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Checked 2 out of 3 sources that were linked for this statement that were available online and none of them actually say this. If it's true, find a source that actually verifies this... if it's not, delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.251.47.104 ( talk) 15:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok no more of the "negroes" and "primitive" nonsense. This is the end of those kind of weasel wordings. If the Arabs found them to be "primitive" then let them speak themselves of it, and even then they have their opinions as well, which are not to be taken as god given facts. This whole word association of "black" and "negro" and "primitive" is over. It's a self-fulfilling stereotype and I'm not having it. Just put the quote in and describe WHY it's so relevant to do so. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 07:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
There is zero sources for this, and in Arabic zanj doesnt mean black, this is a Eurocentric superimposition. Black is not a race and has no meaning zanj is about people from a place called Africa, black, Arabs are black, Indians are black. I have added the sources, Ethiopians where usually called Zanj, it 100% didnt mean black or Negro. Already one user has given a warning about this, i am giving a 2nd-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
they considered them as East African people, as black wasnt the word used. If they wanted to call them black they knew that word, read the Arabic sources when they wanted to say someone was black they didnt say Zanj they used the word for black. The sources for the def are in the article donot vandalise with your racism and generalization and limited comprehension of dif bwt black and African, or East African. again Zanj was never used for people from the congo.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The Arabic word Zanj doesn’t mean black because an English interpretation by some old racist said so, the speakers of the Arabic language used Zanj to refer to a specific group of people from East Africa. They were not called black historically. Does Ethiopian mean black as well? Habasha? by this argument then people in the Congo are habasha, or Zanj. Seek sources from history, a dictionary is a poor case for the historical identify of the zanj when all the cited sources and i gave three say East African, which is far more academic and specific than some loose colloquial term "black" which i might add is a social construction and not a racial ethnic group. Indians are black so is it speaking about them as well? Tamils are black. Your issue has been identified by Zaph i would appreciate this be enough on this word. Your opinion is invalid as you have contradicted the sources, this is not an Arab -English dictionary of terms, it is an encyclopedia, i have little time so excuse the mistakes. Please read black people it is a non-specific and hence academically inaccurate in the context of this article.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Negroid and all these terms are not academic and citing the dictonary of english to Arabic is not valid. If you quote some racist document written by Europeans and their perception it will always come up shallow. even you definition from a dictonary makes no sense in academic application, who is this black race.(there is no black race; black in color, black eyes, black teeth?) who r the Negros?(negro means black in Spanish) see the other users comments, adding content from a racist dictonary is bad taste, considering it is a Eurocentric translation of the word, to fit European perceptions about race. Again the term Zanj would not have been used to discuss South Africans or people in the congo.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This has been discussed and the sources say East Africa, If you have noticed i have placed many sources, not one but many, end your poor POV NOW! As the above user or xuser has noted you seem to have an serious agenda which is not valid here.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
"Zanj" may have associations with the ancient name for the same region, Azania. (During the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, nationalists often referred to South Africa as "Azania", intending to eventually rename the country, but in the event this name was less favoured than simple retention of the previous name, South Africa, after the abolition of everything agrues my case.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Arabic= East African, then East African means black. this is a superimposition not a translation. See more in linguistics, But East Africa doesnt = black, it is a imposed understanding and simplification of a word to fit in with limited lingusitics and racial generalization by Europeans. so Bantu=black, Somali=black, Konso=black, Wolf=black, Indian=black, Punjabi=black. imagine another language saying television and telephone is the same because they have a narrow appreciation of the difference?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
When they called Bilal the black Ethiopian they knew black from Ethiopian, Zanj from Ethiopian and Zanj from blackness of color. Now if you read Troutman you will understand that Arabs had many classifications for people you lump together as black. So Zanj cannot mean simply black because black has no academic meaning. The same sources you list as scholarly are filed with racism and regressive thinking, look up negro and see, the sentence is poorly constructed and make zero sense. What on Earth is a Negro? where is this black race from? this is not the 18th century you know, respect teh editing process and the ref given.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
If the dictonary says Columbus discovered the New World, does that make is correct. The content comes before the who, what is the point in quoting people and sources which are racist in nature, in the same place look up the definition of Black people and see the stink of racism at play, so the docturine of old is valid because it is popular and old? Do we still use negro? in any event Zanj means East African, not East Black, black, negro, nigers, coons or any other racial slur you wish to add.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a joke, look who wrote it : Hans Wehr (1909-1981), German arabist who was professor at University of Münster from 1957-1974. Wehr published the Arabisches Wörterbuch (1952), which was later published in an English edition as A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, edited by J. Milton Cowan. As part of this dictionary, Wehr created a transliteration scheme to represent the Arabic alphabet. The latest edition of the dictionary was published in 1995 and is Arabic-German only. Is he an antropologist? No, look clearly at him and ask what is his persassion this is an outdated source full of racial predjudice of the time, why dont we just quote darwin
by the above discussion this material is valid today because it is old and white and used many many times.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I really don't have the patience or motivation to sort through all your different tangled tirades, but these are the highly-relevant facts:
1) Hans Wehr was not a genetic biologist and did not claim to be a genetic biologist, but had an extremely high degree of expertise in the area of Arabic lexicography (an area in which you appear to have no knowledge at all, and so are ill-equiped to try to refute him). Furthermore, your attempt at "oppositional research" against him is original research, and so does not belong on Wikipedia -- and it's quite pointless anyway, since all the other reasonably comprehensive Arabic dictionaries say basically the same thing as the Wehr dictionary does. For example, I have right here a separate dictionary by Maan Z. Medina which also defines Zunūj as "Negroes" -- and even if you were to turn up evidence that Maan Z. Medina beat his wife, that would do nothing to change the meaning of the word.
2) The early Arabs didn't know very much or care very much about the inhabitants of Congo, or about Tamils, but they knew about as much as they thought they needed to know about nubah, ħabaš, and zanj.
3) It is indisputable that according to all standard scholarly reference works, the word Zanj and its related forms in Arabic were used to refer to black people (not the general color black in the abstract, but black people). Your purely personal attempts to refute the standard scholarly reference works do not belong on Wikipedia. AnonMoos 02:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
well let me help you out, it has a ة at the end, Halaqah means circle you r correct(strict) but in common languages refers to a type of forum or debate, lets have a halaqah. when is the halaqah. i speak english and i dont know what indefinite clause means, doesnt mean i cant speak english. I dont know many linguistic terms 4 english let alone Arabia--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
adding black people is confusing it is a recent social construction, not a historical reality. It also is a broad def, and related to Negro, why do you insist? See the debate on the black people page about the def for this reason it is not accurate to say they were black, because they didnt have black skin, it is unclear what is making them black, the Arabic doesnt even mean black,-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
correct but it mainly meant East Africa, and there used this term for enslaved Ethiopians and enslaved TZ people. Bilal would have been called Zanji and he was habasha. It is very difficult to translate languages because some languages are more complex and things r lostin translation. bilinguial people who are native to both toungues know this. I had this debate about Munto in Kiswhahili, and Muzingi. Nub means gold in Nubian. so again it isnt a racial term but an association, like the word phonecian "red people"-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Halaqah inflammatory header was: No source and constant reversion is vandalism
I have explained how wiki works you are not a native speaker of Arabic as per the above, but the main issue is the lack of refernces and the mistranslation of Zanj to land of the blacks, where in Zanj is the word land, and black. Bilad ul Sudan means "land of the blacks" you are distorting information, there is no valid Arabic contempoary source and your edits are a POV. You tone also violates wiki civil policy by ignoring debate , and using language to suggest you have more knowledge than someone else by calling them IGNORANT and NOT KNOWING NOTHING.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 19:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC) there is zero source for your edits, none of the edits have any refernces and hence are a violation of the principles of wikipedia, i have proved three sources, if you are a student of the language (see admission and proof above) then you should be respectful and not use wikipedia for a POV.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 20:01, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
User AnonMoos has given no refernce inline refernces as per wiki policy. We are suppose to trust the contraversial content. I ask Where is the source in the article ZANJ, show me the source in the article Zanj, how manytimes until you understand this statement, you have zero source. And you have changed my sources, my sources r three and clear, including a book, where are yours. i even gave page numbers, where r yours? What page, where who said? you have mistranslated the Arabic of Zanj and mixed it up with Bilad ul Sudan. you have altered my 3 sources statements, none use the word black, they say East African-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 21:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
No source, the user doesnt understand you must add valid source, inline sources. You cant tell me some book says so, i am an editor not a reader. You are giving misinformation without evidence in the article of where it comes from. you have mangled or confused the def of zanj with Sudan, two different words. Sudan is a place (land of the Blacks) Zanj was a term for some East Africans, excluding groups like the Dinka, an many Sourthern Ethiopian poeple. Zanj doesn mean Black people as this term includes too many ethnic groups and Zanj was not inclusive of these groups.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 22:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
[ [1]] see the long debate, when you add an undefinable term to a def it doesnt give it clarity, it brings in these issues. this debate has not ended black is too complex a term, it isnt a race, it is too broad, it has too many definitions, it is too wide. nothing in the arabic points to the word black, it is what europeans assumed it meant, since they call any non-white people black.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 00:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
One of the supposedly 3 references pointed to a blank page. I removed it. The remaining linked reference, Arab Slave Trade, actually mentioned 'black' as an issue. This was taken from that ref link to dispute the racial bias. Following is a DIRECT copy and paste from the linked ref:
Note that there is mention of "Black" in the last sentence and it is bolded, just as it is there on the page in the reference link about the Arab Slave Trade. Ironic, eh? This statement disputes the dispute! in that there was no mention of black, or was not important in the Arab world, AT THAT TIME. I dispute the dispute box. There are not 3 reference that dispute the mention of 'black' anywhere in the refs provided. There are more people that interpret otherwise. History should not change because it offends someone. In fact, this should be in the article to show that blacks where discriminated against for a very long time, not unlike the Jews. If you deny history, then one cannot learn. Plus the page is very unprofessional looking and it's poorly sourced. Again, the comparison to the Black people article is not the same at all. One is history the other on going and will never stop! Do not let this become like the Black people article, please and it's crazy debate. It's apples and oranges. Jeeny
Hey guys, remember while you're debating that the term in question here is how it was used in medieval times, not necessarily the Modern Standard Arabic definition, which may differ. While they are pretty close, MSA != Qur'anic Arabic or Medieval Arabic (or Medieval attempts to emulate Qur'anic Arabic, which are usually not as close as MSA to Qur'anic, actually). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 07:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Sudan, Habash, Nubian, (Tanwir al-Gabbash fi fasl al Sudan wa Habash) the Arabic text seperate the two, White people collapse eveyone. Here is another word Haratin and Bidan and Abid (which is used for Africans, but it doesnt mean black it means slave, so to translate it as black people is offesnsive and wrong). So what is the point of an academic encyclopedia that just says "blacks" for all of these term? all these different words which are used in specific ways. Even today in Egypt they dont say Sudan to mean Ethiopian, or Nubian to mean Uganda.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 11:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I would advise that this silly debate end. Xmas girl your politics on this subject are poorly informed at best. See talk page on Black people YOM i would advise dont feed it. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 09:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That's nice. How does it affect the fact that every Arabic dictionary says that the word Zanj زنج does actually mean what you keep saying that it doesn't mean? AnonMoos 10:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
leave it alone my arabic dictonary doesnt say that. Arabic-Amharic. or the Arabic-French. or the Arabic-Hausa. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 10:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
black is not an enclyopedic definition of a people, so lets not bring a controversial term into another controversial article. U r then imposing the subjectivity of a term Black people into this article. These terms like white people are unencyclopedic in historical context. Take a look at any African section. Black African is a offensive term. They are called Ethiopians, Malians, Fulani, Hausa. not one lumped race. Again, terms which are unclear, shouldnt be used as Indians are black and Arabs def didnt mean them. English speakers pollute history when they impose westernize terms on other peoples words. See Semantic drift.& u can agrue the other point with yourself as i have advised editors not to engage it as it is called trolling.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 14:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
No one (outside of a few Afrocentrics) considers Indians to be black anymore. That was just part of the black power movement where all dark skinned people were briefly calling themselves black in a few places, but for the most part the term black is only for Africans. This is even reflected in the U.S. census and U.S. law which only defines Africans South of North Africa as black (Indians are not considered black on any census). In fact even Nubians have a tough time being considered black by U.S. law [5] just as Nubians had a tough time being considered zanj. Yes it may be offensive to lump all the dark skinned peoples of Africa into a single category (especially the non-hybridized ones), but if that's what the Arabs did, that's what we must report. And the term used for dark-skinned peoples of specifically African ancestry is black. This is not nearly as offensive as alternative terms like negroid. Christmasgirl
I am warning you against your vandalism and original research. I dont care about if you and mr man above disagree. ur not the concensus. U dont need an agreement when sources are misquoted, or uncited content is added. read teh rules. I suggest you assume good faith and return my content. As you can agree with bad decisions but no where can you violate my sources, or add content which i have clearly argued against. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 14:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to fill in some of the "citation needed" gaps with references to such works as "Race and Slavery in the Middle East" by Bernard Lewis ( ISBN 0-19-506283-3) and "The Negative Images of Blacks in some Medieval Iranian Writings" by Minoo Southgate (Journal of of the Society for Iranian Studies, Vol XVII, Winter 1984 issue, pp. 3-36), but there's little point in even starting this effort as long as User:Halaqah continues to insist on garabling this article in order to pretend that the Arabic word Zanj زنج (and related forms deived from the same triliteral root) don't mean what every Arabic dictionary says that they mean! AnonMoos 22:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
East African however is not disputed. U can run on all day long, I speak Arabic, And no volume of people like you and your friend will change the facts, 3 sources do not say this. I looked it up in my Arabic English dic it didnt say this, nor in Wolof-Arabic dict. Wolf people speak Arabic much longer than Germans by the way. I developed these articles so end your riduclous claims i am blocking it when i added most of the content and references here, if you dont know the topic step back. strange no one else says this when i developed all the other ethnic group cats. And you suspecious support for your friend. I block original research and you adding terms which are hight controversial, I also developed the Black people page. Keep adding this content and i will keep removing it. Black African is an offensive term. reply 2 my arguments or dont reply at all. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 17:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
How much of this content was added by me and Yom? So intresting observation. All of the nonsense about Land of the Blacks that the above user added has been deleted by another user as inaccurate. Funny isnt it. The same content that i disputed is now down to 2 words. Why dont you insert land of the blacks again? thats what u were fighting for last time? Where are the sources. Ohh, Guess what the only references in this article are the ones i have added. So how is developing this topic? Note i also developed Black people-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 18:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Please use this page to discuss only this topic. ALl content which is directed to this user, which has nothing to do with Zanj can be deleted from this page. This is not a forum for exchange. Specifically discuss this topic,, the pending dispute. Follow the policy. If you make a comment, use the policy of wiki such as original research? etc, to validate your argument. If you continue to post forum like nonesense it will be stricked out. If you delete tags you will be blocked. And sockpuppets are not allowed on wiki, dont make me look you up.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 21:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
A legal tag has been added. OR is when you use your opinion to suggest content without references to a source which says so. "Zanj means black because most people use the word black to mean Africa" OR. Tags cannot be removed until a dispute has been settled. P.sAfrican history is my job.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 18:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Dispute tags are an important way for people to show that there are problems with the article. Do not remove them unless you are sure that all stated reasons for the dispute are settled. As a general rule, do not remove other people's dispute tags twice during a 24 hour period. Do not place dispute tags improperly, as in when there is no dispute, and the reason for placing the dispute tag is because a suggested edit has failed to meet consensus. Instead, follow WP:CON and accept that some edits will not meet consensus. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 22:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
if it does mean this where is the source in the article? y dont my sources say this, y r my sources statements being changed 2 say something they dont.p.s ii hve a degree from soas, so it is not a hobby topic. zanj is a complex term, it doesnt even mean people it is a place. it is specific not general-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 03:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
^ "The African Diaspora in the Mediterranean Lands of Islam". "John Hunwick". Retrieved on 2004-10-01. ^ "Zanj Rebellion". "Owen 'Alik Shahadah". ^ a b "Hidden Iraq". "William Cobb".
now opinions and lay thinking is or, my added content is from three sources. wiki works on sources not feelings, or single sources. germanic tribes = white people is not a very encycolpedic way to discuss germanic people. yes they r white people, but germanic makes it a specific kind of white person.
please read jstor zanj it shows the complexity of the term, this article doesnt say black people. the issue is not all black people would be classified as zanj.
going deeper, rushton refers to the "habesha and zanj", now everyone knows ethiopian r black people so y do rushton and Arabs use two terms for one race? (if rushton is correct) a free ethiopian in Arabia would have been called Habaesha not Zanj according to rushton. i am not a lay person on this topic, and i am sick of African history being treated as some "any old thing they all black", see the above plethora of terms used to describe African people, most actually mean Slave. unless Slave = black people i fail to c the translation. this is the racism. zanj = slave = black people.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 03:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
now take a look at the work i have done on wiki, developing pages from nada. Why some focus on my edits look at the current state of this page 5 months later. I have gone and come back and there is NO DEVELOPMENT. read the above and ask why dont you focus on that!-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 01:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Now that`s what I call falsification of history. Over some period of time I have read first: The Zanj uprising against their arab/ muslim slave masters. Then second: The Zanj-uprising was supported by the Shia-muslims. And now third: The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans.
I read kiswahali with difficulty ( sw:Etimolojia ya Neno Zanzibar), but Zanguebar seem to be old european (via portuguese) word for zanj, it is not ? Vincnet ( talk) 14:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The proper IPA for this is Zunj OR Zinj -- Prince jasim ali ( talk) 15:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
A source is quoted in the article: It was not a slave revolt. It was a zanj, i.e. a Negro, revolt. To equate Negro with slave is a reflection of nineteenth-century racial theories; it could only apply to the American South before the Civil War."
"All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. On the contrary, some of the people who were working in the salt marshes were among the first to fight against the revolt. Of course there were a few runaway slaves who joined the rebels... Ah yes.-- 178.115.212.185 ( talk) 20:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Per early historian and geographer like Yaqut al-Hamawi on his book made a distinction between Berber people of Maghreb and those of east Africa, he wrote in his book Mu'jam Al-Buldan [6], 173 quoted "Mogadishu is a city located on the outskirts of the land of Zinj, on the land of Berbirah south of Yemen, and these Berber are different from those of Maghreb, these people are black similar to Zanj and look like an intermediate race between Habesha and Zanj". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.44.160 ( talk) 10:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the over-quotation template from contemporary descriptions, because that section had three quotes, of which at least two were necessary to give a full sense of the variety in use of the term. The template mainly appears to be a legacy of the debates over the identification of "Zanj" with "black" above; as these debates appear to have been resolved, the template no longer seems necessary nor consensual. Bernanke's Crossbow ( talk) 05:19, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
What is written here about the etymology is kind of weird. These seem to be superficial sources written by Europeans with little knowledge. There is no doubt that Zanj is derived from the Persian word Zang, which literally means "rust", also in modern day Persian. I speak Persian. When you add an -i suffix, it becomes an adjective. So "Zangi" literally means "rusty". The Arabic language does not know the G sound which is why Arabs pronounce it Zanj instead of Zang. References to that etymology can be found in wiktionary, see: زنجي - Wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%8A), زنگی - Wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D9%86%DA%AF%DB%8C#Persian), زنگ - Wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D9%86%DA%AF#Persian) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.233.35.210 ( talk) 01:32, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
This article is literally crap. The claims in it are absolute rubbish - this has to be one of those useless articles that give Wikipedia a very bad name. Not interested in arguments and lawyering and so on - anyone reading this should go to the Britannica and look up the equivalent article.
According to Dr. Felix Chami, archaeologist and professor at Dar es Salaam University in his co-edited book - Southern Africa and Swahili World, Zanj does not mean black. He says " Following my detailed discussion of the word Zanj in my co-edited book called Southern Africa and Swahili World (you can find it with African Books Collective)...it seems now the word Zanj or Azania or Zangion had nothing to do with the colour of people or even slavery the way the first one has been conceptualised. What is in those words is the word 'Za' or 'Zi' and ancient Bantu word for water-oceans or lakes, and another word 'nchi' or 'nji' another Bantu word meaning country or settlement respectively. The people of the coast of East Africa identified themselves with the 'Indian Ocean' which was then known as 'Za' and hence the people of the country or settlement of 'Za' and hence 'Zanchi' or 'Zanj'"...I am a Xhosa South African with ancestry going up East Africa to the nothern regions and I concur that Zanj refered to the coast and it's people because in the Xhosa and Zulu languages ZANSI/ZANTSI means coast and/or people of the coast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhaloParihu ( talk • contribs) 15:50, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
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Checked 2 out of 3 sources that were linked for this statement that were available online and none of them actually say this. If it's true, find a source that actually verifies this... if it's not, delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.251.47.104 ( talk) 15:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok no more of the "negroes" and "primitive" nonsense. This is the end of those kind of weasel wordings. If the Arabs found them to be "primitive" then let them speak themselves of it, and even then they have their opinions as well, which are not to be taken as god given facts. This whole word association of "black" and "negro" and "primitive" is over. It's a self-fulfilling stereotype and I'm not having it. Just put the quote in and describe WHY it's so relevant to do so. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 07:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
There is zero sources for this, and in Arabic zanj doesnt mean black, this is a Eurocentric superimposition. Black is not a race and has no meaning zanj is about people from a place called Africa, black, Arabs are black, Indians are black. I have added the sources, Ethiopians where usually called Zanj, it 100% didnt mean black or Negro. Already one user has given a warning about this, i am giving a 2nd-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
they considered them as East African people, as black wasnt the word used. If they wanted to call them black they knew that word, read the Arabic sources when they wanted to say someone was black they didnt say Zanj they used the word for black. The sources for the def are in the article donot vandalise with your racism and generalization and limited comprehension of dif bwt black and African, or East African. again Zanj was never used for people from the congo.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The Arabic word Zanj doesn’t mean black because an English interpretation by some old racist said so, the speakers of the Arabic language used Zanj to refer to a specific group of people from East Africa. They were not called black historically. Does Ethiopian mean black as well? Habasha? by this argument then people in the Congo are habasha, or Zanj. Seek sources from history, a dictionary is a poor case for the historical identify of the zanj when all the cited sources and i gave three say East African, which is far more academic and specific than some loose colloquial term "black" which i might add is a social construction and not a racial ethnic group. Indians are black so is it speaking about them as well? Tamils are black. Your issue has been identified by Zaph i would appreciate this be enough on this word. Your opinion is invalid as you have contradicted the sources, this is not an Arab -English dictionary of terms, it is an encyclopedia, i have little time so excuse the mistakes. Please read black people it is a non-specific and hence academically inaccurate in the context of this article.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Negroid and all these terms are not academic and citing the dictonary of english to Arabic is not valid. If you quote some racist document written by Europeans and their perception it will always come up shallow. even you definition from a dictonary makes no sense in academic application, who is this black race.(there is no black race; black in color, black eyes, black teeth?) who r the Negros?(negro means black in Spanish) see the other users comments, adding content from a racist dictonary is bad taste, considering it is a Eurocentric translation of the word, to fit European perceptions about race. Again the term Zanj would not have been used to discuss South Africans or people in the congo.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This has been discussed and the sources say East Africa, If you have noticed i have placed many sources, not one but many, end your poor POV NOW! As the above user or xuser has noted you seem to have an serious agenda which is not valid here.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
"Zanj" may have associations with the ancient name for the same region, Azania. (During the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, nationalists often referred to South Africa as "Azania", intending to eventually rename the country, but in the event this name was less favoured than simple retention of the previous name, South Africa, after the abolition of everything agrues my case.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Arabic= East African, then East African means black. this is a superimposition not a translation. See more in linguistics, But East Africa doesnt = black, it is a imposed understanding and simplification of a word to fit in with limited lingusitics and racial generalization by Europeans. so Bantu=black, Somali=black, Konso=black, Wolf=black, Indian=black, Punjabi=black. imagine another language saying television and telephone is the same because they have a narrow appreciation of the difference?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
When they called Bilal the black Ethiopian they knew black from Ethiopian, Zanj from Ethiopian and Zanj from blackness of color. Now if you read Troutman you will understand that Arabs had many classifications for people you lump together as black. So Zanj cannot mean simply black because black has no academic meaning. The same sources you list as scholarly are filed with racism and regressive thinking, look up negro and see, the sentence is poorly constructed and make zero sense. What on Earth is a Negro? where is this black race from? this is not the 18th century you know, respect teh editing process and the ref given.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
If the dictonary says Columbus discovered the New World, does that make is correct. The content comes before the who, what is the point in quoting people and sources which are racist in nature, in the same place look up the definition of Black people and see the stink of racism at play, so the docturine of old is valid because it is popular and old? Do we still use negro? in any event Zanj means East African, not East Black, black, negro, nigers, coons or any other racial slur you wish to add.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a joke, look who wrote it : Hans Wehr (1909-1981), German arabist who was professor at University of Münster from 1957-1974. Wehr published the Arabisches Wörterbuch (1952), which was later published in an English edition as A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, edited by J. Milton Cowan. As part of this dictionary, Wehr created a transliteration scheme to represent the Arabic alphabet. The latest edition of the dictionary was published in 1995 and is Arabic-German only. Is he an antropologist? No, look clearly at him and ask what is his persassion this is an outdated source full of racial predjudice of the time, why dont we just quote darwin
by the above discussion this material is valid today because it is old and white and used many many times.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I really don't have the patience or motivation to sort through all your different tangled tirades, but these are the highly-relevant facts:
1) Hans Wehr was not a genetic biologist and did not claim to be a genetic biologist, but had an extremely high degree of expertise in the area of Arabic lexicography (an area in which you appear to have no knowledge at all, and so are ill-equiped to try to refute him). Furthermore, your attempt at "oppositional research" against him is original research, and so does not belong on Wikipedia -- and it's quite pointless anyway, since all the other reasonably comprehensive Arabic dictionaries say basically the same thing as the Wehr dictionary does. For example, I have right here a separate dictionary by Maan Z. Medina which also defines Zunūj as "Negroes" -- and even if you were to turn up evidence that Maan Z. Medina beat his wife, that would do nothing to change the meaning of the word.
2) The early Arabs didn't know very much or care very much about the inhabitants of Congo, or about Tamils, but they knew about as much as they thought they needed to know about nubah, ħabaš, and zanj.
3) It is indisputable that according to all standard scholarly reference works, the word Zanj and its related forms in Arabic were used to refer to black people (not the general color black in the abstract, but black people). Your purely personal attempts to refute the standard scholarly reference works do not belong on Wikipedia. AnonMoos 02:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
well let me help you out, it has a ة at the end, Halaqah means circle you r correct(strict) but in common languages refers to a type of forum or debate, lets have a halaqah. when is the halaqah. i speak english and i dont know what indefinite clause means, doesnt mean i cant speak english. I dont know many linguistic terms 4 english let alone Arabia--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
adding black people is confusing it is a recent social construction, not a historical reality. It also is a broad def, and related to Negro, why do you insist? See the debate on the black people page about the def for this reason it is not accurate to say they were black, because they didnt have black skin, it is unclear what is making them black, the Arabic doesnt even mean black,-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
correct but it mainly meant East Africa, and there used this term for enslaved Ethiopians and enslaved TZ people. Bilal would have been called Zanji and he was habasha. It is very difficult to translate languages because some languages are more complex and things r lostin translation. bilinguial people who are native to both toungues know this. I had this debate about Munto in Kiswhahili, and Muzingi. Nub means gold in Nubian. so again it isnt a racial term but an association, like the word phonecian "red people"-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Halaqah inflammatory header was: No source and constant reversion is vandalism
I have explained how wiki works you are not a native speaker of Arabic as per the above, but the main issue is the lack of refernces and the mistranslation of Zanj to land of the blacks, where in Zanj is the word land, and black. Bilad ul Sudan means "land of the blacks" you are distorting information, there is no valid Arabic contempoary source and your edits are a POV. You tone also violates wiki civil policy by ignoring debate , and using language to suggest you have more knowledge than someone else by calling them IGNORANT and NOT KNOWING NOTHING.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 19:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC) there is zero source for your edits, none of the edits have any refernces and hence are a violation of the principles of wikipedia, i have proved three sources, if you are a student of the language (see admission and proof above) then you should be respectful and not use wikipedia for a POV.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 20:01, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
User AnonMoos has given no refernce inline refernces as per wiki policy. We are suppose to trust the contraversial content. I ask Where is the source in the article ZANJ, show me the source in the article Zanj, how manytimes until you understand this statement, you have zero source. And you have changed my sources, my sources r three and clear, including a book, where are yours. i even gave page numbers, where r yours? What page, where who said? you have mistranslated the Arabic of Zanj and mixed it up with Bilad ul Sudan. you have altered my 3 sources statements, none use the word black, they say East African-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 21:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
No source, the user doesnt understand you must add valid source, inline sources. You cant tell me some book says so, i am an editor not a reader. You are giving misinformation without evidence in the article of where it comes from. you have mangled or confused the def of zanj with Sudan, two different words. Sudan is a place (land of the Blacks) Zanj was a term for some East Africans, excluding groups like the Dinka, an many Sourthern Ethiopian poeple. Zanj doesn mean Black people as this term includes too many ethnic groups and Zanj was not inclusive of these groups.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 22:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
[ [1]] see the long debate, when you add an undefinable term to a def it doesnt give it clarity, it brings in these issues. this debate has not ended black is too complex a term, it isnt a race, it is too broad, it has too many definitions, it is too wide. nothing in the arabic points to the word black, it is what europeans assumed it meant, since they call any non-white people black.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 00:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
One of the supposedly 3 references pointed to a blank page. I removed it. The remaining linked reference, Arab Slave Trade, actually mentioned 'black' as an issue. This was taken from that ref link to dispute the racial bias. Following is a DIRECT copy and paste from the linked ref:
Note that there is mention of "Black" in the last sentence and it is bolded, just as it is there on the page in the reference link about the Arab Slave Trade. Ironic, eh? This statement disputes the dispute! in that there was no mention of black, or was not important in the Arab world, AT THAT TIME. I dispute the dispute box. There are not 3 reference that dispute the mention of 'black' anywhere in the refs provided. There are more people that interpret otherwise. History should not change because it offends someone. In fact, this should be in the article to show that blacks where discriminated against for a very long time, not unlike the Jews. If you deny history, then one cannot learn. Plus the page is very unprofessional looking and it's poorly sourced. Again, the comparison to the Black people article is not the same at all. One is history the other on going and will never stop! Do not let this become like the Black people article, please and it's crazy debate. It's apples and oranges. Jeeny
Hey guys, remember while you're debating that the term in question here is how it was used in medieval times, not necessarily the Modern Standard Arabic definition, which may differ. While they are pretty close, MSA != Qur'anic Arabic or Medieval Arabic (or Medieval attempts to emulate Qur'anic Arabic, which are usually not as close as MSA to Qur'anic, actually). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 07:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Sudan, Habash, Nubian, (Tanwir al-Gabbash fi fasl al Sudan wa Habash) the Arabic text seperate the two, White people collapse eveyone. Here is another word Haratin and Bidan and Abid (which is used for Africans, but it doesnt mean black it means slave, so to translate it as black people is offesnsive and wrong). So what is the point of an academic encyclopedia that just says "blacks" for all of these term? all these different words which are used in specific ways. Even today in Egypt they dont say Sudan to mean Ethiopian, or Nubian to mean Uganda.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 11:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I would advise that this silly debate end. Xmas girl your politics on this subject are poorly informed at best. See talk page on Black people YOM i would advise dont feed it. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 09:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That's nice. How does it affect the fact that every Arabic dictionary says that the word Zanj زنج does actually mean what you keep saying that it doesn't mean? AnonMoos 10:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
leave it alone my arabic dictonary doesnt say that. Arabic-Amharic. or the Arabic-French. or the Arabic-Hausa. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 10:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
black is not an enclyopedic definition of a people, so lets not bring a controversial term into another controversial article. U r then imposing the subjectivity of a term Black people into this article. These terms like white people are unencyclopedic in historical context. Take a look at any African section. Black African is a offensive term. They are called Ethiopians, Malians, Fulani, Hausa. not one lumped race. Again, terms which are unclear, shouldnt be used as Indians are black and Arabs def didnt mean them. English speakers pollute history when they impose westernize terms on other peoples words. See Semantic drift.& u can agrue the other point with yourself as i have advised editors not to engage it as it is called trolling.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 14:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
No one (outside of a few Afrocentrics) considers Indians to be black anymore. That was just part of the black power movement where all dark skinned people were briefly calling themselves black in a few places, but for the most part the term black is only for Africans. This is even reflected in the U.S. census and U.S. law which only defines Africans South of North Africa as black (Indians are not considered black on any census). In fact even Nubians have a tough time being considered black by U.S. law [5] just as Nubians had a tough time being considered zanj. Yes it may be offensive to lump all the dark skinned peoples of Africa into a single category (especially the non-hybridized ones), but if that's what the Arabs did, that's what we must report. And the term used for dark-skinned peoples of specifically African ancestry is black. This is not nearly as offensive as alternative terms like negroid. Christmasgirl
I am warning you against your vandalism and original research. I dont care about if you and mr man above disagree. ur not the concensus. U dont need an agreement when sources are misquoted, or uncited content is added. read teh rules. I suggest you assume good faith and return my content. As you can agree with bad decisions but no where can you violate my sources, or add content which i have clearly argued against. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 14:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to fill in some of the "citation needed" gaps with references to such works as "Race and Slavery in the Middle East" by Bernard Lewis ( ISBN 0-19-506283-3) and "The Negative Images of Blacks in some Medieval Iranian Writings" by Minoo Southgate (Journal of of the Society for Iranian Studies, Vol XVII, Winter 1984 issue, pp. 3-36), but there's little point in even starting this effort as long as User:Halaqah continues to insist on garabling this article in order to pretend that the Arabic word Zanj زنج (and related forms deived from the same triliteral root) don't mean what every Arabic dictionary says that they mean! AnonMoos 22:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
East African however is not disputed. U can run on all day long, I speak Arabic, And no volume of people like you and your friend will change the facts, 3 sources do not say this. I looked it up in my Arabic English dic it didnt say this, nor in Wolof-Arabic dict. Wolf people speak Arabic much longer than Germans by the way. I developed these articles so end your riduclous claims i am blocking it when i added most of the content and references here, if you dont know the topic step back. strange no one else says this when i developed all the other ethnic group cats. And you suspecious support for your friend. I block original research and you adding terms which are hight controversial, I also developed the Black people page. Keep adding this content and i will keep removing it. Black African is an offensive term. reply 2 my arguments or dont reply at all. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 17:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
How much of this content was added by me and Yom? So intresting observation. All of the nonsense about Land of the Blacks that the above user added has been deleted by another user as inaccurate. Funny isnt it. The same content that i disputed is now down to 2 words. Why dont you insert land of the blacks again? thats what u were fighting for last time? Where are the sources. Ohh, Guess what the only references in this article are the ones i have added. So how is developing this topic? Note i also developed Black people-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 18:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Please use this page to discuss only this topic. ALl content which is directed to this user, which has nothing to do with Zanj can be deleted from this page. This is not a forum for exchange. Specifically discuss this topic,, the pending dispute. Follow the policy. If you make a comment, use the policy of wiki such as original research? etc, to validate your argument. If you continue to post forum like nonesense it will be stricked out. If you delete tags you will be blocked. And sockpuppets are not allowed on wiki, dont make me look you up.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 21:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
A legal tag has been added. OR is when you use your opinion to suggest content without references to a source which says so. "Zanj means black because most people use the word black to mean Africa" OR. Tags cannot be removed until a dispute has been settled. P.sAfrican history is my job.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 18:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Dispute tags are an important way for people to show that there are problems with the article. Do not remove them unless you are sure that all stated reasons for the dispute are settled. As a general rule, do not remove other people's dispute tags twice during a 24 hour period. Do not place dispute tags improperly, as in when there is no dispute, and the reason for placing the dispute tag is because a suggested edit has failed to meet consensus. Instead, follow WP:CON and accept that some edits will not meet consensus. -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 22:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
if it does mean this where is the source in the article? y dont my sources say this, y r my sources statements being changed 2 say something they dont.p.s ii hve a degree from soas, so it is not a hobby topic. zanj is a complex term, it doesnt even mean people it is a place. it is specific not general-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 03:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
^ "The African Diaspora in the Mediterranean Lands of Islam". "John Hunwick". Retrieved on 2004-10-01. ^ "Zanj Rebellion". "Owen 'Alik Shahadah". ^ a b "Hidden Iraq". "William Cobb".
now opinions and lay thinking is or, my added content is from three sources. wiki works on sources not feelings, or single sources. germanic tribes = white people is not a very encycolpedic way to discuss germanic people. yes they r white people, but germanic makes it a specific kind of white person.
please read jstor zanj it shows the complexity of the term, this article doesnt say black people. the issue is not all black people would be classified as zanj.
going deeper, rushton refers to the "habesha and zanj", now everyone knows ethiopian r black people so y do rushton and Arabs use two terms for one race? (if rushton is correct) a free ethiopian in Arabia would have been called Habaesha not Zanj according to rushton. i am not a lay person on this topic, and i am sick of African history being treated as some "any old thing they all black", see the above plethora of terms used to describe African people, most actually mean Slave. unless Slave = black people i fail to c the translation. this is the racism. zanj = slave = black people.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 03:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
now take a look at the work i have done on wiki, developing pages from nada. Why some focus on my edits look at the current state of this page 5 months later. I have gone and come back and there is NO DEVELOPMENT. read the above and ask why dont you focus on that!-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 01:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Now that`s what I call falsification of history. Over some period of time I have read first: The Zanj uprising against their arab/ muslim slave masters. Then second: The Zanj-uprising was supported by the Shia-muslims. And now third: The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans.
I read kiswahali with difficulty ( sw:Etimolojia ya Neno Zanzibar), but Zanguebar seem to be old european (via portuguese) word for zanj, it is not ? Vincnet ( talk) 14:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The proper IPA for this is Zunj OR Zinj -- Prince jasim ali ( talk) 15:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
A source is quoted in the article: It was not a slave revolt. It was a zanj, i.e. a Negro, revolt. To equate Negro with slave is a reflection of nineteenth-century racial theories; it could only apply to the American South before the Civil War."
"All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. On the contrary, some of the people who were working in the salt marshes were among the first to fight against the revolt. Of course there were a few runaway slaves who joined the rebels... Ah yes.-- 178.115.212.185 ( talk) 20:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Per early historian and geographer like Yaqut al-Hamawi on his book made a distinction between Berber people of Maghreb and those of east Africa, he wrote in his book Mu'jam Al-Buldan [6], 173 quoted "Mogadishu is a city located on the outskirts of the land of Zinj, on the land of Berbirah south of Yemen, and these Berber are different from those of Maghreb, these people are black similar to Zanj and look like an intermediate race between Habesha and Zanj". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.44.160 ( talk) 10:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the over-quotation template from contemporary descriptions, because that section had three quotes, of which at least two were necessary to give a full sense of the variety in use of the term. The template mainly appears to be a legacy of the debates over the identification of "Zanj" with "black" above; as these debates appear to have been resolved, the template no longer seems necessary nor consensual. Bernanke's Crossbow ( talk) 05:19, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
What is written here about the etymology is kind of weird. These seem to be superficial sources written by Europeans with little knowledge. There is no doubt that Zanj is derived from the Persian word Zang, which literally means "rust", also in modern day Persian. I speak Persian. When you add an -i suffix, it becomes an adjective. So "Zangi" literally means "rusty". The Arabic language does not know the G sound which is why Arabs pronounce it Zanj instead of Zang. References to that etymology can be found in wiktionary, see: زنجي - Wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%8A), زنگی - Wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D9%86%DA%AF%DB%8C#Persian), زنگ - Wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D9%86%DA%AF#Persian) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.233.35.210 ( talk) 01:32, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
This article is literally crap. The claims in it are absolute rubbish - this has to be one of those useless articles that give Wikipedia a very bad name. Not interested in arguments and lawyering and so on - anyone reading this should go to the Britannica and look up the equivalent article.
According to Dr. Felix Chami, archaeologist and professor at Dar es Salaam University in his co-edited book - Southern Africa and Swahili World, Zanj does not mean black. He says " Following my detailed discussion of the word Zanj in my co-edited book called Southern Africa and Swahili World (you can find it with African Books Collective)...it seems now the word Zanj or Azania or Zangion had nothing to do with the colour of people or even slavery the way the first one has been conceptualised. What is in those words is the word 'Za' or 'Zi' and ancient Bantu word for water-oceans or lakes, and another word 'nchi' or 'nji' another Bantu word meaning country or settlement respectively. The people of the coast of East Africa identified themselves with the 'Indian Ocean' which was then known as 'Za' and hence the people of the country or settlement of 'Za' and hence 'Zanchi' or 'Zanj'"...I am a Xhosa South African with ancestry going up East Africa to the nothern regions and I concur that Zanj refered to the coast and it's people because in the Xhosa and Zulu languages ZANSI/ZANTSI means coast and/or people of the coast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhaloParihu ( talk • contribs) 15:50, 12 October 2021 (UTC)