a citation for a paragraph that had no citation -- the very same paragraph I've been talking about at length, and trying to get your input on, for the last few days.
I now know, and need no further reminding, that you don't like people working on this article who disagree with you. There comes a point where that is not my problem. I'm now going to ask you to stop suggesting that I work elsewhere.
As for tendentious editing... it's an interesting charge for you to make. BYT 22:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I hardly see how, with the revert troops standing guard. What anti-Zionist element, specifically, are you suggesting has actually shown up in the text since I started work here? BYT 22:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Move along, BYT - your constant attempts to insert irrelevant POV here are tiresome, and your "no good faith edits" clock was just reset. Jayjg (talk) 18:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a slight double standard when describing the Middle East conflict.
In the article Zionism, the PLO is desribed as using terrorism as a means of political 'struggle'. Surely the PLO's form of political struggle is the same as those used by extremists in the former Zionist movement, as described in the Zionist political violence article?
As such, shouldn't either the 'Zionist political violence' be more obviously classified as terrorism, or the Palestinian 'terrorism' described in this article and on wikipdia be edited to 'political violence'.
That would remove any unintended, slight bias - as it is obvious that the two terms dont have equivalent neutrality.
-- Snellios 21:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The term is not accurate for early Zionism. It implies something like the FRETILIN, which is already in the national homeland and conducting military operations against the percieved imperial power. Although that comparison is accurate for the Mandate-period armed groups, it would apply that early Zionists were fighting a war against the Ottoman Empire or intended to fight one. Its use after 1948, for the State of Israel, is non-standard since states are not considered liberation movements. The post-1948 claims on territory are properly described as irredentism. Paul111 11:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
On second thoughts, the description as a 'national liberation movement' improves the intro paragraph. It has connotations of armed struggle, and will remind readers of the fact that some Zionists use force to secure their goals - that is a prominent feature of Zionism. The perspective of this article should not be the Zionist perspective, although it should include the Zionist perspective. More on that per specific issue. Paul111 12:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Is Zionism a movement toward the liberation of a nation? What nation is seeking liberation from what subjucation? Some people's view of history would agree, but I don't think this is a demonstrable claim. "Zionism is a national liberation movement": I do not believe this is a fact-based claim. Moreover, what sort of liberty is being asserted?
It doesn't matter if the term "national liberation movement" is sourced; it's still biased, and many would disagree with that label. I can give you dozens of sources accusing zionism of being "racist" or "racialist," but that doesn't really mean shit.
English is governed only by its speaker, so there is no authority to declare which uses of a word are "incorrect." (Just consult Humpty Dumpty from Alice :) POV..
uh.. what? Do you mean "attacks on jews?"
Guess.
"Whitewash" is POV. JayW 16:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Paul111, your "principles" section appears to be an original research summary of one specific article, though not really properly sourced. The article doesn't need one specific summary of this complex movement, nor does it need the specific one you have chosen. Jayjg (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Multiple sources were asked for. Since the essay was already used (by the same people who objected to the unsourced section), as a definitive source for Zionist principles, I used it too. The source is the World Zionist Organisation, which is at least for Zionist self-definition a reliable source. The tenets or principles or characteristics do not need a separate section, they can all go in the intro paragraph, so if I have time, I will insert them there one by one. The Jerusalem Programme is not a sufficient description of Zionism, as seen from nationalism theory. Paul111 11:57, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Zionism is not accurately or adequately described in the existing version, because it lacks any theoretical or comparative perspective, and because is written largely as a history of the Zionist movement, which is not the same thing as an article on Zionism. Paul111 14:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
A central claim of all nationalist movements, is that they speak for a nation. Although the intro paragraph says Zionism is a nation, it speaks of the Jewish people in this context. Implied is that the Jewish people is the same thing as the Jewish nation, but the intro is neither explicit or unambiguous. The intro should clarify the issue, so to begin with a source is needed for the claims that the Jewish people is a nation. That can be a Zionist source, since nationhood is a claim of Zionism. The correct theoretical position seems to be this: "the late 19th century Zionist movement claimed that the Jewish people were a nation, a description which was not until then in general use". Paul111 12:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
From the use of two separate terms. Paul111 13:46, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The whole point of Zionism was to assert that the group long known as Jews were in fact a nation - comparable to other nations, and entitled to the same status. The simplest thing is to say that in the intro, which will eliminate the confusion. Paul111 10:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The article does not need to either prove or disprove that Jews are a nation. It has to say that that is a central claim of Zionism, and one which distinguishes it both from previous Jewish movements, and from the competing Jewish movements and opinions which rejected that idea of a separate nation-state for Jews. I added that to the intro. Paul111 10:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
No term which is millennia old can be accurately translated by the English word nation, or its equivalent in other European languages, since they date back to the Middle Ages, see Nation. It is a common claim of nationalist movements that their own nation is very old, Iranian nationalism appropriated empires dating back 5000 years as examples of the 'Iranian nation'. The article should not take sides on such issues, but instead note that the nationhood claim is central to Zionism. Herzl: "Wir sind ein Volk, ein Volk". Paul111 10:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that Zionism advocates migration to Israel is so central, and so distinctive, that it deserves mention in the introduction. The formation of the State of Israel was dependent on that migration, even with natural growth the 1850 Jewish population in Ottoman Palestine would never have achieved a sovereign state. Further on in the article, the demographics should be mentioned. Around 1890, 98% to 99% of Jews lived outside Ottoman Palestine. The article should also indicate where Jews lived: in eastern Europe. That is also relevant for the historical background of early Zionism, as an eastern European (and largely German-speaking) movement. Paul111 14:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Moving this to talk: examples of such discrimination include citizenship rights, which are designed to privilege Jews, and the recognition provided for quasi-governmental Jewish organizations such as the Jewish Agency for Israel and the World Zionist Organisation, from which Arabs are excluded. - 1) Every country has certain preferences for immigration (note how the "citizenship rights" above is cleverly pipelinked to Law of Return, i.e. this is not about citizens but about immigration) and just as any other country, the State of Israel decides these matters according to its laws. 2) non-governmental (and not "quasi-governmental") organizations such as the Jewish Agency for Israel or World Zionist Organisation are as relevant to Arabs as the Arab League to Jews. ← Humus sapiens ну? 09:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I asked for sources for the assertion that Zionism began "largely" as a response to anti-semitism. Anti-semitism existed long before the emergence of Zionism, and it can not, in itself, explain the origin of modern Zionism. Here the lack of comparative perspective is evident, since there were other Jewish responses to anti-semitism, roughly: emancipation, assimilation and religious withdrawal. The intro does not point out what made Zionism different, namely that it asserted that Jews were a nation, and consequently entitled to a separate state.
A citation is also needed for the claim that Zionism is a response to antisemitism "in many parts of the Muslim world". This is an anachronism, it projects the current concerns onto 19th century Zionists. The position of Jews in the "Muslim world" was not a major issue in Europe at that time. The term "Muslim world" itself is an anachronism in this context. So the source should not simply say that there was anti-semitism in the 'Muslim world', but that it was a major factor in the emergence of Zionism. I don't think there is a reliable source for that assertion, discounting pseudo-history of the "Hitler-was-a-Muslim" type. Paul111 10:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The intro text said that Zionism was "largely" a response to anti-semitism, and I asked for a source for that. The two articles you quote don't say that, and both of them emphasise that Zionism sought a Jewish state. I have now added an explicit point that it was not an 'anti-antisemitism movement'. Paul111 10:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The phrasing implies that Zionism consists of a response to anti-semitism. It also implies that there is a unique causal relationship: IF there is antisemitism, THEN Jews will EITHER not respond, OR become Zionists. Noted already: anti-semitism predates Zionism, and can not be the explanatory factor for its emergence, when it did emerge. It also does not explain why this response became the dominant response, i.e, it ignores the historical context. Paul111 10:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I asked for a citation for 'national sovereignty' as an aspiration of the Jewish Revolt and of Jews in the succeeding centuries. This is another anachronism, the concept 'national sovereignty' is at most early-modern. Paul111 11:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Now changed to "political and religious independence from Rome". The rest of the section has more anachronisms, and vague terms like 'humanbased', which need to be clarified. Paul111 10:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It is an anachronism for the time of the Jewish Revolt. I think there are some sources for Jewish proto-nationalism at that time, but then the term proto-national should be used. Paul111 10:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I've changed the description of Zionism as a "national liberation movement" from being stated as a fact to being attributed to Zionists, for two reasons. Firstly, all the citations are partisan opinions rather than factual sources. Secondly, it is fundamentally a matter of opinion and not of fact. Moopiefoof 00:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Who was the 'national liberation movement' fighting against, at first? The Ottoman Empire? That is the historical issue. As for the implications, the term probably has a net negative image, since many people will think: "ah, national liberation movement, IRA, ETA, terrorism". Paul111 10:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The standard usage of 'national liberation movement' implies that there is an opponent, usually the colonial power. For movements which sought to improve the position of Jews in non-Jewish societies, emancipation is a better word. Paul111 09:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
That migration is typical of diaspora nationalism in the strict sense. However it is still not what most people understand under national liberation movement. I said before that the term is applicable to the Irgun but it is stretching the usage to include the early Zionists, holding meetings in Switserland, as a 'national liberation movement'. Paul111 17:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The Holocaust accelerated migration to Israel, and established the Zionist option as the only realistic option in the eyes of many European Jews. Without the accelerated immigration, it is unlikely that the British Mandate would have accepted a Jewish state as early as 1948. Paul111 10:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the eliminantion of all Jews would have meant the end of Zionism, but that did not happen. The British opposed Jewish immigration but finally gave in on that issue, partly because of the volume of immigration, which was a direct result of the Holocaust and the post-war displacements. Paul111 10:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Zionism is not an ideology in the most-used sense of the word, i.e.,
or "an organized collection of ideas." It is rather a political movement based on the perceived needs of a specific group. The referenced article does not seek to prove anything different but uses rather the term "ideology" in the sense of a conceptual framework. -- Leifern 15:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Zion-ism is strictly speaking the ideology of the Zionist movement. The suffix -ism indicates that the original use was for the ideology, but since it is common in English to extend -ism to cover movements, Zionism can be applied to the movement. Zionism certainly is 'a systematic body of concepts', and would fit most other definitions of ideology too. Paul111 10:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
A rough, but perhaps instructive, chronology.
I offered evidence of this phenomenon, and proposed that it be included in this article, and heard [I am paraphrasing throughout]...
Okay. Thanks for the qualifier. What I'm saying here is that simply acknowledging the existence of this (historical and contemporary) phenomenon, as we do now, is not enough to result in an article that's in balance. It's severely out of balance now, because you could read it and learn little or nothing of the depth of feeling on this issue.
If I "find a reliable source that asserts that modern-day religious Jewish anti-Zionism is anything other than trivial," I'm doing so because I want to cite that source in the article. I don't know what form that citation is going to take, because I haven't done the research yet. Fair? BYT 22:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The perspective I'm trying to make sure we include will be concise, but I know for a fact it is going to take more than an edit on a single word. The main thing I'm after here right now is a dialogue, and some consistent (not consistently changed) feedback on this talk page that a) takes place before someone reverts text and b) acknowledges when I've duly addressed an issue someone has raised. That way the process of discussion won't resemble a moving target. Why don't I do the work and show it to you and we can all see what we think, okay? BYT 22:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Are zionism and anti-zionism phenomenally distinct topics in the sense that socialism and communism, or capitalism and corporatism, are? Are there two WP articles because they are actually separate or because a simple 'Criticism' subsection in the Zionism article became too long and warranted a separate article?
I don't understand why criticism of Zionism cannot be included on both articles. Jay's stance seems either very (editorially) pedantic or very deceptive. Hide&Reason 07:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
With all respect, Jay, I don't think you've answered the question. He asked why we couldn't aim for a better balance of coverage by transferring some of the links to Zionism.
You're talking about what has been done in the past ("these articles have been split in two"), which is interesting and relevant, but not all that germane to an attempt to add balance to the present article today.
Is there some policy that prevents us from using a broader range of links to address the "disparity in the negative/affirmative coverage" Hide&Reason has raised, or is it simply the preference of individual editors that we not do so? BYT 19:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem, Jay. If you decide you want to discuss any of this, let me know. BYT 19:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Problem is, you appear to define "good faith" as "willing to accept as factual the edit summaries of any revert of your work -- without question or challenge."
Let me be clearer about what I mean. If an editor on this page (let's say, for example, you) dismisses something another editor (me, say) has done as "POV" or "OR", after I've been working for weeks to find neutral sources and carefully identify the viewpoints expressed specifically AS viewpoints, then yes, I'm going to ask you exactly how you reached your conclusion. This is the nature of collaborative editing.
If you then decide that the questions I pose are not worth answering, as in the present exchange, or if you try to order me off the premises, [21] [22], I'm going to continue to pose the questions, and perhaps get someone else involved in the conversation, until the relevant questions are addressed. If you consider posing and reposing such unanswered questions about work I've done to be "bad faith," we should consider perhaps that "good faith" goes both ways, Jay -- zapping edits and then refusing to explain your reasoning for doing so isn't a great way to build trust either. If you actually explain what you're doing and why, in detail, we should be all right. BYT 20:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The word wrongly implies that Zionism ceased to function with the establishment of the State of Israel. The intro should note its continued role, but also distinguish between its status inside and outside Israel. Paul111 10:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Although the exact text can be debated, the intro should give what is missing in this article, a theoretical and comparative perspective (nationalism theory especially). It should include these points:
The need for a neutral perspective (insofar as that is possible) overrides the preference of users who want to see this article present Zionism from the Zionist prespective. Paul111 09:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The neutral-point-of-view policy, which indeed has a debatable premise that such a thing is possible, is that articles should be written from a neutral point of view. It does not mean that every edit is disqualified, because it is somebody's point of view, although it is often misused to mean "I don't agree with that so I am going to delete it". Much of the 'cited information' in the present version consists of political argument by Zionists, which does show what they think, but not necessarily any more than that. Hopefully the peer review will encourage others to edit this article, and improve its theoretical and historical perspective. Paul111 17:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, and feel it is appropriate to request a peer review to address these issues. While we're at it, we can ask for discussion of how we should convey the depth of feeling of historical and contemporary Jewish opposition to Zionism. I'm not at all sure why the peer review request was removed from the top of the article page. Can somebody fill me in?
BYT
14:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Right. I saw that it had been moved to Talk, by looking at the history. That's why I wrote what I did. What I am wondering is whether it is supposed to be there by policy, or whether it is OK to put on the article page. Please advise. 20:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to let editors here know ahead of time that I'm going to be making what I feel to be an important edit here on the Zionism page, an edit that takes into account all of the specific requests for improvement that I've received over the past week or two.
If you disagree with that edit, I'd really appreciate if you discussed, with me and other editors, the grounds for your disagreement on the talk page before reverting my work. That way we can get some back and forth going on the talk page about these important issues and help build a more balanced article. I hope we can begin to bring about more examples of collaborative editing among people with differing viewpoints here. BYT 10:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the good note. BYT 12:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or does anyone else have problems with this introduction? Specifically the references that it uses to state as a fact particularly contentious POV's. Not suprisingly, these references are from blatently partisan and non-scholarly sources: (The World Zionist Organization? The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs?). In the very least these should be worded as "according to..." not stated as if they were neutral, undisputed facts. The intro which stands out as more political statement than a nuetral encylopedia article entry:
"Zionism is a national liberation movement,[1] as well as a nationalist[2] and political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago[3] and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century CE."
Before I make changes I just wanted to see what others thought, and express that I am a bit surprised to run into this kind of wording here. Can someone fix address this or fix it themselves? Giovanni33 06:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Attributing views and NPOV are very good. But Kevin MacDonald, Gandhi or Tim Wise do not belong here. You still don't get that this article is Zionism, while anti-Zionism is another article. There is a long section here Zionism#Anti-Zionism and post-Zionism and there is another, Zionism#Opposition or ambivalence - much longer than Zionism#Support (in Zionism#Jewish attitudes to Zionism before the founding of Israel). How does that reflect one particular POV? Your idea - to have either two competing articles on the same subject or to merge these two into one - needs a consensus. ← Humus sapiens ну? 10:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Re: You still don't get that this article is Zionism, while anti-Zionism is another article. -- we get that, we just don't understand why it means that no links offering a perspective critical of Zionism can be featured here. Is there a policy backing up this division you're trying to establish here? BYT 14:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. There seem to be a small number of editors who are extremely dedicated to ensuring that this article retains a pro-Zionist perspective. I have previously attempted to make the intro more even-handed, but I, like most people, don't have the time to engage in the endless arguments that result.
The claim that this article should be pro-Zionist, and that other points of view should be relegated to the anti-zionism article, is like saying that the entry on Al Qaeda should describe it as an "Islamic liberation movement", and references to terrorism should be relegated to a separate page. Moopiefoof 15:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Further to my previous comments, Humus sapiens might like to consider that the current state of the article creates the impression that Wikipedia has been hijacked by Zionists, which obviously reflects badly on both Wikipedia and Zionists. If he really wishes to advance his Zionist agenda, he might be better off going along with the policy of NPOV. Moopiefoof 18:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Concerning the "fringe sources" argument - we can always replace them with Noam Chomsky and Hannah Arendt (in "Eichmann in Jerusalem"). But even the current ones exemplify a certain type of (liberal) criticism of Zionism, and they don't need to be notable per se. And I don't see how Dan Michman, Arthur Hertzberg and all the other sources mentioned are more notable than Wise and McDonald. -- Anonymous44 11:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
That sounds dubious (and the references there don't say it either). If we believe the more historically plausible parts of the Bible, then it seems that the Jewish people invaded "the land of Israel" (or rather, the land of the Canaanite, as it was known then), ousting the previous inhabitants - ergo, the Jewish people had already originated somewhere else. If, on the other hand, we are to believe every word of the Bible, including the story about Joseph and his ancestors, then of course it's possible to say that a "nation" (consisting of Abraham's family and the following couple of generations) originated in Palestine, but it is even more consistent to claim that it originated in Ur, where Abraham is supposed to have come from.-- 194.145.161.227 10:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that both of you have missed my point. I do not even care to contradict the Bible (of course parts of it are legend according to secular scholars; those who deny that and believe that every word of it is literally true are known to the rest of humanity as religious fundamentalists). But what I proved was that the current wording contradicts even the Bible, even as it remains our main source for Jeiwsh history. The Bible itself says clearly that Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldeans", and describes in detail how the Jews coming from Egypt conquered Palestine (Canaan) and ousted the original inhabitants (with God's support, I concede that). I can quote the relevant part, in Tiberian Hebrew if necessary. It's strange that my statements should come as a surprise (or even trolling) to Humus Sapiens. They ought to be self-evident for anybody who has read the relevant parts of the Tanakh/Old Testament.-- Anonymous44 11:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Of course, if someone provides a neutral, scholarly historical source that says that the Jewish nation originated in Palestine, then the statement should be included, and then I'd take the trouble to find one that says the opposite and include it too, and then we'd have NPOV. For the time being, the statement that the Jewish nation originated in Israel is both dubious and unsourced and should be deleted. Not to mention the fact that many historians would argue that even the word "nation" is anachronistic for pre-XVII/XVIII/XIX-th century history.-- Anonymous44 11:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Even if sufficient references can be given to state this as fact, the intro should make some reference to the people who inhabited the region from the 3rd to the 20th century. Also, historical Palestine is referred to by several names; should the article exclusively refer to it as "the land of Israel"? Moopiefoof 21:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I've protected the page due to the ongoing content dispute. Please work this out via talk, rather than edit warring. FeloniousMonk 14:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I have been pondering an RfC or some other administrative appeal to address the frankly embarrassing level of bias on this page for some time. Felonious, please note that talk doesn't seem to be producing any kind of consensus on core issues. Any thoughts on how we should proceed on dispute resolution? BYT 14:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
"Can we take this as a de-facto consensus?": not refuting the same arguments more than once doesn't equal tacit consent. You have been talked to here, though not by me. -- tickle me 23:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
What's "fragrant antisemitism"? Tom e r talk 21:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Not at issue is:
We're talking about this political philosophy, and we're talking about rectifying an imbalance in the links that appear in this article.
There is a distressing lack of links exemplifying contemporary and historic opposition to the political philosophy of Zionism in this article. Rather than getting sidetracked about the possible shortcomings of any particular link under discussion, I want to ask one more time, before I file an RFC about this, what editors think we can do to rectify this (rather embarrassing) imbalance in the links. { BYT 12:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
How people are actually using the word:
Does Lieberman subscribe, as a matter of personal political philosophy, to the ADL's definition of Zionism? [ | Counterpunch article, "Lieberman's conflict of interest"]
What, exactly, is the relevance to the matter at hand of whether zionism is or isn't a political philosophy or ideology? Moopiefoof 22:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
As explained many times above, the links already exist in the Anti-Zionism article; let's avoid the cloning process please. Jayjg (talk) 17:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I've got an even better idea. Let's take some of the links representing this viewpoint out of Anti-Zionism and put them here so as to give some balance to the article. Or, alternatively, let's do an RFC and get the input of a wider audience. BYT 18:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
In an attempt to break this logjam and avoid duplication, and following the example of The Holocaust and Holocaust (resources), I've created a sub-article for both the Zionism and Anti-Zionism articles which contains all the pro and anti-links, and various other resources. You can find it at Zionism and anti-Zionism (resources). Jayjg (talk) 18:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Insurance companies exhaust policyholders into walking away from legitimate claims. The career editors of this article exhaust attempts to restore NPOV to the links section in much the same way. BYT 12:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
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it certainly meets the definition, per the wiki article on same and should be included in links This is a perfect example of an extreme biased article that shows only the fabricated good side of zionism. The deliberate suffering in form of blatant murderes inflicted on the local muslim population by the zionists are totally concealed.
Hello to the editor. I am new to wiki. So that is why may be I am not sure how I can contribute correctly. I added a fact about a discourse between the emperor of Iran and Rothschild and his suggestion for establishment of a Jewish state. I cited the reference and you can find tons of evidence for this discussion everywhere in the internet and from the historians. But unfortunately it was deleted from the page. I was wondering why? May be I should have put it in another format? Persia was an important player at that time. And as a mater of fact it had the biggest population of Jewish people living there in the Middle East before Israel was established. Your article only mentions thing related to Europe but there is a bigger world than Europe! And more players.
To the editor:
Adding a picture, will enhance and give a better view of the vital Anti-Zionism section in this article. Here are URL's:
http://www.nulitedesign.com/z_105/capt1.jpg http://www.nulitedesign.com/z_105/jewsburnisraeliflag.jpg http://www.nulitedesign.com/z_105/jaz_full.jpg
Please include one of the above. Thank You.
The article says that In 1947 Britain announced its intention to withdraw from Palestine, and on 29 November the United Nations General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state (with Jerusalem becoming an international enclave). Civil conflict between the Arabs and Jews in Palestine erupted immediately. There was no civil war it was invasion of European Jews taking over Palestinian homeland. The Spanish Civil War and American Civil War was classical civil war when a nation fight with itself. Nearly all Arab and Muslim states were still under colonial rule and could vote in United Nations. Siddiqui 07:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
the disputer is right to some extent.This was not a civil war. Rather it was an invasion of Jewish gangs, which you mentioned their names already, to Palestine. Why doesn't the essay mention anything about the massacares of Sebra and Shatila, when Ariel Sharon himself led the Israeli gangs to attack the innocent, unarmed Palestanin men, women and children in these palces. Also the essay call it the Isreali-Arab war. Where were the Arabs. Egypt was under the British Colony and so were many other Arab countries. Egypt sent some sample forces to Palestine in 1948 armed by second-hand, non-working arms that killed the Egyptian soliders not the Israeli.
Again the essay does not mention that Israel was the first side to start the 1967 war (the six-day war)and attaecked Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon and later Syria.
Also the essay call the PLO as a terrorist movement. How can we call people who are fighting to retain their stolen houses and land as terrorists. Why do not we call them self-defenders or fighters for independence like the French resistance in WWII! What is the difference? Germany occupied France and the Frenh formed forces to fight them! And the Jews occupied Palestine and the Palestanians formed forces to fight them. Be honest in telling the truth.
If this is the case, so why the international society does not condemn Israeli attacks on civilian Palestinians? Why they insist only on strongly condemning Palestinian attacks on Isreal? Isn't that strange? we all refuse killing civillians and innocent people whether palestinians or Israelians. But Palestaninans have the right to defend their freedom inside Israel, if they are so weak to attack the israeli army on the borders. Most of Palestinian attacks are targetted to Israeli soliders, but the problem is that Israeli army is mingeled with civilians inside the cities.It is like what the Americans were doing in Afghanstan. To target the Taliban agents, they had to kill alot of innocent Muslims living inside their cities.
The Zionist history says that Zionist gangs were formed from the beginning of Jewish immegration to Palestine. At the beginning, the Jewish settlement was protected by the British Occupation in Palestine. Then after the withdrawal of British troops, zionist gangs took the burden of protecting the new Jewish communities and of expanding and obtaining new lands. Consequently, The Arabs of Palestine formed some forces to prevent them and protect Arab communities and lands from bieng stolen by these gangs. And you can go back to the history of the first Palestinian organization to see how far was it from the beginning of the Zionist gangs like Stern and Hagana.
I didn't say that Israel started the 1948 war. I said Israel started the 1967 war.
Moreover, don't you know that the 1948 war was a retaliation to the Dier Yassin Massacre in 1947 where the three great organizations warriors of Zionism attacked the small, peacefull village of Dier Yassin. Also all people all over the world know the circumstances of this massacre and who to be blamed, Israelis or Palestanians? Motga5 13:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
"There was no civil war"
The article doesn't say "civil war" it says "civil conflict". Chia pet 17:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Despite your sarcastic way of editing, I will answer you. How do you say that 1948 war was a retaliation to the UN decision and has nothing to do with Dier Yassin Massacre. Do you know that Dier Yassin Massacre took place on 11 April 1948, one month before the 1948 war. While the UN decision of partition was on 1947. So how did you reach this conclusion that the war had nothing to do with Dier Yassin?
You say that Dier Yassin was a hostile village hosting Iraqi soliders who attack israeli settlements. Read this and tell me what you know: "Goldshmidt, raised in that suburb, had been sworn by his father to avenge armed attacks emanating from Deir Yassin against Givat Shaul during Arab-Jewish-British strife of the 1920s and 1930s. But during the 1948 conflict, Deir Yassin was studiously honoring a Haganah-sponsored agreement to refrain from hostilities with neighboring Jewish areas in exchange for protection from Jewish attack. One Lehi member, David Siton, protested that hitting a nonhostile village might endanger western Jerusalem. A Lehi reconnaissance appears to have confirmed the village's nonhostility. And although Irgun district commander Mordechai Raanan insisted Deir Yassin was part of an Arab logistical route to Kastel, he had to concede after another reconnaissance that the town appeared docile.(10)". for more and true account of the massacre read: [1]. Yes, maybe the jewish people have lived peacefully in Palestine before the issue of Israel, like they did in other Arab countries. But don't you ask yourself, Why is all this happenening now, i mean since the establishment of Israel and the Jews are all the time with conflict with neighbouring Arabs, Mulsims and Christians? Yes, they were peaceful, but then after the immergence of the idea of Israeli state in Palestine, Jews started their attacks, their conspirecies, their operations and their policies to banish the Arabs and built their settlements in their homes and Lands in Palestine. So it is so normal that the Arabs in Palstine, who are under aggressive attacks to steal their land and homes, rise to defend themselves and thier lands like any free man will do. Imagine you are sitting in your home peacefully with your family, and suddenly some intruder break in and tell you "hey get out of here, that's the house of my grand grandfather! you have two choices; sell it for me or I will burn this house on you!?" What will you do then? Motga5 14:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all, fighting had already borken about before Deir Yassin, second of all you are commiting a logical fallacy, you are suggesting that because event x came after event Y, Event Y automatically cause event X.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification. But if things went as you say and the war began before Dier Yassin, how do you expect me to belive that the Zionest forces will leave the Arab forces and focus its attention on a small beaceful village like Dier Yassin, where they spent a whole night attacking this village? Isn't it a little strange for any forces to leave the real fighting and go to attack a small village in that time?
Secondly, I didn't say that Dier Yassin was the ONLY cause for 1948 war. That's will be silly of course. I said it was a retaliation to it. That's mean that it was the last leave on the bush. And it was the trigger that moved the intention for fighting the Zionest Gangs in Palestine. And I have another question for you. Why do you insist that 1948 war was not a result for Dier Yassin Massacre? Is that because Israel feels guilty for this Massacre? Is that because Israel couldn't deny this masscre as it did for all other aggressive attacks the Jewish forces have done on Palestinians? Answer me please. Motga5 07:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think you didn't read the dispute carefully. firstly I didn't started the debate. I took part in it after two or three comments by other people, Arabs and Israelis favors. Secondly, my opinions are based on historical facts, not nontruths like you say. Sabra and Shatiela was committed by Christian militants, but who bushed them to do so, who gave them the way to do so. Can you deny that Ariel Sharon was surrounding the camp with his army and opened the way to the Christian militants to committ this massacre. Can you deny that he, Ariel Sharon, was looking at the massacre with satan eyes from atop a high building that overlooks the camps and he was happy to see the Lebanese people slaughtered by his Christian militants followers.
Thirdly, yes Egypt blokced the islaes in the Red Sea, but who on earth believe that this was the cause of the war? Who on earth believe that this formidable military plan was a reaction to Naser's decision of blocking the isles. Sir, this was an Israeli plan, put many years ago to overcome the only strong threat to Israel in the region these days.
I think you only know, or pretend to know the surface and didn't read history carefully. Everyone in the world now knows what was hidden under the false news and misleading news. Read history again sir. 196.204.25.218 14:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The wonderful UN, as one of its first notable deeds, started an aggressive war that is still ongoing. No wonder they can't seem to help anywhere.
Given that the 'Jew' Judaism template has a link to this article, surely the template belongs in the article? Zionism is undeniably connected to Judaism; yes, even secular Zionism. Nomist 02:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that Israel had the capability to initiate an attack on 4 different countries... (look up the definition in Wikipedia and dispute that stance) but if it had then why did the Arab nations give up so easily during the six day war? Do you think that a war involving FIVE countries would last a mere 6 days? ESPECIALLY if all but one of the nations were on the same side... no.
Self defenders? That's cool... defend your land and faith. Thats cool. Initiating attacks on other countries because of your _________ (fill in the blank) [unresolved conflict regarding your faith] or [unresolved conflicts regarding your role in the world] even better... but your independence?! Like the French? I'm laughing at this point because how the hell are Islamic fundamentalists fighting for their "freedom" or their "independence"? Do you honestly think that they are attacking America or Israel for their own independence as a people? Are those two countries going to grant them that?! That's absolutely grand, by all means. The "Palenstines" are a diverse people of many faiths. they are not only Muslims as many would like to believe. You tell the truth. Dear Allah/God/Whatever.
The difference is faith. Faith in your afterlife or your people's future. France had faith in their nationality. Muslims have faith in what they hope will happen to them after this life. Big difference. Afterlife faith is selfish comparably to the future of this world without you.
there is no such thing as anti-zionism it is a made up word, and should have no place in wikipedia which is an encyclopedia all elements that cite factual sources on the concept of zionism - whether they are supportive or not supportive should be under the category of zionism
I really do not understand your point or how it even makes sense. Anti-Zionism is a term that is recognized by mainstream scholars and is used to denote a few specific types of opposition to Zionism.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 11:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
this is NOT evidence anti semitism. The fist one is evidence of blood libel, which has been applied to jews, chrisitians ,etc alike see blood libel. The second one is evidence of a group acting treasonous against Iraq, It has NOTHING to do with being Jewish, as to the Israeli-Arab war, this is to do with zionism, and the colonisation of palestine by european jews Talk 11:04 17 May.
Once again I do not see the relavance, or really how anything you just wrote makes sense.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Zalani 05:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)Unfortunately, since the exposure of the State of Israel's apartheid policies in Western media, and especially with the establishment of the Apartheid Wall ( [2]) that has been pronounced illegal by the International Court of Justice ( [3]), world view has come to regard the Zionist policies of Israel as expansionist and racist. Zalani 05:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Direct (i.e. legally sanctioned) discrimination against Israeli Arabs exists. This is no secret. I merely provide (cited) examples to explain why "some consider" such practices racist. Trachys 05:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
ummm yes there is
Saladin, you can't use a website like jewsagainstzionism.com as a source. Please review WP:V and WP:RS. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Saladin1970, earlier you have replaced external links in the article, now you have removed my comment. Stop this vandalism now. ← Humus sapiens ну? 10:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there any source for the latter part of the following statement: In 1937, Ben-Gurion and almost all of his party leadership supported a British proposal to create a small Jewish state from which the Arabs had been removed by force. This statement appears in Zionism#Zionism_and_the_Arab_Muslims_and_Arab_Christians. The Peel Commission Report (1937) makes no mention, and even explicitly mentions the inclusion of Galilean Arabs in the prospective Jewish state. Tewfik Talk 23:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have added a few facts about NK, and about the non discriminatory nature of Israel. Incorrect 03:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Removed by force - well that seems to be what happened. I bet there must have been something done to make it happen - maybe magic.
I don't see any evidence that it happened. Israel officially invited Arabs to stay in their declaration of independence. And many Arabs did. Approxoimately 20% of the entire Israeli population are Arab-Israeli citizens. Did ANY Arabs flee the war zone created by invading Arab armies and at the urging of Arab leaders? Absolutely. But, this does not prove they were forced out. And when Israel invited 100,000 refugees to come to Israel as a good faith gesture to start peace talks, they were rejected by Arab leaders who refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and felt even allowing refugees into Israel with Israeli permission would be acknowledgement.
Even if Israel invites all of the misplaced people back to get what they originaly had, Israel is still guilty of taking a land that is not her's, and does not make the whole problem of erasing a nation and a culture that existed there for more than 1000 years OK, if someone steals your stuff and then gives you a bit of it back he will still be guilty of stealing wouldn't he, that does not make israel a saint.
Since Zionism is such a varied and significant family of ideologies, I propose a Zionism template along the lines of templates such as Socialism and Liberalism, which feature in the Politics series of Political ideologies. What do people think? Nomist 16:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Good idea. Amibidhrohi 17:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I think I suggested this on May 14th 2006 under the Judaism template discussion (see above). Ah well. Oboler 01:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Zalani 05:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)I support this because there were massacres that followed, the most notrious of which is Deir Yassin. Please either refer to the following web site: http://www.deiryassin.org/. More important as a neutral resource is the published book of Walid Khalidi, Before Their Diaspora, ( [4]) which has a rich reportoir of photographs and documents (of historical and anthropological value) that attest to the existance of an Arab Palestinian people and culture (Muslim, Christian and Jewish) before the establishment of the state of Israel. Zalani 05:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
you are very ignorant, dark-skinned?! yasser arafat is dark-skineed?! his wife, suha is dark-skineed?! just shut it,troll.
Zionism is a farce, created by non-religious Jews to leave Europe for Uganda, however, when that failed they went to Palestine instead. Then claiming "religious lineage" to the land they were banished and exiled from by God according to Rabbinic teachings.
anyone with a strong feeling one way or the other should not be contributing to this article due to the intensity of the subject matter. Most of this discussion is in no way relevant to an encyclopedia entry.
Would it be safe to say Zionism is a theocratic theory since it promotes state rule for people of a certain religion?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.92.235.125 ( talk • contribs)
Umm, no, because it doesn't support "State rule for a people of a particular religion", also Zionism is not religious in nature.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This reading from the Jewish Encyclopedia had been added to the article:
"The extent to which the Zionist idea has spread among the Jewish people may be seen not only in the number of Jews affiliated with the Zionist organization and congress, but also in the fact that there is hardly a nook or corner of the Jewish world in which Zionistic societies are not to be found. Even where no such organizations exist expressions of approval and adhesion have come from bodies of Jews who have lived practically cut off from all connection with the course of Jewish life. Notable were communications, together with subscriptions for the fund, from a band of descendants of Portuguese Jews in Manecoré in Amazonas, Brazil (March 12, 1901), from Jews settled in Chile, and from the Jadid al-Islam in Khorasan (1901); while societies exist in Tshita (Siberia, on the Manchurian border), Tashkent, Bokhara, Rangoon (Burma), Nagasaki, Tokyo, Hongkong, Singapore, and among the American soldiers in the Philippines. The Shanghai Zionist Association was founded in 1903; the Dr. Herzl East Africa Zionist Association in Nairobi (East-African Protectorate) in 1904. In Australia there are four Zionist federations: New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, and West Australia. Queensland has its own federation with its center in Brisbane, and New Zealand has several societies. Even among the Russian Jews settled by the Jewish Colonization Association in Argentina, there is a federation comprising four societies. A Zionist congress was held there May 16, 1904, comprising delegates of 1,150 shekel-paying members. In every country of Europe, in the United States, along the North-African coast, and in Palestine similar societies are to be found. At the St. Louis Exposition, 1904, the Zionist flag (blue and white stripes, with a "Magen Dawid" in the center) floated from one of the buildings together with those of other nationalities."
I had trimmed it to just "there is hardly a nook or corner of the Jewish world in which Zionistic societies are not to be found," which I think summarizes effectively the entire passage. Why do the two other editors feel it is important to include a gazeteer in the article? I think it adds nothing beyond length and tangentially interesting facts such as that there were Jewish communities in various remote areas near the beginning of the last century.
Where should {{ Political ideologies}} go? Is there a way to put templates on the left side of an article?-- The ikiroid ( talk· desk· Advise me) 22:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but article reads POV to me. I support the idea of having a template, because this is a family of ideologies. Also, this article is not the place to go into the ancient history of Judaism in the Levant, except to describe as accurately and neutrally as possible what Zionists believe. I would change introductory sentence to saying that Zionists believe there should be a Jewish homeland in "the Levant" rather than either "the Land of Israel" or "Palestine". "The Levant" is neutral. But is this in fact accurate, or have there been varieties of Zionism that did not think that a Jewish land had to be specifically in Palestine? Following a shortened introduction, the history of Zionism should be started from when it actually started as a movement - 19th century? Not go into ancient history which is not relevant to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itsmejudith ( talk • contribs)
Could someone explain why "hence" is in this sentence (which does not seem to follow logically to me "It is however, important to note that the Zionist movement predates the Holocaust by some ninety years, hence the aftermath of the Holocaust did not lead to the creation of the State of Israel." The desire predates, but how does this imply that the fulfilment was not as a result of...
I Just wanted to inform that the first item - ""Confessions of an Arab Zionist" seems to be a prank, since the author's name "Kalb Ibn Kalb" means "a dog son of a dog" in Arabic... a rather unusual name for a person. I would be really glad if someone fix this please.
"Resolution 3379 states that 'Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.'" Ought we not to mention this? Smitty Mcgee 18:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The [ Jerusalem Program] is the Zionist definition of Zionism. Its absense from this article is a major oversight, akin to, but more serious than, an article about the U.S. Declaration of Independence without mentioning John Locke. The Jerusalem Program is important, among other reasons, because it is emphatically the right of Zionists to say what Zionism is; because it lays out the aims and foundations of Zionism; and because it shows the pluralism of Zionism: Zionism is not just political; it has cultural, spiritual, and moral dimensions also. Anomalocaris 16:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I most certainly do not want to get dragged into some sort of flame war and so I will (cowardly) leave to someone else the task of failing this for good article status. However, I think that it will and should fail because
Pascal.Tesson 04:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The Good article nomination for Zionism/Archive 8 has failed, for the following reason:
I came to the Zionism article in the hope of finding some mention of spirtual Zionism. By spiritual Zionism, I mean an interpretation of Zion as a spirtual realm, not a physical place in Israel/Palestine or anywhere else. I was taught (ages ago in a religion class at university) that there was also this kind of Zionism, I think. Does this kind of Zionism exist and if so is there an article about it? I have had a look around and see that
This is not what I mean. I am looking for the Jewish faction (if such exist) who believe in the creation of a spiritual realm of Zion. Or are these people Christians :-)! It seems to me that the Christians are into a spiritual interpretation of Zion but you would think that there are also some Jews that while rejecting Jesus, also go for a spiritual interpretation of Zion. Please feel free to delete this when you post directions to a Spiritual Zionism. Or is it only a Christian (I was brought up as one) that be so absurd as to suggest that Zion and Zionism might be interpretted spiritually?
Is there a Zionism which sees "Zion" as a spiritual state? -- Timtak 07:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC) Come to think of it, perhaps this "talk" should be in the Anti-Zionism page if anywhere, since Zionism is almost universally taken to be concrete and this Spiritual interpretation is "Anti" the standard interpertation. -- Timtak 02:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Meccaism: The princibale of spreading Arab culture and Islam throughout the world. Meccaist followers of Meccaism
... I believe the (recently removed) link spotlighting Orthodox dissent and opposition to Zionism belongs here.
If it should only be in one article, I believe it should be featured in this one, as this article has the most visibility, and the dissent is eminently relevant to the subject. Thoughts? BYT 18:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
After so many explicit and direct appeals to you for help, Jay, this response is so disingenuous as to be disruptive. Once again, I would like to ask you (although perhaps I shouldn't expect an answer): Is there a [ policy] that states this link may not be placed here, and must instead be placed at Anti-Zionism? BYT 18:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Is that the argument? A collection of historical quotes from rabbis of generations past, holding forth on the phenomenon of Zionism, a political movement, is not relevant to this article? Pretty shady reasoning here, friends. Break it down for me, please. BYT 15:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
You're changing the subject. What I asked was, is any site that offers this perspective on Zionism as a political philosophy, by definition, a "fringe" site? That seems to be what you're trying to enforce here.
Also, and while we're on the subject, I'd appreciate it if you stopped repeating this business about Anti-Zionism covering the subject of anti-Zionism. I know that.
I also know that there is no WP policy stating that discussion of opposing views to a political philiosophy must be covered in an article called Anti-Whatever. And, as we've seen, there is the practical example of Socialism, which features end-of-article links to sites hostile to socialism.
Once again: Are you trying to enforce some standard whereby any resource is considered to be connected to a "fringe" group if it opposes Zionism? BYT 12:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Brandon, please stop wikilawyering, and please don't make false claims in your edit summaries (e.g. "per talk page"). This article is about Zionism, the other article is about Anti-Zionism. The links appropriate to each go in their respective pages. I note that the latest link you've added isn't even about Zionism at all, but rather a link to an organization which is against "Israeli Occupation", and which happens, in passing, to state that Zionism is not the same thing as Judaism, a position held by most Jewish groups, even if they are Zionist. Your addition of irrelevant links is increasingly disruptive. Jayjg (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm saying don't put words in my mouth, and don't misquote me. The continual addition of dubious links is disruptive, as is claiming that you had cleared them "per talk page". There are now four good reasons not to add the links you've added, including the fact that the latest was not on the topic. You have yet to refute any of them. Please feel free to come up with a new argument. Jayjg (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The guideline, WP:External links, says we should not add links to "Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research." That seems to sum up the links you want to add, and one of them was not about Zionism anyway. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
In that ...? BYT 17:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
After creating so many direct and explicitly worded appeals to you for help on a question to which there is presumably a clear answer, Jay, I begin to wonder when a disingenuous response, like the one above, crosses the line into irresponsible behavior on the part of an admin. Once again-- I would like to know if there is a [ policy] that instructs us to move a link like this away from Zionism and into Anti-Zionism. If there is, can you please point me towards it? It's really not that difficult a question. BYT 18:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Jay, I'm asking you a question about WP guidelines, one you resolutely refuse to answer. For it to be a strawman argument, or indeed any kind of argument, I would have to make an assertion for debate. This, what we're doing right now, would be a different animal entirely, namely a discussion. I'm trying to get your help on improving this page, and trying to find out whether there are WP policies supporting the line you've drawn here.
Re: below. I'm absolutely blown away by the eerie coincidence that my latest proposed link falls short of your standards for inclusion here. Just for the record, are you going to be checking every other university link to be sure that it doesn't connect to an individual professor's homepage? And (to be clear) are you saying that this professor is not a credible source?
Thanks, too, for your examples. Are you now planning to go clean up Marxism and make sure they eliminate the final section of links there? Some of them are critical of Marxism. You're saying that's against the (continuously unspecified but nevertheless binding) rules, right? BYT 23:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence of the introduction is very wierd. It defines Zionism as to whitewash anti-semitism, but then gives the example of anti-zionist. This example inappropriately gives sympathy to zionism without really addressing the "whitewash anti-semitism" part.
Overall, I think that the entire article did not address the reasons why non-Jews would be anti-zionism, which is actually the interest of reading the article for non-Jews.- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.251.118 ( talk • contribs)
Reliable source, not a personal website, about only Zionism.
What's the reasoning, please? If it's because you feel this link "belongs" at Anti-Zionism and only there, please show me the policy that says that's the way we have to go here. BYT 17:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I placed a quote in the article that ...
It has been instantly reverted -- twice -- with the explanation that it represents a "fringe" viewpoint.
Any explanation here as to why we should not openly admit now that such material is unacceptable because any and every such citation is regarded by editors here as "fringe" by virtue of its opposition to Zionism? Is that the policy we're following, or am I missing something? BYT 13:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I have (quite patiently, I think) followed your every suggestion, Jay, and abandoned every single link to which you objected. If the goal is to improve the quality of the article, you've got to give me a little bit of credit for trying here. Each and every editing problem you've identified, I've dutifully addressed. I'm very sorry if the early edits I made on this site weren't up to your standards, but at least I don't push the same mistake over and over again. (Addendum -- those "crappy links" to which you objected were added in error. If there is no consensus to include them, they shouldn't be in, and I apologize for the mistake of not seeing them.)
My question stands. Exactly what was wrong with the quote I inserted? BYT 15:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Trolling is, by definition, geared toward provoking a reaction ... and not toward improving the article.
I want to address a major omission in this piece: the visceral nature of much historic and contemporary Jewish opposition to Zionism. That's why I am focusing, repeatedly, on the question of exactly what you and other editors here need to see from me in order for us to address this issue. So far, it's been like nailing Jell-o to a wall.
Is there any particular reason you don't want to tell me what was wrong with the quote I inserted this morning? BYT 16:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
You honestly think I enjoy this? Talk about disingenous. We have here an article on a political philosophy that, for some reason, is immune to the level of intellectual scrutiny accorded to, say, Marxism. If someone else would carry this bucket, I'd be more than happy to find another one to carry around. In the meantime ... talk pages are for discussing article content, right? And I made an edit this morning, right? And you didn't like it, right? Is it fair for me ask why? BYT 16:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
And here's where I need some help, Humus. Which fringe sect, specifically? Does it have a name, or any identifying characteristics other than that of holding politically unpopular views? As it stands, "fringe" seems to be a catch-all term for "anyone whoever has disagreed with, or now disagrees with, the central tenets of Zionism." It's like saying anyone in Texas who didn't vote Republican in 2004 is a "fringe sect." BYT 18:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I don't think it's good faith to systematically sanitize an article about a political philosophy so as to ensure that no meaningful representation of those who dissent from it can appear in the text. We don't do that with Marxism. We don't do that with Libertarianism (do check out some of the body blows to that system of thought that appear in that article). We don't do that with Liberation theology. I am at an utter loss as to why we should airbrush Zionism. BYT 21:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
What I'm studiously avoiding is the diversionary tactic of accepting an invitation to go work on other articles (seemingly, any other articles) in some Quixotic attempt to obtain later, quasi-papal dispensation from you to work on this one. Not the purpose of our project.
For the record, Islam today produces nothing close to a coherent, unifying political philosophy; it is a faith system, and we, its followers, are manifestly incoherent and ununified. The better comparison would not be with articles like Islam or Judaism or Hinduism, but rather with Islamism, an article which, lo and behold, reads for long passages very much as though it were a prosecutor's brief against the philosophy in question. That's okay, though, yes?
Communism (the article) is a strange bird because it's 80-90% backward-looking; the states and movements it describes are mostly defunct. Not a great analogue with contemporary Zionism. Again, I ask you to consider the intriguing comparisons to be made between this article and the (to my mind) more vigorous and balanced assessments appearing at Marxism, Liberation theology, and Libertarianism ... but sometimes one feels as though one is raising points that will simply never, ever be addressed directly, for Reasons People Choose Not to Specify. Speaking of which, there are several overdue questions to you, Jay, about what, specifically, you don't like about this edit. I'm not sure I would lecture too long or too eagerly about people studiously avoiding uncomfortable subjects on this page. BYT 02:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The halachic discussion is incomplete in that it does not mention the important distinction between individual and communal aliyah. All modern halachic authorities I know of (including Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggrot Moshe) agree that there is an individual requirement and there is a communal prohibition of aliyah. So the article's discussion is completely misrepresentative of the currently accepted halacha when it discusses whether it is among the 613 mitzvot. The debate within halacha is whether the communal prohibition mentioned in the Talmud was nullified or it is Aggadic as opposed to halachic, which are the positions of religious Zionists. 75.3.193.243 21:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
.. on this edit. If people oppose it, please share on what grounds the opposition rests. BYT 13:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Asking, rather, about this edit on Zionism.
Do people support it? If so, why?
Do people oppose it? If so why? BYT 20:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
What's our source for the new "Tenets" section? These seem to be specific assertions, yet the text also notes that they are bitterly disputed, so we should have references for them. - Will Beback 20:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I restored the tenets, and added the definition of Zionism in the opening sentence as a nationalist movement. Since they appear to be contested, and may be gone by the time you read this, they are:
These are disputed propositions, but it is not in dispute that Zionism makes these claims. With one exception the opening paragraph is not 'sourced' either, and it also says Zionism seeks a Jewish national homeland. This article downplays the origin of Zionism as a 19th century European nationalist movement, and that needs to be corrected. Paul111 19:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This is from the Zionist website zionismontheweb.org [9]:
The website also says, inter alia, that Zionism is the 'national revival movement', that it 'holds that the Jews are a people' and 'therefore have the right to self-determination', in their 'historical homeland'.
All of these are common assertions of Zionism, and the sourced definition as as national liberation movment implies it is a a nationalist movement (one is a subset of the other). Paul111 20:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
[Jay], You're not making edits without discussing them, I hope. BYT 21:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm very disappointed to see you make these kinds of accusations, Jay. It's not what I had come to expect of an admin of your caliber.
My edit summary was completely above board: It did in fact include a major style edit, and it also provided a citation for a paragraph that had no citation -- the very same paragraph I've been talking about at length, and trying to get your input on, for the last few days.
I now know, and need no further reminding, that you don't like people working on this article who disagree with you. There comes a point where that is not my problem. I'm now going to ask you to stop suggesting that I work elsewhere.
As for tendentious editing... it's an interesting charge for you to make. BYT 22:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I hardly see how, with the revert troops standing guard. What anti-Zionist element, specifically, are you suggesting has actually shown up in the text since I started work here? BYT 22:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Move along, BYT - your constant attempts to insert irrelevant POV here are tiresome, and your "no good faith edits" clock was just reset. Jayjg (talk) 18:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a slight double standard when describing the Middle East conflict.
In the article Zionism, the PLO is desribed as using terrorism as a means of political 'struggle'. Surely the PLO's form of political struggle is the same as those used by extremists in the former Zionist movement, as described in the Zionist political violence article?
As such, shouldn't either the 'Zionist political violence' be more obviously classified as terrorism, or the Palestinian 'terrorism' described in this article and on wikipdia be edited to 'political violence'.
That would remove any unintended, slight bias - as it is obvious that the two terms dont have equivalent neutrality.
-- Snellios 21:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The term is not accurate for early Zionism. It implies something like the FRETILIN, which is already in the national homeland and conducting military operations against the percieved imperial power. Although that comparison is accurate for the Mandate-period armed groups, it would apply that early Zionists were fighting a war against the Ottoman Empire or intended to fight one. Its use after 1948, for the State of Israel, is non-standard since states are not considered liberation movements. The post-1948 claims on territory are properly described as irredentism. Paul111 11:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
On second thoughts, the description as a 'national liberation movement' improves the intro paragraph. It has connotations of armed struggle, and will remind readers of the fact that some Zionists use force to secure their goals - that is a prominent feature of Zionism. The perspective of this article should not be the Zionist perspective, although it should include the Zionist perspective. More on that per specific issue. Paul111 12:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Is Zionism a movement toward the liberation of a nation? What nation is seeking liberation from what subjucation? Some people's view of history would agree, but I don't think this is a demonstrable claim. "Zionism is a national liberation movement": I do not believe this is a fact-based claim. Moreover, what sort of liberty is being asserted?
It doesn't matter if the term "national liberation movement" is sourced; it's still biased, and many would disagree with that label. I can give you dozens of sources accusing zionism of being "racist" or "racialist," but that doesn't really mean shit.
English is governed only by its speaker, so there is no authority to declare which uses of a word are "incorrect." (Just consult Humpty Dumpty from Alice :) POV..
uh.. what? Do you mean "attacks on jews?"
Guess.
"Whitewash" is POV. JayW 16:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Paul111, your "principles" section appears to be an original research summary of one specific article, though not really properly sourced. The article doesn't need one specific summary of this complex movement, nor does it need the specific one you have chosen. Jayjg (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Multiple sources were asked for. Since the essay was already used (by the same people who objected to the unsourced section), as a definitive source for Zionist principles, I used it too. The source is the World Zionist Organisation, which is at least for Zionist self-definition a reliable source. The tenets or principles or characteristics do not need a separate section, they can all go in the intro paragraph, so if I have time, I will insert them there one by one. The Jerusalem Programme is not a sufficient description of Zionism, as seen from nationalism theory. Paul111 11:57, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Zionism is not accurately or adequately described in the existing version, because it lacks any theoretical or comparative perspective, and because is written largely as a history of the Zionist movement, which is not the same thing as an article on Zionism. Paul111 14:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
A central claim of all nationalist movements, is that they speak for a nation. Although the intro paragraph says Zionism is a nation, it speaks of the Jewish people in this context. Implied is that the Jewish people is the same thing as the Jewish nation, but the intro is neither explicit or unambiguous. The intro should clarify the issue, so to begin with a source is needed for the claims that the Jewish people is a nation. That can be a Zionist source, since nationhood is a claim of Zionism. The correct theoretical position seems to be this: "the late 19th century Zionist movement claimed that the Jewish people were a nation, a description which was not until then in general use". Paul111 12:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
From the use of two separate terms. Paul111 13:46, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The whole point of Zionism was to assert that the group long known as Jews were in fact a nation - comparable to other nations, and entitled to the same status. The simplest thing is to say that in the intro, which will eliminate the confusion. Paul111 10:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The article does not need to either prove or disprove that Jews are a nation. It has to say that that is a central claim of Zionism, and one which distinguishes it both from previous Jewish movements, and from the competing Jewish movements and opinions which rejected that idea of a separate nation-state for Jews. I added that to the intro. Paul111 10:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
No term which is millennia old can be accurately translated by the English word nation, or its equivalent in other European languages, since they date back to the Middle Ages, see Nation. It is a common claim of nationalist movements that their own nation is very old, Iranian nationalism appropriated empires dating back 5000 years as examples of the 'Iranian nation'. The article should not take sides on such issues, but instead note that the nationhood claim is central to Zionism. Herzl: "Wir sind ein Volk, ein Volk". Paul111 10:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that Zionism advocates migration to Israel is so central, and so distinctive, that it deserves mention in the introduction. The formation of the State of Israel was dependent on that migration, even with natural growth the 1850 Jewish population in Ottoman Palestine would never have achieved a sovereign state. Further on in the article, the demographics should be mentioned. Around 1890, 98% to 99% of Jews lived outside Ottoman Palestine. The article should also indicate where Jews lived: in eastern Europe. That is also relevant for the historical background of early Zionism, as an eastern European (and largely German-speaking) movement. Paul111 14:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Moving this to talk: examples of such discrimination include citizenship rights, which are designed to privilege Jews, and the recognition provided for quasi-governmental Jewish organizations such as the Jewish Agency for Israel and the World Zionist Organisation, from which Arabs are excluded. - 1) Every country has certain preferences for immigration (note how the "citizenship rights" above is cleverly pipelinked to Law of Return, i.e. this is not about citizens but about immigration) and just as any other country, the State of Israel decides these matters according to its laws. 2) non-governmental (and not "quasi-governmental") organizations such as the Jewish Agency for Israel or World Zionist Organisation are as relevant to Arabs as the Arab League to Jews. ← Humus sapiens ну? 09:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I asked for sources for the assertion that Zionism began "largely" as a response to anti-semitism. Anti-semitism existed long before the emergence of Zionism, and it can not, in itself, explain the origin of modern Zionism. Here the lack of comparative perspective is evident, since there were other Jewish responses to anti-semitism, roughly: emancipation, assimilation and religious withdrawal. The intro does not point out what made Zionism different, namely that it asserted that Jews were a nation, and consequently entitled to a separate state.
A citation is also needed for the claim that Zionism is a response to antisemitism "in many parts of the Muslim world". This is an anachronism, it projects the current concerns onto 19th century Zionists. The position of Jews in the "Muslim world" was not a major issue in Europe at that time. The term "Muslim world" itself is an anachronism in this context. So the source should not simply say that there was anti-semitism in the 'Muslim world', but that it was a major factor in the emergence of Zionism. I don't think there is a reliable source for that assertion, discounting pseudo-history of the "Hitler-was-a-Muslim" type. Paul111 10:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The intro text said that Zionism was "largely" a response to anti-semitism, and I asked for a source for that. The two articles you quote don't say that, and both of them emphasise that Zionism sought a Jewish state. I have now added an explicit point that it was not an 'anti-antisemitism movement'. Paul111 10:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The phrasing implies that Zionism consists of a response to anti-semitism. It also implies that there is a unique causal relationship: IF there is antisemitism, THEN Jews will EITHER not respond, OR become Zionists. Noted already: anti-semitism predates Zionism, and can not be the explanatory factor for its emergence, when it did emerge. It also does not explain why this response became the dominant response, i.e, it ignores the historical context. Paul111 10:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I asked for a citation for 'national sovereignty' as an aspiration of the Jewish Revolt and of Jews in the succeeding centuries. This is another anachronism, the concept 'national sovereignty' is at most early-modern. Paul111 11:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Now changed to "political and religious independence from Rome". The rest of the section has more anachronisms, and vague terms like 'humanbased', which need to be clarified. Paul111 10:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It is an anachronism for the time of the Jewish Revolt. I think there are some sources for Jewish proto-nationalism at that time, but then the term proto-national should be used. Paul111 10:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I've changed the description of Zionism as a "national liberation movement" from being stated as a fact to being attributed to Zionists, for two reasons. Firstly, all the citations are partisan opinions rather than factual sources. Secondly, it is fundamentally a matter of opinion and not of fact. Moopiefoof 00:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Who was the 'national liberation movement' fighting against, at first? The Ottoman Empire? That is the historical issue. As for the implications, the term probably has a net negative image, since many people will think: "ah, national liberation movement, IRA, ETA, terrorism". Paul111 10:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The standard usage of 'national liberation movement' implies that there is an opponent, usually the colonial power. For movements which sought to improve the position of Jews in non-Jewish societies, emancipation is a better word. Paul111 09:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
That migration is typical of diaspora nationalism in the strict sense. However it is still not what most people understand under national liberation movement. I said before that the term is applicable to the Irgun but it is stretching the usage to include the early Zionists, holding meetings in Switserland, as a 'national liberation movement'. Paul111 17:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The Holocaust accelerated migration to Israel, and established the Zionist option as the only realistic option in the eyes of many European Jews. Without the accelerated immigration, it is unlikely that the British Mandate would have accepted a Jewish state as early as 1948. Paul111 10:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the eliminantion of all Jews would have meant the end of Zionism, but that did not happen. The British opposed Jewish immigration but finally gave in on that issue, partly because of the volume of immigration, which was a direct result of the Holocaust and the post-war displacements. Paul111 10:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Zionism is not an ideology in the most-used sense of the word, i.e.,
or "an organized collection of ideas." It is rather a political movement based on the perceived needs of a specific group. The referenced article does not seek to prove anything different but uses rather the term "ideology" in the sense of a conceptual framework. -- Leifern 15:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Zion-ism is strictly speaking the ideology of the Zionist movement. The suffix -ism indicates that the original use was for the ideology, but since it is common in English to extend -ism to cover movements, Zionism can be applied to the movement. Zionism certainly is 'a systematic body of concepts', and would fit most other definitions of ideology too. Paul111 10:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
A rough, but perhaps instructive, chronology.
I offered evidence of this phenomenon, and proposed that it be included in this article, and heard [I am paraphrasing throughout]...
Okay. Thanks for the qualifier. What I'm saying here is that simply acknowledging the existence of this (historical and contemporary) phenomenon, as we do now, is not enough to result in an article that's in balance. It's severely out of balance now, because you could read it and learn little or nothing of the depth of feeling on this issue.
If I "find a reliable source that asserts that modern-day religious Jewish anti-Zionism is anything other than trivial," I'm doing so because I want to cite that source in the article. I don't know what form that citation is going to take, because I haven't done the research yet. Fair? BYT 22:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The perspective I'm trying to make sure we include will be concise, but I know for a fact it is going to take more than an edit on a single word. The main thing I'm after here right now is a dialogue, and some consistent (not consistently changed) feedback on this talk page that a) takes place before someone reverts text and b) acknowledges when I've duly addressed an issue someone has raised. That way the process of discussion won't resemble a moving target. Why don't I do the work and show it to you and we can all see what we think, okay? BYT 22:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Are zionism and anti-zionism phenomenally distinct topics in the sense that socialism and communism, or capitalism and corporatism, are? Are there two WP articles because they are actually separate or because a simple 'Criticism' subsection in the Zionism article became too long and warranted a separate article?
I don't understand why criticism of Zionism cannot be included on both articles. Jay's stance seems either very (editorially) pedantic or very deceptive. Hide&Reason 07:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
With all respect, Jay, I don't think you've answered the question. He asked why we couldn't aim for a better balance of coverage by transferring some of the links to Zionism.
You're talking about what has been done in the past ("these articles have been split in two"), which is interesting and relevant, but not all that germane to an attempt to add balance to the present article today.
Is there some policy that prevents us from using a broader range of links to address the "disparity in the negative/affirmative coverage" Hide&Reason has raised, or is it simply the preference of individual editors that we not do so? BYT 19:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem, Jay. If you decide you want to discuss any of this, let me know. BYT 19:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Problem is, you appear to define "good faith" as "willing to accept as factual the edit summaries of any revert of your work -- without question or challenge."
Let me be clearer about what I mean. If an editor on this page (let's say, for example, you) dismisses something another editor (me, say) has done as "POV" or "OR", after I've been working for weeks to find neutral sources and carefully identify the viewpoints expressed specifically AS viewpoints, then yes, I'm going to ask you exactly how you reached your conclusion. This is the nature of collaborative editing.
If you then decide that the questions I pose are not worth answering, as in the present exchange, or if you try to order me off the premises, [21] [22], I'm going to continue to pose the questions, and perhaps get someone else involved in the conversation, until the relevant questions are addressed. If you consider posing and reposing such unanswered questions about work I've done to be "bad faith," we should consider perhaps that "good faith" goes both ways, Jay -- zapping edits and then refusing to explain your reasoning for doing so isn't a great way to build trust either. If you actually explain what you're doing and why, in detail, we should be all right. BYT 20:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The word wrongly implies that Zionism ceased to function with the establishment of the State of Israel. The intro should note its continued role, but also distinguish between its status inside and outside Israel. Paul111 10:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Although the exact text can be debated, the intro should give what is missing in this article, a theoretical and comparative perspective (nationalism theory especially). It should include these points:
The need for a neutral perspective (insofar as that is possible) overrides the preference of users who want to see this article present Zionism from the Zionist prespective. Paul111 09:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The neutral-point-of-view policy, which indeed has a debatable premise that such a thing is possible, is that articles should be written from a neutral point of view. It does not mean that every edit is disqualified, because it is somebody's point of view, although it is often misused to mean "I don't agree with that so I am going to delete it". Much of the 'cited information' in the present version consists of political argument by Zionists, which does show what they think, but not necessarily any more than that. Hopefully the peer review will encourage others to edit this article, and improve its theoretical and historical perspective. Paul111 17:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, and feel it is appropriate to request a peer review to address these issues. While we're at it, we can ask for discussion of how we should convey the depth of feeling of historical and contemporary Jewish opposition to Zionism. I'm not at all sure why the peer review request was removed from the top of the article page. Can somebody fill me in?
BYT
14:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Right. I saw that it had been moved to Talk, by looking at the history. That's why I wrote what I did. What I am wondering is whether it is supposed to be there by policy, or whether it is OK to put on the article page. Please advise. 20:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to let editors here know ahead of time that I'm going to be making what I feel to be an important edit here on the Zionism page, an edit that takes into account all of the specific requests for improvement that I've received over the past week or two.
If you disagree with that edit, I'd really appreciate if you discussed, with me and other editors, the grounds for your disagreement on the talk page before reverting my work. That way we can get some back and forth going on the talk page about these important issues and help build a more balanced article. I hope we can begin to bring about more examples of collaborative editing among people with differing viewpoints here. BYT 10:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the good note. BYT 12:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or does anyone else have problems with this introduction? Specifically the references that it uses to state as a fact particularly contentious POV's. Not suprisingly, these references are from blatently partisan and non-scholarly sources: (The World Zionist Organization? The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs?). In the very least these should be worded as "according to..." not stated as if they were neutral, undisputed facts. The intro which stands out as more political statement than a nuetral encylopedia article entry:
"Zionism is a national liberation movement,[1] as well as a nationalist[2] and political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago[3] and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century CE."
Before I make changes I just wanted to see what others thought, and express that I am a bit surprised to run into this kind of wording here. Can someone fix address this or fix it themselves? Giovanni33 06:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Attributing views and NPOV are very good. But Kevin MacDonald, Gandhi or Tim Wise do not belong here. You still don't get that this article is Zionism, while anti-Zionism is another article. There is a long section here Zionism#Anti-Zionism and post-Zionism and there is another, Zionism#Opposition or ambivalence - much longer than Zionism#Support (in Zionism#Jewish attitudes to Zionism before the founding of Israel). How does that reflect one particular POV? Your idea - to have either two competing articles on the same subject or to merge these two into one - needs a consensus. ← Humus sapiens ну? 10:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Re: You still don't get that this article is Zionism, while anti-Zionism is another article. -- we get that, we just don't understand why it means that no links offering a perspective critical of Zionism can be featured here. Is there a policy backing up this division you're trying to establish here? BYT 14:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. There seem to be a small number of editors who are extremely dedicated to ensuring that this article retains a pro-Zionist perspective. I have previously attempted to make the intro more even-handed, but I, like most people, don't have the time to engage in the endless arguments that result.
The claim that this article should be pro-Zionist, and that other points of view should be relegated to the anti-zionism article, is like saying that the entry on Al Qaeda should describe it as an "Islamic liberation movement", and references to terrorism should be relegated to a separate page. Moopiefoof 15:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Further to my previous comments, Humus sapiens might like to consider that the current state of the article creates the impression that Wikipedia has been hijacked by Zionists, which obviously reflects badly on both Wikipedia and Zionists. If he really wishes to advance his Zionist agenda, he might be better off going along with the policy of NPOV. Moopiefoof 18:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Concerning the "fringe sources" argument - we can always replace them with Noam Chomsky and Hannah Arendt (in "Eichmann in Jerusalem"). But even the current ones exemplify a certain type of (liberal) criticism of Zionism, and they don't need to be notable per se. And I don't see how Dan Michman, Arthur Hertzberg and all the other sources mentioned are more notable than Wise and McDonald. -- Anonymous44 11:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
That sounds dubious (and the references there don't say it either). If we believe the more historically plausible parts of the Bible, then it seems that the Jewish people invaded "the land of Israel" (or rather, the land of the Canaanite, as it was known then), ousting the previous inhabitants - ergo, the Jewish people had already originated somewhere else. If, on the other hand, we are to believe every word of the Bible, including the story about Joseph and his ancestors, then of course it's possible to say that a "nation" (consisting of Abraham's family and the following couple of generations) originated in Palestine, but it is even more consistent to claim that it originated in Ur, where Abraham is supposed to have come from.-- 194.145.161.227 10:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that both of you have missed my point. I do not even care to contradict the Bible (of course parts of it are legend according to secular scholars; those who deny that and believe that every word of it is literally true are known to the rest of humanity as religious fundamentalists). But what I proved was that the current wording contradicts even the Bible, even as it remains our main source for Jeiwsh history. The Bible itself says clearly that Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldeans", and describes in detail how the Jews coming from Egypt conquered Palestine (Canaan) and ousted the original inhabitants (with God's support, I concede that). I can quote the relevant part, in Tiberian Hebrew if necessary. It's strange that my statements should come as a surprise (or even trolling) to Humus Sapiens. They ought to be self-evident for anybody who has read the relevant parts of the Tanakh/Old Testament.-- Anonymous44 11:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Of course, if someone provides a neutral, scholarly historical source that says that the Jewish nation originated in Palestine, then the statement should be included, and then I'd take the trouble to find one that says the opposite and include it too, and then we'd have NPOV. For the time being, the statement that the Jewish nation originated in Israel is both dubious and unsourced and should be deleted. Not to mention the fact that many historians would argue that even the word "nation" is anachronistic for pre-XVII/XVIII/XIX-th century history.-- Anonymous44 11:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Even if sufficient references can be given to state this as fact, the intro should make some reference to the people who inhabited the region from the 3rd to the 20th century. Also, historical Palestine is referred to by several names; should the article exclusively refer to it as "the land of Israel"? Moopiefoof 21:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I've protected the page due to the ongoing content dispute. Please work this out via talk, rather than edit warring. FeloniousMonk 14:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I have been pondering an RfC or some other administrative appeal to address the frankly embarrassing level of bias on this page for some time. Felonious, please note that talk doesn't seem to be producing any kind of consensus on core issues. Any thoughts on how we should proceed on dispute resolution? BYT 14:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
"Can we take this as a de-facto consensus?": not refuting the same arguments more than once doesn't equal tacit consent. You have been talked to here, though not by me. -- tickle me 23:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
What's "fragrant antisemitism"? Tom e r talk 21:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Not at issue is:
We're talking about this political philosophy, and we're talking about rectifying an imbalance in the links that appear in this article.
There is a distressing lack of links exemplifying contemporary and historic opposition to the political philosophy of Zionism in this article. Rather than getting sidetracked about the possible shortcomings of any particular link under discussion, I want to ask one more time, before I file an RFC about this, what editors think we can do to rectify this (rather embarrassing) imbalance in the links. { BYT 12:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
How people are actually using the word:
Does Lieberman subscribe, as a matter of personal political philosophy, to the ADL's definition of Zionism? [ | Counterpunch article, "Lieberman's conflict of interest"]
What, exactly, is the relevance to the matter at hand of whether zionism is or isn't a political philosophy or ideology? Moopiefoof 22:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
As explained many times above, the links already exist in the Anti-Zionism article; let's avoid the cloning process please. Jayjg (talk) 17:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I've got an even better idea. Let's take some of the links representing this viewpoint out of Anti-Zionism and put them here so as to give some balance to the article. Or, alternatively, let's do an RFC and get the input of a wider audience. BYT 18:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
In an attempt to break this logjam and avoid duplication, and following the example of The Holocaust and Holocaust (resources), I've created a sub-article for both the Zionism and Anti-Zionism articles which contains all the pro and anti-links, and various other resources. You can find it at Zionism and anti-Zionism (resources). Jayjg (talk) 18:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Insurance companies exhaust policyholders into walking away from legitimate claims. The career editors of this article exhaust attempts to restore NPOV to the links section in much the same way. BYT 12:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)