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include www.cuke.com and Crooked Cucumber: the Life and Zen Teaching of Shunryu Suzuki also - dokusan is the Soto term while sanzen the Rinzai
[moving this comment from zen for future use]
There are some errors in text. Dogen was not founder of Soto school, he is the first soto-school ancestor in Japan. Also Rinzai-school was founded by master Rinzai who lived in China. Some generations after Bodhidharma chan divided into 5 major chan shools in China. Only Soto and Rinzai survived into this day.
Zazen is japanese name for sitting meditation (za = to sit). This can include following practises: counting the breath, following breath, koan practize and shikantaza. Shikantaza is this just_sitting practize, pure awareness of this moment.
channa was removed since dhyana was mentioned. Anyone know why channa was mentioned as the root for Zen? Usedbook 19:18 May 7, 2003 (UTC)
In the list of recommended reading, "Zen in the Art of Archery" appears. If the list was more than 5 or 6 entries long, I might not have a problem with that book being there, but I can name ten books, easily, which are more pertinent to Zen. It is an interesting book, but personally I think Herrigel (sp?) was full of s--- and the book has very little to do with Zen per se. I just hate to see someone actually use that list to learn more about Zen and end up reading that book. Marteau
Should "The Zen schools (especially but exclusively Rinzai)" be "The Zen schools (especially but not exclusively Rinzai)"?
Note also that the Rinzai sect places more emphasis on koan practice, while the Soto school places more emphasis on shikantaza - it's a lot more than just whether you face the wall or not 8-)
May be good to add a section on Sanbo Kyodan as this is the dominant school in the West and it is expanding. Philip Kapleau and his lineage are part of this school. See http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.html for the schools and http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVL-Zen.html should definitely be linked.
I just moved all the Zen glossary material to Buddhist terms and concepts. Do they still serve a useful purpose here, or should they be culled? कुक्कुरोवाच 05:44, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Should the page attempt to cover all Zen, or just give an overview and then point on? Also, should Japanese Zen, specifically, be relocated to a new page? Or should a new overview page be created (something ugly like Dhyana (Buddhist sect))? कुक्कुरोवाच 20:20, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Okay, I fixed some grammar and whatnot, deleted some weird statements, and added a little structure. I also removed an extensive quotation from the Platform Sutra, which might fare better under that article, and the following:
From this point of view, Zen is, instead of a religion, rather an undefinable origin, beyond all words and concepts, which can only be experienced on an individual level. In Zen, Prajna, i.e., direct intuitive wisdom, is to Buddhism what Gnosis is to Hellenism and Christianity. All religions originated from more concrete expressions of Prajna, and as such Zen is not bound to any materialist view of religion at all, even not Buddhism. Zen is then the fundamental perfection of awareness in relation to everything existing, and is known by all the great saints and sages of all times. Zazen is then, both a method to bring people to liberation and an expression and realization of the perfection already present in every person.
कुक्कुरोवाच 20:51, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and for the record, I'm fully in favor of someone scrapping this entire article and writing a new one. कुक्कुरोवाच
What are the proofs that Zen Buddhism incorporates Taoist thoughts? Mandel - May 15, 2004
now, but I'll look for it soon and see what he has to say. Thirdreel 01:11, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
Looking at the text again, I can see why this is becoming an issue of debate. Since Taoism is mentioned in the first sentence, a new reader might be led to believe that there's a simple equation, Zen = Buddhism + Taoism, which is of course oversimplifying it. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to remove the mention of Taoism from the first paragraph, and make a section later in the article which discusses Zen and Tao in a little more detail.
I should also mention that "creeping Taoism" can be an accusation. So I really advice to avoid starting a polemic right from the start of the article by presenting a POV as a fact. FWBOarticle 15:53, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Buddhism and Taoism have inflenced each other in east Asia for 2,000 years now. In the Neo-Confucian school you may add Confucian thought to the mix. They treat similar issues, after all. In China, at least, the I Ching and especially Zhuangzi are quite popular reading with many Chan practitioners. As well, in pre-revolutionary days Taoist monks were welcome to stay in most Buddhist monasteries and vice versa. Fire Star 05:30, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A 'clear' reference to the place of Taoism (and Confucianism, which might be another section of this entry) in the development of Chan is the figure of Sengzhao (aka Seng-chao) whose birth is currently believed to be 374CE (though previous scholarship placed it in 383CE) and who lived on the cusp of the development of Chan (he helps structure its birth) when the Mahayana sutras were still being received into China and authoritatively translated. Without going into as much detail as I could, Sengzhao developed a particular fondness for Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu from whose writing Sengzhao learned the classical literary style and rhetorical skills (which influence the translations of key *dear to what will be Chan/Zen* sutras that I'll mention in a moment). Sometime between his 15th and 20th birthdays he was assigned by the 'king' Yao Hsing to work with the learned Indian monk Kumarajiva. Together they translated and re-edited many buddhist texts (that become central to Chan) including the 'Vimalakirti Sutra'. The translations garnered comparisions with the famous neo-Taoist author P'ing-shun, and enjoyed wide distribution within the monastic communities of Hsiao-yao and Lu-shan. For substantiation of this information see 'The Encyclopedia of Asian Philosophy' Oliver Leaman, ed. (Routledge, 2001). This entry: 17 October 2005 MatthewStevenCarlos
Okay, there's something deeply wrong with that. -- कुक्कुरोवाच| Talk‽
I really don't think this recently added link ( Down and Shut Up!) is really relevant. It has a couple things about Zen buddism on the page, but mostly it just seems to be someones almost-blog. I'm removing it, but if anyone disagrees and wants to put it back then here is the link for you to copy and paste. Down and Shut Up! Russco 15:30, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I've removed the "New Age" categorization, as Zen is not at all "new age"; it's a pretty old phenomenon. -- कुक्कुरोवाच| Talk‽ 02:06, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Private sessions with a teacher are not kensho, as the article claims. Kensho is a sudden experience of awakening, of seeing into ones true nature. Private interviews with a teacher are called dokusan.
Is anyone clear on the distinction that the article currently makes between "Zen Buddhism" and "Ordinary Zen"? What are the examples of "ordinary Zen" that we are referring to? I actually have a vague idea myself, but would like to clarify it considerably. Phillip Kapleau alludes to the possibility of contrasting "Zen" and "Zen Buddhism" in one of his books. In Three Pillars he also memorably quotes Yasutani in describing bompu zen, literally "ordinary" zen, which is basically the practice only for its physical and mental health benefits. However, I don't think these are the same ideas as each other, and I'm not sure what the best way, if any, to present them in an encyclopedic format is. - Nat Kraus e 03:17, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Private interviews with a teacher are called dokusan. - "dokusan" is Soto term. "sanzen" is the Rinzai term.
Some years ago a westerner asked attention for the role of Zen and its masters during the second world war. Zen being part of the bushido (with Shinto, Taoism and Confucianism) contributed to the war/warrior spirit of the Japanese. Do you think this should be part of the article?
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
include www.cuke.com and Crooked Cucumber: the Life and Zen Teaching of Shunryu Suzuki also - dokusan is the Soto term while sanzen the Rinzai
[moving this comment from zen for future use]
There are some errors in text. Dogen was not founder of Soto school, he is the first soto-school ancestor in Japan. Also Rinzai-school was founded by master Rinzai who lived in China. Some generations after Bodhidharma chan divided into 5 major chan shools in China. Only Soto and Rinzai survived into this day.
Zazen is japanese name for sitting meditation (za = to sit). This can include following practises: counting the breath, following breath, koan practize and shikantaza. Shikantaza is this just_sitting practize, pure awareness of this moment.
channa was removed since dhyana was mentioned. Anyone know why channa was mentioned as the root for Zen? Usedbook 19:18 May 7, 2003 (UTC)
In the list of recommended reading, "Zen in the Art of Archery" appears. If the list was more than 5 or 6 entries long, I might not have a problem with that book being there, but I can name ten books, easily, which are more pertinent to Zen. It is an interesting book, but personally I think Herrigel (sp?) was full of s--- and the book has very little to do with Zen per se. I just hate to see someone actually use that list to learn more about Zen and end up reading that book. Marteau
Should "The Zen schools (especially but exclusively Rinzai)" be "The Zen schools (especially but not exclusively Rinzai)"?
Note also that the Rinzai sect places more emphasis on koan practice, while the Soto school places more emphasis on shikantaza - it's a lot more than just whether you face the wall or not 8-)
May be good to add a section on Sanbo Kyodan as this is the dominant school in the West and it is expanding. Philip Kapleau and his lineage are part of this school. See http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.html for the schools and http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVL-Zen.html should definitely be linked.
I just moved all the Zen glossary material to Buddhist terms and concepts. Do they still serve a useful purpose here, or should they be culled? कुक्कुरोवाच 05:44, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Should the page attempt to cover all Zen, or just give an overview and then point on? Also, should Japanese Zen, specifically, be relocated to a new page? Or should a new overview page be created (something ugly like Dhyana (Buddhist sect))? कुक्कुरोवाच 20:20, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Okay, I fixed some grammar and whatnot, deleted some weird statements, and added a little structure. I also removed an extensive quotation from the Platform Sutra, which might fare better under that article, and the following:
From this point of view, Zen is, instead of a religion, rather an undefinable origin, beyond all words and concepts, which can only be experienced on an individual level. In Zen, Prajna, i.e., direct intuitive wisdom, is to Buddhism what Gnosis is to Hellenism and Christianity. All religions originated from more concrete expressions of Prajna, and as such Zen is not bound to any materialist view of religion at all, even not Buddhism. Zen is then the fundamental perfection of awareness in relation to everything existing, and is known by all the great saints and sages of all times. Zazen is then, both a method to bring people to liberation and an expression and realization of the perfection already present in every person.
कुक्कुरोवाच 20:51, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and for the record, I'm fully in favor of someone scrapping this entire article and writing a new one. कुक्कुरोवाच
What are the proofs that Zen Buddhism incorporates Taoist thoughts? Mandel - May 15, 2004
now, but I'll look for it soon and see what he has to say. Thirdreel 01:11, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
Looking at the text again, I can see why this is becoming an issue of debate. Since Taoism is mentioned in the first sentence, a new reader might be led to believe that there's a simple equation, Zen = Buddhism + Taoism, which is of course oversimplifying it. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to remove the mention of Taoism from the first paragraph, and make a section later in the article which discusses Zen and Tao in a little more detail.
I should also mention that "creeping Taoism" can be an accusation. So I really advice to avoid starting a polemic right from the start of the article by presenting a POV as a fact. FWBOarticle 15:53, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Buddhism and Taoism have inflenced each other in east Asia for 2,000 years now. In the Neo-Confucian school you may add Confucian thought to the mix. They treat similar issues, after all. In China, at least, the I Ching and especially Zhuangzi are quite popular reading with many Chan practitioners. As well, in pre-revolutionary days Taoist monks were welcome to stay in most Buddhist monasteries and vice versa. Fire Star 05:30, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A 'clear' reference to the place of Taoism (and Confucianism, which might be another section of this entry) in the development of Chan is the figure of Sengzhao (aka Seng-chao) whose birth is currently believed to be 374CE (though previous scholarship placed it in 383CE) and who lived on the cusp of the development of Chan (he helps structure its birth) when the Mahayana sutras were still being received into China and authoritatively translated. Without going into as much detail as I could, Sengzhao developed a particular fondness for Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu from whose writing Sengzhao learned the classical literary style and rhetorical skills (which influence the translations of key *dear to what will be Chan/Zen* sutras that I'll mention in a moment). Sometime between his 15th and 20th birthdays he was assigned by the 'king' Yao Hsing to work with the learned Indian monk Kumarajiva. Together they translated and re-edited many buddhist texts (that become central to Chan) including the 'Vimalakirti Sutra'. The translations garnered comparisions with the famous neo-Taoist author P'ing-shun, and enjoyed wide distribution within the monastic communities of Hsiao-yao and Lu-shan. For substantiation of this information see 'The Encyclopedia of Asian Philosophy' Oliver Leaman, ed. (Routledge, 2001). This entry: 17 October 2005 MatthewStevenCarlos
Okay, there's something deeply wrong with that. -- कुक्कुरोवाच| Talk‽
I really don't think this recently added link ( Down and Shut Up!) is really relevant. It has a couple things about Zen buddism on the page, but mostly it just seems to be someones almost-blog. I'm removing it, but if anyone disagrees and wants to put it back then here is the link for you to copy and paste. Down and Shut Up! Russco 15:30, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I've removed the "New Age" categorization, as Zen is not at all "new age"; it's a pretty old phenomenon. -- कुक्कुरोवाच| Talk‽ 02:06, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Private sessions with a teacher are not kensho, as the article claims. Kensho is a sudden experience of awakening, of seeing into ones true nature. Private interviews with a teacher are called dokusan.
Is anyone clear on the distinction that the article currently makes between "Zen Buddhism" and "Ordinary Zen"? What are the examples of "ordinary Zen" that we are referring to? I actually have a vague idea myself, but would like to clarify it considerably. Phillip Kapleau alludes to the possibility of contrasting "Zen" and "Zen Buddhism" in one of his books. In Three Pillars he also memorably quotes Yasutani in describing bompu zen, literally "ordinary" zen, which is basically the practice only for its physical and mental health benefits. However, I don't think these are the same ideas as each other, and I'm not sure what the best way, if any, to present them in an encyclopedic format is. - Nat Kraus e 03:17, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Private interviews with a teacher are called dokusan. - "dokusan" is Soto term. "sanzen" is the Rinzai term.
Some years ago a westerner asked attention for the role of Zen and its masters during the second world war. Zen being part of the bushido (with Shinto, Taoism and Confucianism) contributed to the war/warrior spirit of the Japanese. Do you think this should be part of the article?