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level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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To the
energetic body of the human
bodymind the 72,000
nadi of which are resonating with distinct and unique combinations of
bija seed syllables which are deities,
Thoughtform. These are the Peaceful and Wrathful deities of Zhitro Bardo practice by any other name. We are, indeed all
Sentient Beings with their energetic system are metaphorically
prayer flags,
mani stones and
prayer wheels whenever in any subtle or more tangible body. The Nada sounds through our energetic system. Outer, Inner and Secret mantra.
B9 hummingbird hovering (
talk •
contribs) 07:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
PS: Nadi/Nada Sanskrit
etymons. Crystal clear.
This right here: "A comparative analysis of Zhitro and Chöd would be informative." is pretty much the definition of OR. B9, if you can find references where this parallel has been discussed, please provide and include them, otherwise I think this last section needs to be removed. Thank you. Zero sharp ( talk) 22:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi B9 hummingbird hovering,
I think if we ask the participants of this page who is abrasive they might come up with an alternative candidate. As to me being ignorant and your points. Nyingma Terma certainly do not come from your ancestors. And in the view of those Tibetan Buddhists from all four schools who practice them they come from Padmasambhava. Who did not have children nor parents! You are not providing any historical or academic reference. Furthermore in the view of Nyingma school masters you are proliferating your own ideas into not only the dharma but more seriously terma which involves destroying their effectiveness and samayas and protectors. The corruption of terma by out of control egos is a large area of study within Nyingma and Kagyu and is highly warned against as one of the worst things a sentient being can do. It would be acceptable to me if you provided references to books or journals or papers by scholars, secular or not, but you are merely indulging in personal fantasies and when people ask for citations or references you simply erase their edits with arrogance.
Chod too has nothing to do with ancestor worship or funerary rites as such. It is equally effective in places where there has not been a recent dead body or disposal for a long time. And not just charnel grounds or cemeteries which are currently in use. Furthermore it is not limited to those. Some of the most effective Chod power places as laid out in local guides by Chod masters have and never had anything to do with corpses. The tradition of Chod power places is a large area of expertise too. Theoretically too Chod is not to do with benefiting the spirits of ancestors as you misrepresent. That would mean Pretas of the deceased and we know Pretas are only one of many forms dead ancestors, specially of practitioners, can take. It is to do with generating various beings of the eight classes and subclasses, not just Pretas, and then offering oneself and ultimately one's ego, the only big problem in smasara we suffer from, to them. They are mainly the demonic classes. Relatively we hope to bring the benefit of dharma to them and pacify them which makes most of them run away unless the practitioner is egoistic himself. That is if he or she is successful to generate them with enough ferocity. Ultimately the aim in Chod is non-duality. There are also secret meanings. So Chod is far from what you try to misrepresent too.
This is the typical way western New-agers who are non-academic and not experts on the subject behave and abuse Tibetan Buddhism. It is not inter-dependent origination or non-duality. It is known as proliferation and in the case of terma as breaking it's samayas and corrupting it. Technically according to Wiki rules if you can not find references for your wild speculations, the edits of the people you undid in protest should also be restored. Any fake terton calls himself a poet and indulging in non-duality. But most of them are not foolish enough to justify it by calling it pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising which means admitting the guilt of proliferating terma and corruption of it's samayas. I can go on forever debating but I see no point. The main point is I don't think anyone can stop your runaway conjecturing activity but let me tell you that it is extremely serious. You need to go to a great master and show all that you have spread in the name of dharma and tantra and terma and ask what to do. Good luck. Occasionaled ( talk) 19:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi B9 hummingbird hovering,
I'll repost my reply to your paragraph in your talk page which shows it is you who should apologize to the posters in this page and the practicing readers who have teachers. Your post was:
B9 hummingbird hovering: "I truly feel sorry that you have misunderstood not only my intention but my work and what I have written. You have totally misunderstood and I realize that is because you do not wish to understand. You have specific ideas about Ancestors that I do not share. You say Padmasambhava did not have parents nor children well, frankly, there are sources that say that he did have children and parents of flesh and blood. You have very little knowledge which is apparent by how you communicate. I wish you well in your sadhana. You need teachers. I have had many and do no longer. 16:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)"
Being one, I stated the belief of Nyingmas on Padma's parents. In fact it doesn't matter if he had parents or not or other alternatives which is well beyond you. Unlike you I know exactly what I'm talking about. You do not say who claims they know Padma's parents because you don't know. It is the Bons. You are also totally ignorant that a growing minority within Bon are also now saying he was lotus born but that is another whole area the details of which you have not heard. On him having children it is another whole story.
I did not state anything about ancestors and merely rejected your fantasies by our tradition and also simple linear logic. You do not need teachers any more because you are engaging in one of the greatest evils in Kaliyuga by destroying tantra and terma. Relatively you do not understand the seriousness of your situation. Ultimately you know exactly what is happening but it is masked from your consciousness and your case is much more complex. Messing with tantras by some beginner who claims he has gone beyond teachers is worse than currently being in hells for eons as any teacher would tell you.
Two large sets of points were put to you in my two posts. You did not address them in any way and in fact ignored nearly all of them.
I am removing your paragraph in the topic as two people complained that against Wiki rules you have inserted fantasies. Your reply was that as a practitioner your opinion and fantasy was proof enough and no reference to any academic or historical citation or even anyone else thinking so is required! Most of us have Shitro empowerment and practice it so even by your crazy anti-Wiki standards and non-academic approach, the majority should rule. I like to see you undo my edit and reinforce your ego when you know you are indulging your ego at the cost of damaging tantra and going up against Wiki rules by conjecturing wildly merely because you are a practitioner and not even acknowledging that we are too. This shows who is truly open to the charges in your last post. Your proliferating fantasies with no reference shows you are not even a bright enemy of tantra and terma and really not a problem except to yourself. The rest I leave for Wiki archives and you I leave to the mighty protectors of Shitro and Dzogchen as I feel you are headed for a much worse fate. I'll pray for you as eons are long periods. As I said, good luck. Occasionaled ( talk) 23:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Section: "Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" was removed because:
1- Despite many protestations the individual did not state any references or citations.
2- He stated that his fantasy speculation was valid because he practiced this tantra!
3- He ignored the point that the protesters are practitioners too even if that crazy and non-academic standard was to be taken seriously.
4- Majority of Tibetan Buddhist masters would dismiss his claims that at his level he is beyond the need for teachers as that basically amounts to declaring oneself a saint.
5- "Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" and the flimsy unbalanced justifications would mean anyone could state any fantasy within a Wiki article just because one felt like doing so! No one with a moderately balanced mind would have claimed that.
"Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" without references and justified on the basis of a person's mere feelings despite protests shows the user should be watched closely regarding his activities on various Wiki projects. Occasionaled ( talk) 00:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Following paragraph by 'B9 hummingbird hovering' was removed:
"Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents: In the Hindu religion, the term śraddhā denotes the ritual that one performs to pay homage to one’s deceased ancestors ( Pitri), and especially to one’s deceased parents, either on the anniversary of their death or during the dark fortnight called Pitri Paksha (which usually falls in September or October). Though Zhitro is not ancestor worship per se it is a spiritual practice that involves former relatives, preceptors and ancestors. A comparative analysis of Zhitro, Shraddha, Chöd and Sutric Buddhist charnel ground meditations would be informative."
This was due to various reasons stated in the talk page and mainly his refusal to provide any references or citations for his wild speculative claims apart from his feelings as a tantric who has gone beyond the need for teachers! And dismissing the protests of other tantrics of the same practice regarding his breaking of Wiki rules as well as dismissal of basic academic standards! Any further editing war by 'B9 hummingbird hovering' will be taken to the admins noticeboard for final judgment and secondly to archive the case and put him on a watch-list and monitor his activities on various Wiki projects. Occasionaled ( talk) 11:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Complaint lodged on the admin noticeboard and awaiting their judgment on the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Wiki_Cult_Task-force_and_User:B9_hummingbird_hovering_Breaking_Basic_Academic_and_Wiki_Rules Occasionaled ( talk) 17:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Please see my talk page on how many editors also verified how B9 hummingbird hovering is a known problem editor with their comments on the Admin Notice-Board. Occasionaled ( talk) 07:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I see that, on 2 June 2010, B9 hummingbird hovering was indefinitely (permanently?) blocked. Watch out though - such beings often take rebirth on Wikipedia in some other guise after some time in the bardo. Chris Fynn ( talk) 16:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to change around things in the lead paragrraph a little as Karma Lingpa's Zhitro (aka Karling Zhitro) is only one of several Zhitro terma revalations in Tibetan. The so-called "Tibetan Book of the Dead" or Liberation on Hearing is also only one, fairly small, section of the Karling Zhitro which, in it's most extensive form, fills two large Tibetan volumes (most of which is found in Gyurme Dorje's translation published by Penguin Viking. There are several other Zhitro traditions including those revealed by Jatson Nyingpo (which is just as well known in Tibet), and Pema Lingpa (Kunzang Gongdu Zhitro) which is used in Bhutan. There are also Zhitro texts in the Bön tradition. Henk Blezer's PhD thesis "Kar gling khro, A Tantric Buddhist Concept (published in CNWS publications, Vol.56, Leiden 1997) and Bryan Cuevas' study The Hidden History of the Tibetan Book of the Dead should be important sources for this article - and anyone who wants to improve this article should read those (along with Gyurme Dorje's tanslation of the complete Tibetan Book of the Dead). It is also important to understand that all the Zhitro traaditons really go back to the Guhyatgharbha Tantra - and much further than that to the Abhidharma (the wrathful and peaceful dieties are to be understood as the purified forms of the various dharmas listed in the Abhidharma tradition). In one way, the Zhitro tradition is kind of a tantric / visual Abhidharma. Interestingly in some Theravada coutries the texts of the Abhidharma are read out following a person's death in much the same ay as the Zhitro texts are read out in Tibet. Anyway I only have time to fix the opening sentances a bit. Hopefully someone else can take up the task of improving the article. Chris Fynn ( talk) 17:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
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This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
To the
energetic body of the human
bodymind the 72,000
nadi of which are resonating with distinct and unique combinations of
bija seed syllables which are deities,
Thoughtform. These are the Peaceful and Wrathful deities of Zhitro Bardo practice by any other name. We are, indeed all
Sentient Beings with their energetic system are metaphorically
prayer flags,
mani stones and
prayer wheels whenever in any subtle or more tangible body. The Nada sounds through our energetic system. Outer, Inner and Secret mantra.
B9 hummingbird hovering (
talk •
contribs) 07:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
PS: Nadi/Nada Sanskrit
etymons. Crystal clear.
This right here: "A comparative analysis of Zhitro and Chöd would be informative." is pretty much the definition of OR. B9, if you can find references where this parallel has been discussed, please provide and include them, otherwise I think this last section needs to be removed. Thank you. Zero sharp ( talk) 22:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi B9 hummingbird hovering,
I think if we ask the participants of this page who is abrasive they might come up with an alternative candidate. As to me being ignorant and your points. Nyingma Terma certainly do not come from your ancestors. And in the view of those Tibetan Buddhists from all four schools who practice them they come from Padmasambhava. Who did not have children nor parents! You are not providing any historical or academic reference. Furthermore in the view of Nyingma school masters you are proliferating your own ideas into not only the dharma but more seriously terma which involves destroying their effectiveness and samayas and protectors. The corruption of terma by out of control egos is a large area of study within Nyingma and Kagyu and is highly warned against as one of the worst things a sentient being can do. It would be acceptable to me if you provided references to books or journals or papers by scholars, secular or not, but you are merely indulging in personal fantasies and when people ask for citations or references you simply erase their edits with arrogance.
Chod too has nothing to do with ancestor worship or funerary rites as such. It is equally effective in places where there has not been a recent dead body or disposal for a long time. And not just charnel grounds or cemeteries which are currently in use. Furthermore it is not limited to those. Some of the most effective Chod power places as laid out in local guides by Chod masters have and never had anything to do with corpses. The tradition of Chod power places is a large area of expertise too. Theoretically too Chod is not to do with benefiting the spirits of ancestors as you misrepresent. That would mean Pretas of the deceased and we know Pretas are only one of many forms dead ancestors, specially of practitioners, can take. It is to do with generating various beings of the eight classes and subclasses, not just Pretas, and then offering oneself and ultimately one's ego, the only big problem in smasara we suffer from, to them. They are mainly the demonic classes. Relatively we hope to bring the benefit of dharma to them and pacify them which makes most of them run away unless the practitioner is egoistic himself. That is if he or she is successful to generate them with enough ferocity. Ultimately the aim in Chod is non-duality. There are also secret meanings. So Chod is far from what you try to misrepresent too.
This is the typical way western New-agers who are non-academic and not experts on the subject behave and abuse Tibetan Buddhism. It is not inter-dependent origination or non-duality. It is known as proliferation and in the case of terma as breaking it's samayas and corrupting it. Technically according to Wiki rules if you can not find references for your wild speculations, the edits of the people you undid in protest should also be restored. Any fake terton calls himself a poet and indulging in non-duality. But most of them are not foolish enough to justify it by calling it pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising which means admitting the guilt of proliferating terma and corruption of it's samayas. I can go on forever debating but I see no point. The main point is I don't think anyone can stop your runaway conjecturing activity but let me tell you that it is extremely serious. You need to go to a great master and show all that you have spread in the name of dharma and tantra and terma and ask what to do. Good luck. Occasionaled ( talk) 19:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi B9 hummingbird hovering,
I'll repost my reply to your paragraph in your talk page which shows it is you who should apologize to the posters in this page and the practicing readers who have teachers. Your post was:
B9 hummingbird hovering: "I truly feel sorry that you have misunderstood not only my intention but my work and what I have written. You have totally misunderstood and I realize that is because you do not wish to understand. You have specific ideas about Ancestors that I do not share. You say Padmasambhava did not have parents nor children well, frankly, there are sources that say that he did have children and parents of flesh and blood. You have very little knowledge which is apparent by how you communicate. I wish you well in your sadhana. You need teachers. I have had many and do no longer. 16:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)"
Being one, I stated the belief of Nyingmas on Padma's parents. In fact it doesn't matter if he had parents or not or other alternatives which is well beyond you. Unlike you I know exactly what I'm talking about. You do not say who claims they know Padma's parents because you don't know. It is the Bons. You are also totally ignorant that a growing minority within Bon are also now saying he was lotus born but that is another whole area the details of which you have not heard. On him having children it is another whole story.
I did not state anything about ancestors and merely rejected your fantasies by our tradition and also simple linear logic. You do not need teachers any more because you are engaging in one of the greatest evils in Kaliyuga by destroying tantra and terma. Relatively you do not understand the seriousness of your situation. Ultimately you know exactly what is happening but it is masked from your consciousness and your case is much more complex. Messing with tantras by some beginner who claims he has gone beyond teachers is worse than currently being in hells for eons as any teacher would tell you.
Two large sets of points were put to you in my two posts. You did not address them in any way and in fact ignored nearly all of them.
I am removing your paragraph in the topic as two people complained that against Wiki rules you have inserted fantasies. Your reply was that as a practitioner your opinion and fantasy was proof enough and no reference to any academic or historical citation or even anyone else thinking so is required! Most of us have Shitro empowerment and practice it so even by your crazy anti-Wiki standards and non-academic approach, the majority should rule. I like to see you undo my edit and reinforce your ego when you know you are indulging your ego at the cost of damaging tantra and going up against Wiki rules by conjecturing wildly merely because you are a practitioner and not even acknowledging that we are too. This shows who is truly open to the charges in your last post. Your proliferating fantasies with no reference shows you are not even a bright enemy of tantra and terma and really not a problem except to yourself. The rest I leave for Wiki archives and you I leave to the mighty protectors of Shitro and Dzogchen as I feel you are headed for a much worse fate. I'll pray for you as eons are long periods. As I said, good luck. Occasionaled ( talk) 23:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Section: "Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" was removed because:
1- Despite many protestations the individual did not state any references or citations.
2- He stated that his fantasy speculation was valid because he practiced this tantra!
3- He ignored the point that the protesters are practitioners too even if that crazy and non-academic standard was to be taken seriously.
4- Majority of Tibetan Buddhist masters would dismiss his claims that at his level he is beyond the need for teachers as that basically amounts to declaring oneself a saint.
5- "Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" and the flimsy unbalanced justifications would mean anyone could state any fantasy within a Wiki article just because one felt like doing so! No one with a moderately balanced mind would have claimed that.
"Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents" without references and justified on the basis of a person's mere feelings despite protests shows the user should be watched closely regarding his activities on various Wiki projects. Occasionaled ( talk) 00:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Following paragraph by 'B9 hummingbird hovering' was removed:
"Cross-cultural correlates and possible antecedents: In the Hindu religion, the term śraddhā denotes the ritual that one performs to pay homage to one’s deceased ancestors ( Pitri), and especially to one’s deceased parents, either on the anniversary of their death or during the dark fortnight called Pitri Paksha (which usually falls in September or October). Though Zhitro is not ancestor worship per se it is a spiritual practice that involves former relatives, preceptors and ancestors. A comparative analysis of Zhitro, Shraddha, Chöd and Sutric Buddhist charnel ground meditations would be informative."
This was due to various reasons stated in the talk page and mainly his refusal to provide any references or citations for his wild speculative claims apart from his feelings as a tantric who has gone beyond the need for teachers! And dismissing the protests of other tantrics of the same practice regarding his breaking of Wiki rules as well as dismissal of basic academic standards! Any further editing war by 'B9 hummingbird hovering' will be taken to the admins noticeboard for final judgment and secondly to archive the case and put him on a watch-list and monitor his activities on various Wiki projects. Occasionaled ( talk) 11:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Complaint lodged on the admin noticeboard and awaiting their judgment on the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Wiki_Cult_Task-force_and_User:B9_hummingbird_hovering_Breaking_Basic_Academic_and_Wiki_Rules Occasionaled ( talk) 17:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Please see my talk page on how many editors also verified how B9 hummingbird hovering is a known problem editor with their comments on the Admin Notice-Board. Occasionaled ( talk) 07:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I see that, on 2 June 2010, B9 hummingbird hovering was indefinitely (permanently?) blocked. Watch out though - such beings often take rebirth on Wikipedia in some other guise after some time in the bardo. Chris Fynn ( talk) 16:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to change around things in the lead paragrraph a little as Karma Lingpa's Zhitro (aka Karling Zhitro) is only one of several Zhitro terma revalations in Tibetan. The so-called "Tibetan Book of the Dead" or Liberation on Hearing is also only one, fairly small, section of the Karling Zhitro which, in it's most extensive form, fills two large Tibetan volumes (most of which is found in Gyurme Dorje's translation published by Penguin Viking. There are several other Zhitro traditions including those revealed by Jatson Nyingpo (which is just as well known in Tibet), and Pema Lingpa (Kunzang Gongdu Zhitro) which is used in Bhutan. There are also Zhitro texts in the Bön tradition. Henk Blezer's PhD thesis "Kar gling khro, A Tantric Buddhist Concept (published in CNWS publications, Vol.56, Leiden 1997) and Bryan Cuevas' study The Hidden History of the Tibetan Book of the Dead should be important sources for this article - and anyone who wants to improve this article should read those (along with Gyurme Dorje's tanslation of the complete Tibetan Book of the Dead). It is also important to understand that all the Zhitro traaditons really go back to the Guhyatgharbha Tantra - and much further than that to the Abhidharma (the wrathful and peaceful dieties are to be understood as the purified forms of the various dharmas listed in the Abhidharma tradition). In one way, the Zhitro tradition is kind of a tantric / visual Abhidharma. Interestingly in some Theravada coutries the texts of the Abhidharma are read out following a person's death in much the same ay as the Zhitro texts are read out in Tibet. Anyway I only have time to fix the opening sentances a bit. Hopefully someone else can take up the task of improving the article. Chris Fynn ( talk) 17:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Zhitro. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
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).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:23, 21 July 2016 (UTC)