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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Simon, I agree with RK's removal of the link to a letter to Guardian. It's non-neutral and way too specialised for an encyclopaedia article, nor do I find it illuminating or interesting. -- AV
AV: Of course it's not neutral; it's not meant to be. Right before it come two opinion pieces, one by a Jordanian saying that "Zionism is Racism", the other from an American Christian saying that "to say 'Zionism is Racism' is itself Racism'". I was just collecting a diversity of opinions on the issue, and I found the letter to be sucinct and eloquent, whether it is right or wrong. Anyone who wants to add more opinion pieces commentary found on the WWW is more than welcome to. -- Simon J Kissane
AV -- Censorship is bad for Wikipedia. Since it's not paper, it can afford to have "insignificant" information. It should emphasize important information. But note that SJK clearly thought that there was enough value in the link to include it. To remove someone else's work on Wikipedia is an act of arrogance--sometimes correct, but always arrogant. I believe that well-meaning censorship is what will kill Wikipedia in the long run if it's not carefully discouraged. Contextualize, don't delete.
That said, I don't think that the letter was elegant, as SJK characterized it. It was pretty boring.--TheCunctator
I still don't think it desirable to have such "insignificant" links in Wikipedia articles. My problem with them isn't the constraint of space; it's the fact that they add too little information for the attention they require. Suppose I insert an external link in the Chess entry to a small description of some second-rate tournament held in my home town every year. It's also information about chess; should it be allowed to go there? I hope my point is clearer now. -- AV
RK: You said "(Wait - NO country's constituion allows for a democratic popular vote to overturn it. One could make this claim about any provision of any country's constitution. Israel's constitution, like that of other countries, needs a special process to be amended.)". You seem to misunderstand the Israeli legislation. It doesn't just say that a special process is necessary to change Israel's constitutional change as a Jewish state; it says that any party ADVOCATING such a change is ineligible to stand for election. It denies the right for Israeli citizens who disagree with that aspect of its constitution from organising a party and standing for election to the Knesset. That is more than just constitutional entrenchment; that is being totally undemocratic. -- Simon J Kissane
Firstly, I was refering to its legal status, not its demographic makeup. Secondly, I never said the law couldn't be ammended; I merely said the law as it now stands is undemocratic. Finally, even if it has not been put in effect, what is it doing there in the first place? Surely section 7a(1) would not have been inserted if at least some intended to use it? Even if in practice no one is affected by the legislation, it shouldn't be there to start with. Even if not a single Israeli wants to stand for election on a platform of opposing Israel's status as a Jewish state, they still should be allowed to do so. So what I said was competely accurate. -- SJK.
I changed the paragraph in question to attempt to fairly present this criticism. I added the context of Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East, which seems relevant to most of the important questions about democracy and Zionism and the right of the Israel state to exist, and also pointed out that the very next line of the criticized line seems to be in defense of democracy.
I deleted Ireland from the list of countries with ethnically preferential immigration laws, because as I understand it applies to all ethnic and religious groups, so long as your parent or grandparent was born in Ireland -- be they an Celtic Catholic or an Asian Muslim. It also only lasts for two generations -- I am over half-Irish, but I am not eligble for Irish citizenship AFAIK because I only have great grandparents born in Ireland, not parents or grandparents.
Question from Jimbo: My wife's grandmother is Irish and we are looking into getting Irish citizenship jut for the fun of it. I'm not any religion at all, but they don't care about that. If my grandmother were born in Israel, would I be offered Israeli citizenship? Would I be asked about my faith? If so, I would honestly answer that I am not of the Jewish faith. Would this prevent me from getting a citizenship? If so, then this appears to be relevantly different from other countries and a possibly valid critical point to raise about Zionism. -- Jimbo Wales
Also someone wrote "the right of the Israel state to exist". The question of Israel's right to exist is entirely separate from the question of its status as a Jewish state. Not all Israelis are Jews. -- SJK
SJK, you're right on this point, and the article should be changed to reflect it. Precision is especially important since things get someone subtle. Zionism is not about the right of *some* state to exist in the area, but that specifically the Israel state to exist *as the Jewish homeland*, whatever that may mean. Will you make that change?-- Jimbo Wales
Someone asked: What is the relevance of section 7a(2) here?
This is in reference to this paragraph: Although Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, some have been critical of aspects of that democracy. For example, Israel's laws ban from standing from election all parties which have as a goal "the negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people." (Basic Law: The Knesset, section 7a(1)). But the same section 7a(2) of the Basic Law also bans from standing all parties which have as a goal the "negation of the democratic character of the State".
I think the relevance is that we are listing a criticism of Israeli democracy based on 7a(1). I think that in order to be balanced, we need to recognize that 7a(2), immediately following 7a(1) is exactly the same type of ban, but in defense of democracy. It strikes me that in a literal sense, 7a(1) and 7a(2) are contradictory and both are relevant to the question at hand. (One wonders how a constitutional literalist might answer a question about a hypothetical political party which runs on a platform that 7a(2) ought to be enforced more vigorously. Is that anti-democratic, thus invoking 7a(3)?)
I don't think that Wikipedia is the place to answer such thorny constitutional issues. :-) So we have to look to give a balanced presentation, and omitting mention of the pro-democratic nature of 7a as a whole would be unbalanced.
I strongly disagree with this talk of a "Jewish nationality" as being somehow distinct from Jewish ethnicity or religion. Nationality is membership in a nation. A nation (in the relevant sense) is a group united by language, culture, race, ethnicity, religion, etc. But by that definition it is wrong to say Jewishness isn't an ethnicity/religion, its a "nationality", since a nationality is the same thing as an ethnicity or relgiion. (There is another definition of nationality, which is a legal relationship with a state; but there is no state all Jews have or have had a legal relationship with.) So the Law of Return still constitutes ethnic and religious discrimination; claiming it is based on "Jewish nationality" doesn't make it any different.
Article says:
But how do you define the "Jewish nationality"? Under the Rabbinical definition, a Jew who becomes a Christian is still a Jew. Thus by the Rabbinical definition Rufeisen had "Jewish nationality". And if "Jewish nationality" is distinct from religion, how could become a Christian have been a rejection of his "Jewish nationality"? Unless "Jewish nationality" is no different from Judaism, in which case the law makes perfect sense, and in which case it still constitutes religious discrimination.
Article says:
AFAIK, Hitler didn't care if someone had converted. He viewed Jews in racial terms, and so he persecuted them no matter what religion they practiced. Whatever its historical origins, Nazi antisemitism had nothing to do with Christianity. --SJK
Jews don't allow Adolph Hitler to define who is, and who is not, a Jew. No Jew cares a whit about his definition of Judaism, let alone his definitions of anything else. Secondly, Nazi anti-Semitism explicitly was hinged on traditional German Christianity; it would literally have been impossible for the Germans to have created the Holocaust without centuries of Jew-hatred taught by German's Catholic and Lutheran Churches. A huge number of Germans were Lutheran Christians. The massively influential Christian leader Martin Luther explicitly and literally taught that Jews are Satanic monsters that should be burned alive in the homes and synagogues. (This was backed up by the New Testament, which refers to all Jews as the spawn of Satan/the Devil). This is what the Nazi literature promoted, and they got away with it because they were correct: It was a normative Christian teaching among many, many Christians. And Luther's demands are what many of the Chrisitians of Germany actually did
Ok, the paragraph became a mess. I propose to re-write it like this:
Although Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, some have been critical of aspects of that democracy. For example, the Israel Basic Law: The Knesset states that:
Section 7a Prevention of Participation of Candidates List A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following:
- negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people;
- negation of the democratic character of the State;
- incitement to racism.
Some have been critical of section 7a(1), since it is represents only the Jewish people, and not other citizens of the state. However, Section 7a(1) has never been applied so far to any contender in the parliamentary elections, nor is it likely to be applied in the near future. In addition, Sections 7a(2) and 7a(3) are explicitly supportive of democracy.
Do you agree? -- Uriyan
The original issue involving mentioning 7a(1) was not "Is Israel democratic?" but "Does Israel give special status to its Jewish citizens over its non-Jewish citizens?". Democracy isn't the issue in this context (discussion of the relationship between Zionism and racism), it is rather an illustration of the broader issue. Saying "In addition, Sections 7a(2) and 7a(3) are explicitly supportive of democracy" isn't exactly, relevant, since that isn't the issue.
I think "only democracy" might be better replaced by "most democratic country". Israel's democracy is far from perfect, and some other Middle East states are democratic to an extent. For example, Iran has elections, and although candidates are subject to approval by the religious establishment, the system still manages in practice to represent a wide range of political opinion (i.e. both conservatives and reformists). Jordan has largely democratic elections, though the Jordanian parliament doesn't have that much real power. So while Iran and Jordan aren't as democratic as Israel, it's not like all Middle Eastern countries except for Israel are dictatorships. It's a matter of degree.
Secondly, a far more common complaint about Israeli democracy than section 7a(1) is the fact that Palestinians in the occupied territories can't vote for the government which has ultimate power over them. (They can vote for the PA, but the powers of the PA are limited.) -- SJK
Someone well-informed should take up the citizenship stub (we already have an entry on Lex solis, though not for Lex sanguinis, both of which are germane) and explain that the ideas and practices of citizenship are neither simple nor uncontested in either history or contemporary practice. To identify 'a criticism' of Israeli democracy as though it is earth shattering is to neglect all the other elective governments of the world, all of which have their citizenship oddities. This article, like everything else involving the region, seems to be moving in smaller and smaller circles of less and less interest to that wonderful mythical beast The General Reader. --MichaelTinkler
Michael: Well, there is an article on nationality, and if you think I'm being picky about Israel you obviously haven't read my contribution on British Nationality Law. (How much interest to the general reader has that article got?) I think the US, British and Australian citizenship laws (ignoring all the other non-"British citizen" nationalities in the UK law, and section 17 of the Australian Citizenship Act 1948, which partially prohibits multiple nationality but which thankfully is in the process of being repealed) are pretty free from oddities. Most continental European laws, by contrast, are a awful. -- SJK
Since the point I had originally tried to make below had been edited into something else not really relevant to the issue, and since Uriyan convinced me that its of no practical import, at least at present, I've decided to excise the below:
Although Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, some have been critical of aspects of that democracy. For example, the Israel Basic Law: The Knesset states that:
Section 7a: Prevention of Participation of Candidates List
A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following:
- negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people;
- negation of the democratic character of the State;
- incitement to racism.
-- SJK Some have been critical of section 7a(1), since it is represents only the Jewish people, and not other citizens of the state. However, Section 7a(1) has never been applied so far to any contender in the parliamentary elections, nor is it likely to be applied in the near future. In addition, Sections 7a(2) and 7a(3) are explicitly supportive of democracy.
I've revised the section about Rufeisen, explained the chronolgy of the Law of Return etc. Note that the Israeli Supreme Court has given an explanation to its verdict, and that Rufeisen was eventually naturalized. -- Uriyan.
Arab states are even more restrictive on becoming a citizen than Israel; in fact, some of them outlaw the immigration of Jews outright, which is clearly bigotry. Many of them outlaw Jews as being members of the government, which is clearly anti-Semitic. Similarly, some of them outlaw Christians being members of their governments. Isn't this religious persecution?So how come there is no corresponding discussion on whether these Arab states are racist or bigoted in their respective Wikipedia entries? I would think that NPOV would be served by making this analysis impartial, instead of only being in the entry on Israel. Maybe some text could be worked out. RK
I removed/changed the following statements:
As early as during the 1880s, the Muslim and Christians appealed to the Ottoman government to limited Jewish immigration. The reason was among other things the Zionist practice of buying up land especially from absentee landlords and evicting the tenants.
The page was changed to claim that (a) Herzl was the inventor of Zionism (b) Herzl had some ideology, which his followers interprted as settling in Palestine or elsewhere. Both of these statements are not true. First, Herzl was not the inventor of Zionism, but a skillful administrator, who brought together Zionists from all over the world into the first Zionist Congress. Secondly, Herzl's role in Zionism was not an ideological one, but was merely a moderator and participant in the Congress, and when it declined the Uganda Proposal, he accepted that. -- Uriyan
Ed Poor changed the statement about how long Jews have hoped for a return to Zion. It used to say 1900 years, but he changed this to say "centuries", which is a significant understatement. I do not know why this has been changed, but it is off by literally an order of magnitude. The hope for a return to the land of Zion is two milennia old, not centuries. That is why I have changed his change. RK
At that time the Jews claimed that the area belonged to them because they had lived there for some time. The Jews rose against the stronger Romans in a campaign that included terrorism and other forms of asymmetric warfare.
Amendment Number 9 was what introduced Article 7a, which both me and SJK have previously decided to be irrelevant to the article as whole. Also, anyone with a clue in Israeli politics would know that the law does not forbid forming a party that would re-define Israel as the state of all its citizens (it is considered a legitimate approach, and it is a part of the agenda of Meretz and the Arabic country); the only thing that a party may not do is to deny Israel's existence as the state of the Jewish people (the term, by the way, was never even defined in the Israeli legislation so it's next to unusable - unless of course your agenda is pushing all Jews to the sea). -- Uri
Ah also, a point to ponder about. My high school textbook for Citizenship lists several concepts for the nature of the state of Israel, including "State of all citizens" that are all declared equal and legitimate (it's not unique to the book, state exams written by Ministry of Education mean all books must include this classification). In other parts of the book, the importance of democracy, equality etc. are supported by quotes from not only modern Western and traditional Jewish sources, but also from Christian and Muslim sources. One photo (taken at the Oasis of Peace during Hillary Clinton's visit) displays Jewish and Arab children standing together. -- Uri
I propose to change a sentence in the second paragraph under the heading "Political Zionism". The original sentence is as follows: "As defined by the documents and practices of Zionists over the past century, what Zionism means in practice is that Israel is Jewish in much the same was that Italy is Italian, or that Ireland is Irish." The problem that I have with the above sentence is that the goal of the latter part (comparing the make-up of the Israeli population with that of other countries in order to clarify the make-up of the Israeli population) is not met. In my opinion this goal is not met because there is a comparison of opposing types of population.
For the rest of my argument I shall simply use Italians/Italy as representative of the people/country that Jews/Israel is being compared to. To have a valid comparison, one would have to compare Israelis/Israel with Italians/Italy, as being Italian is defined as being a citizen of Italy, and being Israeli is defined as being a citizen of Israel. This comparison however is meaningless, as it tells us something that we obviously already know. We wanted to clarify the position of the ethnic group "Jews" within the state of Israel. We can therefore, to underline my previous point, not compare Jews with Italians, as one is an ethnicity (and/or a religion) and the other is a nationality. We have to compare "Jews"/"Israel" with another "ethnicity"/"country where the previous ethnicity is dominant". The example that comes to my mind is Arab/Saudi Arabia (Or any other such country). I can't think of any other at this moment, perhaps someone has got a suggestion for a second comparative group. Please tell me what you think of this suggestion, giving a clear explanation of why you are either for or against such an alteration. Thanks. -- snoyes 05:27 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)
Removed the statement that Jabotinsky supported the removal of the Arab population. Actually, Jabotinsky wrote about a presidential system of government for the Jewish state he envisioned, with a Jewish president and an Arab vice-president. There are many reasons to be critical of Jabotinsky (and of Zionism), but let's keep the criticisms real--not imaginary. Danny 05:13 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
Does somebody know more about the Manchukuo project? I never knew if it was ever more than a piece of paper on a Tokyo desk. -- Error
Stuff on 'abstract zionism' was initially removed by Anome (for a good reason, it failed the google test) but if you read the article (and the article on abstract zionism which has also been modified to take account of Anome's criticism) you can see why it went back in (in much improved form, so all credit to Anome for that). user:ericross
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Simon, I agree with RK's removal of the link to a letter to Guardian. It's non-neutral and way too specialised for an encyclopaedia article, nor do I find it illuminating or interesting. -- AV
AV: Of course it's not neutral; it's not meant to be. Right before it come two opinion pieces, one by a Jordanian saying that "Zionism is Racism", the other from an American Christian saying that "to say 'Zionism is Racism' is itself Racism'". I was just collecting a diversity of opinions on the issue, and I found the letter to be sucinct and eloquent, whether it is right or wrong. Anyone who wants to add more opinion pieces commentary found on the WWW is more than welcome to. -- Simon J Kissane
AV -- Censorship is bad for Wikipedia. Since it's not paper, it can afford to have "insignificant" information. It should emphasize important information. But note that SJK clearly thought that there was enough value in the link to include it. To remove someone else's work on Wikipedia is an act of arrogance--sometimes correct, but always arrogant. I believe that well-meaning censorship is what will kill Wikipedia in the long run if it's not carefully discouraged. Contextualize, don't delete.
That said, I don't think that the letter was elegant, as SJK characterized it. It was pretty boring.--TheCunctator
I still don't think it desirable to have such "insignificant" links in Wikipedia articles. My problem with them isn't the constraint of space; it's the fact that they add too little information for the attention they require. Suppose I insert an external link in the Chess entry to a small description of some second-rate tournament held in my home town every year. It's also information about chess; should it be allowed to go there? I hope my point is clearer now. -- AV
RK: You said "(Wait - NO country's constituion allows for a democratic popular vote to overturn it. One could make this claim about any provision of any country's constitution. Israel's constitution, like that of other countries, needs a special process to be amended.)". You seem to misunderstand the Israeli legislation. It doesn't just say that a special process is necessary to change Israel's constitutional change as a Jewish state; it says that any party ADVOCATING such a change is ineligible to stand for election. It denies the right for Israeli citizens who disagree with that aspect of its constitution from organising a party and standing for election to the Knesset. That is more than just constitutional entrenchment; that is being totally undemocratic. -- Simon J Kissane
Firstly, I was refering to its legal status, not its demographic makeup. Secondly, I never said the law couldn't be ammended; I merely said the law as it now stands is undemocratic. Finally, even if it has not been put in effect, what is it doing there in the first place? Surely section 7a(1) would not have been inserted if at least some intended to use it? Even if in practice no one is affected by the legislation, it shouldn't be there to start with. Even if not a single Israeli wants to stand for election on a platform of opposing Israel's status as a Jewish state, they still should be allowed to do so. So what I said was competely accurate. -- SJK.
I changed the paragraph in question to attempt to fairly present this criticism. I added the context of Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East, which seems relevant to most of the important questions about democracy and Zionism and the right of the Israel state to exist, and also pointed out that the very next line of the criticized line seems to be in defense of democracy.
I deleted Ireland from the list of countries with ethnically preferential immigration laws, because as I understand it applies to all ethnic and religious groups, so long as your parent or grandparent was born in Ireland -- be they an Celtic Catholic or an Asian Muslim. It also only lasts for two generations -- I am over half-Irish, but I am not eligble for Irish citizenship AFAIK because I only have great grandparents born in Ireland, not parents or grandparents.
Question from Jimbo: My wife's grandmother is Irish and we are looking into getting Irish citizenship jut for the fun of it. I'm not any religion at all, but they don't care about that. If my grandmother were born in Israel, would I be offered Israeli citizenship? Would I be asked about my faith? If so, I would honestly answer that I am not of the Jewish faith. Would this prevent me from getting a citizenship? If so, then this appears to be relevantly different from other countries and a possibly valid critical point to raise about Zionism. -- Jimbo Wales
Also someone wrote "the right of the Israel state to exist". The question of Israel's right to exist is entirely separate from the question of its status as a Jewish state. Not all Israelis are Jews. -- SJK
SJK, you're right on this point, and the article should be changed to reflect it. Precision is especially important since things get someone subtle. Zionism is not about the right of *some* state to exist in the area, but that specifically the Israel state to exist *as the Jewish homeland*, whatever that may mean. Will you make that change?-- Jimbo Wales
Someone asked: What is the relevance of section 7a(2) here?
This is in reference to this paragraph: Although Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, some have been critical of aspects of that democracy. For example, Israel's laws ban from standing from election all parties which have as a goal "the negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people." (Basic Law: The Knesset, section 7a(1)). But the same section 7a(2) of the Basic Law also bans from standing all parties which have as a goal the "negation of the democratic character of the State".
I think the relevance is that we are listing a criticism of Israeli democracy based on 7a(1). I think that in order to be balanced, we need to recognize that 7a(2), immediately following 7a(1) is exactly the same type of ban, but in defense of democracy. It strikes me that in a literal sense, 7a(1) and 7a(2) are contradictory and both are relevant to the question at hand. (One wonders how a constitutional literalist might answer a question about a hypothetical political party which runs on a platform that 7a(2) ought to be enforced more vigorously. Is that anti-democratic, thus invoking 7a(3)?)
I don't think that Wikipedia is the place to answer such thorny constitutional issues. :-) So we have to look to give a balanced presentation, and omitting mention of the pro-democratic nature of 7a as a whole would be unbalanced.
I strongly disagree with this talk of a "Jewish nationality" as being somehow distinct from Jewish ethnicity or religion. Nationality is membership in a nation. A nation (in the relevant sense) is a group united by language, culture, race, ethnicity, religion, etc. But by that definition it is wrong to say Jewishness isn't an ethnicity/religion, its a "nationality", since a nationality is the same thing as an ethnicity or relgiion. (There is another definition of nationality, which is a legal relationship with a state; but there is no state all Jews have or have had a legal relationship with.) So the Law of Return still constitutes ethnic and religious discrimination; claiming it is based on "Jewish nationality" doesn't make it any different.
Article says:
But how do you define the "Jewish nationality"? Under the Rabbinical definition, a Jew who becomes a Christian is still a Jew. Thus by the Rabbinical definition Rufeisen had "Jewish nationality". And if "Jewish nationality" is distinct from religion, how could become a Christian have been a rejection of his "Jewish nationality"? Unless "Jewish nationality" is no different from Judaism, in which case the law makes perfect sense, and in which case it still constitutes religious discrimination.
Article says:
AFAIK, Hitler didn't care if someone had converted. He viewed Jews in racial terms, and so he persecuted them no matter what religion they practiced. Whatever its historical origins, Nazi antisemitism had nothing to do with Christianity. --SJK
Jews don't allow Adolph Hitler to define who is, and who is not, a Jew. No Jew cares a whit about his definition of Judaism, let alone his definitions of anything else. Secondly, Nazi anti-Semitism explicitly was hinged on traditional German Christianity; it would literally have been impossible for the Germans to have created the Holocaust without centuries of Jew-hatred taught by German's Catholic and Lutheran Churches. A huge number of Germans were Lutheran Christians. The massively influential Christian leader Martin Luther explicitly and literally taught that Jews are Satanic monsters that should be burned alive in the homes and synagogues. (This was backed up by the New Testament, which refers to all Jews as the spawn of Satan/the Devil). This is what the Nazi literature promoted, and they got away with it because they were correct: It was a normative Christian teaching among many, many Christians. And Luther's demands are what many of the Chrisitians of Germany actually did
Ok, the paragraph became a mess. I propose to re-write it like this:
Although Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, some have been critical of aspects of that democracy. For example, the Israel Basic Law: The Knesset states that:
Section 7a Prevention of Participation of Candidates List A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following:
- negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people;
- negation of the democratic character of the State;
- incitement to racism.
Some have been critical of section 7a(1), since it is represents only the Jewish people, and not other citizens of the state. However, Section 7a(1) has never been applied so far to any contender in the parliamentary elections, nor is it likely to be applied in the near future. In addition, Sections 7a(2) and 7a(3) are explicitly supportive of democracy.
Do you agree? -- Uriyan
The original issue involving mentioning 7a(1) was not "Is Israel democratic?" but "Does Israel give special status to its Jewish citizens over its non-Jewish citizens?". Democracy isn't the issue in this context (discussion of the relationship between Zionism and racism), it is rather an illustration of the broader issue. Saying "In addition, Sections 7a(2) and 7a(3) are explicitly supportive of democracy" isn't exactly, relevant, since that isn't the issue.
I think "only democracy" might be better replaced by "most democratic country". Israel's democracy is far from perfect, and some other Middle East states are democratic to an extent. For example, Iran has elections, and although candidates are subject to approval by the religious establishment, the system still manages in practice to represent a wide range of political opinion (i.e. both conservatives and reformists). Jordan has largely democratic elections, though the Jordanian parliament doesn't have that much real power. So while Iran and Jordan aren't as democratic as Israel, it's not like all Middle Eastern countries except for Israel are dictatorships. It's a matter of degree.
Secondly, a far more common complaint about Israeli democracy than section 7a(1) is the fact that Palestinians in the occupied territories can't vote for the government which has ultimate power over them. (They can vote for the PA, but the powers of the PA are limited.) -- SJK
Someone well-informed should take up the citizenship stub (we already have an entry on Lex solis, though not for Lex sanguinis, both of which are germane) and explain that the ideas and practices of citizenship are neither simple nor uncontested in either history or contemporary practice. To identify 'a criticism' of Israeli democracy as though it is earth shattering is to neglect all the other elective governments of the world, all of which have their citizenship oddities. This article, like everything else involving the region, seems to be moving in smaller and smaller circles of less and less interest to that wonderful mythical beast The General Reader. --MichaelTinkler
Michael: Well, there is an article on nationality, and if you think I'm being picky about Israel you obviously haven't read my contribution on British Nationality Law. (How much interest to the general reader has that article got?) I think the US, British and Australian citizenship laws (ignoring all the other non-"British citizen" nationalities in the UK law, and section 17 of the Australian Citizenship Act 1948, which partially prohibits multiple nationality but which thankfully is in the process of being repealed) are pretty free from oddities. Most continental European laws, by contrast, are a awful. -- SJK
Since the point I had originally tried to make below had been edited into something else not really relevant to the issue, and since Uriyan convinced me that its of no practical import, at least at present, I've decided to excise the below:
Although Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, some have been critical of aspects of that democracy. For example, the Israel Basic Law: The Knesset states that:
Section 7a: Prevention of Participation of Candidates List
A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following:
- negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people;
- negation of the democratic character of the State;
- incitement to racism.
-- SJK Some have been critical of section 7a(1), since it is represents only the Jewish people, and not other citizens of the state. However, Section 7a(1) has never been applied so far to any contender in the parliamentary elections, nor is it likely to be applied in the near future. In addition, Sections 7a(2) and 7a(3) are explicitly supportive of democracy.
I've revised the section about Rufeisen, explained the chronolgy of the Law of Return etc. Note that the Israeli Supreme Court has given an explanation to its verdict, and that Rufeisen was eventually naturalized. -- Uriyan.
Arab states are even more restrictive on becoming a citizen than Israel; in fact, some of them outlaw the immigration of Jews outright, which is clearly bigotry. Many of them outlaw Jews as being members of the government, which is clearly anti-Semitic. Similarly, some of them outlaw Christians being members of their governments. Isn't this religious persecution?So how come there is no corresponding discussion on whether these Arab states are racist or bigoted in their respective Wikipedia entries? I would think that NPOV would be served by making this analysis impartial, instead of only being in the entry on Israel. Maybe some text could be worked out. RK
I removed/changed the following statements:
As early as during the 1880s, the Muslim and Christians appealed to the Ottoman government to limited Jewish immigration. The reason was among other things the Zionist practice of buying up land especially from absentee landlords and evicting the tenants.
The page was changed to claim that (a) Herzl was the inventor of Zionism (b) Herzl had some ideology, which his followers interprted as settling in Palestine or elsewhere. Both of these statements are not true. First, Herzl was not the inventor of Zionism, but a skillful administrator, who brought together Zionists from all over the world into the first Zionist Congress. Secondly, Herzl's role in Zionism was not an ideological one, but was merely a moderator and participant in the Congress, and when it declined the Uganda Proposal, he accepted that. -- Uriyan
Ed Poor changed the statement about how long Jews have hoped for a return to Zion. It used to say 1900 years, but he changed this to say "centuries", which is a significant understatement. I do not know why this has been changed, but it is off by literally an order of magnitude. The hope for a return to the land of Zion is two milennia old, not centuries. That is why I have changed his change. RK
At that time the Jews claimed that the area belonged to them because they had lived there for some time. The Jews rose against the stronger Romans in a campaign that included terrorism and other forms of asymmetric warfare.
Amendment Number 9 was what introduced Article 7a, which both me and SJK have previously decided to be irrelevant to the article as whole. Also, anyone with a clue in Israeli politics would know that the law does not forbid forming a party that would re-define Israel as the state of all its citizens (it is considered a legitimate approach, and it is a part of the agenda of Meretz and the Arabic country); the only thing that a party may not do is to deny Israel's existence as the state of the Jewish people (the term, by the way, was never even defined in the Israeli legislation so it's next to unusable - unless of course your agenda is pushing all Jews to the sea). -- Uri
Ah also, a point to ponder about. My high school textbook for Citizenship lists several concepts for the nature of the state of Israel, including "State of all citizens" that are all declared equal and legitimate (it's not unique to the book, state exams written by Ministry of Education mean all books must include this classification). In other parts of the book, the importance of democracy, equality etc. are supported by quotes from not only modern Western and traditional Jewish sources, but also from Christian and Muslim sources. One photo (taken at the Oasis of Peace during Hillary Clinton's visit) displays Jewish and Arab children standing together. -- Uri
I propose to change a sentence in the second paragraph under the heading "Political Zionism". The original sentence is as follows: "As defined by the documents and practices of Zionists over the past century, what Zionism means in practice is that Israel is Jewish in much the same was that Italy is Italian, or that Ireland is Irish." The problem that I have with the above sentence is that the goal of the latter part (comparing the make-up of the Israeli population with that of other countries in order to clarify the make-up of the Israeli population) is not met. In my opinion this goal is not met because there is a comparison of opposing types of population.
For the rest of my argument I shall simply use Italians/Italy as representative of the people/country that Jews/Israel is being compared to. To have a valid comparison, one would have to compare Israelis/Israel with Italians/Italy, as being Italian is defined as being a citizen of Italy, and being Israeli is defined as being a citizen of Israel. This comparison however is meaningless, as it tells us something that we obviously already know. We wanted to clarify the position of the ethnic group "Jews" within the state of Israel. We can therefore, to underline my previous point, not compare Jews with Italians, as one is an ethnicity (and/or a religion) and the other is a nationality. We have to compare "Jews"/"Israel" with another "ethnicity"/"country where the previous ethnicity is dominant". The example that comes to my mind is Arab/Saudi Arabia (Or any other such country). I can't think of any other at this moment, perhaps someone has got a suggestion for a second comparative group. Please tell me what you think of this suggestion, giving a clear explanation of why you are either for or against such an alteration. Thanks. -- snoyes 05:27 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)
Removed the statement that Jabotinsky supported the removal of the Arab population. Actually, Jabotinsky wrote about a presidential system of government for the Jewish state he envisioned, with a Jewish president and an Arab vice-president. There are many reasons to be critical of Jabotinsky (and of Zionism), but let's keep the criticisms real--not imaginary. Danny 05:13 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
Does somebody know more about the Manchukuo project? I never knew if it was ever more than a piece of paper on a Tokyo desk. -- Error
Stuff on 'abstract zionism' was initially removed by Anome (for a good reason, it failed the google test) but if you read the article (and the article on abstract zionism which has also been modified to take account of Anome's criticism) you can see why it went back in (in much improved form, so all credit to Anome for that). user:ericross