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The article has reverted to being a polemic justifying Zionism rather than a description of what zionism is. The first section in particular talking about arab invasion is just a toilet. There isn't even at attempt at NPOV - or even relevance to the topic.
Sorry but your definition and indeed your entire notion of Zionism is mistaken. Zionism has few if any parallel with Islamism. Also today virtually all moderate Jewish groups and individuals support Zionism. In fact the only Jewish group where there is some disagreement with Zionism is Hasidism and a few very small Orthodox groups, and even here they are an increasingly small minority.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 00:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I've added the following qualifications, which I think strike a fair compromise between some of the competing POV regarding this article:
I couldn't find any major issues I could address, other than the "Zionism == Racism" argument. I really think that deserves at least a mention here, since it is such a widespread view -- but I'm not sure how to do that. I don't think mention on Anti-Zionism is sufficient, since I'd like to understand more of the Zionist reaction and defense as well.
-- Wclark 15:43, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
I agree, the accusation of racism deserves at least one paragraph of discussion since it has such a large popularity. Both sides of the arguments can be discussed: the view that the Jews represent the evil white colonialists and an apartheid regime, on one hand (the law of return etc), and factual information on the other: that half of Israel's Jewry comes from Oriental and/or black races, and that these people are much racially closer to the Palestinians to Europeans, this is a totally different reality than the situation in South Africa was, where the base of the conflict was indeed racial. Here it is not, it is a Cultural conflict. A culture is not the same as the biological race of a person, unless you agree that a person can switch races at will, merely by switching cultures, religions and/or marriage. A ridiculous notion, in my view. A person has a right to select their cultural identity. However racial identity has nothing to do with his or her beliefs, and cannot be chosen. I'm a Jewish Israeli, and I'm confused, which race am I, and which race am I supposed to hate? please help me to properly represent your reality. Its tough being a proper racist without knowing these things, I mean you can't leave us to be ostracized by racists and anti-racists alike.
NOTE TO PARTICIPANTS IN THE ONGOING EDIT WAR Please stop reverting articles, and discuss here instead. I'd thought my most recent changes were a suitable compromise between competing POV, but apparently you disagree -- yet you did not read my comments here. Please make an attempt to discuss the issue, rather than revert without thinking. -- Wclark 16:33, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
De-indenting because it's getting too deep.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have taken such polls (though not anything approaching a representative sample, since they were conducted on a University campus years ago) – but as you point out (and I agree) that's not relevant. The point is that a significant number of people only know about the controversy surrounding Zionism, and practically nothing of the other details. The article as it stands does an excellent job of explaining those other details – but it mentions the controversy only briefly and in a disorganized manner. I apologize for missing this reference to the "Zionism is Racism" argument:
In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution which said that "Zionism is a form of racism." This resolution was rescinded in 1991. This issue is discussed in the article on anti-Zionism.
However, it's nowhere near the other mentions of opposing views (in particular, those of orthodox Jews) and in general the opposing positions aren't clearly represented. I want to state that I do not support those opposing views. I simply think they should be clearly presented to the reader, since they represent the only thing many people know about Zionism, and if they are hard to find in the text then it gives the impression of bias. I think they should perhaps be organized into a common section, or else a reference and link to Anti-Zionism should be made closer to the beginning of the article. Do you have other suggestions? -- Wclark 20:58, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
Maybe the same type of phrasing could be used to describe Zionism as is used here (from Right of return):
The Palestinian Arab right of return is a hotly disputed topic in Middle East politics
Is "hotly disputed topic" preferable to "controversial"? -- Wclark 21:46, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
No. The only relevant, necessary and NPOV thing to say about Zionism in the opening sentence is that it is a political movement. Saying that it is "controversial" or "hotly disputed" political movement is (a) tautological, because all political movements by definition are controversial and hotly disputed, and (b) POV, because it seeks to place Zionism in a category seperate from all other political movements, namely "hotly disputed ones." What this really means is "movements with which the majority of right-thinking Wikipedians have no sympathy." The opening sentence should be left as it is. Adam 10:04, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
De-indented again because it got too deep
*sigh*
Nobody refuted anything above. Adam's (implied) definition of "political movement" is wrong, as is his interpretation of what "controversial" means. I agreed that people misunderstand that term to be purely pejorative, so it's not a point worth pursuing. The fact remains that Zionism is a topic about which a great many people frequently enter into emotional debate, and that this happens more when discussing Zionism than with most (not all) other political topics. I can't understand why you won't acknowledge this blatantly obvious point. It doesn't reflect poorly on Zionism in any way, shape, or form, and is not a biased viewpoint – in fact, the same exact point applies to Anti-Zionism so it couldn't possibly reflect poorly upon Zionism. Would you consider it biased to say that abortion is a highly divisive issue? I simply consider it a neutral fact. It doesn't say anything about which side in the debate is right, only that the debate itself tends to get rather intense (and moreso than with other topics). I agree that adding bias to counter another bias is a bad idea, but that's not what I'm suggesting here. -- Wclark 18:19, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)
I suggest that new paragraphs be installed in the introductory section as follows:
---REPLY: ---I removed the words "ethnic nationalism" which is inaccurate and ---even Anti-Semitic. This is because Jews are not an ethnic group ---nor a race but a people. Instead, I used this wording "Zionism ---though originally a secular movement is today a religious ---movement to establish a State based on Halacha." which is ---much more better.
Adam 04:51, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Exactly. Jayjg 05:32, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am proposing all three paragraphs as a new intro section. I don't see anything wrong with an article commenting on itself as the 3rd para does. If the 2nd para is thought to be too detailed, it can be edited back. But I think we need to acknowledge that this article will be endlessly attacked unless it gives the reader an immediate link to anti-Zionism to show that the topic as a whole is being treated in a balanced way across two articles.
I agree that it is not "necessary" for the integrity of this article, which is why I resisted the idea previously, but I have been persuaded that it is "necessary" if the article is ever to achieve stability. And if it is necessary I would rather do it myself than allow various Zionophobes to do it for me.
"at most only 20-25 percent of Jews worldwide"; where do these numbers come from? Jayjg 16:30, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Definition of ideology:
Definition of political:
To me, it appears that a more precise description of Zionism is as an ideological movement than a political movement; "political" is too narrow.
Style 10:57, 2004 Aug 2 (UTC)
Where did that definition of ideology come from? Crude Marxism for Beginners? Adam 08:55, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
From errors of comission (such as calling Israel's ethnical cleansing a "civil war") to errors of omission (such as omitting the pogroms of non-Jews and occupation of Palestine), this is largely a piece of propaganda minimizing negative acts and consequences of Zionism. HistoryBuffEr 00:01, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)
1
I quote from the main article as of 26/Oct/2004: "(...) and to encourage Jews to settle there as they see it as their God given perogative."
Not at all. Zionism is not a monolithic body of ideas. What is called "right wing" supports this position. What is called "the peace camp" does not. Both are Zionists. (Yes, you could say that the first group is the majority nowadays.)
2.
The popular world opinion opposed the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine from the outset (...)
POV Central. Actually, the United Nations voted in 1947 for partition.
Some extremists apparently wish to define "Zionism" by who is using the word: " 'Zionist' is frequently used by anti-Semitic groups as a euphemism for "Jew." This was also a common practice in the Soviet Union and its satellites, notably Poland, before their collapse in 1991. See Zionist Occupied Government for an example of the current use of the term Zionist in this way. " So what does this mean? If a Zionist uses the word, it is legitimate. If a critic of Zionism uses it, it is a euphemism and an anti-Semitic attack? This is ridiculous. Where do Tikkun's or Noam Chomsky's critiques of Zionism fall in this scheme, legitimate or euphemistic? Who decides? This POV application needs to be deleted.-- Alberuni 04:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have requested that this article's featured status be removed because of it being the centre of frequent edit wars and having its factual accuracy and neutral point of view disputed. Vacuum | t c w 02:53, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
How come the article fails to mention the purchase of land from arabs mainly with Rothschild's help? Am I missing something? -- Anton Adelson, Western Australia 14:06, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
While it would definitely belong in articles about the history and development of Israel, the topic is not essential for a page about Zionism. This page is more about the ideology and the political movements relating to Zionism.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 01:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Is it true that Madagascar was briefly considered as a Jewish homeland? And how could anyone come up with such a dumb idea? Mjklin 21:51, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
The undertones of this article are not just outrageous, but inflamatory at times. Most Christians believe (those who practice and accept an orthodox [not Eastern Orthodoxy but rather a plain meaning in this context] interpretation of the Bible) that Israel should exist as a matter of biblical prophecy in numerous Old Testament books (Isaiah, Daniel) as well as the New Testament.
But it is the following that is disturbing in this article: "Christian Zionists also believe that most Jews will be killed and will "burn" in Hell..." As a matter of fact, the Bible states that all non-believers will burn(as a matter of fact the bible also mentions jews will see the christ and fall on their knees and worship him at first sight) in a lake of fire, not hell (gehenna or hades). Hell is distinct, and since this is an encyclopedia, it behooves the author(s) to write with accuracy.
It is appalling that the article insinuates that Christian "Zionists" support Israel with the hope of inheriting it someday, which is preposterous. The Bible explicity states in the final book of Revelation (sometimes known as the Apocolypse) that God will rule the Earth from Jerusalem, and that all "believers" of any origin will dwell both there and in all of the Earth and Heaven.
_____ Given the innacurate and clearly biased nature of the section entitled non-Jewish zionism, I have proposed the following replacement. I have posted it in the past, only to have it deleted, presumably under the auspice of it being vandalism. Nothing could be further from the truth; I am simply trying to repair tghe article of its original bias. An encyclopedic entry should not have to use the word 'burn' in quotes to show a colloquial. In addition to having a tone of bitterness and self-pity, the article misses the point entirely of non-Jewish zionism in Christians. Please note that the last section is the only one that I have edited.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The question of whether a non-Jew can be a Zionist is a largely semantic one, akin to the question of whether a man can be a feminist. The websites of major Zionist organisations make it clear these are entirely Jewish organisations. The website of the American Zionist Organization, for example says: "The American Zionist Movement is a coalition of organizations and individuals devoted to the unity of the Jewish people and eternally connected to our homeland, Israel." (emphasis added)
There are nevertheless many non-Jews who support the State of Israel, and some of these may choose to define themselves as Zionists.
Non-Jewish support for Zionism takes three forms:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why not create specific sections of this article to deal with pro-zionist arguements and anti-zionist arguements? -Isaiah R, 15 December
That all you are saying, believing and fighting for are plain false. Muslim will dwell all the Earth, even Qudus, that you call jerusalem! But we will not distroy the world, we will just keep it out of the problems.
Who wrote that post? It would be much appreciated if people identified themselves. Also, I belive it would be much more appropriate for the article on Islam, and what Muslims believe. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04
I have added quotes from two Pro-Zionist Jews, Rabbi Emanuel Rabinovich and Israel Cohen, that relate to the true concept of Zionism, and the role it has played in 20th century race relations. There may be some controversy surrounding this addition, as both quotes are, I should say, "sensitive" in nature. However, they exsist, and shall be included in this article as they shine light on the true nature of Zionism. Please check refs before debating /editing. Thank you.
--
The supposed quotation from Israel Cohen is a product of Eustace Mullins's imagination. I found the full story on pp. 355–356 of the book Quotemanship: The Use and Abuse of Quotations for Polemical and Other Purposes, by Paul F. Boller Jr. In brief, a Mississippian Congressman found the quotation in a letter to the Washington Star and read it during a debate over a civil rights bill in 1957 in order to prove that the U.S. civil rights movement was a Communist plot. This accounts for its appearance in the Congressional Record, which has lent it an undeserved veneer of authenticity. What the racist websites that propagate the quotation don't tell you is:
All of this was read into the Congressional Record on August 30, 1958, by Rep. Abraham Multer of New York. Look it up if you like.
Multer further noted that "Mullins has, apparently, a marked propensity for phony claims and counterfeit creations. Some of his counterfeits include a speech by a nonexistent Hungarian rabbi. . .", which I suspect accounts for the supposed quotation from Rabbi Rabinovich (whose existence, curiously, is attested only on many of the same racist websites that carry the forged Cohen quotation. . .). My suspicion is corroborated by which names the Rabinovich quotation as one of Mullins' inventions. (I'll see if I can find a better source.)
Some of this could probably go in our article on Eustace Mullins, which would be the right place for the quotations as well. — Charles P. (Mirv) 06:06, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Check it out: A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century. As far as I can tell that's the only thorough debunking of the quotation now available on the interweb; it ought to make up for the unfortunate fact that Google crawled this article while the nonsense was still in it. Now to deal with the equally-spurious Rabinovich story. . . — Charles P. (Mirv) 14:29, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I see there is a "factual dispute" label, can anybody specify what are the disputed facts? MathKnight 20:21, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As a Semite and a Muslim, I do not consider myself Anti-Semite, however I'm a Anti-Zionist ! What is the reason that Anti-Semitism is linked to Arabs continously !?
Semite is a language group. Anti-Semitism was a term created to name Jew-hatred; therefore, other "Semitic" people (although there are no such things) could ostensibly be anti-Semitic. I do not think that anti-Semitism is or should be linked to Arabs. One, there are Arab Jews!
Could we please make sure that no more neo nazis post excerpts from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or imaginary speeches by non existant rabbis called Emmanuel Rabinovich or Israel Cohen? This is an embarrassment.
Thanks,
-- Guy Montag
Do you know where I can find free (public domain or GNU) Zionist posters (to encourage Aliya and boost the moral of the Zionist settlers in Israel)? MathKnight 20:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
95% Arab population in 1880 is false. Ottomon census gives total Muslim population of 141 000 Jewish population at the same time is estimated at 40 000. In addition estimated 75% Muslim population was Ottoman, remaining 25% were a mix of Arab (mainly from Egypt), Circassian, Bushnaks and others. No evidence of Arab population going back further than the the early 19th century, let alone being there for 1000s of years! Kuratowski's Ghost 14:19, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am curious, what does the Ottoman census referenced above, say about the Christian population of Palestine at the time? Dabbler 21:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The most recent edit goes into some detail about Herzl's feelings regarding the Dreyfuss affair. Is that really at all relevant for here (as opposed to either Herzl's or Dreyfuss' own articles)? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 02:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought that the whole article was Pro-Zionist Propaganda! I strongly doubt that the Jewish population is overwhelmingly Pro-Zionist. I think that it is more accurate to say that they are overwhelmingly Anti-Zionist! Zionism just has a strong presence in the Jewish community. I have a pretty good understanding that it is a very racist ideology that regard Jews as THE "people of god" and Palestineans having no rights! There are documented cases, according to two books, Zionist Relations Within Nazi Germany and Dossier on Palestine, that the Zionists during World War 2 negotiated with the Nazis! Not that they agreed with the Nazi about the extermination of the Jews but that the two used eachother to meet their own ends (the Zionists wanted to use the holocaust to justify forming the state of Israel). I strongly believe that these arguments should be used to present the other, missing side of the argument. This article is FAR from nuetral.≈ 154.20.71.90|15:00, 14 May 2005
What I think that really need to have are in this section is the Arab, Muslim and Palestinean on Zionism as well as the perspectives of Jews that are anti-Zionist. Besides most white racism is now is directed toward Arabs and Muslims and no longer Jews. Leon Trotsky 20:00, 16 May 2005
This is an encyclopedia, not the OK Corral. Settle down, everyone. A damp handkerchief on the neck can help in these situations. - Willmcw 11:19, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
So are we done discussing this nonsense now?
Guy Montag 21:13, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
user:Molloy has it half right. The Zionist poster is propaganda. However it certainly belongs. And, to provide an illustration for the anti-Zionist section, it is NPOV to reproduce one of the many anti-Zionist cartoons and posters that have been created, which are also propaganda. However the cartoon that Molloy was adding depicts the supposed bias of the U.N. in the Middle East, or perhaps even regarding the Intifada in particular, rather than Zionism per se. If we can obtain a cartoon which directly and clearly pertains to Zionism (such as the many that have commented on the U.N. Assembly's "Zionism is racism" resolution) and which isn't in bad taste then I think we should include it. (Most political cartoons over the last half-century are copyrighted, so I don't know where we can get one). - Willmcw 07:17, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
We have a POV dispute between "settlement in" and "collonisation of". Adding tag. 62.253.64.14 23:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
In response to Molly and Jayjg I really think the article on Zionism really needs to have an equally strong anti-zionist side but it shouldn't have an anti-semetic side to. The reason I oppose Zionism is because it is a racist idealogy but so are anti-semitic ideologies like white "nationalism" (more accurately called chauvinism) and nazism.
In opposing Zionism I don't think any left-wing (I'm a Marxist, Leninist and Trotskyist by the way) activist should block with people like the Nazis, Pat Buchanan etc. The reasons are a) its unprincipled and b) they don't oppose Zionism for persecuting and oppressing Palestinians they oppose it because they oppose Jews.
One thing really needs to be made clear that Judaism, the Jewish culture and the Jewish people are completely different from Zionism. The Jews are a race just like chinese, japanese, english, french, blacks, arabs, persians etc.
I think if you were to parralel the Israel-Palestine conflict with WW2 the Zionists would be most like the Nazis, the Palestians the Jews and the Jews the Germans. The Zionists have committed the same type of atrocities on the Palestians that the Nazis had committed on the Jews. The Palestinians the Jews because they both were/are persecuted in the same types of ways. And finally, the Jews would be like the Germans in the sense that they happen to be the same race as the Zionists (who committing the atrocities) but don't necessarily support Zionism. Some Jews support Zionism, others are opposed and others are neutral. Just like the Germans in Germany.
Another point to make is that not only is there the Zionist state of Israel persecuted and opressing Palestinians their is also Non-Palestian Arabs oppressing Palestians (ie the Hashimite dynasty in Jordan) as well the Israeli Bourgeoisie (ruling class and owners of capital, the means of production) oppressing the Israeli Proletariet (working class and producer of commodities). Leon Trotsky 09:32, 22 July 2005
"I really think the article on Zionism really needs to have an equally strong anti-zionist side" with that logic, the an article on France needs to have an "equally strong" anti-French prespective. Umm... no. It's an off topic attempt to introduce a POV. There IS an anti-Zionism article for that and it IS linked.
In addition the attempt to link to anti-Zionist sources is out of line. I removed the section on "anti-Zionist links" and I see the links have now been put back under the "Jewish denominations' view of Zionism" section. I will now remove them again. The webpage of political anti-Zionist groups are not Jewish denominations. In fact it's only one group, who regularly try to promote themselves using three different websites. In any case they are not denomination but part of the "Haredi (Ultra-Orthodox) Jews"... in general Ultra-Orthadox Jews are still Zionists. Can these people please stop trying to link the Zionism article to their anti-Zionist website! Oboler 18:12, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the previous posters about NPOV and I am going to try putting up an expanded NPOV flag. One example can of bias can be seen in describing the PLO, the Haganah, and the Irgun. Compare the two:
"The Palestine Liberation Organisation, created in 1965 as an Egyptian-controlled propaganda device, took on new life as an autonomous movement led by Yasser Arafat, and soon turned to terrorism as its principal means of struggle."
and
"Two military movements were founded, the Labor-dominated Haganah and the Revisionist Irgun. The latter group did not hesitate to take military action against the Arab population."
So not only was the PLO started as 'propoganda' (clearly a negative connotation) it uses 'terrorism' (again very negative connotation) for its struggle. However, the Irgun 'did not hesitate' (a positive connotation, in fact almost heroic) to use 'military action' (neutral, but in contrast to the terrorism of the PLO it seems rather positive).
So, I know there clearly others who believe the article to be a POV and I would like them to add other references.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.90.141.57 ( talk • contribs) 19:12, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The six million number is, and has, been in dispute which is the reference to 'supposed' because it is not completely accurate (it is not denial of the holocaust to merely deny a number as accurate). As well if you refer to the Holocaust entry you will see that of the six million number 2.9 million are to have died within the camps. Hence they were not actively 'killed' and they therefore 'died'. So, in effect, the edit is not to deny the Holocaust but rather for neutrality. As saying that a supposed (perhaps estimated would be better) six million died is actually making a neutral statement, because although some were killed others died. I feel the entry that was in question was put in that way on purpose so as to garner sympathy for Zionism, but then again so is alot of this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.90.141.57 ( talk • contribs) 19:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
It's not too suprising that the POV dispute was deleted within minutes. Thanks Wikipedia for being so objective, i'm glad you will never actually be regarded as a legitimate source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.90.141.57 ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure why Zionism is constantly beign called "ethnic nationalism." This is not a common differentiation in the academic community. In fact, in the 19th century, all nationalism was based on ethnicity, and Zionism was clearly a nationialistic movement, in the 19th century sense. Can someone give a source about "ethnic nationalism"? -- Goodoldpolonius2 14:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Goodoldpolonius2, you are confusing "Jews" with "Israelis". If Zionism was Israeli nationalism then you would have a point. And logically all those people who are calling for Israel to give Arab refugees citizenship are also Zionists. But that isn't the case, and there isn't an Israeli nationality. Israel is the Jewish state. Sovereignty belongs to the Jews only, by law. That is what Israel was created for. That is what a Zionist today supports. That is why calling for an Israeli nationality to include other ethnicities is considered anti-Zionism. If Zionism is civic-nationalism and patriotism then why don't Arab-Israelis celebrate Israel's independence day? And why don't Zionists celebrate the Arabs' Land Day?
But, talking about categories, it should be clear that there are also several forms of Zionism. You can talk about a religious Jewish Zionism, a cultural Hebrew Zionism, and also a secular ethnic Jewish Zionism, which have not always agreed. The article confuses these different currents of thought. (I notice Martin Buber is only mentioned in the Anti-Zionism section!)
My point is, to avoid confusion, the article should distinguish between ethnic Zionism and religious/cultural Zionism. --
Yodakii
11:47, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I changed some wording in the "Jewish reaction" section to clarify and correct the portrayal of the historical attitude of religious Jews. The previous wording was, at the very least, internally inconsistent in that it claimed that religious Jews held both that aliyah was a commandment and that it was a blasphemy.
Jay --
There have been on the order of 10 million Jews throughout the world over most of the period from the fall of the Second Temple to the beginning of modern Zionism; many of these Jews lived in the Middle East in areas (Yemen, e.g.) at least as inhospitable as the Israel region; most of the rest lived in Europe, where they were expelled en masse from different countries dozens of times. And over several hundred years, a few thousands made their way to Israel, with probably a majority of those doing so in relation to messianic movements that came to naught. This is a "surprisingly high" rate of aliyah? I would say that it would be more surprising that an act that was "obligatory when possible," as you claim aliyah was considered, would so broadly be avoided!
The whole section is written in a biased way -- "Zionism did not initially receive universal support from the world Jewish community...?" In fact, Zionism coes not currently receive universal support from the world Jewish community, and it never has! Initially, Zionism was broadly -- not "occasionally!" -- actively opposed by almost all religious Jewish groups. And yet this section is written as though Zionism has always been a mainstream Jewish position.
"Religious Jews believe ..." -- who has the authority to declare what religious Jews believe? This needs to be qualified in some way; it is very similar to the pronouncements from Neturei Karta that truly observant Jews oppose the existence of the State of Israel.
"... many religious Jews were not enthusiastic about Zionism before the 1930s ..." That's really not true in many ways, Jay -- most religious Jews were enthusiastic about Zionism: they were enthusiastically opposed to it! You may look to the online Jewish Encyclopedia to get a flavor of the early rabbinical attitude to Zionism.
I am going to use this space to suggest some fairly broad changes to the section, Jay, in order to give you a chance to comment. I hope we can agree on appropriate wording and emphasis. Right now, I think the section is profoundly misleading.
(Deletions within braces; additions italicized.)
(This, I strongly believe, is far more accurate than the original, and it improves the wording.) Marsden 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
(This removes the categorical description of religious Jews and more clearly indicates that Zionism was opposed by most Jewish religious factions. Also, it introduces the small matter of messianism that most groups attached to the Israel matter as well as the "religion of ideas" track of the more liberal groups.) Marsden 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
(This is more descriptive than the original, and I think it accurately captures the underlying Zionist-ic sentiment of diaspora Judaism without suggesting that very many Jews were actively planning on living in Israel any time soon.)
I'll give you an opportunity, Jay, to complain about my proposed changes to the first paragraph before I continue. Marsden 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Do I dare infer that the last sentence was agreeable? Marsden 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Where I think we stand:
How does that look to you? Marsden 00:40, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
How about this:
Thoughts? Jayjg (talk) 05:17, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to replace the paragraph with Jay's version, less the word "imminent." We can further haggle from there. A lot of this article seems to have been ruined by editing -- the first sentence frankly sucks, not so much for content but because it is such an outrageous run-on sentence that it is painful to read. I think I will make re-writing the whole thing a side project for myself. Marsden 14:26, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
The deleted text was:
It is already acknowledged that "few" (and certainly none of the people mentioned in the paragraph) are arguing for the "eventuality" (resettlement of the existing Jewish population of modern-day Israel). So the question of "viable alternatives" does not arise. Brian Tvedt 11:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Something -- probably a series of editing wars -- has turned a lot of this article to crap. I mean, above and beyond any content issues, a lot of it has become ill-legible. I am stupid enough to take it upon myself to do a major clean-up.
However, there are immediately things that stick in my craw. Number one, Zionism is not a "Jewish political movement;" it is a point of view. Specifically, it is a point of view that supports political control of part or all of the historical Land of Israel by the Jewish people. Many of the people holding this point of view are Jewish, and many of them have organized into various political movements aimed at realizing the goal of Zionism. But first and foremost, and tautologically, it is a point of view.
I propose that the term "Zionism" be used always to mean a point of view; if political movements in the direction of Zionism are to be discussed, they can be refered to collectively as "the Zionist Movement," or individually as "Zionist organizations."
I would also like to use this space to hash out an outline of what should be included in the re-written article, and (as importantly) what should be excluded.
Comments? Marsden 00:10, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Wow, Marsden, I really appreciate the condescending attitude without any basis whatsoever except that you seem to have no sources to cite. Right out of the box, you make discussions very unpleasant, and you are not winning any points on Wikipedia.
On to the meat of the matter, you ignore my point about the very WordNet definition you invoked, you dismiss the OED definition out of hand, you don't address Vital, and you call Goldscheider and Zuckerman "irrelevant" for no good reason. I appreciate your Atlantic Monthly article from 1919 attacking Zionism as being transitory, and the fact that your "source is the English language" (folk entymology is rarely a good basis for a definition) but I am not sure how that addresses any of the modern, scholarly definitions I have given you. Your work is simply original research unless you have some sort of reputable source. Zionism is an Jewish political movement that contains within it many different competing factions and ideologies about how its goal (the establishment of a Jewish homeland in at least part of Zion) would be achieved, and which continues today in support of Israel, and it is not at all unusual for movements to have many factions (take a look at the Democrats, Republicans, or Likud) Of course a longing for return to the lands of Zion existed before Zionism, but Zionism has a specific name and meaning, a history, organizations, etc. You cannot bestow a wider label just because you want to, Zionism really has a provinance outside of your own vision. The definition that starts the article is accurate and supported (and clear!), your definition (Zionism is a point of view) is not. I think there is room to compromise around the term "ideology," however since I would agree that Zionism refers to both a Jewish political movement started in the 19th century, and the ideology it supported and spawned, but that doesn't seem to be what you are aiming for.
Would anyone else like to weigh in here, because I am fairly sure that Marsden will continue to insult me, and not engage any of the information I present, because it contradicts his POV. I am happy to go with consensus, if the majority of editors think I am wrong, but I would like to see some sources supporting an alternative definition. -- Goodoldpolonius2 04:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Moving on ...
A draft of what I think the article should open with:
A BIG omission in the current article, I think, is a statement of the competing claims to Palestine, which probably would best fit in the "Zionism and the Arabs" section. I also think an "Other Reactions" after the "Jewish Reaction to Zionism" section would be good. This could probably supplant the "Non-Jewish Zionism" section and permit a "hostorical progression" look at the matter. Marsden 14:40, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I think my version is more concise and reads much better. A lot of what you include in your first paragraph (and that is in the current first paragraph) is historiography that doesn't, in my opinion, belong there. The first paragraph of an encyclopedia entry should explain, for someone who has never heard of the entry item before, what it is. For Zionism, obviously the most important thing is its position on Jewish control of the Land of Israel; in this respect, your first two sentences are unwieldy.
I'm sorry to see that you remain wrong in your understanding of the relative importance of the ideology of Zionism. ;) Marsden 16:11, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I understand your point, but my main objection remains that introducing a split between Zionism as a point of view Zionism-as-a-movement is arbitrary, and that it creates a big problem. It relegates the most common definition of Zionism, the political movement, to a sub-definition or an expression of an ideology. This is not supported by the evidence, as Zionism refers primarily and mostly to the movement, and other meanings spring from it. Take a look at the Jewish Agency's Zionism timeline or the Israeli MFA's 100 years of Zionism. All use Zionism to refer to the movement, and so should we. Perhaps a solution is to acknowledge the yearning for Zion and early rabbinical movements as distinct from Zionism, just as the Jewish Agency does, calling them "forerunners of Zionism" [2]. If you do want to maintain that we should use the word "Zionism" to refer to an state of mind that existed before the 19th century, I still would like to see it explicitly used that way in a few reputible sources as the major meaning. As for the state of Zionism today, it is more of an ideology than a movement, but I think the current introduction tries to say that after 1948, the movement changed.
In summary, I suggest that we have three periods, as does the Jewish Agency, WZO, and many other writers on the topic: "Forerunners of Zionism," "Zionism" (the movement, with all of its splinters and arguments), "post-1948 Zionism." Does this help at all? -- Goodoldpolonius2 04:23, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
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The article has reverted to being a polemic justifying Zionism rather than a description of what zionism is. The first section in particular talking about arab invasion is just a toilet. There isn't even at attempt at NPOV - or even relevance to the topic.
Sorry but your definition and indeed your entire notion of Zionism is mistaken. Zionism has few if any parallel with Islamism. Also today virtually all moderate Jewish groups and individuals support Zionism. In fact the only Jewish group where there is some disagreement with Zionism is Hasidism and a few very small Orthodox groups, and even here they are an increasingly small minority.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 00:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I've added the following qualifications, which I think strike a fair compromise between some of the competing POV regarding this article:
I couldn't find any major issues I could address, other than the "Zionism == Racism" argument. I really think that deserves at least a mention here, since it is such a widespread view -- but I'm not sure how to do that. I don't think mention on Anti-Zionism is sufficient, since I'd like to understand more of the Zionist reaction and defense as well.
-- Wclark 15:43, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
I agree, the accusation of racism deserves at least one paragraph of discussion since it has such a large popularity. Both sides of the arguments can be discussed: the view that the Jews represent the evil white colonialists and an apartheid regime, on one hand (the law of return etc), and factual information on the other: that half of Israel's Jewry comes from Oriental and/or black races, and that these people are much racially closer to the Palestinians to Europeans, this is a totally different reality than the situation in South Africa was, where the base of the conflict was indeed racial. Here it is not, it is a Cultural conflict. A culture is not the same as the biological race of a person, unless you agree that a person can switch races at will, merely by switching cultures, religions and/or marriage. A ridiculous notion, in my view. A person has a right to select their cultural identity. However racial identity has nothing to do with his or her beliefs, and cannot be chosen. I'm a Jewish Israeli, and I'm confused, which race am I, and which race am I supposed to hate? please help me to properly represent your reality. Its tough being a proper racist without knowing these things, I mean you can't leave us to be ostracized by racists and anti-racists alike.
NOTE TO PARTICIPANTS IN THE ONGOING EDIT WAR Please stop reverting articles, and discuss here instead. I'd thought my most recent changes were a suitable compromise between competing POV, but apparently you disagree -- yet you did not read my comments here. Please make an attempt to discuss the issue, rather than revert without thinking. -- Wclark 16:33, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
De-indenting because it's getting too deep.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have taken such polls (though not anything approaching a representative sample, since they were conducted on a University campus years ago) – but as you point out (and I agree) that's not relevant. The point is that a significant number of people only know about the controversy surrounding Zionism, and practically nothing of the other details. The article as it stands does an excellent job of explaining those other details – but it mentions the controversy only briefly and in a disorganized manner. I apologize for missing this reference to the "Zionism is Racism" argument:
In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution which said that "Zionism is a form of racism." This resolution was rescinded in 1991. This issue is discussed in the article on anti-Zionism.
However, it's nowhere near the other mentions of opposing views (in particular, those of orthodox Jews) and in general the opposing positions aren't clearly represented. I want to state that I do not support those opposing views. I simply think they should be clearly presented to the reader, since they represent the only thing many people know about Zionism, and if they are hard to find in the text then it gives the impression of bias. I think they should perhaps be organized into a common section, or else a reference and link to Anti-Zionism should be made closer to the beginning of the article. Do you have other suggestions? -- Wclark 20:58, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
Maybe the same type of phrasing could be used to describe Zionism as is used here (from Right of return):
The Palestinian Arab right of return is a hotly disputed topic in Middle East politics
Is "hotly disputed topic" preferable to "controversial"? -- Wclark 21:46, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
No. The only relevant, necessary and NPOV thing to say about Zionism in the opening sentence is that it is a political movement. Saying that it is "controversial" or "hotly disputed" political movement is (a) tautological, because all political movements by definition are controversial and hotly disputed, and (b) POV, because it seeks to place Zionism in a category seperate from all other political movements, namely "hotly disputed ones." What this really means is "movements with which the majority of right-thinking Wikipedians have no sympathy." The opening sentence should be left as it is. Adam 10:04, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
De-indented again because it got too deep
*sigh*
Nobody refuted anything above. Adam's (implied) definition of "political movement" is wrong, as is his interpretation of what "controversial" means. I agreed that people misunderstand that term to be purely pejorative, so it's not a point worth pursuing. The fact remains that Zionism is a topic about which a great many people frequently enter into emotional debate, and that this happens more when discussing Zionism than with most (not all) other political topics. I can't understand why you won't acknowledge this blatantly obvious point. It doesn't reflect poorly on Zionism in any way, shape, or form, and is not a biased viewpoint – in fact, the same exact point applies to Anti-Zionism so it couldn't possibly reflect poorly upon Zionism. Would you consider it biased to say that abortion is a highly divisive issue? I simply consider it a neutral fact. It doesn't say anything about which side in the debate is right, only that the debate itself tends to get rather intense (and moreso than with other topics). I agree that adding bias to counter another bias is a bad idea, but that's not what I'm suggesting here. -- Wclark 18:19, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)
I suggest that new paragraphs be installed in the introductory section as follows:
---REPLY: ---I removed the words "ethnic nationalism" which is inaccurate and ---even Anti-Semitic. This is because Jews are not an ethnic group ---nor a race but a people. Instead, I used this wording "Zionism ---though originally a secular movement is today a religious ---movement to establish a State based on Halacha." which is ---much more better.
Adam 04:51, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Exactly. Jayjg 05:32, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am proposing all three paragraphs as a new intro section. I don't see anything wrong with an article commenting on itself as the 3rd para does. If the 2nd para is thought to be too detailed, it can be edited back. But I think we need to acknowledge that this article will be endlessly attacked unless it gives the reader an immediate link to anti-Zionism to show that the topic as a whole is being treated in a balanced way across two articles.
I agree that it is not "necessary" for the integrity of this article, which is why I resisted the idea previously, but I have been persuaded that it is "necessary" if the article is ever to achieve stability. And if it is necessary I would rather do it myself than allow various Zionophobes to do it for me.
"at most only 20-25 percent of Jews worldwide"; where do these numbers come from? Jayjg 16:30, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Definition of ideology:
Definition of political:
To me, it appears that a more precise description of Zionism is as an ideological movement than a political movement; "political" is too narrow.
Style 10:57, 2004 Aug 2 (UTC)
Where did that definition of ideology come from? Crude Marxism for Beginners? Adam 08:55, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
From errors of comission (such as calling Israel's ethnical cleansing a "civil war") to errors of omission (such as omitting the pogroms of non-Jews and occupation of Palestine), this is largely a piece of propaganda minimizing negative acts and consequences of Zionism. HistoryBuffEr 00:01, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)
1
I quote from the main article as of 26/Oct/2004: "(...) and to encourage Jews to settle there as they see it as their God given perogative."
Not at all. Zionism is not a monolithic body of ideas. What is called "right wing" supports this position. What is called "the peace camp" does not. Both are Zionists. (Yes, you could say that the first group is the majority nowadays.)
2.
The popular world opinion opposed the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine from the outset (...)
POV Central. Actually, the United Nations voted in 1947 for partition.
Some extremists apparently wish to define "Zionism" by who is using the word: " 'Zionist' is frequently used by anti-Semitic groups as a euphemism for "Jew." This was also a common practice in the Soviet Union and its satellites, notably Poland, before their collapse in 1991. See Zionist Occupied Government for an example of the current use of the term Zionist in this way. " So what does this mean? If a Zionist uses the word, it is legitimate. If a critic of Zionism uses it, it is a euphemism and an anti-Semitic attack? This is ridiculous. Where do Tikkun's or Noam Chomsky's critiques of Zionism fall in this scheme, legitimate or euphemistic? Who decides? This POV application needs to be deleted.-- Alberuni 04:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have requested that this article's featured status be removed because of it being the centre of frequent edit wars and having its factual accuracy and neutral point of view disputed. Vacuum | t c w 02:53, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
How come the article fails to mention the purchase of land from arabs mainly with Rothschild's help? Am I missing something? -- Anton Adelson, Western Australia 14:06, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
While it would definitely belong in articles about the history and development of Israel, the topic is not essential for a page about Zionism. This page is more about the ideology and the political movements relating to Zionism.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 01:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Is it true that Madagascar was briefly considered as a Jewish homeland? And how could anyone come up with such a dumb idea? Mjklin 21:51, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
The undertones of this article are not just outrageous, but inflamatory at times. Most Christians believe (those who practice and accept an orthodox [not Eastern Orthodoxy but rather a plain meaning in this context] interpretation of the Bible) that Israel should exist as a matter of biblical prophecy in numerous Old Testament books (Isaiah, Daniel) as well as the New Testament.
But it is the following that is disturbing in this article: "Christian Zionists also believe that most Jews will be killed and will "burn" in Hell..." As a matter of fact, the Bible states that all non-believers will burn(as a matter of fact the bible also mentions jews will see the christ and fall on their knees and worship him at first sight) in a lake of fire, not hell (gehenna or hades). Hell is distinct, and since this is an encyclopedia, it behooves the author(s) to write with accuracy.
It is appalling that the article insinuates that Christian "Zionists" support Israel with the hope of inheriting it someday, which is preposterous. The Bible explicity states in the final book of Revelation (sometimes known as the Apocolypse) that God will rule the Earth from Jerusalem, and that all "believers" of any origin will dwell both there and in all of the Earth and Heaven.
_____ Given the innacurate and clearly biased nature of the section entitled non-Jewish zionism, I have proposed the following replacement. I have posted it in the past, only to have it deleted, presumably under the auspice of it being vandalism. Nothing could be further from the truth; I am simply trying to repair tghe article of its original bias. An encyclopedic entry should not have to use the word 'burn' in quotes to show a colloquial. In addition to having a tone of bitterness and self-pity, the article misses the point entirely of non-Jewish zionism in Christians. Please note that the last section is the only one that I have edited.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The question of whether a non-Jew can be a Zionist is a largely semantic one, akin to the question of whether a man can be a feminist. The websites of major Zionist organisations make it clear these are entirely Jewish organisations. The website of the American Zionist Organization, for example says: "The American Zionist Movement is a coalition of organizations and individuals devoted to the unity of the Jewish people and eternally connected to our homeland, Israel." (emphasis added)
There are nevertheless many non-Jews who support the State of Israel, and some of these may choose to define themselves as Zionists.
Non-Jewish support for Zionism takes three forms:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why not create specific sections of this article to deal with pro-zionist arguements and anti-zionist arguements? -Isaiah R, 15 December
That all you are saying, believing and fighting for are plain false. Muslim will dwell all the Earth, even Qudus, that you call jerusalem! But we will not distroy the world, we will just keep it out of the problems.
Who wrote that post? It would be much appreciated if people identified themselves. Also, I belive it would be much more appropriate for the article on Islam, and what Muslims believe. -Isaiah R, 12/18/04
I have added quotes from two Pro-Zionist Jews, Rabbi Emanuel Rabinovich and Israel Cohen, that relate to the true concept of Zionism, and the role it has played in 20th century race relations. There may be some controversy surrounding this addition, as both quotes are, I should say, "sensitive" in nature. However, they exsist, and shall be included in this article as they shine light on the true nature of Zionism. Please check refs before debating /editing. Thank you.
--
The supposed quotation from Israel Cohen is a product of Eustace Mullins's imagination. I found the full story on pp. 355–356 of the book Quotemanship: The Use and Abuse of Quotations for Polemical and Other Purposes, by Paul F. Boller Jr. In brief, a Mississippian Congressman found the quotation in a letter to the Washington Star and read it during a debate over a civil rights bill in 1957 in order to prove that the U.S. civil rights movement was a Communist plot. This accounts for its appearance in the Congressional Record, which has lent it an undeserved veneer of authenticity. What the racist websites that propagate the quotation don't tell you is:
All of this was read into the Congressional Record on August 30, 1958, by Rep. Abraham Multer of New York. Look it up if you like.
Multer further noted that "Mullins has, apparently, a marked propensity for phony claims and counterfeit creations. Some of his counterfeits include a speech by a nonexistent Hungarian rabbi. . .", which I suspect accounts for the supposed quotation from Rabbi Rabinovich (whose existence, curiously, is attested only on many of the same racist websites that carry the forged Cohen quotation. . .). My suspicion is corroborated by which names the Rabinovich quotation as one of Mullins' inventions. (I'll see if I can find a better source.)
Some of this could probably go in our article on Eustace Mullins, which would be the right place for the quotations as well. — Charles P. (Mirv) 06:06, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Check it out: A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century. As far as I can tell that's the only thorough debunking of the quotation now available on the interweb; it ought to make up for the unfortunate fact that Google crawled this article while the nonsense was still in it. Now to deal with the equally-spurious Rabinovich story. . . — Charles P. (Mirv) 14:29, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I see there is a "factual dispute" label, can anybody specify what are the disputed facts? MathKnight 20:21, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As a Semite and a Muslim, I do not consider myself Anti-Semite, however I'm a Anti-Zionist ! What is the reason that Anti-Semitism is linked to Arabs continously !?
Semite is a language group. Anti-Semitism was a term created to name Jew-hatred; therefore, other "Semitic" people (although there are no such things) could ostensibly be anti-Semitic. I do not think that anti-Semitism is or should be linked to Arabs. One, there are Arab Jews!
Could we please make sure that no more neo nazis post excerpts from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or imaginary speeches by non existant rabbis called Emmanuel Rabinovich or Israel Cohen? This is an embarrassment.
Thanks,
-- Guy Montag
Do you know where I can find free (public domain or GNU) Zionist posters (to encourage Aliya and boost the moral of the Zionist settlers in Israel)? MathKnight 20:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
95% Arab population in 1880 is false. Ottomon census gives total Muslim population of 141 000 Jewish population at the same time is estimated at 40 000. In addition estimated 75% Muslim population was Ottoman, remaining 25% were a mix of Arab (mainly from Egypt), Circassian, Bushnaks and others. No evidence of Arab population going back further than the the early 19th century, let alone being there for 1000s of years! Kuratowski's Ghost 14:19, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am curious, what does the Ottoman census referenced above, say about the Christian population of Palestine at the time? Dabbler 21:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The most recent edit goes into some detail about Herzl's feelings regarding the Dreyfuss affair. Is that really at all relevant for here (as opposed to either Herzl's or Dreyfuss' own articles)? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 02:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought that the whole article was Pro-Zionist Propaganda! I strongly doubt that the Jewish population is overwhelmingly Pro-Zionist. I think that it is more accurate to say that they are overwhelmingly Anti-Zionist! Zionism just has a strong presence in the Jewish community. I have a pretty good understanding that it is a very racist ideology that regard Jews as THE "people of god" and Palestineans having no rights! There are documented cases, according to two books, Zionist Relations Within Nazi Germany and Dossier on Palestine, that the Zionists during World War 2 negotiated with the Nazis! Not that they agreed with the Nazi about the extermination of the Jews but that the two used eachother to meet their own ends (the Zionists wanted to use the holocaust to justify forming the state of Israel). I strongly believe that these arguments should be used to present the other, missing side of the argument. This article is FAR from nuetral.≈ 154.20.71.90|15:00, 14 May 2005
What I think that really need to have are in this section is the Arab, Muslim and Palestinean on Zionism as well as the perspectives of Jews that are anti-Zionist. Besides most white racism is now is directed toward Arabs and Muslims and no longer Jews. Leon Trotsky 20:00, 16 May 2005
This is an encyclopedia, not the OK Corral. Settle down, everyone. A damp handkerchief on the neck can help in these situations. - Willmcw 11:19, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
So are we done discussing this nonsense now?
Guy Montag 21:13, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
user:Molloy has it half right. The Zionist poster is propaganda. However it certainly belongs. And, to provide an illustration for the anti-Zionist section, it is NPOV to reproduce one of the many anti-Zionist cartoons and posters that have been created, which are also propaganda. However the cartoon that Molloy was adding depicts the supposed bias of the U.N. in the Middle East, or perhaps even regarding the Intifada in particular, rather than Zionism per se. If we can obtain a cartoon which directly and clearly pertains to Zionism (such as the many that have commented on the U.N. Assembly's "Zionism is racism" resolution) and which isn't in bad taste then I think we should include it. (Most political cartoons over the last half-century are copyrighted, so I don't know where we can get one). - Willmcw 07:17, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
We have a POV dispute between "settlement in" and "collonisation of". Adding tag. 62.253.64.14 23:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
In response to Molly and Jayjg I really think the article on Zionism really needs to have an equally strong anti-zionist side but it shouldn't have an anti-semetic side to. The reason I oppose Zionism is because it is a racist idealogy but so are anti-semitic ideologies like white "nationalism" (more accurately called chauvinism) and nazism.
In opposing Zionism I don't think any left-wing (I'm a Marxist, Leninist and Trotskyist by the way) activist should block with people like the Nazis, Pat Buchanan etc. The reasons are a) its unprincipled and b) they don't oppose Zionism for persecuting and oppressing Palestinians they oppose it because they oppose Jews.
One thing really needs to be made clear that Judaism, the Jewish culture and the Jewish people are completely different from Zionism. The Jews are a race just like chinese, japanese, english, french, blacks, arabs, persians etc.
I think if you were to parralel the Israel-Palestine conflict with WW2 the Zionists would be most like the Nazis, the Palestians the Jews and the Jews the Germans. The Zionists have committed the same type of atrocities on the Palestians that the Nazis had committed on the Jews. The Palestinians the Jews because they both were/are persecuted in the same types of ways. And finally, the Jews would be like the Germans in the sense that they happen to be the same race as the Zionists (who committing the atrocities) but don't necessarily support Zionism. Some Jews support Zionism, others are opposed and others are neutral. Just like the Germans in Germany.
Another point to make is that not only is there the Zionist state of Israel persecuted and opressing Palestinians their is also Non-Palestian Arabs oppressing Palestians (ie the Hashimite dynasty in Jordan) as well the Israeli Bourgeoisie (ruling class and owners of capital, the means of production) oppressing the Israeli Proletariet (working class and producer of commodities). Leon Trotsky 09:32, 22 July 2005
"I really think the article on Zionism really needs to have an equally strong anti-zionist side" with that logic, the an article on France needs to have an "equally strong" anti-French prespective. Umm... no. It's an off topic attempt to introduce a POV. There IS an anti-Zionism article for that and it IS linked.
In addition the attempt to link to anti-Zionist sources is out of line. I removed the section on "anti-Zionist links" and I see the links have now been put back under the "Jewish denominations' view of Zionism" section. I will now remove them again. The webpage of political anti-Zionist groups are not Jewish denominations. In fact it's only one group, who regularly try to promote themselves using three different websites. In any case they are not denomination but part of the "Haredi (Ultra-Orthodox) Jews"... in general Ultra-Orthadox Jews are still Zionists. Can these people please stop trying to link the Zionism article to their anti-Zionist website! Oboler 18:12, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the previous posters about NPOV and I am going to try putting up an expanded NPOV flag. One example can of bias can be seen in describing the PLO, the Haganah, and the Irgun. Compare the two:
"The Palestine Liberation Organisation, created in 1965 as an Egyptian-controlled propaganda device, took on new life as an autonomous movement led by Yasser Arafat, and soon turned to terrorism as its principal means of struggle."
and
"Two military movements were founded, the Labor-dominated Haganah and the Revisionist Irgun. The latter group did not hesitate to take military action against the Arab population."
So not only was the PLO started as 'propoganda' (clearly a negative connotation) it uses 'terrorism' (again very negative connotation) for its struggle. However, the Irgun 'did not hesitate' (a positive connotation, in fact almost heroic) to use 'military action' (neutral, but in contrast to the terrorism of the PLO it seems rather positive).
So, I know there clearly others who believe the article to be a POV and I would like them to add other references.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.90.141.57 ( talk • contribs) 19:12, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The six million number is, and has, been in dispute which is the reference to 'supposed' because it is not completely accurate (it is not denial of the holocaust to merely deny a number as accurate). As well if you refer to the Holocaust entry you will see that of the six million number 2.9 million are to have died within the camps. Hence they were not actively 'killed' and they therefore 'died'. So, in effect, the edit is not to deny the Holocaust but rather for neutrality. As saying that a supposed (perhaps estimated would be better) six million died is actually making a neutral statement, because although some were killed others died. I feel the entry that was in question was put in that way on purpose so as to garner sympathy for Zionism, but then again so is alot of this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.90.141.57 ( talk • contribs) 19:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
It's not too suprising that the POV dispute was deleted within minutes. Thanks Wikipedia for being so objective, i'm glad you will never actually be regarded as a legitimate source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.90.141.57 ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure why Zionism is constantly beign called "ethnic nationalism." This is not a common differentiation in the academic community. In fact, in the 19th century, all nationalism was based on ethnicity, and Zionism was clearly a nationialistic movement, in the 19th century sense. Can someone give a source about "ethnic nationalism"? -- Goodoldpolonius2 14:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Goodoldpolonius2, you are confusing "Jews" with "Israelis". If Zionism was Israeli nationalism then you would have a point. And logically all those people who are calling for Israel to give Arab refugees citizenship are also Zionists. But that isn't the case, and there isn't an Israeli nationality. Israel is the Jewish state. Sovereignty belongs to the Jews only, by law. That is what Israel was created for. That is what a Zionist today supports. That is why calling for an Israeli nationality to include other ethnicities is considered anti-Zionism. If Zionism is civic-nationalism and patriotism then why don't Arab-Israelis celebrate Israel's independence day? And why don't Zionists celebrate the Arabs' Land Day?
But, talking about categories, it should be clear that there are also several forms of Zionism. You can talk about a religious Jewish Zionism, a cultural Hebrew Zionism, and also a secular ethnic Jewish Zionism, which have not always agreed. The article confuses these different currents of thought. (I notice Martin Buber is only mentioned in the Anti-Zionism section!)
My point is, to avoid confusion, the article should distinguish between ethnic Zionism and religious/cultural Zionism. --
Yodakii
11:47, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I changed some wording in the "Jewish reaction" section to clarify and correct the portrayal of the historical attitude of religious Jews. The previous wording was, at the very least, internally inconsistent in that it claimed that religious Jews held both that aliyah was a commandment and that it was a blasphemy.
Jay --
There have been on the order of 10 million Jews throughout the world over most of the period from the fall of the Second Temple to the beginning of modern Zionism; many of these Jews lived in the Middle East in areas (Yemen, e.g.) at least as inhospitable as the Israel region; most of the rest lived in Europe, where they were expelled en masse from different countries dozens of times. And over several hundred years, a few thousands made their way to Israel, with probably a majority of those doing so in relation to messianic movements that came to naught. This is a "surprisingly high" rate of aliyah? I would say that it would be more surprising that an act that was "obligatory when possible," as you claim aliyah was considered, would so broadly be avoided!
The whole section is written in a biased way -- "Zionism did not initially receive universal support from the world Jewish community...?" In fact, Zionism coes not currently receive universal support from the world Jewish community, and it never has! Initially, Zionism was broadly -- not "occasionally!" -- actively opposed by almost all religious Jewish groups. And yet this section is written as though Zionism has always been a mainstream Jewish position.
"Religious Jews believe ..." -- who has the authority to declare what religious Jews believe? This needs to be qualified in some way; it is very similar to the pronouncements from Neturei Karta that truly observant Jews oppose the existence of the State of Israel.
"... many religious Jews were not enthusiastic about Zionism before the 1930s ..." That's really not true in many ways, Jay -- most religious Jews were enthusiastic about Zionism: they were enthusiastically opposed to it! You may look to the online Jewish Encyclopedia to get a flavor of the early rabbinical attitude to Zionism.
I am going to use this space to suggest some fairly broad changes to the section, Jay, in order to give you a chance to comment. I hope we can agree on appropriate wording and emphasis. Right now, I think the section is profoundly misleading.
(Deletions within braces; additions italicized.)
(This, I strongly believe, is far more accurate than the original, and it improves the wording.) Marsden 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
(This removes the categorical description of religious Jews and more clearly indicates that Zionism was opposed by most Jewish religious factions. Also, it introduces the small matter of messianism that most groups attached to the Israel matter as well as the "religion of ideas" track of the more liberal groups.) Marsden 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
(This is more descriptive than the original, and I think it accurately captures the underlying Zionist-ic sentiment of diaspora Judaism without suggesting that very many Jews were actively planning on living in Israel any time soon.)
I'll give you an opportunity, Jay, to complain about my proposed changes to the first paragraph before I continue. Marsden 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Do I dare infer that the last sentence was agreeable? Marsden 18:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Where I think we stand:
How does that look to you? Marsden 00:40, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
How about this:
Thoughts? Jayjg (talk) 05:17, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to replace the paragraph with Jay's version, less the word "imminent." We can further haggle from there. A lot of this article seems to have been ruined by editing -- the first sentence frankly sucks, not so much for content but because it is such an outrageous run-on sentence that it is painful to read. I think I will make re-writing the whole thing a side project for myself. Marsden 14:26, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
The deleted text was:
It is already acknowledged that "few" (and certainly none of the people mentioned in the paragraph) are arguing for the "eventuality" (resettlement of the existing Jewish population of modern-day Israel). So the question of "viable alternatives" does not arise. Brian Tvedt 11:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Something -- probably a series of editing wars -- has turned a lot of this article to crap. I mean, above and beyond any content issues, a lot of it has become ill-legible. I am stupid enough to take it upon myself to do a major clean-up.
However, there are immediately things that stick in my craw. Number one, Zionism is not a "Jewish political movement;" it is a point of view. Specifically, it is a point of view that supports political control of part or all of the historical Land of Israel by the Jewish people. Many of the people holding this point of view are Jewish, and many of them have organized into various political movements aimed at realizing the goal of Zionism. But first and foremost, and tautologically, it is a point of view.
I propose that the term "Zionism" be used always to mean a point of view; if political movements in the direction of Zionism are to be discussed, they can be refered to collectively as "the Zionist Movement," or individually as "Zionist organizations."
I would also like to use this space to hash out an outline of what should be included in the re-written article, and (as importantly) what should be excluded.
Comments? Marsden 00:10, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Wow, Marsden, I really appreciate the condescending attitude without any basis whatsoever except that you seem to have no sources to cite. Right out of the box, you make discussions very unpleasant, and you are not winning any points on Wikipedia.
On to the meat of the matter, you ignore my point about the very WordNet definition you invoked, you dismiss the OED definition out of hand, you don't address Vital, and you call Goldscheider and Zuckerman "irrelevant" for no good reason. I appreciate your Atlantic Monthly article from 1919 attacking Zionism as being transitory, and the fact that your "source is the English language" (folk entymology is rarely a good basis for a definition) but I am not sure how that addresses any of the modern, scholarly definitions I have given you. Your work is simply original research unless you have some sort of reputable source. Zionism is an Jewish political movement that contains within it many different competing factions and ideologies about how its goal (the establishment of a Jewish homeland in at least part of Zion) would be achieved, and which continues today in support of Israel, and it is not at all unusual for movements to have many factions (take a look at the Democrats, Republicans, or Likud) Of course a longing for return to the lands of Zion existed before Zionism, but Zionism has a specific name and meaning, a history, organizations, etc. You cannot bestow a wider label just because you want to, Zionism really has a provinance outside of your own vision. The definition that starts the article is accurate and supported (and clear!), your definition (Zionism is a point of view) is not. I think there is room to compromise around the term "ideology," however since I would agree that Zionism refers to both a Jewish political movement started in the 19th century, and the ideology it supported and spawned, but that doesn't seem to be what you are aiming for.
Would anyone else like to weigh in here, because I am fairly sure that Marsden will continue to insult me, and not engage any of the information I present, because it contradicts his POV. I am happy to go with consensus, if the majority of editors think I am wrong, but I would like to see some sources supporting an alternative definition. -- Goodoldpolonius2 04:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Moving on ...
A draft of what I think the article should open with:
A BIG omission in the current article, I think, is a statement of the competing claims to Palestine, which probably would best fit in the "Zionism and the Arabs" section. I also think an "Other Reactions" after the "Jewish Reaction to Zionism" section would be good. This could probably supplant the "Non-Jewish Zionism" section and permit a "hostorical progression" look at the matter. Marsden 14:40, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I think my version is more concise and reads much better. A lot of what you include in your first paragraph (and that is in the current first paragraph) is historiography that doesn't, in my opinion, belong there. The first paragraph of an encyclopedia entry should explain, for someone who has never heard of the entry item before, what it is. For Zionism, obviously the most important thing is its position on Jewish control of the Land of Israel; in this respect, your first two sentences are unwieldy.
I'm sorry to see that you remain wrong in your understanding of the relative importance of the ideology of Zionism. ;) Marsden 16:11, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I understand your point, but my main objection remains that introducing a split between Zionism as a point of view Zionism-as-a-movement is arbitrary, and that it creates a big problem. It relegates the most common definition of Zionism, the political movement, to a sub-definition or an expression of an ideology. This is not supported by the evidence, as Zionism refers primarily and mostly to the movement, and other meanings spring from it. Take a look at the Jewish Agency's Zionism timeline or the Israeli MFA's 100 years of Zionism. All use Zionism to refer to the movement, and so should we. Perhaps a solution is to acknowledge the yearning for Zion and early rabbinical movements as distinct from Zionism, just as the Jewish Agency does, calling them "forerunners of Zionism" [2]. If you do want to maintain that we should use the word "Zionism" to refer to an state of mind that existed before the 19th century, I still would like to see it explicitly used that way in a few reputible sources as the major meaning. As for the state of Zionism today, it is more of an ideology than a movement, but I think the current introduction tries to say that after 1948, the movement changed.
In summary, I suggest that we have three periods, as does the Jewish Agency, WZO, and many other writers on the topic: "Forerunners of Zionism," "Zionism" (the movement, with all of its splinters and arguments), "post-1948 Zionism." Does this help at all? -- Goodoldpolonius2 04:23, 3 September 2005 (UTC)