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Proactive steps that should be taken from now on, and whenever entering into a discussion with another editor you should:
PLEASE MAKE YOUR REQUESTS SHORT; LESS THAN 500 WORDS
What would you like to see happen on Zadar?
I cannot socialize with an agenda warrior. In every moment I was ready for discussion with arguments, hundreds of lines I wrote to Silvio and here in just 2 weeks are showing what my attitude is. However it needs 2 (or more) for building consensus. I don't understand a person who forces his own POV and speaks about consensus, but refusing to even try to reach it in the same time. I'm not sure what to expect from this mediation, but I'm sure something must be done so the article can be edited by quality. Until now there wasn't any contribution in that direction from the other side. And his comment below shows that nothing has changed. So what can I expect? Turning in circles next 6 months because of his POV interpretations? Like, he's changed his position a few inches, and that is all folks! This is embarassing. It is apsurd that we had this long discussion and mediation about shall we involve an extremist view or not! However I hope things can change. Otherwise I wouldn't spent my time here. Zenanarh ( talk) 14:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
My proposal is adding in the section "19th and 20th century" the sentence:
The archives of the official Austro-Hungarian censi conducted at the end of 19th century shows that Italian was the language spoken by the majority of the people in the city, but only by a third of the population in the entire county.
In order to reach consensus I do not insist to report the exact figures from the censi. Of course I am ready yo accept any rephrasing from an English mother tongue user.
What would you like to see happen on Luciano Laurana?
In wikipedia there was all bunch of irredentist agenda attackers, who were more or less wiped off, Croatian wiki community was more numerous earlier, it was easier to detect them. They are not "all Italians", or "all Italian wikipedians", just some poor bunch of people who have nothing better to do in their lives. And there are 10 to 20 articles related to Dalmatia under such attacks, almost continually. Lucijan Vranjanin / Luciano Laurana Schiavon is just one person encroached by the Italians. Georgius Dalmaticus (Dalmatian), Francius Petricius (Schiavone),... And Lucijan / Luciano case is typical. He stayed some period in Italy where he specialized architecture and contributed to Italian Renaissance (many Croats and Dalmatians were going to Italian art schools as well as many other Europeans did). He worked in Dalmatia too. But he was a Croat as his nickname "Sciavon" in Italy said, one from Medieval "name-surname-ethnicity" signature formula, Luciano Laurana Schiavon in Italy. So although he had Croatian surname and was born in Croatian town and self-declared as the Croat, Italian literature defines him as the Italian. They have problem in accepting that a Croat was one of the greatest architects from period of Italian Renaissance. They have the same problem with any eminent Croat and Dalmatian coming from Dalmatia. What to say? What to expect? I expect to see evidence of his Italian ethnicity. Only in that case we can step into any discussion concerning reaching consensus. It is not question of Croatian source, Italian source or Martian one. It is question of reliability. There is no any evidence of his Italian ethnicity, there are direct evidences of his Croatian ethnicity. If there is no evidence, just "naked definitions" like "Italian sculptor" in Italian literature, then it is false and that literature is not reliable. Zenanarh ( talk) 15:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
As discussed, I can cite at least 3 international sources (all of them not Italian and verifiable on line) in support of the Italian origins of Laurana.
In view of the difference of quality, reputation and quantity of the supporting sources, my request is to re-establish the reference of Laurana being Italian and to remove the Croatian claim (currently the Croatian origin of this artist is supported only by 2 Croatian sources). The Croatian origin of the artist should be removed from the lead part of the article, until some equally reputable international sources will not be provided in support of the claim.
In order to achieve consensus and to respect the work of the authors of the sources mentioned by Zenanarh, I am fine if at the end of the Biography section (therefore not in the lead section of the article) it will be reported that some Croatian sources consider Luciano Laurana of Croatian origins.
In the lead section, the article states as follows:
Luciano Laurana (Lutiano Dellaurana, Croatian: Lucijan Vranjanin)[1] (c. 1420 – 1479) was a Croatian [2][3] architect and engineer from the historic Vrana settlement near the town of Zadar in Dalmatia, Croatia.[4] After education by his father Martin in Vrana settlement, he worked mostly in Italy during the late 15th century.
The article states that he is Croatian because he was born in Croatia. Then, it states that he worked most of his life in Italy. So, there is no need to change his nationality to Italian. For example, a Canadian who immigrates to the United States is called a Canadian because he was born and is representing, per say, Canada in the United States.
Again please consider that before the edit war started the articles was stating he was Italian and Croatian. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 15:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
In the questioned section of the article, the article states as follows:
After 1815 Dalmatia (including Dubrovnik) came under the Austrian crown. After 1848, Italian and Slavic nationalism became accentuated and the city became divided between the Croats and the Italians, both of whom founded their respective political parties. There are conflicting sources for both sides claiming to have formed the majority in Zadar in this period.
The article states there are conflicting sources for both sides claiming to who formed the majority in Zadar. I don't see the need to discuss further about one particular census as I don't find it particuarly more important than any other census conducted during that time period.
Article State: Leave the articles as they are right now.
Zenanarh: I know that you are becoming increasingly irriated with problems throughout Wikipedia namespace, in particular, when there is questioning with Croatian articles. However, I must remind you that personal attacks are not welcome by the community and are punishable by blocks nor do personal attacks allow you to "win" discussions. Instead next time, I ask that you use the 4 steps mentioned above when dealing with persistent editors.
Silvio1973: I know that you are a fairly new editor to Wikipedia and we appreciate your efforts to bring your contributions to Wikipedia. However, I ask that you remember to look at Wikipedia's policies before suggesting ideas as they may not meet the criteria, as this happened for this dispute.
Whenaxis
talk Join the
Imposter Verification Team!
23:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Whenaxis, I actually did use 4 steps: 1) Consider the other editor's point of view. - it's enough to see how much energy I've lost in discussion with Silvio before your coming; 2) Do not disruptively edit through edit warring and reversions. - In my eyes I wasn't edit warring at all, I was reverting an extremist view, something which is normal in wikipedia, question is only whether more wider community can recognize it as an extremist view, this particular problem is obiously not known so well to wider community; 3) Do not use personal attacks to get your point across. - I have never meant to get my point across with personal attacks, but is it really personal attack to warn someone about his/her extremist position? OK maybe I've lost nerves here and there but it was nothing serious, I was actually calling Silvio to reconsider his position and arguments. 4) Rely on Wikipedia policies to determine a resolution. - that was exactly what I was doing. You can see it in all my posts. If there is something I've missed, please inform me. At the end, thank you for your contribution, I hope we will not meet this way too often in the future. All the best.
Silvio, what to say... You are still confusing things: Still I need to remind you that by the time Luciana Laurana born, Vrana was not in Croatia but under the Republic of Venice - weren't you the one who stated that there were no nationalities in Renaissance? Nationality is concept of modern nations and modern sovereign national states. Lucijan was a Croat by ethnicitiy and not nationality. Ethnicity has/had nothing to do with borders. People who were born within the borders of Republic of Venice were not the Venetians, they were what they were by ethnicity; the Venetians were only people in city of Venice, those whose roots were Venetian - from that city. but this decision will not give stability to the article because stating on ethnicity on the basis of current borders it's quite arguable - ethnicity has nothing to do with past or current political borders. It is strange that you are confusing these things. Really strange. Zenanarh ( talk) 08:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Of course I meant Dalmatian and this was my proposal, by the way. But when I did it you said it was "chauvinist". Why?-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 10:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
That a user fairly new to Wikipedia like me could make a mistake in understanding policies is possible, that an experienced user (as you pretend to be) could relate to the others the way you do this is regrettable. You do not respect the others, how can you expect respect from the others? And I will not answer to your next answer because you always need to have the last word. I leave this to you. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 12:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Whenaxis, I do not discuss about the decision of the mediator. Rules are rules. But I need some clarifications.
What surprises me is the ground of your decision concerning Luciano Laurana. I would have been fine (although not happy) if you had been convinced after all our discussion that he was of Croatian ethnicity. But stating that he should be classified as Croatian because today Vrana is part of Croatia is somehow confusing. Based on your approach Ataturk should be considered Greek because he born in Thessaloniki or Garibaldi should be considered French because was born in Nice. A decision based on your ground will not give stability to the article because stating on ethnicity on the basis of current borders it's quite arguable.
Also, if the your decision is to leave the articles as they were before the edit war, then you should leave this version
[2], i.e. the version before the edit war started.
For the sake of clarity I need to remember that my initial proposal was to declare Luciano Laurana as Dalmatian in order to avoid discussion and to be in harmony with the main Wikipedia in the other languages (such as the Spanish and the German).
Concerning Zadar I acknowledge your decision. Still you did not reply to the request of third opinion. My request was to state about the acceptability of the census as primary source. And we did not receive a clear statement concerning this.
To conclude, I have reported Zenanarh's behaviour on the Administrator's Board. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 07:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
It greatly surprised me that Zenanarh opened up in a friendly manner. I guess people can change. That made my day and made me smile. As per Silvio's comments, I still remain to my point that I don't think that the census is an intrigual or important part of the article as per WP:UNDUE. Silvio, I really appreciate your contributions and your good faith edits but it doesn't really conform with Wikipedia standards. All the best, Whenaxis talk Join the Imposter Verification Team! 00:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
It 's quite surprising that the Italian name Zara was canceled. One can easily prove that for centuries the only name by which the city was known in the world was Zara and not Zadar. For a native English speaker, the term Zadar was completely unknown until the end of World War II. You can see any English or American atlas of the time.
If you go back to past centuries you find that all European maps used Zara instead of Zadar. Let’s see for example these maps published in Belgium, Holland. Germany, Austria from XVI to XIX. All of them use the term “Zara”.
Histriae tabula a Pedro Coppo descri. - Zarae, et Sebenici Descri. Artist: Ortelius, Abraham Published: Antwerp Date: 1573
Nova et accurata Tabula Regnorum et Provinciarum Dalmatiae, Croatiae, Sclavoniae, Bosniae, Serviae, Istriae, et Reip. Ragusanae, cum finitimis Regionibus Studio et Impensis Matthaei Seutteri, S. Caes. et reg. Cathol. Majest. Geographi edita Augustae Vindelicor. Artist: Seutter, Matthaeus Published: Augsburg, M. Seutter, Date: 1720
Koenigreich Illyrien - nach der neuesten Begrenzung, und vorzueglichsten Huelfsmitteln verfast. - in Wien bey Tranquillo Mollo. Artist: Mollo, Tranquillo Published: Wien Date: 1816-22
Iadera, Sicum et Aenona vulgo Zara, Sibenico et Nona cum Insulis Adjacentibus in Parte Dalmatiae Boreali Artist: Jan Janssonius Published: Amsterdam Date: 1650
But even more interesting is the following map published not abroad but in Zara
Map of Dalmatia Author: Zavoreo Published: Zara Date:1811
Even a local map doesn’t use the name “Zadar”.
That’s to say that it’s totally unacceptable the cancellation of the Italian name of Zara. Zara was for centuries the only name by which native English speakers and generally all Europeans knew this city. Deny this truth is an offense to European history and civilization. This will be brought to the attention of the administrators of wiki and everyone will assume its responsibility before the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.41.209.188 ( talk) 18:02, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Nothing really new. You can try to make your point prevail but you will only lose your time. Personally I believe that whatever evidence you will bring in support, this will be refused for some reasons. This page is currently very well patrolled by a number of contributors (90 of them from the same country) that do not tolerate any change and patrol very well this page. One fo the objective of this article is to describe events and facts in the specific way to demonstrate that the ethnic structure of the city has been the same for century. If this is false or true this does not matter. This can be proved easily. Two thirds of the sources are from then same country and most of them are even not in Englsh. So I would like to understand how it is possible to check their reliability. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 20:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Hallo Italian nationalists. I'm patroller no. 78 ;-p 83.131.72.65 ( talk) 08:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, this is not an issue of policies. If you look on the recent history of this page you will see that I have roll-backed and reverted changes to this page made from Italian nationalists. So your comment does not apply to me. My problem is not the name Zadar/Zara, this has been discussed enough. The issue with this page is that absolutely legitimate sources such as the Austro-Hungarian census are not admitted, because they are not in line with Croatian nationalism. Census are used everywhere as source but here are not admitted because they demonstrate the opposite of what please to some nationalists. This is a real problem and as administrator you should be concerned by this. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Croatian nationalism is something frankly embarrassing and completely out of the common European feeling. Reading this article leaves stunned, astonished because of its lack of objectivity. Even the denial of the Italian name of the city is something that has no equivalent in the pages of wikipedia. Let’s examine the articles that refer to cities, regions that changed sovereignty after the World War II. The previous name is always mentioned after the current official name. It’s true for every town, village whose sovereignty was transferred from Germany to Poland (Gdansk, Wroclaw, Opole, Legnica, Glogow, Jelenia Gora, Nysa, Klukzbork, Liberk, Koszalin, Lebork, Elblank, Ostroda, Olsztyn, Lawa, Ketrzyn, etc.etc. ) or from Gemany to Lithuania (Memel) or Russia (Kaliningrad, Tilsit etc.) The same for every village, town passed from Hungary to Ukraine, from Poland to Ukraine, from Poland to Lithuania, You find the Hungarian name for the cities belonging to the kingdom of Hungary and now in Romania, Slovakia. We can go on with other examples from all over Europe but it is useless because....because Croatia is different.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.211.135.171 ( talk) 12:28, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, this issue of the name is quite minor. And however reading trough the article the Italian version of the name is quoted (better than nothing). What concerns me the most is the actual content of the article, namely the information about the number of Zadar's inhabitants using Italian during the XIX century and the actual contribution of Venice to the history of the people.
The thing is that the population of Zadar always showed a strong duality in terms of culture but reading the article there is very little reference to it. For some reasons some editors of this article whish to deny a number of facts about the history of this city.
I lived for three years in Transilvania (Romania) and I never met a single ethnic Romanian from Transilvania denying the influence of Austro-Hungarian culture on this region of modern Romania. It was never denied to the Hungarians of Transilvania the right to keep his culture, to learn their language, they were never pushed out of their houses, never lost their properties and still one century later there are vast regions of Romania with 80% of people speaking Hungaria. Exactly as in Italy there is an entire region where the most of the people speak German.
And I have to read in this talk page that the Italian are the nationalists... 'Franchement c'est vraiment n'importe quoi !'
Yes, Croatia is different.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
12:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, I am not a fascist and not a nationalist. I am just moderately upset because sources like official censi are refused in this page. This is against Wiki policy and the argument that they are primary source is just a pretest (in hundreds of other article they are used and accepted without any problem). This is my REAL problem and if you do not mind I would like to have your opinion as administrator about this matter. PS I agree all all your points but please give consideration to my request above. This is a real concern. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 17:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Research is work and trust me that collecting all the evidence that I reported above took me quite a lot of work.
I have two issues with this article.
1. Reporting the results of the a/u censi conducted around the end of XIX century in Zadar. I still do not understand why - with the due caution required when using primary sources - these sources are not eligible for this article.
And let's be very clear. The information requested during the censi was to report the primary language of use, not the ethnicity. In any case a link between language of use and ethnicty could not be made.
2. This article has a prominence of nearly 2/3 of non English sources. If at some extent it is acceptable to have non-English sources, on the other hand this proportion is here excessive because the most of those sources are Croatian or Yougoslavian and therefore difficult to check for an English speaker; And on top of that there is the potential conflict of interest of using Croatian sources to support claims on such a contested article. Please check WP:NOENG, WP:NONENG, WP:SOURCEACCESS.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
18:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
"Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation..."
1. If there is room we should not restrict to one census. I propose to add as much as information it's possible, of course provided the modification it's brief (less than 30 words) and does not give the smallest chance of any nationalist interpretation.
2. This is a bigger discussion. Let's start with the first one, then I will highlight the relevant points where IMHO some international sources, if they exist, should apply.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
21:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
I will come with q proposal for number 1 later today (and I will make all the efforts to stick the most to the source and be the most "aseptic" is possible).
I do not even want to speak of sizeable Italian population, because this would be historically inaccutate. It's enough to stick to the census and write "declaring Italian as first language".
Concerning 2 there is no problem "per se" if the sources are from Croatia/FYR. The issue exists only when there is conflict between those and sources from other countries (i.e. Italian, but not necesserely). In such cases English sources should be preferred. As soon I have time I will make a list of those conflictual parts (4 or 5).
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
05:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I propose to add to the existing text the following sentence.
In order to reach consensus and give to this modification the biggest chance to survive I suggest not to report the exact figures. The reader will have the possibility to get more knowledgeable going trough the sources, for those available on the Web.
The archives of the official austro-hungarian censi conducted aroud the end of 19th century show that Italian was the primary language spoken by the majority of the people in the city, but only by a third of the population in the entire county.
Primary and secondary sources supporting this affirmation:
I suggest to explore the room for consensus about this first proposal before going trough the other topics. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, the sentence in italic is the proposed addition. Feel free to change it if there is any possibility to make it even more factual. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, I genuinely don't know. Ask to the ones that were against or go trough the talk pages if you want (and have the time). I think they were (and still are) against because they considered it was historically incorrect or against wikipedia policies. Possibly some opposition existed because my contributions are considered extremist, nationalist and irredentistic. Perhaps I did not manage to defend my position with sufficient clarity.
However, can we go ahead with this modification?
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
15:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I have just added the modification, but I doubt that they will resist. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
@Grifter72. I have modified in the sense of your suggestion. Ideally it would be appropriate to put along with my two recents modification some numbers but I doubt that everyone will appreciate it. What'a your opinion? -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 15:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted this modification for a few obvious reasons.
"(mostly Romance Dalmatians and Northern Italians). This somehow altered the ethnic structure that previously had a Slavik Dalmatian majority. Under the pressur of the population increase,"
1. There were no Romance Dalmatians (speakers of Dalmatian) in Dalmatia in the 19th century. Across Dalmatia, they had been assimilated by the Croats much earlier, during Medieval and Renaissance. Peolpe who moved were the Italians and pro-Italians. Pro-Italians were Croats, supporters of the Autonomist Party and not Dalmatian Romance speakers, they were bilinguals Croatian/Italian.
2. Italians who moved from the south of Dalmatia to Zadar at the end of the 19th century were not mostly Northern Italians, they were Italian immigrants from different regions of Italy.
3. This immigration to Zadar did change demographic structure of the city during last 3 decencies of the 19th century but it didn't alter the ethnic structure to such degree. Italians made majority in the city only from 1920 (when Italian army came) and later, due to emigration of the Croats from the city ruled by the fascist Italy.
4. Modification is not written in English. It's written in some hybrid English.
You can do better. And when you do, use source. 93.143.17.40 ( talk) 13:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
3. The sources I removed are in conflict with many other sources shown in mediation: "but only by a third of the population in the entire county" - this is incorrect. Not 1/3! It's incorrect also from other reason too, it doesn't says that Italian was spoken by many Croatian speakers. This way it looks like 30% of county population spoke Italian and 70% Croatian - nonsense. The only objective words to say would be: cca 15% of county population was able to speak Italian too. Since almost all of them were Croats. There were no Italians out of the city.
4. You're right, the other editor made that mistake in this page earlier and caused my mistake too.
It seems you are not objective. Maybe this article should be protected from you? 93.143.17.40 ( talk) 14:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
No. Unfortunately I'm not Zenanarh. It would be much better if Zenanarh comes here. Don't get me wrong but I think his knowledge about Zadar is higher dimension for 3 of you. I'm just in love with Zadar history, I've been following Zenanarh's discussion with Silvio and mediation. And this modification was stupid even to my amateur level of knowledge. Also pro-Italians were not Italians. They were declaring as Dalmatians, Italo-Slavs and Italo-Dalmatians and not Italians. 93.143.17.40 ( talk) 14:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
You have nice ammount of data shown in mediation here. Use it to use proper terminology and to avoid presentation of selective data such as 1/3 county population detail, which is completely false info, I think it's invented by Silvio. 93.143.17.40 ( talk) 14:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
(removed a personal attack) This is very suspicious. All these new IP "Zadar enthusiasts" are from Zagreb, whereas Zenanarh is quiet. I'd like to have them checked against Zenenarh. With the IP explicitly claiming he's "not Zenanarh" (but he "loves him nevertheless" :)), should he actually turn out to be Zen that would be sockpuppeteering warranting an indeff block.
Last chance before an SPI: is that Zenanarh? -- Director ( talk) 16:30, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
You are fascinating, everybody are zenanar to you. Is Zenanarh thorn in your eye? And I'm 93.143.17.40 from 23 February 2012, writing from Zadar and not from Zagreb. These numbers are changing. I didn't disappear. I'm only not so sick to sleep here every day for hours. 78.3.55.167 ( talk) 14:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Silvio1973 that the name (Zadar-Zara) is not the main problem of this article but nevertheless it is a problem. Let me be clear: I will not enter the debate between Croatian and Italian points of view about the history and ethnic or linguistic composition of the population. I do not even care that Zara was the Italian and Hungarian official name, although this is not a negligible fact. I want to approach the problem from another perspective: the native English speaker perspective. A very important information is missing from the text: Zara was the only ENGLISH name for centuries. Generations of English speakers knew this town only as Zara and all English sources before World War II report the name Zara. In according with WP:NCGN the title should be followed in the first line by the past widely used English name, which coincides with the Hungarian and Italian name. This is a lack of a basic information for any English reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.1.201.80 ( talk) 20:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 16:42, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The article currently reports the sentence The Venetians restrained the political and economical autonomy of Zadar when speaking of the city in the period XV-XVIII centuries. This sentence has to be supported with sources. And I would really like to see such sources, if exist. Indeed it is exactly the opposite. Zadar become capital of Venetian Dalmatia and the most of cultural and artistic development that makes today this city known world-wide had place during tthis period. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 10:09, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Not true. Whene Venetians came in 1409, they started to destroy the city as they already had done earlier, like in 1202 and 1343. Symbol of Zadar St. Donat is just a half of a monumental building, Venetians destroyed the other half. The most of churches had been built before the Venetians came, Venetians built only new city walls, castle at the north-west of the city where they were hiding from angry citizens and a few storehouses. Zadar had a few flourishing periods in its history: 1st half of the Iron Age, 1st-3rd century under Rome and 13th, 14th century under Croatian-Hungarian kings - in all cases it was when the city was well connected to its background. Venetians cut it off from its background and stopped its developement. Before 1409 Zadar was also a capital of Dalmatia for long 8 centuries. It is obvious what Venetian role was, Dubrovnik stayed out of Venetian Republic and continued to develop, the other Dalmatian cities fell down politically, economically and culturally under Venice. 78.3.55.167 ( talk) 14:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Zadar was the capital of the Venetian possessions in Dalmatia for almost 4 centuries. If the intent of some contributors is to reduce the role of Venice to pure occupation and destruction this is a significant fact and must be sourced. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 16:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Silvio1973, your approach to the problem is wise and fair but it allows paradoxical situations. if in English wiki you type “Zara” (the widely used English name) you find a disambiguation page with “Zara, Italian, Venetian, German and Hungarian name of the Adriatic port city of Zadar (and its official name from the 15th to the 20th century), former capital of Dalmatia, today in Croatia” This is probably the very first approach to Zara/Zadar for a native English speaker, except for the tourists who know the present name of the town. There is a consistency problem with the redirection page "Zadar" which doesn't mention tha name "Zara". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.45.201.235 ( talk) 13:57, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
This part of the discussion is not about the name of the city. Please let's keep the discussions separated, the talk pages about this article are already a mess. I will answer to your comments in the relevant part above. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 16:04, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
DIREKTOR you can not be apodictic about the problem of the name. In the presence of arguments clearly not irrelevant you should justify it. I invite you to examine systematically En Wiki policy about regions, towns, villages whose sovereignty changed after WW II in Europe. You will always find the present official name followed by tha past one. I can cite hundreds of examples Please justify, if you can, the reason why Zadar is a unique and clamorous exception. I'll be waiting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.25.203.163 ( talk) 15:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Neo-fascist revisionism of Silvio1973 and his Snoopy. 78.3.118.184 ( talk) 08:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't know who is 78.3.118.184. Certainly he/she is not very courageous because is hiding back of an IP address. It is somehow interesting to be qualified of Neo-fascist by such iper-nationalist users. Perhaps with the integration of Croatia in the UE things will improve. I hope, at least. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 09:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
EU didn't help Italians to clean their house. It's worse. Fascism only escalated in Italy, we know how student demonstrations in Rome are tretated, first dickhead neo-nazis in black clothes are beating students, police is never there, then after they're finished and run away, police is coming to beat the rest of students. There are no such groups or incidents in Croatia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.44.217 ( talk) 10:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The statements of users 78.3.118.184, 78.3.44.217 do not deserve any response. Fabioantonello ( talk) 11:21, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Is it possible to stop these actions of disturbance? -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 11:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I have modified and moved some sections of text and added some information concerning the period of time between the beginning of WWI and the Treaty of Rapallo. Also included some information and a source about the genesis of the confict between Italian and Croatian communities. I tried to be as brief as possible but the number of events marking this period of history are numerous so it is difficult to be brief and clear at the same time. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 11:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, this thing of the name in the lead is fairly minor. It's just a thin layer of paint and any careful reader can read trough getting trough the rest the article. Indeed I am much more interested about the rest of the article, namely:
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 06:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Class conflict - what a nonsense. The Italians - trading, administration, military; Croats - handcrafting and agricolture. Are you aware how racistical your views are? So people who were running the city for centuries, defending it against continual Venetian attacks, controlling trade route in the Adriatic, organizing union of Dalmatian cities and political relations of the province suddenly became handcrafters and agriculturists? Just like that? And where the hell were the Croats supposed to be agriculturists in the city? Agriculture in the city? And how are we supposed to interpret rasistical Venetian laws proclaimed immidiatelly after they had entered in the city, so 90% of the city population - all domestic people were not allowed to contribute in the politics, economics and cultural life of the city anymore, all city nobility was persecutted, Venetians captured 40 hostages from every noble family and sent them to Venetian prisons just to break resistence of the noblemen and citizens, so the carriers of political life noblemen became just a group of Harlequins, according to these laws sex between Venetians and Croats was not allowed - pure racism, absolute majority of the city was not allowed to use their language in their cultural developement, since the Venetians weren't succesful in Italianizing the city and they were constantly afraid of any possible cultural rise of the city population, they even decided to close up the oldest university in the SEE - Zadar University (established in the 14th century) because it was run by the Benedictines who had close connections to Croats from the beginning of their presence at this side of Adriatic and so on. Your ideas of some cultural and economical prosperity of Dalmatia under Venice are fairytales for little children. The fall of Dalmatian cities was basic condition for rise of Venice. When Dalmatian cities were strong until 1409, Venice was stagnating. When Venice bought and colonized Dalmatia, these cities stagnated and Venice developed rapidly. Class conflict reflected in use of language was result of Venetian rule in Dalmatia at the beginning of the 19th century! There had been no any kind of class conflict reflected in the etnicities (why do you use word nationality, do you know what nationality means?)before 1409, since there had been no Venetians to start such segregation. Croats and Dalmatians (by language) were one and the same body. First learn history of this city. 78.0.166.164 ( talk) 12:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, a few things.
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 15:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Answering point-by-point. Please be honest in your responses.
-- Director ( talk) 15:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor I try always to be honest. Sometime I might not be because I can make mistakes, but this is a different matter.
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 08:26, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes Direktor, Italian Fascists (the most extreme fraction) was in direct link with the Ustase and we will probably have time in future to discuss about the role that Croatian Ustase had with Italian Fascists in the deportation of numbers of Jews but perhaps not in this talk page. So if you do not mind we might speak about the other issues because they require urgent treatment and that I kindly submit to your cordial attention. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 15:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
What a discovery Direktor! Italian fascism was the first extreme right dictature of the XX century to estabilish in Europe. All the others (starting from Hitler) learnt at some extent from them. The thing that is regrettable of the section concerning the WWII of this article is that describe the events that touched the population of Zadar as the (almost) pure responsability of Germany and Italy.
Concerning the other points, I am not going to remove everything that is not sourced because I am not an inquisitor. This is not my objective. The only thing that interest me it's the truth (or at least what is closer to the truth). If there are sources describing the conflicts between Croats and Italians during the XIX century as being - at least partially - a class conflict, it is relevant to report it. If there are sources claiming that this is false, it would be great to know.
However I am going to propose some modifications (as usual with the mildest and most neutral tone) and we will discuss afterwards.
PS I don't know if they really "cultivated" them, but if it was the case the quality of the result was certainly due to the quality of the pupils rather than of the teacher. Come on man, what was done in Jasenovac was quite a job if you think to the limited means they had.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
04:51, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, Ustase were trained in Italy in the 30's. This is a fact largely sourced. There is no problem about that. Please have a look to the modifications I have added. Let me know what do you think. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The objective was to favour the Croatian element to limit the development of the Italian culture (and avoid any potential irredentism). Also the Croats were considered more loyal to the Crown. However what I reported is the translation of what the Emperor said (or at least what is reported to have been said in the archives). As a translation contains always an element of subjectivity, give me a few time and I will report to you the exact quote of the text (in German, of course). Then you will judge. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 06:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
There was more complexity. Dalmatians in that years maturated a self-consciousness to be Croats (narodni preporod). A lot of them were perfect bilingual. Šime Ljubić spoke better Italian than Croat language, but felt to be a Croat. This was not artificially created by Austrians.-- Grifter72 ( talk) 14:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
@Grifter72
1. The Austrians did not create anything. But the Austrians were masters in managing the ethnical conflicts.
2. This is the reason why we speak clearly of people using Italian language and try to avoid as much as possible the ethnic reference. Still at the end of the XIX century there was an ethnic division, albeit this division did not correspond neither to the language used neither to the surnames of the people (people with apparently Slavik names were almost irredentist and others with Romance names felt fully Croat).
@Direktor
I have the original text in German and I will put on the talk page as soon as possible (I need to format it to report all the special symbols). It is very clear and speak by itself. The source is quoted so everyone can check the consistency if wished. Please wait a few hours more.
La pazienza e' la virtu' dei forti
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
15:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
In future forget completely about such details. Although since we're not using English-language sources (which is discouraged on en-Wiki, as you know) it would be nice if you translated it.. The point is to move on with the discussion. Please provide:
Whom exactly are you quoting up there? The author, or the primary source he's using? Is the author referring to the Emperor as "Majesty"? And again. If you would like to quote the Emperor's statement I do not think it appropriate to just quote half a sentence.
I won't revert you again, but for future reference: please do not under any circumstances start revert-warring. You introduced the change, there were some objections and it was removed. Do not restore opposed new changes without consensus. Have you seen the notice above? -- Director ( talk) 05:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
To answer to your question:
I see your point about the revert, but don't you think it would have been perhaps more appropriate to put a cn on the disputed part? Reverting afterards it's never an easy job if in the meantime other changes have been made.
If you are fine we can report the entire passage and put in the notes the full passage in German, though this sounds to me extremely heavy.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
09:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
No Direktor, there is nothing of confusing.
How do you want to format the modification on the article? I can quote only Monzali in the article, but it is important to write down that at the origin this affirmation come from the mouth of French Joseph. Very important. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 11:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, there is no game going on. Let's repeat again.
If the sentence itself does represent an issue for you because it is a primary source, then I will report the opinion of Monzali about the matter. Still I think it is more valuable to report the citation from Emperor French Joseph rathen than the opinion from an historian.
If we start removing from en:wiki all the sentences of kings, dictators, presidents, emperors (just because primary source) and so we would really make a massacre
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
17:59, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, I share your very same concern. We need to find a balance (if possible and if it exists) between facts and valid sources.
If this balance does not exist, clearly the sources cannot be admitted. And in this case it is not the opinion of Monzali that counts, but the citation of French Joseph. The first one could be biased, not the second.
I can give you others sources (German) citing the same reference to this Austrian Crown citation.
What Emperor French Joseph is a fact. I can sustain with other German secondary sources. Now ignoring this based on the technicality that is a primary source equates to say that whatever secondary source is preferable to a primary source, even if this can be tracked in secondary sources. This would be an arguable principle.
Still there is need to cut - at least - to cut the existing text. This would not comply to WP:UNDUE. Indeed for that reason I did not want to put the whole citation. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 05:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
I share your very same concern, but please consider that this article is full of sources dating the last 20 years and I doubt of modern Croatian historiography as well. However forget about Monzali if you have a problem with this source, there are other secondary sources quoting the same citation (in German what is logical because we speak of Austrian history in the end). [1] -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 06:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
I have recovered the original German of the Franz Joseph quote, as cited in a number of Austrian publications, for example Volk Land und Staat: Landesbewusstsein, Staatsidee und nationale Fragen in der Geschichte Österreichs, page 95, unfortunately available from Google Books in snippet form only.
-- Bejnar ( talk) 07:19, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
The solution of an internal link named “historic names” is not consistent with WP:NCGN. In accordance with it “all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead” In WP:NCGN there’s no mention of “historic names” section, because, as in this case, it can create ambiguity between archaic names and names presently used in other languages. The correct solution is “Etymology and other names” Let's see an example of proper use of such a paragraph about Vilnius “The name of the city originated from the Vilnia River.[2] The city has also been known by many derivate spellings in various languages throughout its history. The most notable non-Lithuanian names for the city include: Polish: Wilno, Belarusian: Вiльнюс, Вiльня, German: Wilna, Latvian: Viļņa, Russian: Вильнюс, Yiddish: ווילנע (Vilne). An older Russian name was Вильна / Вильно (Vilna/Vilno),[3][4] although Вильнюс (Vilnius) is now used. The names Wilno, Wilna and Vilna have also been used in older English, German, French and Italian language publications. The name Vilna is still used in Finnish, Portuguese, Spanish, and Hebrew.” This is a correct use because there’s no ambiguity between archaic and present alternative names. 79.25.203.163 ( talk) 16:47, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 18:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The contributions made by user 78.3.44.217 have some basis. WP:NCGN suggests that in case of more than three different names “all alternative names can be moved to and explainied in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead”. On the contrary for Zadar we have a “Name” section and an internal link “historic names”. Both are not consistent with WP:NCGN. A “Name” section is not consistent with a plurality of alternative names . A “Historic names" section (or link) can create ambiguity between archaic names and names presently used in other languages. In case of toponyms with a plurality of exonyms, endonyms and historic names the correct solution is a “ETYMOLOGY AND OTHER NAMES” section with an internal link “SEE OTHER NAMES” following the lead. That is not only my opinion but it is the solution systematically used in English Wikipedia. If you need help about the correct use use of toponyms do not hesitate to contact me for examples. Fabioantonello ( talk) 14:03, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Why this article is so subjective? There's vanished story about "Crystal night in Zadar" when on the 2nd of May 1991. Croats did horrible ethnic cleansing of 11 000 of Serbs and crashing Serb houses and shops, including cafe "Time out" of basketball player Serb ethnicity Marko Popovic (who today plays for Croat team). http://www.jadovno.com/intervjui-reportaze/articles/zaboravljena-zadarska-kristalna-noc.html 79.175.102.27 ( talk) 16:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I am curious why Grifter72 changed "Under the Austrian Empire Zadar was subject to the same policy" to "After Italian unification, under the Austrian Empire Zadar was subject to the same policy" The policy was enacted some years before the completion of Italian unification, as is shown by the quote that Silvio1973 provided from Emperor Franz Joseph. While the explicit policy may have been inspired by growing Italian nationalism, that should be stated and shown by citation, and not by an implied assumption. Congruity in time is not causation ([[David Hume#Causation|Hume). The Austrian policy is only unusual for having been so explicitly stated. Most conquerors throughout history have employed a similar policy, look, for example, at the French policy in the Languedoc, Brittany and Normandy. -- Bejnar ( talk) 16:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I linked Treccani... if you understeand Italian: "Negli anni Cinquanta e Sessanta, nel dibattito legato alle riforme costituzionali dell'Impero asburgico, i Croati, sostenuti dagli Ungheresi, aprirono una vivace polemica chiedendo l'unione della Dalmazia alla Croazia. Costituita nel 1861 la Dieta di Zara, si sarebbero confrontati al suo interno due partiti, l'autonomista e l'annessionista, l'uno sostenitore di una provincia autonoma all'interno della cornice asburgica, l'altro favorevole alla sua unione con la Croazia e la Slavonia in un'unica entità politico-amministrativa. Lo scontro era destinato a concludersi in un primo tempo con la vittoria dei Dalmati italiani, i quali avevano in quel momento il sostegno di Vienna ed erano favoriti dai provvedimenti insiti nella patente del febbraio 1861. Da parte dell'elemento croato era forte la volontà - sia in Dalmazia, sia in Croazia e Slavonia - di intervenire nella realtà politica ottenendo una trasformazione federale della monarchia." -- Grifter72 ( talk) 21:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, this is not directly indicated but Italian unification happened between 1861 and 1870 (Rome). Before Vienna was for the Dalmatian autonomists (this is reported by Treccani); on November 1866 Franz Joseph did is declaration against Italian elements in Dalmatia, Tyrol and Istria.-- Grifter72 ( talk) 21:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes Director, this is one of the causes but remember that Franz Joseph also cited South Tyrol. -- Grifter72 ( talk) 22:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I do not completely agree. I replaced "Italian unification" with "1866" that gives to everyone a possibility of an interpretation.-- Grifter72 ( talk) 07:28, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Come on Grifter72. This still create a link of causation.
However, I have put During the second part of the 19th century to reach consensus.
Also, I do not like the cn because it looks the entire sentence require a source. Do we need sources for things so evident? If the answer is yes I will provide one. And I do not understand why the reference to Franz Joseph has been removed from the text. This is EXTREMELY relevant. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 16:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Can I have an explanation about this thing of This compound sentence lacks a parallel structure? Thank you. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 10:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
The sentence in question is: Until the beginning of the century it had been of moderate intensity and mainly of a class nature (under Venetian rule the Italians were employed in the most profitable activities, such as trade and administration), but with the development of the modern concept of national identity across Europe, national conflicts start to mark the political life of Zadar. The subject of the first part is it namely conflict between Italian and Croatian communities, the subject of the second part is national conflicts. I suspect that national conflicts is a euphemism for something else, since it does not mean "conflicts between nations". The sentence would have a parallel structure if the second half dealt with what the non-class nature of the altered conflict was, and dealt with the new "level of intensity" if there was one. If not, then intensity doesn't belong in the sentence. Parallel would be: The conflict was of X intensity and based on unequal opportunities in the workplace, but after Y events, the conflict was of Z intensity and based on differing political goals. Maybe shorter sentences would help. However it is rewritten, I hope that someone will have an appropriate citation to substantiate the data. -- Bejnar ( talk) 10:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 04:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
The sentence has been rewritten. I have also removed from the text the reference to the Panslavism. I cannot justify with a valid source other than the book from Monzali but this book is already quoted twice in this article and cannot be resonably used in support of a third statement. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 12:21, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you all want Il Regio Dalmata - Kraglski Dalmatin to be discussed under "19th Century" or under "Culture"? Right now almost the exact same text is duplicated in the article. -- Bejnar ( talk) 11:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Grifter72 ( talk) 14:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 04:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 05:05, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Jolicnikola just changed the mayor of Zadar from Zvonimir Vrančić to Božidar Kalmeta. Kalmeta won the recent election, in the first round he garnered 48.43% to Ivo Bilic's 31.98%, and in the second round it was 57% to Bilic's 40.38%. ( Božidar Kalmeta - Pročitaj najnovije članke vezane uz ...) But until Kalmeta takes office, I think that it is premature to change the name. If Kalmeta has already taken office, does someone have a citation to a reliable source for that fact? -- Bejnar ( talk) 19:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Damjanić Vrgadski family whose correct and complete surname name is Damiani di Vergada Gliubavaz Frangipani Detrico has never lost the Comital Title in 1860 (tha's an untruth declartion): the Comital Title is still existing as still existing are males members of this family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.19.202.200 ( talk) 08:05, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia naming conventions: "other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages" or "alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead". There's no mention for a "Etymology and historical names" such as used in the page. It is recommended to avoid creating sections with different titles. This may lead to confusion, and this is the case. The section is ambiguously misleading about historical names and relevant foreign language names suggesting that some names have only a historical value. There is also no mention of the German and Hungarian names. Relevant foreign language names are to be mentioned as such at the beginning of the section and not to be mixed with archaic names. If in doubt please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28geographic_names%29 62.211.130.244 ( talk) 08:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
On 2 August 2014 IP editor 93.143.11.208 changed the climate figures. Are the new figures any more accurate? If there are updated figures at Weatherbase then the citation should be updated from the current 2011 data. -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
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There is a request for comments that is likely of interest to this article at Talk:Rajka_Baković#Request for comments. --- Otr500 ( talk) 16:26, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
The lead section has too many paragraphs. Of the eight, six are about the city's history – they could easily be combined into just two or three. MOS:LEAD says there should be four at most; exceptions can happen, but I don't think more than five paragraphs in total is necessary in this case, especially since they're so short.
As for the tourism part: I think a new section should be created, possibly a subsection of #Economy. Also, there probably shouldn't be an external link to the "Best destinations" portal. Wikipedia:External links says that "[external links] should not normally be placed in the body of an article".
Unrelated to the above: the very short #Science section could be merged into #Education. ~barakokula31 (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
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During the period of the Venetian Empire and Austro-Hungarian rule the cartographers named this city ZARA. Surely this should be reflected in the article? 2A00:23C4:B63A:1800:D6E:762F:5EF0:54C0 ( talk) 16:00, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
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Proactive steps that should be taken from now on, and whenever entering into a discussion with another editor you should:
PLEASE MAKE YOUR REQUESTS SHORT; LESS THAN 500 WORDS
What would you like to see happen on Zadar?
I cannot socialize with an agenda warrior. In every moment I was ready for discussion with arguments, hundreds of lines I wrote to Silvio and here in just 2 weeks are showing what my attitude is. However it needs 2 (or more) for building consensus. I don't understand a person who forces his own POV and speaks about consensus, but refusing to even try to reach it in the same time. I'm not sure what to expect from this mediation, but I'm sure something must be done so the article can be edited by quality. Until now there wasn't any contribution in that direction from the other side. And his comment below shows that nothing has changed. So what can I expect? Turning in circles next 6 months because of his POV interpretations? Like, he's changed his position a few inches, and that is all folks! This is embarassing. It is apsurd that we had this long discussion and mediation about shall we involve an extremist view or not! However I hope things can change. Otherwise I wouldn't spent my time here. Zenanarh ( talk) 14:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
My proposal is adding in the section "19th and 20th century" the sentence:
The archives of the official Austro-Hungarian censi conducted at the end of 19th century shows that Italian was the language spoken by the majority of the people in the city, but only by a third of the population in the entire county.
In order to reach consensus I do not insist to report the exact figures from the censi. Of course I am ready yo accept any rephrasing from an English mother tongue user.
What would you like to see happen on Luciano Laurana?
In wikipedia there was all bunch of irredentist agenda attackers, who were more or less wiped off, Croatian wiki community was more numerous earlier, it was easier to detect them. They are not "all Italians", or "all Italian wikipedians", just some poor bunch of people who have nothing better to do in their lives. And there are 10 to 20 articles related to Dalmatia under such attacks, almost continually. Lucijan Vranjanin / Luciano Laurana Schiavon is just one person encroached by the Italians. Georgius Dalmaticus (Dalmatian), Francius Petricius (Schiavone),... And Lucijan / Luciano case is typical. He stayed some period in Italy where he specialized architecture and contributed to Italian Renaissance (many Croats and Dalmatians were going to Italian art schools as well as many other Europeans did). He worked in Dalmatia too. But he was a Croat as his nickname "Sciavon" in Italy said, one from Medieval "name-surname-ethnicity" signature formula, Luciano Laurana Schiavon in Italy. So although he had Croatian surname and was born in Croatian town and self-declared as the Croat, Italian literature defines him as the Italian. They have problem in accepting that a Croat was one of the greatest architects from period of Italian Renaissance. They have the same problem with any eminent Croat and Dalmatian coming from Dalmatia. What to say? What to expect? I expect to see evidence of his Italian ethnicity. Only in that case we can step into any discussion concerning reaching consensus. It is not question of Croatian source, Italian source or Martian one. It is question of reliability. There is no any evidence of his Italian ethnicity, there are direct evidences of his Croatian ethnicity. If there is no evidence, just "naked definitions" like "Italian sculptor" in Italian literature, then it is false and that literature is not reliable. Zenanarh ( talk) 15:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
As discussed, I can cite at least 3 international sources (all of them not Italian and verifiable on line) in support of the Italian origins of Laurana.
In view of the difference of quality, reputation and quantity of the supporting sources, my request is to re-establish the reference of Laurana being Italian and to remove the Croatian claim (currently the Croatian origin of this artist is supported only by 2 Croatian sources). The Croatian origin of the artist should be removed from the lead part of the article, until some equally reputable international sources will not be provided in support of the claim.
In order to achieve consensus and to respect the work of the authors of the sources mentioned by Zenanarh, I am fine if at the end of the Biography section (therefore not in the lead section of the article) it will be reported that some Croatian sources consider Luciano Laurana of Croatian origins.
In the lead section, the article states as follows:
Luciano Laurana (Lutiano Dellaurana, Croatian: Lucijan Vranjanin)[1] (c. 1420 – 1479) was a Croatian [2][3] architect and engineer from the historic Vrana settlement near the town of Zadar in Dalmatia, Croatia.[4] After education by his father Martin in Vrana settlement, he worked mostly in Italy during the late 15th century.
The article states that he is Croatian because he was born in Croatia. Then, it states that he worked most of his life in Italy. So, there is no need to change his nationality to Italian. For example, a Canadian who immigrates to the United States is called a Canadian because he was born and is representing, per say, Canada in the United States.
Again please consider that before the edit war started the articles was stating he was Italian and Croatian. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 15:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
In the questioned section of the article, the article states as follows:
After 1815 Dalmatia (including Dubrovnik) came under the Austrian crown. After 1848, Italian and Slavic nationalism became accentuated and the city became divided between the Croats and the Italians, both of whom founded their respective political parties. There are conflicting sources for both sides claiming to have formed the majority in Zadar in this period.
The article states there are conflicting sources for both sides claiming to who formed the majority in Zadar. I don't see the need to discuss further about one particular census as I don't find it particuarly more important than any other census conducted during that time period.
Article State: Leave the articles as they are right now.
Zenanarh: I know that you are becoming increasingly irriated with problems throughout Wikipedia namespace, in particular, when there is questioning with Croatian articles. However, I must remind you that personal attacks are not welcome by the community and are punishable by blocks nor do personal attacks allow you to "win" discussions. Instead next time, I ask that you use the 4 steps mentioned above when dealing with persistent editors.
Silvio1973: I know that you are a fairly new editor to Wikipedia and we appreciate your efforts to bring your contributions to Wikipedia. However, I ask that you remember to look at Wikipedia's policies before suggesting ideas as they may not meet the criteria, as this happened for this dispute.
Whenaxis
talk Join the
Imposter Verification Team!
23:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Whenaxis, I actually did use 4 steps: 1) Consider the other editor's point of view. - it's enough to see how much energy I've lost in discussion with Silvio before your coming; 2) Do not disruptively edit through edit warring and reversions. - In my eyes I wasn't edit warring at all, I was reverting an extremist view, something which is normal in wikipedia, question is only whether more wider community can recognize it as an extremist view, this particular problem is obiously not known so well to wider community; 3) Do not use personal attacks to get your point across. - I have never meant to get my point across with personal attacks, but is it really personal attack to warn someone about his/her extremist position? OK maybe I've lost nerves here and there but it was nothing serious, I was actually calling Silvio to reconsider his position and arguments. 4) Rely on Wikipedia policies to determine a resolution. - that was exactly what I was doing. You can see it in all my posts. If there is something I've missed, please inform me. At the end, thank you for your contribution, I hope we will not meet this way too often in the future. All the best.
Silvio, what to say... You are still confusing things: Still I need to remind you that by the time Luciana Laurana born, Vrana was not in Croatia but under the Republic of Venice - weren't you the one who stated that there were no nationalities in Renaissance? Nationality is concept of modern nations and modern sovereign national states. Lucijan was a Croat by ethnicitiy and not nationality. Ethnicity has/had nothing to do with borders. People who were born within the borders of Republic of Venice were not the Venetians, they were what they were by ethnicity; the Venetians were only people in city of Venice, those whose roots were Venetian - from that city. but this decision will not give stability to the article because stating on ethnicity on the basis of current borders it's quite arguable - ethnicity has nothing to do with past or current political borders. It is strange that you are confusing these things. Really strange. Zenanarh ( talk) 08:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Of course I meant Dalmatian and this was my proposal, by the way. But when I did it you said it was "chauvinist". Why?-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 10:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
That a user fairly new to Wikipedia like me could make a mistake in understanding policies is possible, that an experienced user (as you pretend to be) could relate to the others the way you do this is regrettable. You do not respect the others, how can you expect respect from the others? And I will not answer to your next answer because you always need to have the last word. I leave this to you. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 12:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Whenaxis, I do not discuss about the decision of the mediator. Rules are rules. But I need some clarifications.
What surprises me is the ground of your decision concerning Luciano Laurana. I would have been fine (although not happy) if you had been convinced after all our discussion that he was of Croatian ethnicity. But stating that he should be classified as Croatian because today Vrana is part of Croatia is somehow confusing. Based on your approach Ataturk should be considered Greek because he born in Thessaloniki or Garibaldi should be considered French because was born in Nice. A decision based on your ground will not give stability to the article because stating on ethnicity on the basis of current borders it's quite arguable.
Also, if the your decision is to leave the articles as they were before the edit war, then you should leave this version
[2], i.e. the version before the edit war started.
For the sake of clarity I need to remember that my initial proposal was to declare Luciano Laurana as Dalmatian in order to avoid discussion and to be in harmony with the main Wikipedia in the other languages (such as the Spanish and the German).
Concerning Zadar I acknowledge your decision. Still you did not reply to the request of third opinion. My request was to state about the acceptability of the census as primary source. And we did not receive a clear statement concerning this.
To conclude, I have reported Zenanarh's behaviour on the Administrator's Board. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 07:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
It greatly surprised me that Zenanarh opened up in a friendly manner. I guess people can change. That made my day and made me smile. As per Silvio's comments, I still remain to my point that I don't think that the census is an intrigual or important part of the article as per WP:UNDUE. Silvio, I really appreciate your contributions and your good faith edits but it doesn't really conform with Wikipedia standards. All the best, Whenaxis talk Join the Imposter Verification Team! 00:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
It 's quite surprising that the Italian name Zara was canceled. One can easily prove that for centuries the only name by which the city was known in the world was Zara and not Zadar. For a native English speaker, the term Zadar was completely unknown until the end of World War II. You can see any English or American atlas of the time.
If you go back to past centuries you find that all European maps used Zara instead of Zadar. Let’s see for example these maps published in Belgium, Holland. Germany, Austria from XVI to XIX. All of them use the term “Zara”.
Histriae tabula a Pedro Coppo descri. - Zarae, et Sebenici Descri. Artist: Ortelius, Abraham Published: Antwerp Date: 1573
Nova et accurata Tabula Regnorum et Provinciarum Dalmatiae, Croatiae, Sclavoniae, Bosniae, Serviae, Istriae, et Reip. Ragusanae, cum finitimis Regionibus Studio et Impensis Matthaei Seutteri, S. Caes. et reg. Cathol. Majest. Geographi edita Augustae Vindelicor. Artist: Seutter, Matthaeus Published: Augsburg, M. Seutter, Date: 1720
Koenigreich Illyrien - nach der neuesten Begrenzung, und vorzueglichsten Huelfsmitteln verfast. - in Wien bey Tranquillo Mollo. Artist: Mollo, Tranquillo Published: Wien Date: 1816-22
Iadera, Sicum et Aenona vulgo Zara, Sibenico et Nona cum Insulis Adjacentibus in Parte Dalmatiae Boreali Artist: Jan Janssonius Published: Amsterdam Date: 1650
But even more interesting is the following map published not abroad but in Zara
Map of Dalmatia Author: Zavoreo Published: Zara Date:1811
Even a local map doesn’t use the name “Zadar”.
That’s to say that it’s totally unacceptable the cancellation of the Italian name of Zara. Zara was for centuries the only name by which native English speakers and generally all Europeans knew this city. Deny this truth is an offense to European history and civilization. This will be brought to the attention of the administrators of wiki and everyone will assume its responsibility before the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.41.209.188 ( talk) 18:02, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Nothing really new. You can try to make your point prevail but you will only lose your time. Personally I believe that whatever evidence you will bring in support, this will be refused for some reasons. This page is currently very well patrolled by a number of contributors (90 of them from the same country) that do not tolerate any change and patrol very well this page. One fo the objective of this article is to describe events and facts in the specific way to demonstrate that the ethnic structure of the city has been the same for century. If this is false or true this does not matter. This can be proved easily. Two thirds of the sources are from then same country and most of them are even not in Englsh. So I would like to understand how it is possible to check their reliability. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 20:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Hallo Italian nationalists. I'm patroller no. 78 ;-p 83.131.72.65 ( talk) 08:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, this is not an issue of policies. If you look on the recent history of this page you will see that I have roll-backed and reverted changes to this page made from Italian nationalists. So your comment does not apply to me. My problem is not the name Zadar/Zara, this has been discussed enough. The issue with this page is that absolutely legitimate sources such as the Austro-Hungarian census are not admitted, because they are not in line with Croatian nationalism. Census are used everywhere as source but here are not admitted because they demonstrate the opposite of what please to some nationalists. This is a real problem and as administrator you should be concerned by this. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Croatian nationalism is something frankly embarrassing and completely out of the common European feeling. Reading this article leaves stunned, astonished because of its lack of objectivity. Even the denial of the Italian name of the city is something that has no equivalent in the pages of wikipedia. Let’s examine the articles that refer to cities, regions that changed sovereignty after the World War II. The previous name is always mentioned after the current official name. It’s true for every town, village whose sovereignty was transferred from Germany to Poland (Gdansk, Wroclaw, Opole, Legnica, Glogow, Jelenia Gora, Nysa, Klukzbork, Liberk, Koszalin, Lebork, Elblank, Ostroda, Olsztyn, Lawa, Ketrzyn, etc.etc. ) or from Gemany to Lithuania (Memel) or Russia (Kaliningrad, Tilsit etc.) The same for every village, town passed from Hungary to Ukraine, from Poland to Ukraine, from Poland to Lithuania, You find the Hungarian name for the cities belonging to the kingdom of Hungary and now in Romania, Slovakia. We can go on with other examples from all over Europe but it is useless because....because Croatia is different.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.211.135.171 ( talk) 12:28, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, this issue of the name is quite minor. And however reading trough the article the Italian version of the name is quoted (better than nothing). What concerns me the most is the actual content of the article, namely the information about the number of Zadar's inhabitants using Italian during the XIX century and the actual contribution of Venice to the history of the people.
The thing is that the population of Zadar always showed a strong duality in terms of culture but reading the article there is very little reference to it. For some reasons some editors of this article whish to deny a number of facts about the history of this city.
I lived for three years in Transilvania (Romania) and I never met a single ethnic Romanian from Transilvania denying the influence of Austro-Hungarian culture on this region of modern Romania. It was never denied to the Hungarians of Transilvania the right to keep his culture, to learn their language, they were never pushed out of their houses, never lost their properties and still one century later there are vast regions of Romania with 80% of people speaking Hungaria. Exactly as in Italy there is an entire region where the most of the people speak German.
And I have to read in this talk page that the Italian are the nationalists... 'Franchement c'est vraiment n'importe quoi !'
Yes, Croatia is different.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
12:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, I am not a fascist and not a nationalist. I am just moderately upset because sources like official censi are refused in this page. This is against Wiki policy and the argument that they are primary source is just a pretest (in hundreds of other article they are used and accepted without any problem). This is my REAL problem and if you do not mind I would like to have your opinion as administrator about this matter. PS I agree all all your points but please give consideration to my request above. This is a real concern. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 17:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Research is work and trust me that collecting all the evidence that I reported above took me quite a lot of work.
I have two issues with this article.
1. Reporting the results of the a/u censi conducted around the end of XIX century in Zadar. I still do not understand why - with the due caution required when using primary sources - these sources are not eligible for this article.
And let's be very clear. The information requested during the censi was to report the primary language of use, not the ethnicity. In any case a link between language of use and ethnicty could not be made.
2. This article has a prominence of nearly 2/3 of non English sources. If at some extent it is acceptable to have non-English sources, on the other hand this proportion is here excessive because the most of those sources are Croatian or Yougoslavian and therefore difficult to check for an English speaker; And on top of that there is the potential conflict of interest of using Croatian sources to support claims on such a contested article. Please check WP:NOENG, WP:NONENG, WP:SOURCEACCESS.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
18:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
"Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation..."
1. If there is room we should not restrict to one census. I propose to add as much as information it's possible, of course provided the modification it's brief (less than 30 words) and does not give the smallest chance of any nationalist interpretation.
2. This is a bigger discussion. Let's start with the first one, then I will highlight the relevant points where IMHO some international sources, if they exist, should apply.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
21:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
I will come with q proposal for number 1 later today (and I will make all the efforts to stick the most to the source and be the most "aseptic" is possible).
I do not even want to speak of sizeable Italian population, because this would be historically inaccutate. It's enough to stick to the census and write "declaring Italian as first language".
Concerning 2 there is no problem "per se" if the sources are from Croatia/FYR. The issue exists only when there is conflict between those and sources from other countries (i.e. Italian, but not necesserely). In such cases English sources should be preferred. As soon I have time I will make a list of those conflictual parts (4 or 5).
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
05:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I propose to add to the existing text the following sentence.
In order to reach consensus and give to this modification the biggest chance to survive I suggest not to report the exact figures. The reader will have the possibility to get more knowledgeable going trough the sources, for those available on the Web.
The archives of the official austro-hungarian censi conducted aroud the end of 19th century show that Italian was the primary language spoken by the majority of the people in the city, but only by a third of the population in the entire county.
Primary and secondary sources supporting this affirmation:
I suggest to explore the room for consensus about this first proposal before going trough the other topics. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, the sentence in italic is the proposed addition. Feel free to change it if there is any possibility to make it even more factual. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, I genuinely don't know. Ask to the ones that were against or go trough the talk pages if you want (and have the time). I think they were (and still are) against because they considered it was historically incorrect or against wikipedia policies. Possibly some opposition existed because my contributions are considered extremist, nationalist and irredentistic. Perhaps I did not manage to defend my position with sufficient clarity.
However, can we go ahead with this modification?
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
15:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I have just added the modification, but I doubt that they will resist. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
@Grifter72. I have modified in the sense of your suggestion. Ideally it would be appropriate to put along with my two recents modification some numbers but I doubt that everyone will appreciate it. What'a your opinion? -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 15:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted this modification for a few obvious reasons.
"(mostly Romance Dalmatians and Northern Italians). This somehow altered the ethnic structure that previously had a Slavik Dalmatian majority. Under the pressur of the population increase,"
1. There were no Romance Dalmatians (speakers of Dalmatian) in Dalmatia in the 19th century. Across Dalmatia, they had been assimilated by the Croats much earlier, during Medieval and Renaissance. Peolpe who moved were the Italians and pro-Italians. Pro-Italians were Croats, supporters of the Autonomist Party and not Dalmatian Romance speakers, they were bilinguals Croatian/Italian.
2. Italians who moved from the south of Dalmatia to Zadar at the end of the 19th century were not mostly Northern Italians, they were Italian immigrants from different regions of Italy.
3. This immigration to Zadar did change demographic structure of the city during last 3 decencies of the 19th century but it didn't alter the ethnic structure to such degree. Italians made majority in the city only from 1920 (when Italian army came) and later, due to emigration of the Croats from the city ruled by the fascist Italy.
4. Modification is not written in English. It's written in some hybrid English.
You can do better. And when you do, use source. 93.143.17.40 ( talk) 13:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
3. The sources I removed are in conflict with many other sources shown in mediation: "but only by a third of the population in the entire county" - this is incorrect. Not 1/3! It's incorrect also from other reason too, it doesn't says that Italian was spoken by many Croatian speakers. This way it looks like 30% of county population spoke Italian and 70% Croatian - nonsense. The only objective words to say would be: cca 15% of county population was able to speak Italian too. Since almost all of them were Croats. There were no Italians out of the city.
4. You're right, the other editor made that mistake in this page earlier and caused my mistake too.
It seems you are not objective. Maybe this article should be protected from you? 93.143.17.40 ( talk) 14:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
No. Unfortunately I'm not Zenanarh. It would be much better if Zenanarh comes here. Don't get me wrong but I think his knowledge about Zadar is higher dimension for 3 of you. I'm just in love with Zadar history, I've been following Zenanarh's discussion with Silvio and mediation. And this modification was stupid even to my amateur level of knowledge. Also pro-Italians were not Italians. They were declaring as Dalmatians, Italo-Slavs and Italo-Dalmatians and not Italians. 93.143.17.40 ( talk) 14:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
You have nice ammount of data shown in mediation here. Use it to use proper terminology and to avoid presentation of selective data such as 1/3 county population detail, which is completely false info, I think it's invented by Silvio. 93.143.17.40 ( talk) 14:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
(removed a personal attack) This is very suspicious. All these new IP "Zadar enthusiasts" are from Zagreb, whereas Zenanarh is quiet. I'd like to have them checked against Zenenarh. With the IP explicitly claiming he's "not Zenanarh" (but he "loves him nevertheless" :)), should he actually turn out to be Zen that would be sockpuppeteering warranting an indeff block.
Last chance before an SPI: is that Zenanarh? -- Director ( talk) 16:30, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
You are fascinating, everybody are zenanar to you. Is Zenanarh thorn in your eye? And I'm 93.143.17.40 from 23 February 2012, writing from Zadar and not from Zagreb. These numbers are changing. I didn't disappear. I'm only not so sick to sleep here every day for hours. 78.3.55.167 ( talk) 14:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Silvio1973 that the name (Zadar-Zara) is not the main problem of this article but nevertheless it is a problem. Let me be clear: I will not enter the debate between Croatian and Italian points of view about the history and ethnic or linguistic composition of the population. I do not even care that Zara was the Italian and Hungarian official name, although this is not a negligible fact. I want to approach the problem from another perspective: the native English speaker perspective. A very important information is missing from the text: Zara was the only ENGLISH name for centuries. Generations of English speakers knew this town only as Zara and all English sources before World War II report the name Zara. In according with WP:NCGN the title should be followed in the first line by the past widely used English name, which coincides with the Hungarian and Italian name. This is a lack of a basic information for any English reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.1.201.80 ( talk) 20:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 16:42, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The article currently reports the sentence The Venetians restrained the political and economical autonomy of Zadar when speaking of the city in the period XV-XVIII centuries. This sentence has to be supported with sources. And I would really like to see such sources, if exist. Indeed it is exactly the opposite. Zadar become capital of Venetian Dalmatia and the most of cultural and artistic development that makes today this city known world-wide had place during tthis period. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 10:09, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Not true. Whene Venetians came in 1409, they started to destroy the city as they already had done earlier, like in 1202 and 1343. Symbol of Zadar St. Donat is just a half of a monumental building, Venetians destroyed the other half. The most of churches had been built before the Venetians came, Venetians built only new city walls, castle at the north-west of the city where they were hiding from angry citizens and a few storehouses. Zadar had a few flourishing periods in its history: 1st half of the Iron Age, 1st-3rd century under Rome and 13th, 14th century under Croatian-Hungarian kings - in all cases it was when the city was well connected to its background. Venetians cut it off from its background and stopped its developement. Before 1409 Zadar was also a capital of Dalmatia for long 8 centuries. It is obvious what Venetian role was, Dubrovnik stayed out of Venetian Republic and continued to develop, the other Dalmatian cities fell down politically, economically and culturally under Venice. 78.3.55.167 ( talk) 14:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Zadar was the capital of the Venetian possessions in Dalmatia for almost 4 centuries. If the intent of some contributors is to reduce the role of Venice to pure occupation and destruction this is a significant fact and must be sourced. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 16:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Silvio1973, your approach to the problem is wise and fair but it allows paradoxical situations. if in English wiki you type “Zara” (the widely used English name) you find a disambiguation page with “Zara, Italian, Venetian, German and Hungarian name of the Adriatic port city of Zadar (and its official name from the 15th to the 20th century), former capital of Dalmatia, today in Croatia” This is probably the very first approach to Zara/Zadar for a native English speaker, except for the tourists who know the present name of the town. There is a consistency problem with the redirection page "Zadar" which doesn't mention tha name "Zara". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.45.201.235 ( talk) 13:57, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
This part of the discussion is not about the name of the city. Please let's keep the discussions separated, the talk pages about this article are already a mess. I will answer to your comments in the relevant part above. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 16:04, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
DIREKTOR you can not be apodictic about the problem of the name. In the presence of arguments clearly not irrelevant you should justify it. I invite you to examine systematically En Wiki policy about regions, towns, villages whose sovereignty changed after WW II in Europe. You will always find the present official name followed by tha past one. I can cite hundreds of examples Please justify, if you can, the reason why Zadar is a unique and clamorous exception. I'll be waiting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.25.203.163 ( talk) 15:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Neo-fascist revisionism of Silvio1973 and his Snoopy. 78.3.118.184 ( talk) 08:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't know who is 78.3.118.184. Certainly he/she is not very courageous because is hiding back of an IP address. It is somehow interesting to be qualified of Neo-fascist by such iper-nationalist users. Perhaps with the integration of Croatia in the UE things will improve. I hope, at least. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 09:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
EU didn't help Italians to clean their house. It's worse. Fascism only escalated in Italy, we know how student demonstrations in Rome are tretated, first dickhead neo-nazis in black clothes are beating students, police is never there, then after they're finished and run away, police is coming to beat the rest of students. There are no such groups or incidents in Croatia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.44.217 ( talk) 10:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The statements of users 78.3.118.184, 78.3.44.217 do not deserve any response. Fabioantonello ( talk) 11:21, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Is it possible to stop these actions of disturbance? -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 11:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I have modified and moved some sections of text and added some information concerning the period of time between the beginning of WWI and the Treaty of Rapallo. Also included some information and a source about the genesis of the confict between Italian and Croatian communities. I tried to be as brief as possible but the number of events marking this period of history are numerous so it is difficult to be brief and clear at the same time. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 11:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, this thing of the name in the lead is fairly minor. It's just a thin layer of paint and any careful reader can read trough getting trough the rest the article. Indeed I am much more interested about the rest of the article, namely:
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 06:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Class conflict - what a nonsense. The Italians - trading, administration, military; Croats - handcrafting and agricolture. Are you aware how racistical your views are? So people who were running the city for centuries, defending it against continual Venetian attacks, controlling trade route in the Adriatic, organizing union of Dalmatian cities and political relations of the province suddenly became handcrafters and agriculturists? Just like that? And where the hell were the Croats supposed to be agriculturists in the city? Agriculture in the city? And how are we supposed to interpret rasistical Venetian laws proclaimed immidiatelly after they had entered in the city, so 90% of the city population - all domestic people were not allowed to contribute in the politics, economics and cultural life of the city anymore, all city nobility was persecutted, Venetians captured 40 hostages from every noble family and sent them to Venetian prisons just to break resistence of the noblemen and citizens, so the carriers of political life noblemen became just a group of Harlequins, according to these laws sex between Venetians and Croats was not allowed - pure racism, absolute majority of the city was not allowed to use their language in their cultural developement, since the Venetians weren't succesful in Italianizing the city and they were constantly afraid of any possible cultural rise of the city population, they even decided to close up the oldest university in the SEE - Zadar University (established in the 14th century) because it was run by the Benedictines who had close connections to Croats from the beginning of their presence at this side of Adriatic and so on. Your ideas of some cultural and economical prosperity of Dalmatia under Venice are fairytales for little children. The fall of Dalmatian cities was basic condition for rise of Venice. When Dalmatian cities were strong until 1409, Venice was stagnating. When Venice bought and colonized Dalmatia, these cities stagnated and Venice developed rapidly. Class conflict reflected in use of language was result of Venetian rule in Dalmatia at the beginning of the 19th century! There had been no any kind of class conflict reflected in the etnicities (why do you use word nationality, do you know what nationality means?)before 1409, since there had been no Venetians to start such segregation. Croats and Dalmatians (by language) were one and the same body. First learn history of this city. 78.0.166.164 ( talk) 12:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, a few things.
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 15:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Answering point-by-point. Please be honest in your responses.
-- Director ( talk) 15:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor I try always to be honest. Sometime I might not be because I can make mistakes, but this is a different matter.
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 08:26, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes Direktor, Italian Fascists (the most extreme fraction) was in direct link with the Ustase and we will probably have time in future to discuss about the role that Croatian Ustase had with Italian Fascists in the deportation of numbers of Jews but perhaps not in this talk page. So if you do not mind we might speak about the other issues because they require urgent treatment and that I kindly submit to your cordial attention. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 15:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
What a discovery Direktor! Italian fascism was the first extreme right dictature of the XX century to estabilish in Europe. All the others (starting from Hitler) learnt at some extent from them. The thing that is regrettable of the section concerning the WWII of this article is that describe the events that touched the population of Zadar as the (almost) pure responsability of Germany and Italy.
Concerning the other points, I am not going to remove everything that is not sourced because I am not an inquisitor. This is not my objective. The only thing that interest me it's the truth (or at least what is closer to the truth). If there are sources describing the conflicts between Croats and Italians during the XIX century as being - at least partially - a class conflict, it is relevant to report it. If there are sources claiming that this is false, it would be great to know.
However I am going to propose some modifications (as usual with the mildest and most neutral tone) and we will discuss afterwards.
PS I don't know if they really "cultivated" them, but if it was the case the quality of the result was certainly due to the quality of the pupils rather than of the teacher. Come on man, what was done in Jasenovac was quite a job if you think to the limited means they had.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
04:51, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, Ustase were trained in Italy in the 30's. This is a fact largely sourced. There is no problem about that. Please have a look to the modifications I have added. Let me know what do you think. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 14:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The objective was to favour the Croatian element to limit the development of the Italian culture (and avoid any potential irredentism). Also the Croats were considered more loyal to the Crown. However what I reported is the translation of what the Emperor said (or at least what is reported to have been said in the archives). As a translation contains always an element of subjectivity, give me a few time and I will report to you the exact quote of the text (in German, of course). Then you will judge. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 06:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
There was more complexity. Dalmatians in that years maturated a self-consciousness to be Croats (narodni preporod). A lot of them were perfect bilingual. Šime Ljubić spoke better Italian than Croat language, but felt to be a Croat. This was not artificially created by Austrians.-- Grifter72 ( talk) 14:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
@Grifter72
1. The Austrians did not create anything. But the Austrians were masters in managing the ethnical conflicts.
2. This is the reason why we speak clearly of people using Italian language and try to avoid as much as possible the ethnic reference. Still at the end of the XIX century there was an ethnic division, albeit this division did not correspond neither to the language used neither to the surnames of the people (people with apparently Slavik names were almost irredentist and others with Romance names felt fully Croat).
@Direktor
I have the original text in German and I will put on the talk page as soon as possible (I need to format it to report all the special symbols). It is very clear and speak by itself. The source is quoted so everyone can check the consistency if wished. Please wait a few hours more.
La pazienza e' la virtu' dei forti
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
15:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
In future forget completely about such details. Although since we're not using English-language sources (which is discouraged on en-Wiki, as you know) it would be nice if you translated it.. The point is to move on with the discussion. Please provide:
Whom exactly are you quoting up there? The author, or the primary source he's using? Is the author referring to the Emperor as "Majesty"? And again. If you would like to quote the Emperor's statement I do not think it appropriate to just quote half a sentence.
I won't revert you again, but for future reference: please do not under any circumstances start revert-warring. You introduced the change, there were some objections and it was removed. Do not restore opposed new changes without consensus. Have you seen the notice above? -- Director ( talk) 05:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
To answer to your question:
I see your point about the revert, but don't you think it would have been perhaps more appropriate to put a cn on the disputed part? Reverting afterards it's never an easy job if in the meantime other changes have been made.
If you are fine we can report the entire passage and put in the notes the full passage in German, though this sounds to me extremely heavy.
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
09:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
No Direktor, there is nothing of confusing.
How do you want to format the modification on the article? I can quote only Monzali in the article, but it is important to write down that at the origin this affirmation come from the mouth of French Joseph. Very important. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 11:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, there is no game going on. Let's repeat again.
If the sentence itself does represent an issue for you because it is a primary source, then I will report the opinion of Monzali about the matter. Still I think it is more valuable to report the citation from Emperor French Joseph rathen than the opinion from an historian.
If we start removing from en:wiki all the sentences of kings, dictators, presidents, emperors (just because primary source) and so we would really make a massacre
--
Silvio1973 (
talk)
17:59, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, I share your very same concern. We need to find a balance (if possible and if it exists) between facts and valid sources.
If this balance does not exist, clearly the sources cannot be admitted. And in this case it is not the opinion of Monzali that counts, but the citation of French Joseph. The first one could be biased, not the second.
I can give you others sources (German) citing the same reference to this Austrian Crown citation.
What Emperor French Joseph is a fact. I can sustain with other German secondary sources. Now ignoring this based on the technicality that is a primary source equates to say that whatever secondary source is preferable to a primary source, even if this can be tracked in secondary sources. This would be an arguable principle.
Still there is need to cut - at least - to cut the existing text. This would not comply to WP:UNDUE. Indeed for that reason I did not want to put the whole citation. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 05:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
I share your very same concern, but please consider that this article is full of sources dating the last 20 years and I doubt of modern Croatian historiography as well. However forget about Monzali if you have a problem with this source, there are other secondary sources quoting the same citation (in German what is logical because we speak of Austrian history in the end). [1] -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 06:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
I have recovered the original German of the Franz Joseph quote, as cited in a number of Austrian publications, for example Volk Land und Staat: Landesbewusstsein, Staatsidee und nationale Fragen in der Geschichte Österreichs, page 95, unfortunately available from Google Books in snippet form only.
-- Bejnar ( talk) 07:19, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
The solution of an internal link named “historic names” is not consistent with WP:NCGN. In accordance with it “all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead” In WP:NCGN there’s no mention of “historic names” section, because, as in this case, it can create ambiguity between archaic names and names presently used in other languages. The correct solution is “Etymology and other names” Let's see an example of proper use of such a paragraph about Vilnius “The name of the city originated from the Vilnia River.[2] The city has also been known by many derivate spellings in various languages throughout its history. The most notable non-Lithuanian names for the city include: Polish: Wilno, Belarusian: Вiльнюс, Вiльня, German: Wilna, Latvian: Viļņa, Russian: Вильнюс, Yiddish: ווילנע (Vilne). An older Russian name was Вильна / Вильно (Vilna/Vilno),[3][4] although Вильнюс (Vilnius) is now used. The names Wilno, Wilna and Vilna have also been used in older English, German, French and Italian language publications. The name Vilna is still used in Finnish, Portuguese, Spanish, and Hebrew.” This is a correct use because there’s no ambiguity between archaic and present alternative names. 79.25.203.163 ( talk) 16:47, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 18:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The contributions made by user 78.3.44.217 have some basis. WP:NCGN suggests that in case of more than three different names “all alternative names can be moved to and explainied in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead”. On the contrary for Zadar we have a “Name” section and an internal link “historic names”. Both are not consistent with WP:NCGN. A “Name” section is not consistent with a plurality of alternative names . A “Historic names" section (or link) can create ambiguity between archaic names and names presently used in other languages. In case of toponyms with a plurality of exonyms, endonyms and historic names the correct solution is a “ETYMOLOGY AND OTHER NAMES” section with an internal link “SEE OTHER NAMES” following the lead. That is not only my opinion but it is the solution systematically used in English Wikipedia. If you need help about the correct use use of toponyms do not hesitate to contact me for examples. Fabioantonello ( talk) 14:03, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Why this article is so subjective? There's vanished story about "Crystal night in Zadar" when on the 2nd of May 1991. Croats did horrible ethnic cleansing of 11 000 of Serbs and crashing Serb houses and shops, including cafe "Time out" of basketball player Serb ethnicity Marko Popovic (who today plays for Croat team). http://www.jadovno.com/intervjui-reportaze/articles/zaboravljena-zadarska-kristalna-noc.html 79.175.102.27 ( talk) 16:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I am curious why Grifter72 changed "Under the Austrian Empire Zadar was subject to the same policy" to "After Italian unification, under the Austrian Empire Zadar was subject to the same policy" The policy was enacted some years before the completion of Italian unification, as is shown by the quote that Silvio1973 provided from Emperor Franz Joseph. While the explicit policy may have been inspired by growing Italian nationalism, that should be stated and shown by citation, and not by an implied assumption. Congruity in time is not causation ([[David Hume#Causation|Hume). The Austrian policy is only unusual for having been so explicitly stated. Most conquerors throughout history have employed a similar policy, look, for example, at the French policy in the Languedoc, Brittany and Normandy. -- Bejnar ( talk) 16:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I linked Treccani... if you understeand Italian: "Negli anni Cinquanta e Sessanta, nel dibattito legato alle riforme costituzionali dell'Impero asburgico, i Croati, sostenuti dagli Ungheresi, aprirono una vivace polemica chiedendo l'unione della Dalmazia alla Croazia. Costituita nel 1861 la Dieta di Zara, si sarebbero confrontati al suo interno due partiti, l'autonomista e l'annessionista, l'uno sostenitore di una provincia autonoma all'interno della cornice asburgica, l'altro favorevole alla sua unione con la Croazia e la Slavonia in un'unica entità politico-amministrativa. Lo scontro era destinato a concludersi in un primo tempo con la vittoria dei Dalmati italiani, i quali avevano in quel momento il sostegno di Vienna ed erano favoriti dai provvedimenti insiti nella patente del febbraio 1861. Da parte dell'elemento croato era forte la volontà - sia in Dalmazia, sia in Croazia e Slavonia - di intervenire nella realtà politica ottenendo una trasformazione federale della monarchia." -- Grifter72 ( talk) 21:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, this is not directly indicated but Italian unification happened between 1861 and 1870 (Rome). Before Vienna was for the Dalmatian autonomists (this is reported by Treccani); on November 1866 Franz Joseph did is declaration against Italian elements in Dalmatia, Tyrol and Istria.-- Grifter72 ( talk) 21:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes Director, this is one of the causes but remember that Franz Joseph also cited South Tyrol. -- Grifter72 ( talk) 22:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I do not completely agree. I replaced "Italian unification" with "1866" that gives to everyone a possibility of an interpretation.-- Grifter72 ( talk) 07:28, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Come on Grifter72. This still create a link of causation.
However, I have put During the second part of the 19th century to reach consensus.
Also, I do not like the cn because it looks the entire sentence require a source. Do we need sources for things so evident? If the answer is yes I will provide one. And I do not understand why the reference to Franz Joseph has been removed from the text. This is EXTREMELY relevant. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 16:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Can I have an explanation about this thing of This compound sentence lacks a parallel structure? Thank you. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 10:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
The sentence in question is: Until the beginning of the century it had been of moderate intensity and mainly of a class nature (under Venetian rule the Italians were employed in the most profitable activities, such as trade and administration), but with the development of the modern concept of national identity across Europe, national conflicts start to mark the political life of Zadar. The subject of the first part is it namely conflict between Italian and Croatian communities, the subject of the second part is national conflicts. I suspect that national conflicts is a euphemism for something else, since it does not mean "conflicts between nations". The sentence would have a parallel structure if the second half dealt with what the non-class nature of the altered conflict was, and dealt with the new "level of intensity" if there was one. If not, then intensity doesn't belong in the sentence. Parallel would be: The conflict was of X intensity and based on unequal opportunities in the workplace, but after Y events, the conflict was of Z intensity and based on differing political goals. Maybe shorter sentences would help. However it is rewritten, I hope that someone will have an appropriate citation to substantiate the data. -- Bejnar ( talk) 10:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 04:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
The sentence has been rewritten. I have also removed from the text the reference to the Panslavism. I cannot justify with a valid source other than the book from Monzali but this book is already quoted twice in this article and cannot be resonably used in support of a third statement. -- Silvio1973 ( talk) 12:21, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you all want Il Regio Dalmata - Kraglski Dalmatin to be discussed under "19th Century" or under "Culture"? Right now almost the exact same text is duplicated in the article. -- Bejnar ( talk) 11:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Grifter72 ( talk) 14:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 04:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Silvio1973 ( talk) 05:05, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Jolicnikola just changed the mayor of Zadar from Zvonimir Vrančić to Božidar Kalmeta. Kalmeta won the recent election, in the first round he garnered 48.43% to Ivo Bilic's 31.98%, and in the second round it was 57% to Bilic's 40.38%. ( Božidar Kalmeta - Pročitaj najnovije članke vezane uz ...) But until Kalmeta takes office, I think that it is premature to change the name. If Kalmeta has already taken office, does someone have a citation to a reliable source for that fact? -- Bejnar ( talk) 19:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Damjanić Vrgadski family whose correct and complete surname name is Damiani di Vergada Gliubavaz Frangipani Detrico has never lost the Comital Title in 1860 (tha's an untruth declartion): the Comital Title is still existing as still existing are males members of this family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.19.202.200 ( talk) 08:05, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia naming conventions: "other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages" or "alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead". There's no mention for a "Etymology and historical names" such as used in the page. It is recommended to avoid creating sections with different titles. This may lead to confusion, and this is the case. The section is ambiguously misleading about historical names and relevant foreign language names suggesting that some names have only a historical value. There is also no mention of the German and Hungarian names. Relevant foreign language names are to be mentioned as such at the beginning of the section and not to be mixed with archaic names. If in doubt please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28geographic_names%29 62.211.130.244 ( talk) 08:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
On 2 August 2014 IP editor 93.143.11.208 changed the climate figures. Are the new figures any more accurate? If there are updated figures at Weatherbase then the citation should be updated from the current 2011 data. -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
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There is a request for comments that is likely of interest to this article at Talk:Rajka_Baković#Request for comments. --- Otr500 ( talk) 16:26, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
The lead section has too many paragraphs. Of the eight, six are about the city's history – they could easily be combined into just two or three. MOS:LEAD says there should be four at most; exceptions can happen, but I don't think more than five paragraphs in total is necessary in this case, especially since they're so short.
As for the tourism part: I think a new section should be created, possibly a subsection of #Economy. Also, there probably shouldn't be an external link to the "Best destinations" portal. Wikipedia:External links says that "[external links] should not normally be placed in the body of an article".
Unrelated to the above: the very short #Science section could be merged into #Education. ~barakokula31 (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
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During the period of the Venetian Empire and Austro-Hungarian rule the cartographers named this city ZARA. Surely this should be reflected in the article? 2A00:23C4:B63A:1800:D6E:762F:5EF0:54C0 ( talk) 16:00, 8 May 2019 (UTC)