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100 killed for government forces? It would make the casualties for the pro Gaddafi forces bigger in the past 2 days of skirmishes in Zawiyah than in the whole first battle who lasted 2 weeks and was much more violent with more troops battling from both sides. It put some doubts into the credibility of the claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geromasis ( talk • contribs) 17:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I can see why 100 killed is an unreasonable number. However, I find the government claim of only 2 killed to be equally fishy. The claim of 24 loyalists dead does not seem unreasonable to me. Thoughts? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen ( talk) 13:58, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Two points I would like to talk about:
1) There seems to be a editing war on the current situation of the battle. Some says it's ongoing based on 1 day dated rebels claims from Benghazi others as Gaddafi loyalists and western reporters say it's over and a Gaddaffi victory. Since the only source that can qualify as independant tend to confirm that Zawiyah is under government controls, I think that the article should go in that direction.
2) If we throws out unconfirmed casualties claims, it looks like more as skirmishes than as a battle. Libyan governement even claim it was only an attack by a few dozens of fighters. If the fights are indeed over and if the city completely under loyalists control in less than 2 days, then I don't think it is necessary to have a whole article dedicated to it and even less an article called "second battle of Zawiyah". It could just be noted as an aftermath of the first battle, or as a rebel raid.-- Geromasis ( talk) 22:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The rebels also claimed to had surrounded the loyalists at the square/center. How could the reporters get in if the square was surrounded? :) I agree with Geromasis, the shots that were heared were most likely from the direction of the surrounded rebel force which is still resisting. By the way, the reporter heared only three shots during the whole time he was there, check source. If it is heavy fighting as the rebels claim, wouldn't it be more than three shots? We will know by tomorrow, however I am also sceptical of the rebels claims of success (they are known of exagerating their success). Also, there has been no reports of major fighting from Zlitan for two days now (and no rebel claim of capturing the town). I think the rebel offensive is faltering, but, again, we will know by tomorrow. Also, Germoasis is right, most of the rebels are from Nafusa, not Zawiyah, confirmed by rebels themselves, source here [1]. EkoGraf ( talk) 23:38, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The rebels entering Zawiya are x-Zawiyan citizens who got weapons in Nafusa and stayed there temporarily, and are in part guided by NATO itself. Zenithfel ( talk) 00:10, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Most civilians evacuated Zawiya apperently, especially in the center. Other then two old men, not one non-goverment civilian was seen in Zawiya except in the very eastern parts. http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFN1210191420110612?sp=true Zenithfel ( talk) 00:16, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
It finally seems that the offensive of rebels have been given too much importance compared to their reality due to a lot of reports from rebel spokesmen. Yesterday, Reuters called the "second battle of Zawiyah" skirmishes and it appears that the rebels are not a lot, around 100 fighters and that they had been repelled. Their offensive on Brega yesterday was led by around 130 fighters according to a rebel. And now the reality of the battle of Zliten is questionned too as no big fighting are confirmed.
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE75B0EM20110613?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 Reuters is now calling rebels operations in the West raids, not battles. I think we should merge the second battle of Zawiyah as an aftermath of the first or as line of Nafusa campaign since rebels made their raid from there. Merging the "battle of Zliten" article with the Misrata frontline article seems the most logic choice at this point if we stay with the facts available at this moment.--
Geromasis (
talk) 11:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree, I think both Second Zawiyah, Zlitan, Sabha and Brega should all be merged into one article, something like June 2011 Libyan rebel offensive. Who agrees with this? EkoGraf ( talk) 14:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Or maybe not, because than we will have crossmixing with the fighting on the Misrata frontline. Hmmm, actualy now that I think about it, we better wait a few more days. EkoGraf ( talk) 15:12, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
News coming out today suggests the rebels have definetly been defeated at Zawiyah (rebel spokesman can not be contacted anymore and highway reopened). A second attack at Brega was also defeated this morning with another 23 rebels killed and 26 wounded, yesterday it was 4 dead and 65 wounded. There has been no new information from Zlitan for three days now (another rebel defeat?). Also no new information from Sabha for two days (?). The only place the rebels managed to make some minor gains during the last few days is this morning at Dafniya/Misrata. A Reuters reporter confirmed they managed to advance some 10-15 kilometers up to 10 kilometers from Zlitan. But that's about it. EkoGraf ( talk) 15:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
For what we know by reports:
A group of around one hundred rebels made a raid on Zawiyah and after a few skirmishes were defeated and pushed out of the city in less than 2 days. This is not a major development of this civil war and does not, in my opinion, fullfil the criteria of importance needed for the creation of a new and separated article on a battle.
I read again the article of the first battle of Zawiyah: in the aftermath section all the new events were described perfectly in a few lines. It does not need more really.
I suggest to either delete this page, as everything is already in the first article, or to merge it with the aftermath section of the first article. -- Geromasis ( talk) 16:16, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Zenithfel ( talk) 16:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Geromasis and Zenithfel, this was not a real battle. It looks more like a raid than a battle. Merge to the aftermath section of the original March battle. EkoGraf ( talk) 17:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Hmmm, actualy, why not simply re-name the article? The whole event has been notable and covered a lot in the news. Why not rename it to something like Az Zawiyah raid? EkoGraf ( talk) 17:30, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Merge. The events were too small and short to deserve their own article. The Aftermath section of the first Battle of Zawiyah article already describe the totality of the events wrote here making this page without utility. Small operations should not have their own pages. -- Geromasis ( talk) 18:03, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Rename per EkoGraf. This is a separate battle from the first one and has different implications. It is a very big stretch to claim that these battles are one and the same when they have been separated by so much time and loyalist occupation. Libyan rebel raid on Az Zawiyah or something similar would be a good solution (we can discuss precise names later). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen ( talk) 18:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Comment: Zenithfel and yourself provided elements showing that the raid was led by rebels who were defeated during the first battle and went into exil in the Nafusa Mountain. It would make this operation an true aftermath of their defeat in March. -- Geromasis ( talk) 18:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Rename to Az Zawiyah raid. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Agreement with Geromasis - it is an aftermath. We can expect fighting around Zawiya until the conflict in general ends. Zenithfel ( talk) 19:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose. This is a separete battle. It was short, but it was a battle. -- Ave César Filito ( talk) 19:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Sooooo three oppose merger or are for renaming and two are for merger? EkoGraf ( talk) 21:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Note I count two for the merge, two for renaming and 2 opposed to any change. If it can help to chose, here are Wikipedia guidelines for creating page about new event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28events%29 This event does not meet the guidelines as this is only a footnote in the Libyan Civil War. It does not meet lasting and historical signifiance critera so it should be merged. It is Wikinews worthy, not wikipedia. --
Geromasis (
talk) 21:41, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Zenithfel and Geromasis are for merger. EkoGraf and Lothar von Richthofen are for renaming. EllsworthSK and Ave César Filito are against merging but haven't said if they are against renaming. So, according to the numbers, 4 people don't see it as a battle. So in eather case, the article will not stay the same, it will be eather renamed or merged. So it's up to EllsworthSK and Ave César Filito to say if they don't have a problem with renaming it to just a raid and not a battle. EkoGraf ( talk) 02:35, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose, the battle/skirmish is signifcant enought. Lybia has a population of only 6 millions and few battles in the war have involved thousands. Battle articles of the Falklands War ( Raid on Pebble Island, Skirmish at Top Malo House) and of WWII (example: Battle of Gratangen). So size is not equivalent to relevance. Dentren | Talk 06:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose merge This started three months after the last one ended. Furthermore, we do not know whether this one is really over yet. For all we know something new could come out in a couple days. Lastly, merging just for the sake of eliminating smaller articles can be annoying to readers, who often prefer wikipedia to be more specific with its articles. -- Yalens ( talk) 14:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
PROPOSAL Listen, I rethinked it once again. I think both Second Zawiyah, Zlitan and Sabha should all be merged into one article. Since it is obvious now that all three were raids, and all three ended in failure since there have been no reports of fighting from eather town for three-four days now. But it is obvious they were all co-ordinated, so they were connected. What does everyone think? EkoGraf ( talk) 01:31, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Ok, ok, than just change the name to Az Zawiyah raid or something like that, because it most certainly wasn't a battle. EkoGraf ( talk) 04:33, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
So finally it changed as a raid? My problem is still that we have not enough information to describe this event. All the raids or small operation without strategical importance on Wikipedia are at least very well detailed to make up their lack of real importance. This page has little information about the raid.-- Geromasis ( talk) 16:11, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Per WP:MILMOS#NAME, "raid" is "non-neutral" and "should be used with care". Basically, this means that we need sources calling this a "raid" in order to retain the label. The rationale for originally choosing this term was that raids do not involve intent to capture territory. However, this is contradicted by the article, which states that rebels "managed to take control of the western side". Moreover, I do not see much in the way of similarity between this and some actual raids in the war ( Ra's Lanuf raid, Ghadames raid). This looks to me more like a botched insurrection or uprising than a raid. No sources that I have seen call it a raid, either. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen ( talk) 23:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
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100 killed for government forces? It would make the casualties for the pro Gaddafi forces bigger in the past 2 days of skirmishes in Zawiyah than in the whole first battle who lasted 2 weeks and was much more violent with more troops battling from both sides. It put some doubts into the credibility of the claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geromasis ( talk • contribs) 17:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I can see why 100 killed is an unreasonable number. However, I find the government claim of only 2 killed to be equally fishy. The claim of 24 loyalists dead does not seem unreasonable to me. Thoughts? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen ( talk) 13:58, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Two points I would like to talk about:
1) There seems to be a editing war on the current situation of the battle. Some says it's ongoing based on 1 day dated rebels claims from Benghazi others as Gaddafi loyalists and western reporters say it's over and a Gaddaffi victory. Since the only source that can qualify as independant tend to confirm that Zawiyah is under government controls, I think that the article should go in that direction.
2) If we throws out unconfirmed casualties claims, it looks like more as skirmishes than as a battle. Libyan governement even claim it was only an attack by a few dozens of fighters. If the fights are indeed over and if the city completely under loyalists control in less than 2 days, then I don't think it is necessary to have a whole article dedicated to it and even less an article called "second battle of Zawiyah". It could just be noted as an aftermath of the first battle, or as a rebel raid.-- Geromasis ( talk) 22:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The rebels also claimed to had surrounded the loyalists at the square/center. How could the reporters get in if the square was surrounded? :) I agree with Geromasis, the shots that were heared were most likely from the direction of the surrounded rebel force which is still resisting. By the way, the reporter heared only three shots during the whole time he was there, check source. If it is heavy fighting as the rebels claim, wouldn't it be more than three shots? We will know by tomorrow, however I am also sceptical of the rebels claims of success (they are known of exagerating their success). Also, there has been no reports of major fighting from Zlitan for two days now (and no rebel claim of capturing the town). I think the rebel offensive is faltering, but, again, we will know by tomorrow. Also, Germoasis is right, most of the rebels are from Nafusa, not Zawiyah, confirmed by rebels themselves, source here [1]. EkoGraf ( talk) 23:38, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The rebels entering Zawiya are x-Zawiyan citizens who got weapons in Nafusa and stayed there temporarily, and are in part guided by NATO itself. Zenithfel ( talk) 00:10, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Most civilians evacuated Zawiya apperently, especially in the center. Other then two old men, not one non-goverment civilian was seen in Zawiya except in the very eastern parts. http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFN1210191420110612?sp=true Zenithfel ( talk) 00:16, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
It finally seems that the offensive of rebels have been given too much importance compared to their reality due to a lot of reports from rebel spokesmen. Yesterday, Reuters called the "second battle of Zawiyah" skirmishes and it appears that the rebels are not a lot, around 100 fighters and that they had been repelled. Their offensive on Brega yesterday was led by around 130 fighters according to a rebel. And now the reality of the battle of Zliten is questionned too as no big fighting are confirmed.
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE75B0EM20110613?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 Reuters is now calling rebels operations in the West raids, not battles. I think we should merge the second battle of Zawiyah as an aftermath of the first or as line of Nafusa campaign since rebels made their raid from there. Merging the "battle of Zliten" article with the Misrata frontline article seems the most logic choice at this point if we stay with the facts available at this moment.--
Geromasis (
talk) 11:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree, I think both Second Zawiyah, Zlitan, Sabha and Brega should all be merged into one article, something like June 2011 Libyan rebel offensive. Who agrees with this? EkoGraf ( talk) 14:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Or maybe not, because than we will have crossmixing with the fighting on the Misrata frontline. Hmmm, actualy now that I think about it, we better wait a few more days. EkoGraf ( talk) 15:12, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
News coming out today suggests the rebels have definetly been defeated at Zawiyah (rebel spokesman can not be contacted anymore and highway reopened). A second attack at Brega was also defeated this morning with another 23 rebels killed and 26 wounded, yesterday it was 4 dead and 65 wounded. There has been no new information from Zlitan for three days now (another rebel defeat?). Also no new information from Sabha for two days (?). The only place the rebels managed to make some minor gains during the last few days is this morning at Dafniya/Misrata. A Reuters reporter confirmed they managed to advance some 10-15 kilometers up to 10 kilometers from Zlitan. But that's about it. EkoGraf ( talk) 15:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
For what we know by reports:
A group of around one hundred rebels made a raid on Zawiyah and after a few skirmishes were defeated and pushed out of the city in less than 2 days. This is not a major development of this civil war and does not, in my opinion, fullfil the criteria of importance needed for the creation of a new and separated article on a battle.
I read again the article of the first battle of Zawiyah: in the aftermath section all the new events were described perfectly in a few lines. It does not need more really.
I suggest to either delete this page, as everything is already in the first article, or to merge it with the aftermath section of the first article. -- Geromasis ( talk) 16:16, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Zenithfel ( talk) 16:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Geromasis and Zenithfel, this was not a real battle. It looks more like a raid than a battle. Merge to the aftermath section of the original March battle. EkoGraf ( talk) 17:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Hmmm, actualy, why not simply re-name the article? The whole event has been notable and covered a lot in the news. Why not rename it to something like Az Zawiyah raid? EkoGraf ( talk) 17:30, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Merge. The events were too small and short to deserve their own article. The Aftermath section of the first Battle of Zawiyah article already describe the totality of the events wrote here making this page without utility. Small operations should not have their own pages. -- Geromasis ( talk) 18:03, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Rename per EkoGraf. This is a separate battle from the first one and has different implications. It is a very big stretch to claim that these battles are one and the same when they have been separated by so much time and loyalist occupation. Libyan rebel raid on Az Zawiyah or something similar would be a good solution (we can discuss precise names later). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen ( talk) 18:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Comment: Zenithfel and yourself provided elements showing that the raid was led by rebels who were defeated during the first battle and went into exil in the Nafusa Mountain. It would make this operation an true aftermath of their defeat in March. -- Geromasis ( talk) 18:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Rename to Az Zawiyah raid. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Agreement with Geromasis - it is an aftermath. We can expect fighting around Zawiya until the conflict in general ends. Zenithfel ( talk) 19:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose. This is a separete battle. It was short, but it was a battle. -- Ave César Filito ( talk) 19:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Sooooo three oppose merger or are for renaming and two are for merger? EkoGraf ( talk) 21:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Note I count two for the merge, two for renaming and 2 opposed to any change. If it can help to chose, here are Wikipedia guidelines for creating page about new event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28events%29 This event does not meet the guidelines as this is only a footnote in the Libyan Civil War. It does not meet lasting and historical signifiance critera so it should be merged. It is Wikinews worthy, not wikipedia. --
Geromasis (
talk) 21:41, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Zenithfel and Geromasis are for merger. EkoGraf and Lothar von Richthofen are for renaming. EllsworthSK and Ave César Filito are against merging but haven't said if they are against renaming. So, according to the numbers, 4 people don't see it as a battle. So in eather case, the article will not stay the same, it will be eather renamed or merged. So it's up to EllsworthSK and Ave César Filito to say if they don't have a problem with renaming it to just a raid and not a battle. EkoGraf ( talk) 02:35, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose, the battle/skirmish is signifcant enought. Lybia has a population of only 6 millions and few battles in the war have involved thousands. Battle articles of the Falklands War ( Raid on Pebble Island, Skirmish at Top Malo House) and of WWII (example: Battle of Gratangen). So size is not equivalent to relevance. Dentren | Talk 06:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose merge This started three months after the last one ended. Furthermore, we do not know whether this one is really over yet. For all we know something new could come out in a couple days. Lastly, merging just for the sake of eliminating smaller articles can be annoying to readers, who often prefer wikipedia to be more specific with its articles. -- Yalens ( talk) 14:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
PROPOSAL Listen, I rethinked it once again. I think both Second Zawiyah, Zlitan and Sabha should all be merged into one article. Since it is obvious now that all three were raids, and all three ended in failure since there have been no reports of fighting from eather town for three-four days now. But it is obvious they were all co-ordinated, so they were connected. What does everyone think? EkoGraf ( talk) 01:31, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Ok, ok, than just change the name to Az Zawiyah raid or something like that, because it most certainly wasn't a battle. EkoGraf ( talk) 04:33, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
So finally it changed as a raid? My problem is still that we have not enough information to describe this event. All the raids or small operation without strategical importance on Wikipedia are at least very well detailed to make up their lack of real importance. This page has little information about the raid.-- Geromasis ( talk) 16:11, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Per WP:MILMOS#NAME, "raid" is "non-neutral" and "should be used with care". Basically, this means that we need sources calling this a "raid" in order to retain the label. The rationale for originally choosing this term was that raids do not involve intent to capture territory. However, this is contradicted by the article, which states that rebels "managed to take control of the western side". Moreover, I do not see much in the way of similarity between this and some actual raids in the war ( Ra's Lanuf raid, Ghadames raid). This looks to me more like a botched insurrection or uprising than a raid. No sources that I have seen call it a raid, either. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen ( talk) 23:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
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