This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Zina D. H. Young article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on January 31, 2021. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
Wikimedia Foundation's
Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see
WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see
WP:COIRESPONSE.
|
The quote by Brigham Young cited in the Hall source was removed. Hall is the only one to have it recorded it. It does not seem like a very reliable source of information, since there are no other records that indicate that Brigham Young said that.
See http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_Did_Brigham_Young_tell_Henry_Jacobs_in_front_of_hundreds_of_people_that_he_needed_to_find_another_wife%3F Amgisseman(BYU) ( talk) 17:01, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
A couple of questions I have from reading this article.
I would love to see these points clarified. Great article, nonetheless. Jgardner 21:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Keep in mind I'm working from just a couple of LDS Church sources here, and she is a "woman," so many of the details are vague. I know there is at least one full length biography published but I haven't tracked it down yet. So, from what I know --
The role of women in the early church is a fascinating topic and quite historically obscure to most Mormons - I think it was quite controversial during the "feminist" movement of the 1960's and 70's. There might be an article in it. I will refine this article once I find a more comprehensive source. The next RS article on Bathsheba Smith will also be somewhat cursory to begin with. Please put in anything else you find. WBardwin 23:23, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
AHA! Regarding questions #2/3 above. Bad memory. Sealed to Joseph Smith with husband's permission. He also approved her sealing "for time" to Brigham Young. Will look for his death date.
I know stories were made up about Henry Bailey Jacobs because they could not justify the marrying of his wife. Henry had no choice. They had a second child after Zebulon named Henry Chariton Jacobs because he was born in a wagon while the wagon train led by Brigham Young was crossing the Chariton River in Iowa. Here is an excerpt from that time with the citation. I was told that all she wanted after she had Henry Chariton Jacobs was a cup of coffee. At that time the Mormons has not disavowed coffee. I have a more detailed account if that birth that has been passed down in my family as I am a direct descendant of Henry Chariton Jacobs. Magzami ( talk) 02:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Primarily I added som e information regarding her plural marriages, but I also reorganized the text, so that it tells the story in chronological order. I"ve always preferred to read a story in chronological order. Can anyon expand the following sentence. It lacks parallelism. The following statement could be improved: She was taught household skills, such as spinning, soap making, and weaving, and received a basic education, inlcuding ...-- ErinHowarth 22:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Suddenly she is married to Brigham Young and her first husband is gone. Divorce? Widowed? Where'd he go?
He was actually exiled after he came home from his mission. His two sons with Zina: Zebulon and Henry Chariton became Brigham Young’s drivers. I have read many letters that were written to Zina requesting to see his boys. The letters are pretty heartbreaking. I don’t believe he took other wives. He is buried alongside Zina, Zebulon, and Zebulon’s wife in the Salt Lake City Cemetery. It does not have the name Father, or Husband or anything on his small grave stone. As a direct descendant of Zina and Henry B. Jacobs I find that disheartening. Magzami ( talk) 02:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
The truth is still the truth. Her gravestone and legal name were verifiably Jacobs. I figured this would happen. The LDS church asked my family long ago never to speak of this. So I was expecting the edits. Sad. Magzami ( talk) 07:38, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
This is not the end of this story. I think you will one day feel regret for editing this name. Magzami ( talk) 07:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
I will head to Utah and get you what you need to change it. Most of the evidence is in “Closed” church records that are not available to the public. I have some of those records and if they need publication for the reference to be changed, then I can do that too. I also have an interview at the end of her (Zina’s) life where she was asked why she married Henry Bailey Jacobs, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. (At the time they were all basically sealed in the beginning.) She said that she wanted a higher place in heaven. Her two boys would have maybe been able to see their father? They were never officially divorced to my knowledge. I may have the marriage certificate in the box that was given to my by my great aunt Oa Jacobs. Until I make that journey I understand why you have to do this. The church records have numerous citations that she was married to Henry Bailey Jacobs so I am unsure of why the name needs to be dropped. She was buried next to Henry Bailey Jacobs, her son Zebulon Jacobs and his wife. The her stone also says “wife of Brigham Young.” I am assuming the funds that paid for that headstone would also be invested in that same narrative. I can’t remember if her daughter Zina Card was buried there too. Having a child with Brigham may have made it necessary to remove the name Jacobs as he was still living. Henry B. Jacobs was exiled to California I have those records as well. I am sure the “Smith” stands because he had passed away before she took Brighams name. H.B. Jacobs wanted his two sons back or at least access to see them. I also have those letters Of his heartfelt requests he referred to them as his “two little lambs.” Anyway, I will do what I can. Revisionist history is distasteful to me regardless of its intention. We are living in a “post-truth” era. Being an actual living descendant of Zina and Henry Jacobs is reason enough for me to feel somewhat irked. I respect your diligence to rules, and will continue this journey. More soon. Magzami ( talk) 23:25, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
Image:Zinayoung.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 20:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Image:Zinayoung.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 04:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of whether or not Zina Young was married to Joseph Smith in a clandestine polygamous union, the law in the Midwest US states is quite clear that only one spouse is legal and recognized by the state. Young was therefore never a member of the Smith family, and I have removed her from the category. Young was never acknowledged by the Smith family as ever having been a part of it, nor did she conceive any Smiths. With all due respect, including her in the Smith family category seems more based on denominational politics than legal fact. Best, A Sniper ( talk) 02:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps one way to resolve this dispute is to make a sub-category of the Smith Family category called "Wives of Joseph Smith, Jr.". Then you could divide the two groups of people, but still show that there is a correlation between the two. -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 04:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Again attempts have been made to add the surname Smith without any discussion. As above, my objections aren't based on whether or not the allegations of a wedding to JSJr. are agreed by every reputable historian - it isn't about that. My argument is based on the fact that this was never her legal name. The 'marriage' to Smith, if & when it occurred, was clandestine, not sanctioned either by the church or by the state, and not even widely known. Whereas Young was married openly to the woman, living as husband & wife, this was not the case with Smith & this woman. She never went to any municipality or government office to take on the name legally. She is not recognized as having been married into the Smith family at either the Smith family organization (run by LDS member Michael Kennedy) nor titled as a Smith at the wikipedia articles about the Smith family or even the wives of Joseph Smith, Jr. I therefore contend that posthumously adding Smith to her name in the article is, at best, a good faith error, and at worst, POV-pushing. Best, A Sniper ( talk) 01:26, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Does any editor here have any objections to my writing a more comprehensive lead for her article? It's going to be her 200th birthday soon, and I'd like the article to be at its best. (It might get some traffic.) If I start now, I might be able to get her on "On this day" in time. Cstickel(byu) ( talk) 22:59, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Zina D. H. Young article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on January 31, 2021. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
Wikimedia Foundation's
Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see
WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see
WP:COIRESPONSE.
|
The quote by Brigham Young cited in the Hall source was removed. Hall is the only one to have it recorded it. It does not seem like a very reliable source of information, since there are no other records that indicate that Brigham Young said that.
See http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_Did_Brigham_Young_tell_Henry_Jacobs_in_front_of_hundreds_of_people_that_he_needed_to_find_another_wife%3F Amgisseman(BYU) ( talk) 17:01, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
A couple of questions I have from reading this article.
I would love to see these points clarified. Great article, nonetheless. Jgardner 21:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Keep in mind I'm working from just a couple of LDS Church sources here, and she is a "woman," so many of the details are vague. I know there is at least one full length biography published but I haven't tracked it down yet. So, from what I know --
The role of women in the early church is a fascinating topic and quite historically obscure to most Mormons - I think it was quite controversial during the "feminist" movement of the 1960's and 70's. There might be an article in it. I will refine this article once I find a more comprehensive source. The next RS article on Bathsheba Smith will also be somewhat cursory to begin with. Please put in anything else you find. WBardwin 23:23, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
AHA! Regarding questions #2/3 above. Bad memory. Sealed to Joseph Smith with husband's permission. He also approved her sealing "for time" to Brigham Young. Will look for his death date.
I know stories were made up about Henry Bailey Jacobs because they could not justify the marrying of his wife. Henry had no choice. They had a second child after Zebulon named Henry Chariton Jacobs because he was born in a wagon while the wagon train led by Brigham Young was crossing the Chariton River in Iowa. Here is an excerpt from that time with the citation. I was told that all she wanted after she had Henry Chariton Jacobs was a cup of coffee. At that time the Mormons has not disavowed coffee. I have a more detailed account if that birth that has been passed down in my family as I am a direct descendant of Henry Chariton Jacobs. Magzami ( talk) 02:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Primarily I added som e information regarding her plural marriages, but I also reorganized the text, so that it tells the story in chronological order. I"ve always preferred to read a story in chronological order. Can anyon expand the following sentence. It lacks parallelism. The following statement could be improved: She was taught household skills, such as spinning, soap making, and weaving, and received a basic education, inlcuding ...-- ErinHowarth 22:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Suddenly she is married to Brigham Young and her first husband is gone. Divorce? Widowed? Where'd he go?
He was actually exiled after he came home from his mission. His two sons with Zina: Zebulon and Henry Chariton became Brigham Young’s drivers. I have read many letters that were written to Zina requesting to see his boys. The letters are pretty heartbreaking. I don’t believe he took other wives. He is buried alongside Zina, Zebulon, and Zebulon’s wife in the Salt Lake City Cemetery. It does not have the name Father, or Husband or anything on his small grave stone. As a direct descendant of Zina and Henry B. Jacobs I find that disheartening. Magzami ( talk) 02:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
The truth is still the truth. Her gravestone and legal name were verifiably Jacobs. I figured this would happen. The LDS church asked my family long ago never to speak of this. So I was expecting the edits. Sad. Magzami ( talk) 07:38, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
This is not the end of this story. I think you will one day feel regret for editing this name. Magzami ( talk) 07:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
I will head to Utah and get you what you need to change it. Most of the evidence is in “Closed” church records that are not available to the public. I have some of those records and if they need publication for the reference to be changed, then I can do that too. I also have an interview at the end of her (Zina’s) life where she was asked why she married Henry Bailey Jacobs, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. (At the time they were all basically sealed in the beginning.) She said that she wanted a higher place in heaven. Her two boys would have maybe been able to see their father? They were never officially divorced to my knowledge. I may have the marriage certificate in the box that was given to my by my great aunt Oa Jacobs. Until I make that journey I understand why you have to do this. The church records have numerous citations that she was married to Henry Bailey Jacobs so I am unsure of why the name needs to be dropped. She was buried next to Henry Bailey Jacobs, her son Zebulon Jacobs and his wife. The her stone also says “wife of Brigham Young.” I am assuming the funds that paid for that headstone would also be invested in that same narrative. I can’t remember if her daughter Zina Card was buried there too. Having a child with Brigham may have made it necessary to remove the name Jacobs as he was still living. Henry B. Jacobs was exiled to California I have those records as well. I am sure the “Smith” stands because he had passed away before she took Brighams name. H.B. Jacobs wanted his two sons back or at least access to see them. I also have those letters Of his heartfelt requests he referred to them as his “two little lambs.” Anyway, I will do what I can. Revisionist history is distasteful to me regardless of its intention. We are living in a “post-truth” era. Being an actual living descendant of Zina and Henry Jacobs is reason enough for me to feel somewhat irked. I respect your diligence to rules, and will continue this journey. More soon. Magzami ( talk) 23:25, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
Image:Zinayoung.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 20:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Image:Zinayoung.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 04:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of whether or not Zina Young was married to Joseph Smith in a clandestine polygamous union, the law in the Midwest US states is quite clear that only one spouse is legal and recognized by the state. Young was therefore never a member of the Smith family, and I have removed her from the category. Young was never acknowledged by the Smith family as ever having been a part of it, nor did she conceive any Smiths. With all due respect, including her in the Smith family category seems more based on denominational politics than legal fact. Best, A Sniper ( talk) 02:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps one way to resolve this dispute is to make a sub-category of the Smith Family category called "Wives of Joseph Smith, Jr.". Then you could divide the two groups of people, but still show that there is a correlation between the two. -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 04:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Again attempts have been made to add the surname Smith without any discussion. As above, my objections aren't based on whether or not the allegations of a wedding to JSJr. are agreed by every reputable historian - it isn't about that. My argument is based on the fact that this was never her legal name. The 'marriage' to Smith, if & when it occurred, was clandestine, not sanctioned either by the church or by the state, and not even widely known. Whereas Young was married openly to the woman, living as husband & wife, this was not the case with Smith & this woman. She never went to any municipality or government office to take on the name legally. She is not recognized as having been married into the Smith family at either the Smith family organization (run by LDS member Michael Kennedy) nor titled as a Smith at the wikipedia articles about the Smith family or even the wives of Joseph Smith, Jr. I therefore contend that posthumously adding Smith to her name in the article is, at best, a good faith error, and at worst, POV-pushing. Best, A Sniper ( talk) 01:26, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Does any editor here have any objections to my writing a more comprehensive lead for her article? It's going to be her 200th birthday soon, and I'd like the article to be at its best. (It might get some traffic.) If I start now, I might be able to get her on "On this day" in time. Cstickel(byu) ( talk) 22:59, 13 January 2021 (UTC)