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The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konia, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia. At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration
The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:
I know Zengi himself began as Atabeg of Mosul, but is it correct to use "Atabeg" as the title for all Zengid rulers? john k 18:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The word "Zangi" is Persian and means "black" or, in this case, "African". The dynasty took this name after gaining power in northern Africa. Rendering the term "Zengi" is due to the Turkish vocalic harmony. The founder of the dynasty, Aq Sunqur al-Hajib, did not carry that name. His son was the first to call himself "Zangi", meaning "the African".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.144.211 ( talk) 00:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Zengi means "stirrup" in Ancient Turkish. In modern Turkish it's Üzengi. You can see the word "Zengi" in Codex Cumanicus. a riddle from Codex Cumanicus "Oturğanım oba yer basqanım baqır canaq. Ol zengi." "Where I sit is a hilly place. Where I tread is a copper bowl. The stirrup." BöriShad ( talk) 16:35, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Please find hereafter some coins of the Zengids. Feel free to insert them in the article. PHG ( talk) 19:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
After politely asking for quote from the two source supplied by user:Carinae986, I was told to simply "assume good faith". Since subsequent searches on google and amazon indicate that the words Zengid/Zangid, Turkish and Persian do not show up on page 152 of Volume 1, I see no reason to assume anything. Therefore, I will tag both "sources" as unreliable sources. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 22:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Kansas - the following was posted to my talk page a couple hours ago. Since you made the initial post there I had just assumed you would keep up on it.
"Kansas Bear, I understand your concerns, given the apparent sensitivity of the subject (I know, I spent all day reverting similar things on the Saladin article), but this isn't really a big deal, of course the Zengids were Turkic. The source Carinae gave is one of any dozens of sources that could be given to support the same thing. And Carinae, I guess you're relatively new here, so please excuse us if we seem hyper-vigilant. Wikipedia can be frustratingly arcane sometimes, and with these subjects we get a lot of vandalism, and lots of people trying to make some sort of nationalistic point, so it helps to be as transparent as possible with sources. We're all on the same side here!" Adam Bishop (talk) 22:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
So like Adam said, I'm new here so I'm making an extra effort to not take offense. But the plain fact is that you're asking me to cite something that is common knowledge among people with the relavant background. When you demand to see a citation to prove that arabs spoke arabic, or turks spoke turkic, in the medi eval period, you're like a guy who reads a ww2 article and demands to see a citation to prove that the french spoke french, or the germans spoke german. It's something that most people would understand without having a citation spell it out. Notwithstanding, I provided two citations. For whatever reason, this doesn't seem to have resolved the issue. I'm also overlooking your complaint that the entire text of a 3 volume history of Islam isn't freely and instantly available online. It seems pretty unreasonable to me that you would expect that it would be. Based on your criteria of instant and free access for every single citation, we'd have to dump 90% of the citations on this site. Obviously this isn't a workable proposal. And no I'm not going to type out the whole text either. I know it won't placate you, and in any case I'm not your personal typist. If you want to see the relavant text, what I suggest you do is make a trip to your local library and look it up yourself. Like Adam said, you can find confirmation that Arabs spoke arabic or that Turks spoke turkic in even the most general history of medi eval Islam. Thousands of possible citations are available. I just happened to locate one from my own library.
So look, what this boils down to is that I know something about this subject that you don't, I own and have read a book that you haven't, and you need to just go ahead and give me the benefit of the doubt unless you're willing to go through the extra effort of finding this book yourself. That's what the WP:AGF guidelines tell you to do. I've reverted the page one last time, and if you're still not satisfied, for whatever reason, we'll start the mediation process. If we do, I promise you that my position will be vindicated. I'm familiar with this period, I live right next to a university library, and I don't mind visiting it in order to show - in excruciating, exacting, meticulous, mind-numbing detail - why I'm right on this subject. Carinae986 ( talk) 07:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
You're not much of a researcher. Try looking for the words Arabic and Syria. Carinae986 ( talk) 14:31, 17 December 2011 (UTC) When this is over you'll understand how completely ridiculous you're being. Carinae986 ( talk) 14:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
At the moment I'm not even sure what the argument is. Volume 2 of the Venture of Islam does say that the Turks lived in Persian territories and the languages and cultures intermixed (if not pg. 93 specifically, certainly page 90 and following). Volume 1 talks about the same idea with Arabic and Persian during the initial conquest, which is less relevant to the Zengids. I would suggest that we just copy footnote number 3 from the Great Seljuk Empire article, the quote from Bosworth, which is more explicitly relevant. If the problem is that we don't have a citation that specifically says the Zengids used Persian and Turkish, then I'm sure we could find one, but as Carinae says, it's already pretty obvious, and I don't know whether any author would have gone out of their way to specifically say so. All the Turkic tribes mixed Turkic, Arabic, and Persian titles ("malik-shah" for example), or just used plain Persian titles (the Danishmends for example are a Turkic tribe with a Persian name; Zengi's own name might be Persian; in the list of his titles given by Ibn Qalanisi probably half the words are Persian, like "sipahsalar" which often shows up in Turkic and Arabic titles, etc). Adam Bishop ( talk) 16:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
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The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konia, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia. At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration
The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:
I know Zengi himself began as Atabeg of Mosul, but is it correct to use "Atabeg" as the title for all Zengid rulers? john k 18:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The word "Zangi" is Persian and means "black" or, in this case, "African". The dynasty took this name after gaining power in northern Africa. Rendering the term "Zengi" is due to the Turkish vocalic harmony. The founder of the dynasty, Aq Sunqur al-Hajib, did not carry that name. His son was the first to call himself "Zangi", meaning "the African".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.144.211 ( talk) 00:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Zengi means "stirrup" in Ancient Turkish. In modern Turkish it's Üzengi. You can see the word "Zengi" in Codex Cumanicus. a riddle from Codex Cumanicus "Oturğanım oba yer basqanım baqır canaq. Ol zengi." "Where I sit is a hilly place. Where I tread is a copper bowl. The stirrup." BöriShad ( talk) 16:35, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Please find hereafter some coins of the Zengids. Feel free to insert them in the article. PHG ( talk) 19:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
After politely asking for quote from the two source supplied by user:Carinae986, I was told to simply "assume good faith". Since subsequent searches on google and amazon indicate that the words Zengid/Zangid, Turkish and Persian do not show up on page 152 of Volume 1, I see no reason to assume anything. Therefore, I will tag both "sources" as unreliable sources. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 22:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Kansas - the following was posted to my talk page a couple hours ago. Since you made the initial post there I had just assumed you would keep up on it.
"Kansas Bear, I understand your concerns, given the apparent sensitivity of the subject (I know, I spent all day reverting similar things on the Saladin article), but this isn't really a big deal, of course the Zengids were Turkic. The source Carinae gave is one of any dozens of sources that could be given to support the same thing. And Carinae, I guess you're relatively new here, so please excuse us if we seem hyper-vigilant. Wikipedia can be frustratingly arcane sometimes, and with these subjects we get a lot of vandalism, and lots of people trying to make some sort of nationalistic point, so it helps to be as transparent as possible with sources. We're all on the same side here!" Adam Bishop (talk) 22:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
So like Adam said, I'm new here so I'm making an extra effort to not take offense. But the plain fact is that you're asking me to cite something that is common knowledge among people with the relavant background. When you demand to see a citation to prove that arabs spoke arabic, or turks spoke turkic, in the medi eval period, you're like a guy who reads a ww2 article and demands to see a citation to prove that the french spoke french, or the germans spoke german. It's something that most people would understand without having a citation spell it out. Notwithstanding, I provided two citations. For whatever reason, this doesn't seem to have resolved the issue. I'm also overlooking your complaint that the entire text of a 3 volume history of Islam isn't freely and instantly available online. It seems pretty unreasonable to me that you would expect that it would be. Based on your criteria of instant and free access for every single citation, we'd have to dump 90% of the citations on this site. Obviously this isn't a workable proposal. And no I'm not going to type out the whole text either. I know it won't placate you, and in any case I'm not your personal typist. If you want to see the relavant text, what I suggest you do is make a trip to your local library and look it up yourself. Like Adam said, you can find confirmation that Arabs spoke arabic or that Turks spoke turkic in even the most general history of medi eval Islam. Thousands of possible citations are available. I just happened to locate one from my own library.
So look, what this boils down to is that I know something about this subject that you don't, I own and have read a book that you haven't, and you need to just go ahead and give me the benefit of the doubt unless you're willing to go through the extra effort of finding this book yourself. That's what the WP:AGF guidelines tell you to do. I've reverted the page one last time, and if you're still not satisfied, for whatever reason, we'll start the mediation process. If we do, I promise you that my position will be vindicated. I'm familiar with this period, I live right next to a university library, and I don't mind visiting it in order to show - in excruciating, exacting, meticulous, mind-numbing detail - why I'm right on this subject. Carinae986 ( talk) 07:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
You're not much of a researcher. Try looking for the words Arabic and Syria. Carinae986 ( talk) 14:31, 17 December 2011 (UTC) When this is over you'll understand how completely ridiculous you're being. Carinae986 ( talk) 14:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
At the moment I'm not even sure what the argument is. Volume 2 of the Venture of Islam does say that the Turks lived in Persian territories and the languages and cultures intermixed (if not pg. 93 specifically, certainly page 90 and following). Volume 1 talks about the same idea with Arabic and Persian during the initial conquest, which is less relevant to the Zengids. I would suggest that we just copy footnote number 3 from the Great Seljuk Empire article, the quote from Bosworth, which is more explicitly relevant. If the problem is that we don't have a citation that specifically says the Zengids used Persian and Turkish, then I'm sure we could find one, but as Carinae says, it's already pretty obvious, and I don't know whether any author would have gone out of their way to specifically say so. All the Turkic tribes mixed Turkic, Arabic, and Persian titles ("malik-shah" for example), or just used plain Persian titles (the Danishmends for example are a Turkic tribe with a Persian name; Zengi's own name might be Persian; in the list of his titles given by Ibn Qalanisi probably half the words are Persian, like "sipahsalar" which often shows up in Turkic and Arabic titles, etc). Adam Bishop ( talk) 16:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)