This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Extended content
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Arbitrary header #1Adding the following books to the reading list as they all cover zen topics and are not currently included: Platform Sutra - Huineng Sun Faced Buddha - Mazu Gateless Gate - Wumen Book of Serenity - Wansong Blue Cliff Records - Yuanwu Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching - Dahui Master Yunmen, From the Record of the Chan Teacher "Gate of the Clouds" The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-Chi - Burton Watson The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, On the Transmission of Mind - John Blofield The Recorded Saying of Zen Master Joshu - James Green Radical Zen, The Sayings of Joshu - Yoel Hoffmann Instant zen, Waking up in the present - Thomas Cleary Dogen's manual of zen meditation - Carl Bielefeldt Pruning The Bodhi Tree by Jamie Hubbard ___ Providing a list of known zen masters, including: Baizhang, Foyan, Huineng, Daman Hongren, Bodhidharma, Joshu, Nansen, Mazu, Huangbo, Lin-Chi, Layman Pang, Miazhong, Dahui, Deshan, Sengcan, Daoxin, Dongshan and Huike ___ Dividing zen into the classical zen and the modern interpetation of it by use of different headers. ____ Adding conflicting views, for both the modern and classic works, to keep things neutral. 2A02:A210:2901:C300:AD47:B3D:4079:7B4C ( talk) 17:28, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Ah, the Stanford-page does so. Well, here it is a primary source. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm finding this conversation difficult to follow. One thing that would help greatly is if the user with the unsigned IP address would follow the convention of getting a username and signing their comments with their username. At this point it's not always clear who has said what. Teishin ( talk) 18:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Arbitrary header #2I suggest the conversation would be more productive if we were to examine concrete proposals for changing the existing article rather than dealing with abstract matters regarding sources and personal matters the editors. Teishin ( talk) 18:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Arbitrary header #3
Arbitrary header #4Qouting primary sources to support a mistaken pov is still a form of interpretation. Regarding the use of yulu, c.q. "encounter dialogue" as a source for describing Zen-doctrine, see again Mario Poceski, Mazu yulu and the Creation of the Chan Records of Sayings, in Steven Heine, Dale S. Wright, The Zen Canon: Understanding the Classic Texts (emphasis mine):
Even less WP:OR based on such dialogues. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Header #5, suggestionThere is currently a practice header. The rejection of practice however does not get mentioned there, so I propose another header beneath the practice one with the title "rejection of practice" or "critique on practice" or something similar. Draft: The recurrent "debates" over the intepretation of meditation that mark the history of Ch'an and Zen are justly famous and regularly receive due notice in accounts of the school. Yet there remains a sense in which we have not fully come to grips with the historical character and the religious problematic of the meditation tradition in which they occur. We are often told, for example, that Zen Buddhism takes its name from the Sanskrit dhyana, or "meditation," and that the school has specialized in the practice, but we are rarely told just how this specialization is related to the many striking disclaimers, found throughout the writings of Ch'an and Zen (including Dogen's own), to the effect that the religion has nothing to do with dhyana (meditation). [1] The character 禪, used to transliterate Dhyana, originally meant "to sacrifice to hills and fountains." [2] It is the world of Hakuin Ekaku (1686-1769), who fixed the orthodox Rinzai koan practice and attacked what he called "dead sitting in silent illumination" (koza mokusho) as counter to the Buddhist path and disruptive of social ethics; and it is the world of Mujaku Dochu (1653-1744), who established modern Rinzai scholarship and dismissed Dogen's Zen as "pitiable." This Zen, said Mujaku, simply clung to the notion that the deluded mind was itself Buddhahood (mojin soku butsu) and ignored the transformative experience of awakening ( satori). Dogen "never even dreamt" of the state of satori that was the meaning of the advent of the Buddha, the purpose of Bodhidharma's mission to China, and the message of the Patriarch of karma, or koan Zen, Ta-Hui. [3] Zen followers are not content to pursue Enlightenment through aeons of varied existences inevitably bound up with pain and ignorance, approaching with infinite slowness the Supreme Experience which Christian mystics have described as 'union with the Godhead'. They believe in the possibility of attaining Full Enlightenment both here and now through determined efforts to rise beyond conceptual thought and to grasp that Intuitive Knowledge which is the central fact of Enlightenment. [4] References ____ Is this alright? 2A02:A210:2901:C300:3C4B:2C15:3276:753A ( talk) 14:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I do mind if you "rather hear it from someone else." You don't gain WP:CONSENSUS by choosing with which editors you want to discuss your proposals; you discuss them with the editors who respond. See also WP:OWN. So far, you've been extremely rude and offensive; you're not making it better.
So, altogether: cherrypicking and WP:QUOTEFARM, taken out of context, to promote your personal understanding of Zen. That's not the way to improve this article. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC) I've added some more info, mentioning Dahui's critique of "silent illumination," and his recommendation of it for monastics:
I've also added some info on "post-satori practice," to make clear that Zen-practice does not end with kensho:
References
This should suffice for a concise and neutral presentattion of Dahui's critique, and the role of awakening inactual Zen-practice. The rhetorical side is already being mentioned in the sections on Chan-history and Zen narratives. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:35, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
To learn what key editing terms such as "editorializing" mean Wikipedia has excellent help pages /info/en/?search=Help:Contents . Learning the basics of how to edit Wikipedia before criticizing what other editors have created goes a long way towards helping one make persuasive and valid critiques. Comments such as "rather hear it from someone else" are indeed rude, and such rudeness is indeed a barrier to achieving consensus. Teishin ( talk) 19:55, 16 January 2020 (UTC) Declaring Blofeld's introduction to "Zen Teachings of Huang Po" to be not WP:RS on the grounds that he's an exponent of an "outdated, Suzuki-influenced misunderstanding of Zen" looks to me to be a declaration of editorial bias. We don't get to judge the sources like that. Teishin ( talk) 20:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
John Blofeld may, or may not be regarded as a reliable source; I think it would be better to use a more recent academic source for the history of religious doctrines (see WP:BESTSOURCES). I expect there should be more sources for the message that "Zen followers are not content to pursue Enlightenment through aeons of varied existences ..." (possible enlightenment in this life). Perhaps this can be found in one of the sources used in the Subitism/Zen section. JimRenge ( talk) 22:41, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Side note
Can this person, based on his personal experience, still be considered unbiased enough to stay neutral? Because not everyone draws the same conclusion. 2A02:A210:2901:C300:3C4B:2C15:3276:753A ( talk) 15:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
|
After reading (again) several sources, I have to admit that the observation that classical Chan-texts (seem to) reject Chan-meditation is to the point; yet the conclusion that (the whole) Zen-tradition rejects meditation is incorrect. Those sources, which are up-to-date and well-informed, in contrast to Blofeldt and Watts, explain the logi behind this apparent rejection.
Sharf, Robert (2014),
"Mindfullness and Mindlessness in Early Chan" (PDF), Philosophy East & West Volume 64, Number 4 October 2014, explicitly treats this apparent rejection of meditation practices in Chan-texts. As several authors have explained, the early Chan supported the Buddha-nature doctrine, at first equating this with the
nature of mind, the recognition of the 'observing mind' as the 'essence' of being. Chan texts 'point' to this essence, avoiding any 'indirect' trajectory: "it" is right there, you just have to recognize it. Nevertheless, it's a pedagogical device, "rhetorical purity"; those classic Chan texts too contain references to meditation. McRae and Sharf both note that this "rhetorical purity" created sustained confusion for the Chan-tradition, which exists up to today: how to express doctrine, when this doctrine seems to reject doctrine?
I have added information to Zen#Observing the mind and Zen#Buddha-nature and subitism to explain the doctrinal background of this apparent rejection of meditation in classical Chan-texts. I hope that this suffices. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:15, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
@ Javierfv1212: would you know of any historical (Indian) precedent for pointing-out instruction and the recognition of the nature of mind? Is anything like that mentioned in the dhyana-sutras, or in the (Sarvastivada) Yochacara-tradition? Any relaton with svabhava? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:01, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
There is no section about Zen in popular culture. A section is needed for clarity and as a quick reference to the misconceptions arising from superficial and consmetic adoption of zen based practices as an affectation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.11.82 ( talk) 22:43, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
Interesting, but indeed, a mass noun. See also here. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
-- It could be any version-- is so good!
I just laughed and laughed.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rednblu ( talk • contribs) 13 July 2015 (UTC)
About what? Esteban.Vicenzi ( talk) 08:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
There were very large passages in the "origins" sub-section (under History) which seemed to indicate that proto-Chan was directly influenced by Daoism. While Daoism may have influenced (in quite an indirect manner in most cases) much later Chan and Zen ideas, there is no evidence that early or Proto-Chan was directly influenced by it. The influence of Daoism on Chinese Buddhism was quite limited to a few figures involved in the so called "concept matching" translation efforts. None of this impacted Chan much as far as I have read.
Looking at the leading scholarship on the topic of the origin of Chan (McRae's publications and Greene's "Chan before Chan") will lead one to the conclusion that early and proto Chan were strictly Mahayana meditation movements, and Taoism did not play into it. Indeed, all of the citations and content that I have removed from the "origin" section are all speaking about the influence of Daoism on specific figures like Sengzhao or speaking in a very general sense about Daoist influences. Furthermore, a cursory reading of the earliest sources, like Bodhidharma's Two Entrances and the 'Masters of the Lankavatara' literature etc shows that they are just Mahayana works, nothing about the Dao (the character is used, but it means Dharma, not the Daoist Dao, and the context makes this clear), Qi, Pu or other Daoist terms comes up.
Because of this, it would be wrong to have this massive block of text there which I removed that somehow insinuates Chan came from Daoism. Instead, I replaced it with content discussing the earlier dhyana masters and dhyana sutras, which did have an influence on Chan.
I have tracked the passage from Dumoulin which is cited here as evidence, but he doesn't even provide actual proof that early Chan was influenced by Daoism, he just makes a passing comment (in page 168 of his History). To make matters worse, he is citing the Gateless Gate when he makes his comment, a text from the 13th century!!! I looked at the various passages from Dumoulin and honestly he does not provide much solid evidence for thinking that Taoism influenced Chan, its mainly just statements to the fact without citing actual primary sources (when he does cite some, they are from much later as I said above). Either way, I added a short passage indicating that some scholars do think that Chan was influenced by Taoism and citing Dumoulin specifically.
☸Javierfv1212☸ 21:04, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
"The practice of dhyana or meditation, especially sitting meditation (坐禪,Chinese: zuòchán, Japanese: zazen / ざぜん) is a central part of Zen Buddhism." is verifiably false.
From The Letters of Zen Master Dahui Pujue, pages 19 and 20, ISBN 978–0–19–066416–9:
When it is time to deal with things, just deal with them. When you feel the need to do stillness-sitting, just do stillness-sitting. When sitting, you must not grasp at sitting as an ultimate. At the present time, of the party of perverse teachers, most take “silence-asillumination” stillness-sitting as an ultimate dharma, misleading younger students. I don’t fear making enemies of them. I vigorously scold them in order to repay the kindness of the buddhas, and to rescue beings from the con-men of this end-time of the dharma.
Here are a few brief passages from Dahui texts that explicitly link “engirding mind” and “silence-as-illumination” with excessive sitting:
Preceptor Yantou said: When previously I was on pilgrimage I probed Chan with the honored monks of one or two places. All they did was have students day-and-night “engird mind,” sit until they produced callouses on the rump and until the water in their mouths was drained dry; first they would face Dīpaṃkara Buddha, and, from the black-lacquer darkness in their bellies, they would say: “I keep my Chan sitting safe!”33
The old barbarian Bodhidharma for nine years suffered defeat [i.e., his nine years of sitting facing a wall were a defeat]—what a pity that he was mistaken all that time! The result has been that the followers of “silence-as-illumination” do sitting for years on end.34
They fervently close the eyes and assume the appearance of death. They call it “stillness-sitting,” “mind-contemplation,” and “silenceas-illumination.” In turn they take this perverse view and use it to lead ignorant mediocrities, saying: “If you can attain stillness [in sitting] for one day, that’s one day’s gongfu.”35
There are a lot of texts and quotes that explicitly reject meditation, dhyana and sitting as a means to and end or even as worth anything. While I realize most current traditions mostly don't hold that view, it is what was originally written in the texts (texts of the people who started the tradition of zen) and they made a big deal out of it too. If the quotes above don't satisfy you, I invite you to read the texts yourself, because you clearly haven't. I can also provide more quotes if you are interested, but seeing as there is misinformation on the page, you don't seem to be.
When you feel the need to do stillness-sitting, just do stillness-sitting. When sitting, you must not grasp at sitting as an ultimate.
While the attribution of gradualism, attributed by Shenhui to a concurring faction, was a rhetoric device, it led to a conceptual dominance in the Chan-tradition of subitism, in which any charge of gradualism was to be avoided.[133][note 5] This "rhetorical purity" was hard to reconcile conceptually with the actual practice of meditation,[140][133] and left little place in Zen texts for the description of actual meditation practices, apparently rejecting any form of practice.[141][133][132][note 6] Instead, those texts directly pointed to and expressed this awakened nature, giving way to the paradoxically nature of encounter dialogue and koans.[133][132]
"Regarding this Zen Doctrine of ours, since it was first transmitted, it has never taught that men should seek for learning or form concepts. 'Studying the Way' is just a figure of speech. It is a method of arousing people's interest in the early stages of their development. In fact, the Way is not something which can be studied. Study leads to the retention of concepts and so the Way is entirely misunderstood. Moreover, the Way is not something specially existing; it is called the Mahayana Mind - Mind which is not to be found inside, outside or in the middle. Truly it is not located anywhere. The first step is to refrain from knowledge-based concepts. This implies that if you were to follow the empirical method to the utmost limit, on reaching that limit you would still be unable to locate Mind. The way is spiritual Truth and was originally without name or title. It was only because people ignorantly sought for it empirically that the Buddhas appeared and taught them to eradicate this method of approach. Fearing that nobody would understand, they selected the name 'Way'. You must not allow this name to lead you into forming a mental concept of a road. So it is said 'When the fish is caught we pay no more attention to the trap.' When body and mind achieve spontaneity, the Way is reached and Mind is understood. A sramana [Commonly, the word for 'monk'.] is so called because he has penetrated to the original source of all things. The fruit of attaining the sramana stage is gained by putting an end to all anxiety; it does not come from book-learning."
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A210:BA9:9080:90CB:BEAF:12E3:7772 ( talk) 05:47, 8 October 2021 (UTC)Everyone shut their mouths; no one said a word. Some of them didn’t speak because they knew and some didn’t speak because they did not know. Seeing that no one was going to answer, Shen Hui jumped out from the assembly and said, “I now what it is! It’s the origin of all Buddhas: my Buddha nature!” “In the ranks of the Ch’an School,” said the Master, “you’re nothing but a scholar. You have no genuine understanding.”
This is not an RfC. OP blocked for abuse of our processes. Bishonen | tålk 09:41, 9 October 2021 (UTC). |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Content is not being given it's due weight and I suspect editorial bias, which isn't soothed by the editor's unwillingness to cooperate. Tried DRN but I don't see it going anywhere and would like some neutral input instead of input from people who are invested in the topic in some way. Sorry if I'm doing this too early, but I don't want to spend weeks or even days just to get a simple edit in and don't see DRN or the discussion with joshua jonathan going anywhere atm. Be sure to read everything carefully, it's not an easy topic. I'm 2A02:A210:BA9:9080:90CB:BEAF:12E3:7772 in the discussion above, seems like my ip changed today. 2A02:A210:BA9:9080:B953:3521:CEB7:BBD8 ( talk) 06:59, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
This part the issue:
because dhyana or meditation, especially sitting, is not a central part of zen buddhism, even the article itself contradicts that it is.
So, seeing as only one side of the discussion is being given due weight there, an alteration does not seem misplaced. Feel free to read the full discussion of course, but it's a bit full of trivial stuff regarding the exact discussion and a bunch of insults from both parties, instigated by a frequent editor who is supposed to set an example, so I thought I'd spare you all that. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Extended content
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Arbitrary header #1Adding the following books to the reading list as they all cover zen topics and are not currently included: Platform Sutra - Huineng Sun Faced Buddha - Mazu Gateless Gate - Wumen Book of Serenity - Wansong Blue Cliff Records - Yuanwu Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching - Dahui Master Yunmen, From the Record of the Chan Teacher "Gate of the Clouds" The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-Chi - Burton Watson The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, On the Transmission of Mind - John Blofield The Recorded Saying of Zen Master Joshu - James Green Radical Zen, The Sayings of Joshu - Yoel Hoffmann Instant zen, Waking up in the present - Thomas Cleary Dogen's manual of zen meditation - Carl Bielefeldt Pruning The Bodhi Tree by Jamie Hubbard ___ Providing a list of known zen masters, including: Baizhang, Foyan, Huineng, Daman Hongren, Bodhidharma, Joshu, Nansen, Mazu, Huangbo, Lin-Chi, Layman Pang, Miazhong, Dahui, Deshan, Sengcan, Daoxin, Dongshan and Huike ___ Dividing zen into the classical zen and the modern interpetation of it by use of different headers. ____ Adding conflicting views, for both the modern and classic works, to keep things neutral. 2A02:A210:2901:C300:AD47:B3D:4079:7B4C ( talk) 17:28, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Ah, the Stanford-page does so. Well, here it is a primary source. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm finding this conversation difficult to follow. One thing that would help greatly is if the user with the unsigned IP address would follow the convention of getting a username and signing their comments with their username. At this point it's not always clear who has said what. Teishin ( talk) 18:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Arbitrary header #2I suggest the conversation would be more productive if we were to examine concrete proposals for changing the existing article rather than dealing with abstract matters regarding sources and personal matters the editors. Teishin ( talk) 18:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Arbitrary header #3
Arbitrary header #4Qouting primary sources to support a mistaken pov is still a form of interpretation. Regarding the use of yulu, c.q. "encounter dialogue" as a source for describing Zen-doctrine, see again Mario Poceski, Mazu yulu and the Creation of the Chan Records of Sayings, in Steven Heine, Dale S. Wright, The Zen Canon: Understanding the Classic Texts (emphasis mine):
Even less WP:OR based on such dialogues. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Header #5, suggestionThere is currently a practice header. The rejection of practice however does not get mentioned there, so I propose another header beneath the practice one with the title "rejection of practice" or "critique on practice" or something similar. Draft: The recurrent "debates" over the intepretation of meditation that mark the history of Ch'an and Zen are justly famous and regularly receive due notice in accounts of the school. Yet there remains a sense in which we have not fully come to grips with the historical character and the religious problematic of the meditation tradition in which they occur. We are often told, for example, that Zen Buddhism takes its name from the Sanskrit dhyana, or "meditation," and that the school has specialized in the practice, but we are rarely told just how this specialization is related to the many striking disclaimers, found throughout the writings of Ch'an and Zen (including Dogen's own), to the effect that the religion has nothing to do with dhyana (meditation). [1] The character 禪, used to transliterate Dhyana, originally meant "to sacrifice to hills and fountains." [2] It is the world of Hakuin Ekaku (1686-1769), who fixed the orthodox Rinzai koan practice and attacked what he called "dead sitting in silent illumination" (koza mokusho) as counter to the Buddhist path and disruptive of social ethics; and it is the world of Mujaku Dochu (1653-1744), who established modern Rinzai scholarship and dismissed Dogen's Zen as "pitiable." This Zen, said Mujaku, simply clung to the notion that the deluded mind was itself Buddhahood (mojin soku butsu) and ignored the transformative experience of awakening ( satori). Dogen "never even dreamt" of the state of satori that was the meaning of the advent of the Buddha, the purpose of Bodhidharma's mission to China, and the message of the Patriarch of karma, or koan Zen, Ta-Hui. [3] Zen followers are not content to pursue Enlightenment through aeons of varied existences inevitably bound up with pain and ignorance, approaching with infinite slowness the Supreme Experience which Christian mystics have described as 'union with the Godhead'. They believe in the possibility of attaining Full Enlightenment both here and now through determined efforts to rise beyond conceptual thought and to grasp that Intuitive Knowledge which is the central fact of Enlightenment. [4] References ____ Is this alright? 2A02:A210:2901:C300:3C4B:2C15:3276:753A ( talk) 14:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I do mind if you "rather hear it from someone else." You don't gain WP:CONSENSUS by choosing with which editors you want to discuss your proposals; you discuss them with the editors who respond. See also WP:OWN. So far, you've been extremely rude and offensive; you're not making it better.
So, altogether: cherrypicking and WP:QUOTEFARM, taken out of context, to promote your personal understanding of Zen. That's not the way to improve this article. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC) I've added some more info, mentioning Dahui's critique of "silent illumination," and his recommendation of it for monastics:
I've also added some info on "post-satori practice," to make clear that Zen-practice does not end with kensho:
References
This should suffice for a concise and neutral presentattion of Dahui's critique, and the role of awakening inactual Zen-practice. The rhetorical side is already being mentioned in the sections on Chan-history and Zen narratives. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:35, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
To learn what key editing terms such as "editorializing" mean Wikipedia has excellent help pages /info/en/?search=Help:Contents . Learning the basics of how to edit Wikipedia before criticizing what other editors have created goes a long way towards helping one make persuasive and valid critiques. Comments such as "rather hear it from someone else" are indeed rude, and such rudeness is indeed a barrier to achieving consensus. Teishin ( talk) 19:55, 16 January 2020 (UTC) Declaring Blofeld's introduction to "Zen Teachings of Huang Po" to be not WP:RS on the grounds that he's an exponent of an "outdated, Suzuki-influenced misunderstanding of Zen" looks to me to be a declaration of editorial bias. We don't get to judge the sources like that. Teishin ( talk) 20:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
John Blofeld may, or may not be regarded as a reliable source; I think it would be better to use a more recent academic source for the history of religious doctrines (see WP:BESTSOURCES). I expect there should be more sources for the message that "Zen followers are not content to pursue Enlightenment through aeons of varied existences ..." (possible enlightenment in this life). Perhaps this can be found in one of the sources used in the Subitism/Zen section. JimRenge ( talk) 22:41, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Side note
Can this person, based on his personal experience, still be considered unbiased enough to stay neutral? Because not everyone draws the same conclusion. 2A02:A210:2901:C300:3C4B:2C15:3276:753A ( talk) 15:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
|
After reading (again) several sources, I have to admit that the observation that classical Chan-texts (seem to) reject Chan-meditation is to the point; yet the conclusion that (the whole) Zen-tradition rejects meditation is incorrect. Those sources, which are up-to-date and well-informed, in contrast to Blofeldt and Watts, explain the logi behind this apparent rejection.
Sharf, Robert (2014),
"Mindfullness and Mindlessness in Early Chan" (PDF), Philosophy East & West Volume 64, Number 4 October 2014, explicitly treats this apparent rejection of meditation practices in Chan-texts. As several authors have explained, the early Chan supported the Buddha-nature doctrine, at first equating this with the
nature of mind, the recognition of the 'observing mind' as the 'essence' of being. Chan texts 'point' to this essence, avoiding any 'indirect' trajectory: "it" is right there, you just have to recognize it. Nevertheless, it's a pedagogical device, "rhetorical purity"; those classic Chan texts too contain references to meditation. McRae and Sharf both note that this "rhetorical purity" created sustained confusion for the Chan-tradition, which exists up to today: how to express doctrine, when this doctrine seems to reject doctrine?
I have added information to Zen#Observing the mind and Zen#Buddha-nature and subitism to explain the doctrinal background of this apparent rejection of meditation in classical Chan-texts. I hope that this suffices. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:15, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
@ Javierfv1212: would you know of any historical (Indian) precedent for pointing-out instruction and the recognition of the nature of mind? Is anything like that mentioned in the dhyana-sutras, or in the (Sarvastivada) Yochacara-tradition? Any relaton with svabhava? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:01, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
There is no section about Zen in popular culture. A section is needed for clarity and as a quick reference to the misconceptions arising from superficial and consmetic adoption of zen based practices as an affectation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.11.82 ( talk) 22:43, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
Interesting, but indeed, a mass noun. See also here. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
-- It could be any version-- is so good!
I just laughed and laughed.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rednblu ( talk • contribs) 13 July 2015 (UTC)
About what? Esteban.Vicenzi ( talk) 08:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
There were very large passages in the "origins" sub-section (under History) which seemed to indicate that proto-Chan was directly influenced by Daoism. While Daoism may have influenced (in quite an indirect manner in most cases) much later Chan and Zen ideas, there is no evidence that early or Proto-Chan was directly influenced by it. The influence of Daoism on Chinese Buddhism was quite limited to a few figures involved in the so called "concept matching" translation efforts. None of this impacted Chan much as far as I have read.
Looking at the leading scholarship on the topic of the origin of Chan (McRae's publications and Greene's "Chan before Chan") will lead one to the conclusion that early and proto Chan were strictly Mahayana meditation movements, and Taoism did not play into it. Indeed, all of the citations and content that I have removed from the "origin" section are all speaking about the influence of Daoism on specific figures like Sengzhao or speaking in a very general sense about Daoist influences. Furthermore, a cursory reading of the earliest sources, like Bodhidharma's Two Entrances and the 'Masters of the Lankavatara' literature etc shows that they are just Mahayana works, nothing about the Dao (the character is used, but it means Dharma, not the Daoist Dao, and the context makes this clear), Qi, Pu or other Daoist terms comes up.
Because of this, it would be wrong to have this massive block of text there which I removed that somehow insinuates Chan came from Daoism. Instead, I replaced it with content discussing the earlier dhyana masters and dhyana sutras, which did have an influence on Chan.
I have tracked the passage from Dumoulin which is cited here as evidence, but he doesn't even provide actual proof that early Chan was influenced by Daoism, he just makes a passing comment (in page 168 of his History). To make matters worse, he is citing the Gateless Gate when he makes his comment, a text from the 13th century!!! I looked at the various passages from Dumoulin and honestly he does not provide much solid evidence for thinking that Taoism influenced Chan, its mainly just statements to the fact without citing actual primary sources (when he does cite some, they are from much later as I said above). Either way, I added a short passage indicating that some scholars do think that Chan was influenced by Taoism and citing Dumoulin specifically.
☸Javierfv1212☸ 21:04, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
"The practice of dhyana or meditation, especially sitting meditation (坐禪,Chinese: zuòchán, Japanese: zazen / ざぜん) is a central part of Zen Buddhism." is verifiably false.
From The Letters of Zen Master Dahui Pujue, pages 19 and 20, ISBN 978–0–19–066416–9:
When it is time to deal with things, just deal with them. When you feel the need to do stillness-sitting, just do stillness-sitting. When sitting, you must not grasp at sitting as an ultimate. At the present time, of the party of perverse teachers, most take “silence-asillumination” stillness-sitting as an ultimate dharma, misleading younger students. I don’t fear making enemies of them. I vigorously scold them in order to repay the kindness of the buddhas, and to rescue beings from the con-men of this end-time of the dharma.
Here are a few brief passages from Dahui texts that explicitly link “engirding mind” and “silence-as-illumination” with excessive sitting:
Preceptor Yantou said: When previously I was on pilgrimage I probed Chan with the honored monks of one or two places. All they did was have students day-and-night “engird mind,” sit until they produced callouses on the rump and until the water in their mouths was drained dry; first they would face Dīpaṃkara Buddha, and, from the black-lacquer darkness in their bellies, they would say: “I keep my Chan sitting safe!”33
The old barbarian Bodhidharma for nine years suffered defeat [i.e., his nine years of sitting facing a wall were a defeat]—what a pity that he was mistaken all that time! The result has been that the followers of “silence-as-illumination” do sitting for years on end.34
They fervently close the eyes and assume the appearance of death. They call it “stillness-sitting,” “mind-contemplation,” and “silenceas-illumination.” In turn they take this perverse view and use it to lead ignorant mediocrities, saying: “If you can attain stillness [in sitting] for one day, that’s one day’s gongfu.”35
There are a lot of texts and quotes that explicitly reject meditation, dhyana and sitting as a means to and end or even as worth anything. While I realize most current traditions mostly don't hold that view, it is what was originally written in the texts (texts of the people who started the tradition of zen) and they made a big deal out of it too. If the quotes above don't satisfy you, I invite you to read the texts yourself, because you clearly haven't. I can also provide more quotes if you are interested, but seeing as there is misinformation on the page, you don't seem to be.
When you feel the need to do stillness-sitting, just do stillness-sitting. When sitting, you must not grasp at sitting as an ultimate.
While the attribution of gradualism, attributed by Shenhui to a concurring faction, was a rhetoric device, it led to a conceptual dominance in the Chan-tradition of subitism, in which any charge of gradualism was to be avoided.[133][note 5] This "rhetorical purity" was hard to reconcile conceptually with the actual practice of meditation,[140][133] and left little place in Zen texts for the description of actual meditation practices, apparently rejecting any form of practice.[141][133][132][note 6] Instead, those texts directly pointed to and expressed this awakened nature, giving way to the paradoxically nature of encounter dialogue and koans.[133][132]
"Regarding this Zen Doctrine of ours, since it was first transmitted, it has never taught that men should seek for learning or form concepts. 'Studying the Way' is just a figure of speech. It is a method of arousing people's interest in the early stages of their development. In fact, the Way is not something which can be studied. Study leads to the retention of concepts and so the Way is entirely misunderstood. Moreover, the Way is not something specially existing; it is called the Mahayana Mind - Mind which is not to be found inside, outside or in the middle. Truly it is not located anywhere. The first step is to refrain from knowledge-based concepts. This implies that if you were to follow the empirical method to the utmost limit, on reaching that limit you would still be unable to locate Mind. The way is spiritual Truth and was originally without name or title. It was only because people ignorantly sought for it empirically that the Buddhas appeared and taught them to eradicate this method of approach. Fearing that nobody would understand, they selected the name 'Way'. You must not allow this name to lead you into forming a mental concept of a road. So it is said 'When the fish is caught we pay no more attention to the trap.' When body and mind achieve spontaneity, the Way is reached and Mind is understood. A sramana [Commonly, the word for 'monk'.] is so called because he has penetrated to the original source of all things. The fruit of attaining the sramana stage is gained by putting an end to all anxiety; it does not come from book-learning."
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A210:BA9:9080:90CB:BEAF:12E3:7772 ( talk) 05:47, 8 October 2021 (UTC)Everyone shut their mouths; no one said a word. Some of them didn’t speak because they knew and some didn’t speak because they did not know. Seeing that no one was going to answer, Shen Hui jumped out from the assembly and said, “I now what it is! It’s the origin of all Buddhas: my Buddha nature!” “In the ranks of the Ch’an School,” said the Master, “you’re nothing but a scholar. You have no genuine understanding.”
This is not an RfC. OP blocked for abuse of our processes. Bishonen | tålk 09:41, 9 October 2021 (UTC). |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Content is not being given it's due weight and I suspect editorial bias, which isn't soothed by the editor's unwillingness to cooperate. Tried DRN but I don't see it going anywhere and would like some neutral input instead of input from people who are invested in the topic in some way. Sorry if I'm doing this too early, but I don't want to spend weeks or even days just to get a simple edit in and don't see DRN or the discussion with joshua jonathan going anywhere atm. Be sure to read everything carefully, it's not an easy topic. I'm 2A02:A210:BA9:9080:90CB:BEAF:12E3:7772 in the discussion above, seems like my ip changed today. 2A02:A210:BA9:9080:B953:3521:CEB7:BBD8 ( talk) 06:59, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
This part the issue:
because dhyana or meditation, especially sitting, is not a central part of zen buddhism, even the article itself contradicts that it is.
So, seeing as only one side of the discussion is being given due weight there, an alteration does not seem misplaced. Feel free to read the full discussion of course, but it's a bit full of trivial stuff regarding the exact discussion and a bunch of insults from both parties, instigated by a frequent editor who is supposed to set an example, so I thought I'd spare you all that. |