This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In the notes at the head of the table there is a reference to the "Duo dynasty". This seems to be a typo but I can't be sure of what was intended. Could somebody please clarify the reference. Eclecticology 19:52 Nov 2, 2002 (UTC)
Why are they years necessary in the article title? -- Zoe
I personally strongly oppose the date shown in "Zhou dynasty kings" since the the controversy regarding this project never died down, and the project never published its final report in the complete version as they promised. Now, many people in China believe that this project is dead in water. In any event, many new alternative results by both the official scholars and private scholars (myself being one of them) has proposed alternative dates. My research shows that the founding date of Zhou Dynasty was Marhc 10, 1044 BC, different from any other previously published result (posted on Chronology Research ( http://www.niandaixue.com/bbs/index.php?showtopic=1872) on Sept. 5, 2006. Teh modified version is available on http://bbs.guoxue.com/viewtopic.php?p=472539#472539 and on http://www.history-forum.com/node/26. Now there is a certain "prof. Jiang xiaoyuan" who, presumably, has reached a similar/identical conclusion with a computer software and is trying to claim the "First" with merely a "record of private conversation".
Archeologists record the first extensive use of iron in China as starting during the Zhou dynasty, yet there seems to be no mention of iron in this article at all. Arkuat 22:09, 2004 Jul 31 (UTC)
Lester, the section was probably removed for several reasons. It would have been nice if the person removing it left some type of message with you.
Fuzheado | Talk 15:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that the blurb under the title of "Zhou Dynasty may also refer to Zhou Dynasty from 690 to 705 AD (see Empress Wu Zetian of China), or the Later Zhou Dynasty from 951 BC. to 690 AD." is appropriately worded. "Zhou Dyn." is never used to refer to Wu Zetian's dynasty (i.e., no one would say simply "during the Zhou Dyn." as a reference to her reign period). The dates of 951 BC. to 690 AD are also bizzarely wrong. Dragonbones 16:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
It looks like the upper left corner of the picture "Western Zhou vase with glass inlays, 4th-3rd century BCE, British Museum" is covering most of a word "by", making it appear as a tick mark ' . Can sb pls fix this? I don't know how. Dragonbones 09:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The main page gave the correct end date for the dynasty as a whole, 256, but later under the Western & Eastern Zhou section, gave the date of 221. There appears to be widespread confusion over the ending date of the Zhou dynasty, with some sources giving 221 BC, and others giving 256 BC (e.g., the authoritative sources I cite below). The problem is that despite the tendency of casual writers and amateur websites to think of one dynasty being ended by the beginning of another, the truth is rarely so simple. The last Zhou king's reign clearly ended earlier than the unification by Qin. There was a gap in between which is the post-Zhou, tail end of the Warring States period. Another way to present the problem is that the Warring States period (which ended with unification) is often imprecisely mentioned “as” the second half of the Eastern Zhou, when in fact this is only approximately the case; in fact the WS period extends beyond the fall of the Zhou dynasty, by 35 years.
The following properly give a 256 BC end date for the Zhou:
Loewe, Michael & Shaughnessy, Edward L. (1999). The Cambridge History of Ancient China – from the Origins of Civilization to 221 B.C. Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0 521 47030 7.
Loewe, Michael (ed., 1993). Early Chinese Texts: A Bibliographical Guide, (Early China Special Monograph Series No. 2), Society for the Study of Early China, and the Institute of East Asian Studies, University of California, Berkeley, ISBN 1-55729-043-1.
Roberts, J.A.G., A Concise History of China (1999). Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA. ISBN 0-674-00074-9. Reference is on p.7: “The Zhou dynasty is traditionally dated from 1122 to 256 BC,…divided into the Western Zhou, from 1122 to 771 BC, and the Eastern Zhou, the latter age being further subdivided into the Spring and Autumn Period, from 771 to 481 BC, and the Warring States period, from 403 to 221 BC.” Dragonbones 13:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
周 was an ethnic group of herders inhabited in west of 商,they became sinicized and eventually became farmers. They were originally matriarchal, you could see that by analyzing the surname of the 周 leaders, which is character 姬, composes of characters meaning "woman" and "subjugator", and my surname 姜 is composed of characters meaning "sheep" and "woman". (posted by 24.199.81.64)
I hope that you people don't mind my putting an external link to the Zhou Dynasty page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_dynasty
1. The Zhou people are among those who were the original Hebrews mentioned in the Holy Bible. We are not Hamites. We are descendants of Shem. http://www.geocities.com/zhouclan/chia_pu.html
2. The Zhou Dynasty, today, is China's Imperial dynasty and Imperial family (by history and court installation), so I thought that I would add a bit of information about the Zhou Dynasty, which is my family's dynasty. By telling people who put this information or link online, I am using myself as an authority source. I am not trying to boast, nor necessarily give myself a pat on the back, but I am allowing people to see the source of authority for this information.
In Wikipedia, you should allow all people to publish information and not exclude people whom you do not like. I am the formost authority on the Zhou Dynasty today. I can be contacted by postal mail or telephone at P.O. Box 4604, Honolulu, Hawaii 96812, (808) 545-7843, if anyone has any questions.
Lester D.K. Chow, historian and president of the Chou Clansmen Association of America.
Corrected start / end dates for the Zhou. Here is the link. http://www-chaos.umd.edu/history/ancient1.html#zhou
Bao Shu Ya , Zhou Dynasty...
I'm trying to find information on this person. He was a judge I think...
From what I can see studying Chinese history, the West has its own concepts of what China's history is all about. Sometimes, the West is accurate and sometimes the West is far out of line. In order to be a scholar and in order to learn, people need to be humble and listen more than they speak.
Sometimes, Western scholars are proud and heady, yet history has proven them to be wrong many times.
In the study of history, one needs to be humble. One needs to learn and come as a student, listen and accept the teachings, rather than to destroy a nation's age-long ageless four thousand year history.
Earlier this morning, I posted somethings about my family's dynasty and when I checked back later my posting was erased!
The same happened to my brother and he finally gave up posting, if the organizers and administrators of this online encyclopedia don't care to be factual and they don't care for truth, then continue to delete my postings. Your online encyclopedia isn't worth the effort and you are not the ultimate, when it comes to China's history.
I would like an apology as well as my postings restored.
I would like to add here:
1. The Chou Dynasty is currently China's Imperial family.
2. Western historians, including Chinese-Americans PhD holders, who study in American colleges, have an inaccurate and sometimes distorted idea of what China's history is all about.
3. It is good to have an online encyclopedia, so people can post (not erase) additional facts and views (sometimes conflicting with current day "authorities") of China's ageless four-thoudsand year history.
We, my brother and I, represent the Imperial family of China and we are the best self-taught China experts in the entire world in our own specialty on China history and the Chou Dynasty, my family! There are no better experts!
Yours,
Keith D.H. Chow
User:
KDHChow
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
KDHChow (
talk •
contribs) 17:24, 27 January 2007
Second posting:
1. We are the experts on China and the Chou Dynasty, I do not delete the postings of others. I contribute to your pool of knowledge, so others might be able to do their own research to confirm or deny our materials. My brother and I are historians.
2. The front page of Wikipedia says: "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." We are not just anybody, we are experts in our own very unique field on China and we represent China and her imperial family.
User: KDHChow —Preceding unsigned comment added by KDHChow ( talk • contribs) 17:42, 27 January 2007
We should split this article. Western Zhou is so different from Eastern Zhou that it would be misleading to a lay reader to have this together. Elijahmeeks 05:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The "Agriculture" section states: China's first projects of hydraulic engineering were founded during the Zhou Dynasty, ultimately for means to aid agricultrual irrigation. What happened to Yu the Great and his irrigation project? Uly 12:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
map is totally wrong, the kingdom of wu and yue, though they had kings descended from the zhou and xia dynasties, did NOT petition the court for a title or peerage from the zhou king, so why is there a dot in the region. ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ ( talk) 19:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
According to the latest revealation, The Chief Scientist in-Charge for the Xia-Shang-Zhou Dynasties chronology Project in China and some of his assistants have been engaged in systematic forgary regarding ancient artifacts discovered in recent years. This add strong doubts on the results of the highly controvertial and politically motivated project. I strongly believe that all the years and dates of the Western Zhou should be subjected to systematic re-examination before it could be admitted to this page. Many of them have been proved to be misleading. For this reason, I have taken out those years of the Western Zhou Dynasty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Line ( talk • contribs) 01:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The Western Zhou Dynasty is when the Fengjian system was used. The Fengjian system was simply giving some land to the people in the royal family or the king's close friends. Those people are called dukes. I was just wondering that since the king of Zhou was the one who gave the land to the dukes, shouldn't it be that the land of the dukes are still the land of the king of Zhou? If that is accurate, the map of Zhou should be enlarged. Mar vin kaiser ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)<
I have to point out a few things:
1) The language used in that section is not the level we would expect from an encyclopedia. While the facts seem to follow the generic lines of events, how can we have something like:
"His son King You (周幽王) ascended and still continued King Li's strict aid. Then came the lady Bao Si, which made King You mess with her and not care about the country. Then he married Bao Si and had a child, and he wanted to cancel the Crown Prince. But Bao Si never laughed, no matter what. King You later formated a fire to trick the princes of the country. The princes were angry about this and never helped him again. King You then canceled the Crown Prince's mother, the queen, and the father of the queen, Marquise of Shen, allied with the dog tribes and sacked the capital Haoji."
This is really really bad english...
2) How come we do not have dates? or at least a semblant of genealogy? The battle of Muje was around 1045, and the end was in 771, and we seem more or less to have the order of the kings (The cambridge history of Ancient China seems to agree with what is already in the article) so what is the issue in not making this article better?
3) How come, when we have so many of the names of the kings, none of them are linked to their personal articles? These are all important kings with their own articles...
4) Even if there are some disagreements between traditional chinese history and what some researchers/historians say, why cant we have both sides? "according to... and according to..."
So this article has to be bettered, because the Zhou are a very important dynasty in China...
by comparison, the articles about the ancient Indian Dynasties are 10 times better... so it is not a East/West thing...
I am very bad with all the technical things necessary to edit an article. If someone can help out I am ready to help with information and structuring the article... Vhakyemez ( talk) 10:01, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
The page loaded with imaged obscuring text on my browser (firefox 3.0.6) so I reformatted them either to the gallery or in the empty space next to the table of kings. I also moved the two infoboxes there for the same reason. The Layout looks a little cleaner now as I result, and I would argue the space next the kinglist is a relevant if not aesthetic location for the infoboxes. I also added some wikification by moving the gallery to the final section as per the MOS. I would further ask that someone wikify the reference and notes. I hope everyone can agree to the new layout enough at least to not revert it to its old illegible form.
As a cleanup item I think the structure of this article should match with Xia, Shang, and other chinese dynasty articles for consistency thanks-- Gurdjieff ( talk) 06:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that this section and the one following it should really be be split out into seperate sections covering Western Zhou then Eastern Zhou. At the moment there is a lot of repeated information and the flow is somewhat arbitary. Philg88 ( talk) 23:43, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments, much appreciated. As per the overall article structure here are some further issues that we could perhaps address at the same time. Based on the current TOC:
1 History
1.1 Early history - possibly change title to Origin and rise to power
1.2 Western and Eastern Zhou - split into two sections - Western Zhou (1046 - 771 BCE) and Eastern Zhou (770 - 256 BCE)
1.3 Decline Possibly Decline and Extinction
2 Mandate of Heaven - I'm not sure that this is relevant here, it could either be merged with the
Mandate of Heaven article or moved to section 1.1
3 Zhou military no issues right now
4 Fengjian Feudalism It is arguable whether China ever was feudalistic - "well-field system" may be better.
5 Agriculture no issues right now
6 Art no issues right now
7 Zhou dynasty kings no issues right now
8 See also
9 Notes
10 References
11 External links
I think that with our combined efforts this article can achieve WP:FA status. Philg88 ( talk) 11:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I have not posted or contributed anything here in Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, and after reading articles and many comments and deletions I am wondering just what can we, the people, publish here? Either we publish known material from already published sources which is a violation of copyright laws or create our own material from our own research work. By now most everything known is already published and copyrighted. Original articles from authority sources should in my opinion be acceptable. I would like to have a qualified opinion on my comments. People commenting should not be anonymous. Leon Poon and others like him are known and acceptable historians and authors. Such people usually hold credentials and are in the teaching field at some well-known university. Just asking and looking for valid opinions. Himyaosui ( talk) 02:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
The English common name for the dynasty is not Zhōu any more than it's 周: It's Zhou.
I'm not interested in an edit war over something that's going to take so long to fix, so can we get an admin/some consensus that this needs to go? Those curious about precise tonal values of Chinese names lose no information, since it can be quickly retrieved via link. — LlywelynII 14:22, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Remember, tone diacritics are not used to transcribe names or terms that appear in the normal flow of an article... They should only be used in templates (e.g. traditional Chinese: 顧炎武; pinyin: Gù Yánwǔ) or infoboxes.
In general, the titles of Chinese entries should be in Hanyu Pinyin (but without tone marks)
The focus on castration is still very much in violation of Wikipedia:Undue_weight#Undue_weight. plus, are we going to put a castration section on every single empire that practiced castration? the byzantines, romans, ottoman, and other empires all practiced castation, and we are not putting a special section for castration on each of their respective pages.
Chinese law contained hundreds of offenses for every possible offence imaginable, from disprespecting ones parents to using the emperor's name Naming taboo, which ranged from getting a slip on the wrist to death by Slow slicing. Are we going to list every single offense and punishment under chinese law? seriously?
in addition, the procedure for castration is already documented at the castration article itself. all that is needed is a link to castration, rendering irrelevant the extra sentences "castration included removal of the penis" or etc. Bunser ( talk) 21:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Firstly Bunser stated his mass removal due to "deleting information sourced by 100 year old journals". Then he says there is already an article on castration so there is no reason to mention it here (?) Then he claims undue weight. Part of the reason I reverted the deletion here was because Bunser opened a new account and went through around eight articles removing sections that mention penises, in each case claiming that the sources were too old. It seems that he is on a mission, searching for a reason to remove the material. I don't think there is any problem with mentioning castration in the Zhou Dynasty in a wider context of cultural practices. It would serve the article to add more contexting material than delete outright. There is a strong element of organic growth in Wikipedia articles, as we know. You may well find a content structure that you will not find elsewhere. That doesn't make it undue. In answer to Kansas Bear's question of why the mass deletions are being made, it seems to have more to do with "I don't like it" than anything else. I'm interested in the articles being the best that they can be. Wikipedia is a collaborative process, not best approached when spitting feathers. Span ( talk) 00:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
"The Decline of the Shang and the Era of Zhou Dominance. The Zhou, a Turkic-speaking nomadic people from central Asia, became vassals of the Shang. By the end of the 12th century B.C.E. they seized power and established a dynasty enduring until the 3rd millennium B.C.E. The first ruler, Wu, greatly expanded the state's borders to the east and south. The new rulers had a more centralized government than the Shang. Their most powerful vassals were relatives or loyal allies who controlled other relatives under them in the hierarchy. A distinct class of scholar-administrators, the shi - men of service - took form. Vassal states were annexed and the Zhou rulers claimed ownership of all land. Vassals received land for their support; suspect people had to migrate to areas dominated by loyal subordinates."
[...]
"Zhou: originally a vassal family of the Shang; possibly Turkic in origin; overthrew Shang and established 2nd Chinese dynasty."
( Source)-- Tirgil34 ( talk) 23:46, 5 Mart 2012 (CET)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In the notes at the head of the table there is a reference to the "Duo dynasty". This seems to be a typo but I can't be sure of what was intended. Could somebody please clarify the reference. Eclecticology 19:52 Nov 2, 2002 (UTC)
Why are they years necessary in the article title? -- Zoe
I personally strongly oppose the date shown in "Zhou dynasty kings" since the the controversy regarding this project never died down, and the project never published its final report in the complete version as they promised. Now, many people in China believe that this project is dead in water. In any event, many new alternative results by both the official scholars and private scholars (myself being one of them) has proposed alternative dates. My research shows that the founding date of Zhou Dynasty was Marhc 10, 1044 BC, different from any other previously published result (posted on Chronology Research ( http://www.niandaixue.com/bbs/index.php?showtopic=1872) on Sept. 5, 2006. Teh modified version is available on http://bbs.guoxue.com/viewtopic.php?p=472539#472539 and on http://www.history-forum.com/node/26. Now there is a certain "prof. Jiang xiaoyuan" who, presumably, has reached a similar/identical conclusion with a computer software and is trying to claim the "First" with merely a "record of private conversation".
Archeologists record the first extensive use of iron in China as starting during the Zhou dynasty, yet there seems to be no mention of iron in this article at all. Arkuat 22:09, 2004 Jul 31 (UTC)
Lester, the section was probably removed for several reasons. It would have been nice if the person removing it left some type of message with you.
Fuzheado | Talk 15:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that the blurb under the title of "Zhou Dynasty may also refer to Zhou Dynasty from 690 to 705 AD (see Empress Wu Zetian of China), or the Later Zhou Dynasty from 951 BC. to 690 AD." is appropriately worded. "Zhou Dyn." is never used to refer to Wu Zetian's dynasty (i.e., no one would say simply "during the Zhou Dyn." as a reference to her reign period). The dates of 951 BC. to 690 AD are also bizzarely wrong. Dragonbones 16:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
It looks like the upper left corner of the picture "Western Zhou vase with glass inlays, 4th-3rd century BCE, British Museum" is covering most of a word "by", making it appear as a tick mark ' . Can sb pls fix this? I don't know how. Dragonbones 09:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The main page gave the correct end date for the dynasty as a whole, 256, but later under the Western & Eastern Zhou section, gave the date of 221. There appears to be widespread confusion over the ending date of the Zhou dynasty, with some sources giving 221 BC, and others giving 256 BC (e.g., the authoritative sources I cite below). The problem is that despite the tendency of casual writers and amateur websites to think of one dynasty being ended by the beginning of another, the truth is rarely so simple. The last Zhou king's reign clearly ended earlier than the unification by Qin. There was a gap in between which is the post-Zhou, tail end of the Warring States period. Another way to present the problem is that the Warring States period (which ended with unification) is often imprecisely mentioned “as” the second half of the Eastern Zhou, when in fact this is only approximately the case; in fact the WS period extends beyond the fall of the Zhou dynasty, by 35 years.
The following properly give a 256 BC end date for the Zhou:
Loewe, Michael & Shaughnessy, Edward L. (1999). The Cambridge History of Ancient China – from the Origins of Civilization to 221 B.C. Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0 521 47030 7.
Loewe, Michael (ed., 1993). Early Chinese Texts: A Bibliographical Guide, (Early China Special Monograph Series No. 2), Society for the Study of Early China, and the Institute of East Asian Studies, University of California, Berkeley, ISBN 1-55729-043-1.
Roberts, J.A.G., A Concise History of China (1999). Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA. ISBN 0-674-00074-9. Reference is on p.7: “The Zhou dynasty is traditionally dated from 1122 to 256 BC,…divided into the Western Zhou, from 1122 to 771 BC, and the Eastern Zhou, the latter age being further subdivided into the Spring and Autumn Period, from 771 to 481 BC, and the Warring States period, from 403 to 221 BC.” Dragonbones 13:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
周 was an ethnic group of herders inhabited in west of 商,they became sinicized and eventually became farmers. They were originally matriarchal, you could see that by analyzing the surname of the 周 leaders, which is character 姬, composes of characters meaning "woman" and "subjugator", and my surname 姜 is composed of characters meaning "sheep" and "woman". (posted by 24.199.81.64)
I hope that you people don't mind my putting an external link to the Zhou Dynasty page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_dynasty
1. The Zhou people are among those who were the original Hebrews mentioned in the Holy Bible. We are not Hamites. We are descendants of Shem. http://www.geocities.com/zhouclan/chia_pu.html
2. The Zhou Dynasty, today, is China's Imperial dynasty and Imperial family (by history and court installation), so I thought that I would add a bit of information about the Zhou Dynasty, which is my family's dynasty. By telling people who put this information or link online, I am using myself as an authority source. I am not trying to boast, nor necessarily give myself a pat on the back, but I am allowing people to see the source of authority for this information.
In Wikipedia, you should allow all people to publish information and not exclude people whom you do not like. I am the formost authority on the Zhou Dynasty today. I can be contacted by postal mail or telephone at P.O. Box 4604, Honolulu, Hawaii 96812, (808) 545-7843, if anyone has any questions.
Lester D.K. Chow, historian and president of the Chou Clansmen Association of America.
Corrected start / end dates for the Zhou. Here is the link. http://www-chaos.umd.edu/history/ancient1.html#zhou
Bao Shu Ya , Zhou Dynasty...
I'm trying to find information on this person. He was a judge I think...
From what I can see studying Chinese history, the West has its own concepts of what China's history is all about. Sometimes, the West is accurate and sometimes the West is far out of line. In order to be a scholar and in order to learn, people need to be humble and listen more than they speak.
Sometimes, Western scholars are proud and heady, yet history has proven them to be wrong many times.
In the study of history, one needs to be humble. One needs to learn and come as a student, listen and accept the teachings, rather than to destroy a nation's age-long ageless four thousand year history.
Earlier this morning, I posted somethings about my family's dynasty and when I checked back later my posting was erased!
The same happened to my brother and he finally gave up posting, if the organizers and administrators of this online encyclopedia don't care to be factual and they don't care for truth, then continue to delete my postings. Your online encyclopedia isn't worth the effort and you are not the ultimate, when it comes to China's history.
I would like an apology as well as my postings restored.
I would like to add here:
1. The Chou Dynasty is currently China's Imperial family.
2. Western historians, including Chinese-Americans PhD holders, who study in American colleges, have an inaccurate and sometimes distorted idea of what China's history is all about.
3. It is good to have an online encyclopedia, so people can post (not erase) additional facts and views (sometimes conflicting with current day "authorities") of China's ageless four-thoudsand year history.
We, my brother and I, represent the Imperial family of China and we are the best self-taught China experts in the entire world in our own specialty on China history and the Chou Dynasty, my family! There are no better experts!
Yours,
Keith D.H. Chow
User:
KDHChow
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
KDHChow (
talk •
contribs) 17:24, 27 January 2007
Second posting:
1. We are the experts on China and the Chou Dynasty, I do not delete the postings of others. I contribute to your pool of knowledge, so others might be able to do their own research to confirm or deny our materials. My brother and I are historians.
2. The front page of Wikipedia says: "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." We are not just anybody, we are experts in our own very unique field on China and we represent China and her imperial family.
User: KDHChow —Preceding unsigned comment added by KDHChow ( talk • contribs) 17:42, 27 January 2007
We should split this article. Western Zhou is so different from Eastern Zhou that it would be misleading to a lay reader to have this together. Elijahmeeks 05:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The "Agriculture" section states: China's first projects of hydraulic engineering were founded during the Zhou Dynasty, ultimately for means to aid agricultrual irrigation. What happened to Yu the Great and his irrigation project? Uly 12:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
map is totally wrong, the kingdom of wu and yue, though they had kings descended from the zhou and xia dynasties, did NOT petition the court for a title or peerage from the zhou king, so why is there a dot in the region. ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ ( talk) 19:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
According to the latest revealation, The Chief Scientist in-Charge for the Xia-Shang-Zhou Dynasties chronology Project in China and some of his assistants have been engaged in systematic forgary regarding ancient artifacts discovered in recent years. This add strong doubts on the results of the highly controvertial and politically motivated project. I strongly believe that all the years and dates of the Western Zhou should be subjected to systematic re-examination before it could be admitted to this page. Many of them have been proved to be misleading. For this reason, I have taken out those years of the Western Zhou Dynasty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Line ( talk • contribs) 01:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The Western Zhou Dynasty is when the Fengjian system was used. The Fengjian system was simply giving some land to the people in the royal family or the king's close friends. Those people are called dukes. I was just wondering that since the king of Zhou was the one who gave the land to the dukes, shouldn't it be that the land of the dukes are still the land of the king of Zhou? If that is accurate, the map of Zhou should be enlarged. Mar vin kaiser ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)<
I have to point out a few things:
1) The language used in that section is not the level we would expect from an encyclopedia. While the facts seem to follow the generic lines of events, how can we have something like:
"His son King You (周幽王) ascended and still continued King Li's strict aid. Then came the lady Bao Si, which made King You mess with her and not care about the country. Then he married Bao Si and had a child, and he wanted to cancel the Crown Prince. But Bao Si never laughed, no matter what. King You later formated a fire to trick the princes of the country. The princes were angry about this and never helped him again. King You then canceled the Crown Prince's mother, the queen, and the father of the queen, Marquise of Shen, allied with the dog tribes and sacked the capital Haoji."
This is really really bad english...
2) How come we do not have dates? or at least a semblant of genealogy? The battle of Muje was around 1045, and the end was in 771, and we seem more or less to have the order of the kings (The cambridge history of Ancient China seems to agree with what is already in the article) so what is the issue in not making this article better?
3) How come, when we have so many of the names of the kings, none of them are linked to their personal articles? These are all important kings with their own articles...
4) Even if there are some disagreements between traditional chinese history and what some researchers/historians say, why cant we have both sides? "according to... and according to..."
So this article has to be bettered, because the Zhou are a very important dynasty in China...
by comparison, the articles about the ancient Indian Dynasties are 10 times better... so it is not a East/West thing...
I am very bad with all the technical things necessary to edit an article. If someone can help out I am ready to help with information and structuring the article... Vhakyemez ( talk) 10:01, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
The page loaded with imaged obscuring text on my browser (firefox 3.0.6) so I reformatted them either to the gallery or in the empty space next to the table of kings. I also moved the two infoboxes there for the same reason. The Layout looks a little cleaner now as I result, and I would argue the space next the kinglist is a relevant if not aesthetic location for the infoboxes. I also added some wikification by moving the gallery to the final section as per the MOS. I would further ask that someone wikify the reference and notes. I hope everyone can agree to the new layout enough at least to not revert it to its old illegible form.
As a cleanup item I think the structure of this article should match with Xia, Shang, and other chinese dynasty articles for consistency thanks-- Gurdjieff ( talk) 06:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that this section and the one following it should really be be split out into seperate sections covering Western Zhou then Eastern Zhou. At the moment there is a lot of repeated information and the flow is somewhat arbitary. Philg88 ( talk) 23:43, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments, much appreciated. As per the overall article structure here are some further issues that we could perhaps address at the same time. Based on the current TOC:
1 History
1.1 Early history - possibly change title to Origin and rise to power
1.2 Western and Eastern Zhou - split into two sections - Western Zhou (1046 - 771 BCE) and Eastern Zhou (770 - 256 BCE)
1.3 Decline Possibly Decline and Extinction
2 Mandate of Heaven - I'm not sure that this is relevant here, it could either be merged with the
Mandate of Heaven article or moved to section 1.1
3 Zhou military no issues right now
4 Fengjian Feudalism It is arguable whether China ever was feudalistic - "well-field system" may be better.
5 Agriculture no issues right now
6 Art no issues right now
7 Zhou dynasty kings no issues right now
8 See also
9 Notes
10 References
11 External links
I think that with our combined efforts this article can achieve WP:FA status. Philg88 ( talk) 11:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I have not posted or contributed anything here in Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, and after reading articles and many comments and deletions I am wondering just what can we, the people, publish here? Either we publish known material from already published sources which is a violation of copyright laws or create our own material from our own research work. By now most everything known is already published and copyrighted. Original articles from authority sources should in my opinion be acceptable. I would like to have a qualified opinion on my comments. People commenting should not be anonymous. Leon Poon and others like him are known and acceptable historians and authors. Such people usually hold credentials and are in the teaching field at some well-known university. Just asking and looking for valid opinions. Himyaosui ( talk) 02:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
The English common name for the dynasty is not Zhōu any more than it's 周: It's Zhou.
I'm not interested in an edit war over something that's going to take so long to fix, so can we get an admin/some consensus that this needs to go? Those curious about precise tonal values of Chinese names lose no information, since it can be quickly retrieved via link. — LlywelynII 14:22, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Remember, tone diacritics are not used to transcribe names or terms that appear in the normal flow of an article... They should only be used in templates (e.g. traditional Chinese: 顧炎武; pinyin: Gù Yánwǔ) or infoboxes.
In general, the titles of Chinese entries should be in Hanyu Pinyin (but without tone marks)
The focus on castration is still very much in violation of Wikipedia:Undue_weight#Undue_weight. plus, are we going to put a castration section on every single empire that practiced castration? the byzantines, romans, ottoman, and other empires all practiced castation, and we are not putting a special section for castration on each of their respective pages.
Chinese law contained hundreds of offenses for every possible offence imaginable, from disprespecting ones parents to using the emperor's name Naming taboo, which ranged from getting a slip on the wrist to death by Slow slicing. Are we going to list every single offense and punishment under chinese law? seriously?
in addition, the procedure for castration is already documented at the castration article itself. all that is needed is a link to castration, rendering irrelevant the extra sentences "castration included removal of the penis" or etc. Bunser ( talk) 21:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Firstly Bunser stated his mass removal due to "deleting information sourced by 100 year old journals". Then he says there is already an article on castration so there is no reason to mention it here (?) Then he claims undue weight. Part of the reason I reverted the deletion here was because Bunser opened a new account and went through around eight articles removing sections that mention penises, in each case claiming that the sources were too old. It seems that he is on a mission, searching for a reason to remove the material. I don't think there is any problem with mentioning castration in the Zhou Dynasty in a wider context of cultural practices. It would serve the article to add more contexting material than delete outright. There is a strong element of organic growth in Wikipedia articles, as we know. You may well find a content structure that you will not find elsewhere. That doesn't make it undue. In answer to Kansas Bear's question of why the mass deletions are being made, it seems to have more to do with "I don't like it" than anything else. I'm interested in the articles being the best that they can be. Wikipedia is a collaborative process, not best approached when spitting feathers. Span ( talk) 00:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
"The Decline of the Shang and the Era of Zhou Dominance. The Zhou, a Turkic-speaking nomadic people from central Asia, became vassals of the Shang. By the end of the 12th century B.C.E. they seized power and established a dynasty enduring until the 3rd millennium B.C.E. The first ruler, Wu, greatly expanded the state's borders to the east and south. The new rulers had a more centralized government than the Shang. Their most powerful vassals were relatives or loyal allies who controlled other relatives under them in the hierarchy. A distinct class of scholar-administrators, the shi - men of service - took form. Vassal states were annexed and the Zhou rulers claimed ownership of all land. Vassals received land for their support; suspect people had to migrate to areas dominated by loyal subordinates."
[...]
"Zhou: originally a vassal family of the Shang; possibly Turkic in origin; overthrew Shang and established 2nd Chinese dynasty."
( Source)-- Tirgil34 ( talk) 23:46, 5 Mart 2012 (CET)