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Yusuf Al Kownayn, was of native background according to valid sources. If alternative theories are present, please use the talk page.
As it states in the multiple sources I will list below. Yusuf al Kownayn was a Somali man and the originator of the Walashama Dynasty.
1.Nehemia Levtzion; Randall Pouwels (Mar 31, 2000). The History of Islam in Africa. Ohio University Press. p. 242. "Aw Barkhadle, is the founder and ancestor of the Walashma dynasty"
2.Somalia; Wasaaradda Warfaafinta iyo Hanuuninta Dadweynaha (1972). The Writing of the Somali Language: A Great Landmark in Our Revolutionary History. Ministry of Information and National Guidance. p. 10. "Aw Barkhadle, he was a native, who lived in about 1,000 years ago and is buried now in a ruined town named after him, Aw Barkhadle, which is a few miles away from Hargeisa."
3. Lewis, I. M (1998). Saints and Somalis: Popular Islam in a Clan-based Society. The Red Sea Press. p. 89. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aqooni ( talk • contribs) 01:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Aqooni If you go to page 61 and read the last paragraph [7], it clearly states that "Aber Khudle" (Aw Barkhadle) the venerated saint comes from the Gerhajis branch of the Isaakh (Isaaq). GeelJire ( talk) 07:48, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
There is no truth claim, its not being represented as a fact, but merely another tradition. And i'm well aware of the inconsistencies in regards to Sheikh Isaaq. But isn't that a common feature of Somali history?. Some sources say Yusuf Al kowneyn was Arab and some say he was a native African. The Garhajis lineage is no different, just one among many stories. Note that Cruttenden was writing this in the 1850's, so its not a recent view but is probably more than 2 centuries old. I think it deserves a mention as much as the Walashama connection. GeelJire ( talk) 05:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
There's no Wikipedia policy that says information can't be from one source. The threshold for inclusion on wikipedia is verifiability and the source i provided is indeed verifiable.
WP:vnt Verifiability: In Wikipedia's sense, material is verifiable if it can be directly supported by at least one reliable published source. Verifiability is not determined by whether the material has already been supplied with an inline citation.
Cruttenden interviewed the Somali locals, this is not his theory as it was his first travel in the Somali country. Everything he mentions in his writings pertaining to Somali clans was relayed to him by local Somalis.
Also, i think i have given due weight WP:RSUW, as it is only mentioned once in the beginning of the article unlike the Walashama, which i think is fair.
Somali clans and historical Somali individuals all have varying genealogical traditions. On the Dir clan article it is mentioned that Dirs are the oldest Somali clan that retained their Cushitic culture, and at the same time mentions the Samaale Arabian genealogy, which is highly contradictory. If two contrasting traditions can be mentioned in the same article, like the Dir. I don't know why it can't be in regards to Aw barkhadle. And i have to remind you again, it is another tradition and clearly states that in the article, tradition does not equal fact, i think you're conflating the two terms.
The tradition that says aw barkhadle was Garhajis is well known among people from Somaliland, i myself have been aware of this fact growing up. And if you're familiar with geography and clan settlements, you'll notice that the tomb of aw barkhadle is in Garhajis territory on the outskirts of Hargeisa. The fact that Oral history today coincides with Cruttendens writing almost 2 centuries ago is a testament to the fact that is a long standing genealogical tradition. In my opinion it deserves mention. GeelJire ( talk) 02:12, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Aqoni, u deleted the Arab cites for native when Somali is not in the area until recently, the berbers were there before Somalis. It should say beber or removed. Magherbin ( talk) 03:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
My argument is, native of Somalia does not indicate, his Somaliness, the writings here are merely discussing the geographical residence which in today terms would be Somalia. Many studies have shown Somalis were not in the area until the 15th & 16th century. The 7 Berber tribes are mentioned by Ibn Batuta clearly and Somali is not mentioned anywhere. It is the local tradition that mentions Yusuf as Arab not colonialists. He was Yusuf Al-Kawneyn not Al-Sumalin. Magherbin ( talk) 03:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Thats hilarious when you said its all my opinion, I think everyone knows you deleted my sources, instead of ignoring my statements why not comment on them. 1. Somalis are new to northern Somalia 2. Berber does not equal Somali, therefore if native is left alone its fine but Somali can not be included because there's no proof, no historical document said this. Why do I need to show you proof that berber tribes in north africa resided anywhere? Berber in Somalia does not equal Somali. Read Ibn Batuta and find Somali in it- [8]. Magherbin ( talk) 04:37, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
I have read it in the library that Somali are new to this area, if its very important I would go get the book now but it is not the central point of the edit nor is this page the Somalia history dispute. I was thinking that you ignored it because you agree with my conclusion/statement but now you are responding with its false. I dont disagree with Barber might be Somali but we are rolling dice blindly. The page barbara you directed me to says that berbers are ancestor to Somali, this we already know since Somali are cushitic and the berber were also cushite. Now tell me how berbers are ancestor to Somalis equals berbers are Somalis? Stephanie also is careful to direct to east african and not Somali because even she knows Somali are new to the area. I have never said he is Morrocan, I just want removal of Somali. Please remove it. Magherbin ( talk) 05:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
I am not citing about Somali migration, this page is about the berber saint Yusuf, it has nothing to do with Somali movement throughout African continent. Now lets us comee to compromise, you leave the page blank with no ethnicity listed and we can introduce the fact that Somali people view this berber as a saint. If it matters, the Somali people are in Arab league, they considered themselves arabs until the turn of the century. Magherbin ( talk) 05:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
References
In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf Al Barbari as East African or Persian. But as a fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version.
Translated from French to English: Now this holy man - this is the new point (Al Kownayn) - seems to be the same as that which the people of the Maldive Islands, near India, called Barakath Al-Barbari who spread Islam in this region as he did in the Horn of Africa. We only know in which of these two regions he lived first and this prompted him to change sectors of business.The tomb of Sheik Barkhadle (Yusuf Al Kownayn) is in a ruined city called Dhogor, near Hargeisa, in the north of the Democratic Republic of Somalia.
In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf Al Barbari as East African or Persian. But as a fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There's a dispute on the background of Yusuf, should it be Arab, Somali, or Neither? Magherbin ( talk) 09:34, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
References
Translated from French to English: Now this holy man - this is the new point (Al Kownayn) - seems to be the same as that which the people of the Maldive Islands, near India, called Barakath Al-Barbari who spread Islam in this region as he did in the Horn of Africa. We only know in which of these two regions he lived first and this prompted him to change sectors of business.The tomb of Sheik Barkhadle (Yusuf Al Kownayn) is in a ruined city called Dhogor, near Hargeisa, in the north of the Democratic Republic of Somalia.
Somalis in the medieval times were referred as Bilad Al-Berber or black Berbers by the Arabs due to the same phenotype they had with Berbers of north Africans but darker skin complexion.
Here are the sources
Also, Yusuf Al-Kowneyn was born in Zeila and his lineage has been confirmed. I've provided the souces. He's no doubt a Somali. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s ( talk • contribs) 20:36, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
How did he immigrate from Araba when he was born in
Zeila? If he’s not Somali then explain why he found the
Wadaad script which is a the traditional Somali adaptation of written Arabic? Doesn’t sound like an Arab to me.
Sheikh Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn (colloquially referred to as Aw Barkhadle or the "Blessed Father" [1]), [2] a man described as "the most outstanding saint in northern Somalia." [3]
Of Somali descent, he sought to advance the teaching of the Qur'an. [2] Al-Kawneyn devised a Somali nomenclature for the Arabic vowels, which enabled his pupils to read and write in Arabic. [4]
According to Sheikh Abi-Bakr Al Alawi, a Harari historian, states in his book that Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn was of native and local Dir (clan) extraction. [5]
By the way, Dir is a native Somali clan that dominate Zeila — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Arab interest in Maldives also was reflected in the residence there in the 1340s of Ibn Battutah. The well-known North African traveler wrote how a Moroccan, one Abu Barakat the Berber, was believed to have been responsible for spreading Islam in the islands, reportedly convincing the local king after having subdued Ranna Maari, a demon coming from the sea. [6] Even though this report has been contested in later sources, it does explain some crucial aspects of Maldivian culture. For instance, historically Arabic has been the prime language of administration there, instead of the Persian and Urdu languages used in the nearby Muslim states. Another link to North Africa was the Maliki school of jurisprudence, used throughout most of North Africa, which was the official one in the Maldives until the 17th century. [7]
However, most scholars have suggested the possibility of Ibn Battuta misreading Maldive texts, and have posited another scenario where Ibn Battuta recorded both traditions from the local Maldives suggesting Abu Barakat natve from Morroco and Yusuf Al-Kawneyn native from Somalia in Zeila. [8] This scenario would also help explain the usage of the Arabic language and the predominance of the Maliki school on the islands.
Not only these sources are accepted by most scholars but you're conflating with two Sheikhs and traditions. Morrocans had their own Sheikh called Abu Baraka who apparently converted the Maldives into Islam and Somalis have their own Sheikh called Yusuf Al-Kawneyn. If you want to make a page about Abu Baraka, go ahead but your vandalism on this page will not be tolerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s ( talk • contribs) 16:44, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
References
Magherbin I added a source that explains Arabian origin stories pertaining to Somali saints. This is not my own personal analysis it is what the text itself says. [16] And it gives much needed context behind it, so does the analysis of Aw Barkhadle site being pre-islamic burial site linked to syncronetic religious traditions explained by Sade Mire. Divine Fertility: The Continuity in Transformation of an Ideology of Sacred These are all sourced, there is no reason for you to take it out. And even Sade Mire talks about it in here book but you neglect to add that Somali myth of origin , it's misleading to add the part where she mentions the oral story even tho she says its a myth later on Somali origins
Three different academic sources state that he is a native Somali and they do so by evaluating the historical evidence left behind.
It's a balanced POV , which includeds the point of view of oral story, the POV of scholars on mythic arabian origins to saintly ancestors (Which includes Yusuf) , the point of view of Sade Mire who presented evidence on the Aw-Barkhadle site, and the point of view of most scholars today that believe he is native. Ragnimo ( talk) 23:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
The analysis in the Invention of Somalia itself regards Somali saints/ancestors in general. That analysis however is refrenced by Sade Mire herself in the book, she connects it to Saint Awbarkhadle in the title Somali origin Myth and Saint Aw-Barkhadle and says Aw-Barkhadle is key in terms of this myth. And she literally goes on to explain the same mythical story around it. The man on the Tree which Aw-Barkhadle is included in.
If you agree that Somalis do not originate from Arabia, whats stops you from Agreeing that Aw-Barkhadle doesn't? It sounds to me that you're being intellectually dishonest. You at first tried to suggest he was berber but since no scholars backs that . you are now trying exploit origin myth stories to push the idea that he is Arab, when there is zero authencity behind it. As the source shows.
Aw means ancestor but has come to mean saint. It a Somali word short for Awoowe(Grandfather). It's a pre-islamic remnant of ancestor worship. Even Wadaad which has become to be known as an islamic sheikh was a pre-islamic idol according to Sade Mire she says so on page 101 . How do you refrence a book you don't even read? but nitpick at?
The saints themselves coming from Arabia is the myth , they were local saints and then later venerated as such. She talks about in the book how indigenous clan founders and ancestors ease into becoming Islamic saints and it ties to Waaq religious cultural synchronism. And so does this source also explain it Tribal founders transfigurated into Islamic saints and sheikhs Ragnimo ( talk) 00:54, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
It goes without saying he is included Diwan-Al-awliya, (Saints of Somali Origin) which includes Saints like Sheikh Hussein (saint) Awbube and Al-Zaylaʽi. But there is no way a foreigner who just arrived from Arabia could have the Somali language profiency enough to create a Arab script for it and teach it. This among many reasons , including what i sourced above is why he is considered a native.
Furthermore i have explained to him berber refers to Somalis and not Moroccans. But i suspect he actually knows and is deliberately being dishonest or clueless about it but to qoute another source Cambridge History of Africa page 135.
and this:
The traditional view that the Galla preceded the Somali in the Horn is no longer valid. It is rather the Somali who are referred to in the accounts of early Arab geographers. In fact, there was a basic continuity in the use of the term Berber since the first century of the Christian era to describe the land and the people of the Horn. The Periplus, Claudius Ptolemy, and Cosmas Indicopleustes employed it in much the same way as the Arab geographers did after the ninth century. There seems to be no doubt that the Arab geographers had particularly the Somali in mind when they spoke of the 'Black Berbers' of the Horn; and the earlier use of the term by Greek writers may very well indicate a more ancient occupancy of the Horn by the same stock of people.
The contacts between the Near and the Middle East on the one hand, and the African side of the Gulf of Aden on the other, were very old and regular; and the earliest advent of Islam in these regions must have certainly occurred within the first century of the Muslim era. The inhabitants of the Horn at that time seem to have been the ancestors of the present-day Somali. Their most important coastal settlements were Zeila and Berbera on the Gulf of Aden, and Mogadishu, Merca and Brava on the Benadir coast. - Page 135
He also tries to suggest above on the talk page that Somalis consider themselves Arabs: If it matters, the Somali people are in Arab league, they considered themselves arabs until the turn of the century - Magherbrin
Which is not true and multiple sources can be cited that refutes it- They never considered themselves Arabs but considered temselves Somali and culturally/ethnically distinct.
20th century scholar J. Spencer Trimingham noted -
Somalis are extremely proud of being Somali and though they may delight in the fiction that they are descendants of the prophet or his companions and have constructed elaborate genealogies, they do not consider themselves arabs. Somalis attach little political significance to the their supposed arab descent and go out of their way to distinguish themselves cultureally from Arabs.
Somalis don't consider themselves Arabs so much that they invented a Somali scripts to avoid adopting the Arabic one in the early 20th century:
It had been recorded that Cisman while writing letters to his family in Somali with the unsuitable Arabic script, said to himself: You are Somali, you speak Somali, why don't you have Somali letters? He then developed his own script which bore little resemblance either to Arabic or to Latin, and began to teach it
Source: Politics, Language, and Thought: The Somali Experience by David D Laitin
Also being in Arab League had nothing to do with them considering themselves Arab, it was a move by the PM made in 1972 to find economic and political support for the Ogaden War because they had relgious and economic ties to the Arab world. It wasn't a cultural move.
Also there can be no doubt that Yusuf is who is mentioned as the convertor of Maldives and Sri Lanka. Many sources substantiate that he was East African which was well known at the time, the name follows with Yusuf, with Barbari referring to his Ethnic Somali origins. Likewise Somalis having presence in those Islands and adjacent region is noted by Ibn Battuta as well with the Mogadishu governor Abd_al-Aziz_of_Mogadishu . No suprise.
Hopefully this clarifies things Ragnimo ( talk) 08:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Let me break it down for you systematically. So you can understand and we can put this discussion aside: The prior discussion was made by people that didn't have sufficient knowledge around the subject at hand. There is no dispute on his ethnicty. So i will list everything in orderly manner as i can and carefully explain it.
Aw Barkhadle's arrival from Arabia oral tradition and it being regarded as myth:
In the same source you refrenced in the article Sade Mire not only affirmed it being regarded as myth but in the same sentence she writes about the oral origin tradition of him arriving from Arabia she puts 'allegedly' at the end in qoutation: [25] It is difficult to date exactly when Sharif Yusuf Aw-Barkhadle first arrived, allegedly from Arabia
What does 'allegedly' mean? Something that is claimed to be the case but has no proof to it: [26]
You know why it's also difficult to date? because it's a myth.
So how does this follow? There is an oral tradition that claims he comes from Arabia and that is regarded/discredited as a myth by several different scholars and authors: [27] [28] [29]
What you are trying to make it out to be is that author x claimed he was arab or put some affirmative claim of him arriving from Arabia which she never did. Infact no source you have listed has. In most cases they are just paraphrasing/relaying a local tradition and say nothing about him being an Arab as a fact or the story of his arrival being true.
Sade Mire covers him arriving from Arabia an being related to the Prophet a myth: [30] The Somali Myth of Origin and Saint Aw Barkhadle- The Islamic Somali Myth of Origin, which links the Somali with the Prophet Mohamed's clan, the Quraysh (Lewis, 1994, 1998; Mansur 1995; Mukhtar, 1995) is central to understanding the significance of key practices such as fertility rituals and ancestor veneration. One crucial aspect of Sufi Islam is the genealogical link between followers and religious ancestors(Lewis, 1994, 1998; Triningham, 1952; Huntingford 1955). Lewis argues that the belief in this link faciliated Sufi Islam's success in converting traditional Somalis whose former religion(the Cushitic institution discussed in Chapter five) focuses heavily on ancestor worship(Lewis,1998)..
''A belief exists that the Prophet would have known about the coming of Saint Aw-Barkhadle a few centuries before the actual event. Saint Aw-Barkhadle is confrimed as having 'exalted origins' through being related to the prophet (see Apendix..
So do several other sources and as well as she refrences Mansur
[31] , which i added to the article and same
same among scholars like I'M lewis
[32] who is qouted to say they are local and indigenous saints venerated to include relations to the Prophet from Arabia for religious reasons linked to both pagan religion and Islam. In Pre-Islamic times they would link Kings/Rulers/Saints/Ancestors to Waaq but instead now the link them to the Prophet because they are muslim and both of their analysis refers to Somali saintly ancestors in general(This includes Yusuf) but Sade Mire nonetheless regard Aw Barkhadle as key to this myth: It is essential to understand fully the Somali Myth of Origin. The site of Aw-Barkhadle is a key site in terms of this myth
Furthermore just as an additional fact Sade Mire also says Aw Barkhadle being the ancestor to Walashma is based on Somali genealogy; [33] If we, however, look at Somali genealogy, Aw-Barkhadle is linked to the Islamic Walashma Dynasty.. and that genealogy is kept by a Somali group known as muriid if you read on. I am not going to qoute everything because it is lengthy and detailed.
Al-Barbari of Maldives:
I reiterate this has nothing to say for Aw Barkhadle's ethnicity, who is regarded as a native East African/Somali and historians connected Al-Barbari to Yusuf Aw Barkhadle based on the interpretation that Barbari meant East African/Somali - Because Barbari/Berber was an exonym/ethnonym for Somalis see: Barbaria_(East_Africa) and as i already explained to you above [34]. Therefore the Ibn Batutas misreading of the text is related to his intepretation of what Berber/Barbari meant. Because it could have either have been refering to an East African/Somali sheikh/saint or to a Maghreb Berber one. Because both groups were refered to by the name Berber/Barbar in medieval times. But if it so happens to refer to a Maghreb Berber then they are two seperate people. One being Somali/East African (Aw Barkhadle) of Somalia and the other being an unrelated Maghreb Berber of Maldives (Abu Barakat al Barbari ). And vice versa.
The so called disputed Ethnic interpretation here isn't on Aw Barkhadle's ethnicity in particular but on that one interpretation of what that Maldives Al-Barbari's ethnicity is and what his background is. Do you understand now?
If you want add that there is another interpretation to Al-Barbari of Maldives you can do so on the section on Maldives, feel free but you also have to include the add the detail given by Stephanie as well: " ", that Ibn Batuta was biased in his narration of refelcting Abu al-Barakat Yusuf al-Barbari in the Maldives as a fellow Moroccan, because of his Moroccan heritage, and that the theory of him being East African was well known at the time ' - 'Sufis, Sea Monsters, and Miraculous Circumcisions:Comparative Conversion Narratives and Popular Memories of Islamization
What you put down has to assume a neutral POV and in line with the sources. The different theories about the Maldives Sheikh's ethnicity is cited in the Islam_in_the_Maldives#Introduction_of_Islam
Sources on Aw-Barkhadle being regarded as a native and a Somali as listed:
Aw Barkhadle being regarded as a native: [35] [36] The idea of finding a script first occured to a certain Sheikh Yusuf al Kawneny , better known as Aw Barkhadle Barkhadle, he was a native, who lived in about 1,000 years ago and is buried now in a ruined town named after him, Aw Barkhadle, which is a few miles away from Hargeisa.
We can attribute its success ( The Walashma dynasty), longevity and influence, to the fact that the founders of the dynasty of Walasma were native of the area - Riraash, Mohamed Abdullahi. Effects of 16th Century Upheavals on the Horn. Djibouti: Service D'Information Djibouti. p. 251. [37]
Aw Barkadle being regarded as a Somali [38]: For a Yibir who was killed in a contest with a Somali sheikh (a religious leader) named Aw Barkhadle.. -Macrocultures, Migration, and Somali Malls: A Social History of Somali Dress and Aesthetics by Heather Marie Akou
[39] In the 1300s, the ancient Somali Sheikh Yusuf al-Kowneyn (Barkadle) adapted Arabic script to the Somali way of reading for learning the Quran..
and Lastly: [40] The potential list of local saints as Lewis rightly points out is, is endless. However some of the most notable would include Shaykhs Yusuf aw Barkhadle, Husayn Bale, Uways b Muhammad and Abd al-Rahman Zayla who today remain among the most important members of the Somali 'Diwan al-awliya'(Saints of Somali origin)
And guess what the ones listed next to him are all local and are confirmed to be somali. Adding that he is Somali and a native is supported by sources. End of discussion.
Regards Ragnimo ( talk) 14:14, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
If we are adhering to WP:YESPOV then all the relevant view points are to be added to the article. Also there is no synth all the qoutes outright state it and i took the liberty to qoute some of them for you.
This is how it should go: Local oral tradition claims that Yusuf arrived from Arabia. However Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints such as Yusuf are regarded as a myth by scholars and an islamification of a prior pagan origin story related to Waaq. That now ties the Somali to the prophets clan (Quraysh). Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestor in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam . Thus Yusuf has been affirmed to have 'exalted origins through being related to the prophet.
Some scholars regard him to be a native and a Somali....
Here there is 4 different view points added. The view point that there is a local oral tradition that claims he arrived from Arabica(1). The view point that this is regarded by scholars as an origin myth tied to religious sycronism.(2) The view point that he is regarded as a native (3) and the view point that regard him as a Somali (4). Him being regarded as a Somali is pretty much stated in these two sources [43] [44] and that justifies adding that as his ethnicity.
I never said he was the sole founder of Walashma or anything like that. What i said was that Sade Mire wrote that him being linked to the Walashma is based on Somali geneology but thats a different topic all together. What matters is the source states that both him and walashma are considered native to the area.
The theories around Moroccan and Persian is not about Yusuf Al Kowneyn but about Abu Bakarat Al Barbari of Maldives. There is no refrences to Yusuf Al Kowneyn being Morrocan or anything like that. It should go on the Maldives section like i explained. I would propose a sentence under that goes like
However the the theory of Abu Bakarat Al-barbari of Maldives being Yusuf Al-Kowneyn is disputed by some scholars who interpret him instead to be Morrocan or Persian (See: Islam_in_the_Maldives#Introduction_of_Islam)
It's short and brief and redirects people instead of swamping the article. Because the full discussion about what the ethnicity Abu Bakarat Al Barbari of Maldives is, doesn't belong on this article. Ragnimo ( talk) 23:18, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
If the origin story isn't going to be in the ethinicity section so shouldn't local oral tradition that says he arrived from Arabia shouldn't either. It was clearly talking about Saint Aw Barkhadle and i even qouted her on it make it more clear for you. And you said there should be WP:YESPOV. Then all relevant view points should be added like i listed above your response. I believe the section name should be changed back into Biography.
He was the ancestor and Grandfather of Umar Winwili who is the founder of Ifat and Walashma dynasty. That makes him part of the Walashma family as the source i added says [45] and him and walashma are considered native. The Aw Barkhadle site in Somaliland is a burial ground for the Walashma rulers. You can change it inline , i never made any such statement that he was the founder. And for the record i am not Aqooni or MostafaO the false sockpuppet allegation u launched actually showed we r unrelated , so please don't tag me with what that person says.
Stephanie is refering to Abu al-Bakarat Yusuf Al-Barbari. Stephanie said to qoute her exact words on page 5 ''In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf al-Barbari as East African or Persian. But as fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version
This is getting bit tiring. The discussion on ethnicity is not on Yusuf Al Kowneyn which scholars describe as a local/native East African/Somali saint but about an Island Sheikh in Maldives. Do you understand or do i have explain it again? Ragnimo ( talk) 07:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Does the following belong in the ethnicity section?
However these Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints are refuted by scholars as mythical and are seen as an Islamification of a prior pagan divine kingship story related to Waaq. Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestors in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam. [2] [3] This goes hand in hand with the evidence presented on the site of Aw-Barkhadle as a place tied to syncretic religious rituals and a sacred place with many non-Islamic features. [4]
Magherbin ( talk) 04:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
References
In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf Al Barbari as East African. But as fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version.
Local oral tradition claims that Yusuf allegedly arrived from Arabia. [46] However Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints such as Yusuf are regarded as a myth by scholars and an islamification of a prior pagan origin story that relates back to Waaq and ancestor worship. That now ties the Somali to the prophets clan (Quraysh). Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestors in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam. [47] [48] [49] Thus Yusuf has been affirmed to have 'exalted origins' through being related to the prophet. [50]
Yusuf is described by some scholars as a native [51] [52] [53] and as a Somali [54] [55] ....
This assumes a WP:YESPOV and all the relevant view points are added. The Point view of oral tradition that claims he allegedly arrived from Arabia(1) The point of view of scholars that regard this as an ancestral origin myth linked to religious synchronism(2) The point of view of scholars that describe him as a native (3) and the point of view of scholars who describe him as a Somali.(4)
Sources that supports each statement is included. I added sources for each statement for people to look through and verify. None of it is my opinions.
I believe it's more fitting to change the section name back into it's original name Biography because it covers a much wider topic than ethnicity or origins but his life, travels, achievements etc.
Ragnimo ( talk) 08:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I don't know what you both are arguing about. My proposal above is solid. They are line with the refrences and covers every point of view with neutrality. I will copy that into the page.
@Magherbin not a single source says he is Arab. Sources do not state he comes from Arabia they are paraphrasing an oral tradition while giving no affirmation to the claim itself which is considered a myth. Simple as that. I added two sources in my keep response that state he is Somali and so is him regarded as a native sourced. Ragnimo ( talk) 11:57, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
he is Asharaaf Hassani 197.235.244.137 ( talk) 03:51, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
@ trisolar Read the RFC on the talk page [62], Magherbin ( talk) 02:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Binglebarry refrain from edit warring. Aw Barkhadle was not born in Somaliland as Somaliland was not a state based in the 10th century. We do not claim Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim Al Ghazi to have been born in Ethiopia but rather Adal Replayerr ( talk) 19:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
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Yusuf Al Kownayn, was of native background according to valid sources. If alternative theories are present, please use the talk page.
As it states in the multiple sources I will list below. Yusuf al Kownayn was a Somali man and the originator of the Walashama Dynasty.
1.Nehemia Levtzion; Randall Pouwels (Mar 31, 2000). The History of Islam in Africa. Ohio University Press. p. 242. "Aw Barkhadle, is the founder and ancestor of the Walashma dynasty"
2.Somalia; Wasaaradda Warfaafinta iyo Hanuuninta Dadweynaha (1972). The Writing of the Somali Language: A Great Landmark in Our Revolutionary History. Ministry of Information and National Guidance. p. 10. "Aw Barkhadle, he was a native, who lived in about 1,000 years ago and is buried now in a ruined town named after him, Aw Barkhadle, which is a few miles away from Hargeisa."
3. Lewis, I. M (1998). Saints and Somalis: Popular Islam in a Clan-based Society. The Red Sea Press. p. 89. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aqooni ( talk • contribs) 01:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Aqooni If you go to page 61 and read the last paragraph [7], it clearly states that "Aber Khudle" (Aw Barkhadle) the venerated saint comes from the Gerhajis branch of the Isaakh (Isaaq). GeelJire ( talk) 07:48, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
There is no truth claim, its not being represented as a fact, but merely another tradition. And i'm well aware of the inconsistencies in regards to Sheikh Isaaq. But isn't that a common feature of Somali history?. Some sources say Yusuf Al kowneyn was Arab and some say he was a native African. The Garhajis lineage is no different, just one among many stories. Note that Cruttenden was writing this in the 1850's, so its not a recent view but is probably more than 2 centuries old. I think it deserves a mention as much as the Walashama connection. GeelJire ( talk) 05:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
There's no Wikipedia policy that says information can't be from one source. The threshold for inclusion on wikipedia is verifiability and the source i provided is indeed verifiable.
WP:vnt Verifiability: In Wikipedia's sense, material is verifiable if it can be directly supported by at least one reliable published source. Verifiability is not determined by whether the material has already been supplied with an inline citation.
Cruttenden interviewed the Somali locals, this is not his theory as it was his first travel in the Somali country. Everything he mentions in his writings pertaining to Somali clans was relayed to him by local Somalis.
Also, i think i have given due weight WP:RSUW, as it is only mentioned once in the beginning of the article unlike the Walashama, which i think is fair.
Somali clans and historical Somali individuals all have varying genealogical traditions. On the Dir clan article it is mentioned that Dirs are the oldest Somali clan that retained their Cushitic culture, and at the same time mentions the Samaale Arabian genealogy, which is highly contradictory. If two contrasting traditions can be mentioned in the same article, like the Dir. I don't know why it can't be in regards to Aw barkhadle. And i have to remind you again, it is another tradition and clearly states that in the article, tradition does not equal fact, i think you're conflating the two terms.
The tradition that says aw barkhadle was Garhajis is well known among people from Somaliland, i myself have been aware of this fact growing up. And if you're familiar with geography and clan settlements, you'll notice that the tomb of aw barkhadle is in Garhajis territory on the outskirts of Hargeisa. The fact that Oral history today coincides with Cruttendens writing almost 2 centuries ago is a testament to the fact that is a long standing genealogical tradition. In my opinion it deserves mention. GeelJire ( talk) 02:12, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Aqoni, u deleted the Arab cites for native when Somali is not in the area until recently, the berbers were there before Somalis. It should say beber or removed. Magherbin ( talk) 03:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
My argument is, native of Somalia does not indicate, his Somaliness, the writings here are merely discussing the geographical residence which in today terms would be Somalia. Many studies have shown Somalis were not in the area until the 15th & 16th century. The 7 Berber tribes are mentioned by Ibn Batuta clearly and Somali is not mentioned anywhere. It is the local tradition that mentions Yusuf as Arab not colonialists. He was Yusuf Al-Kawneyn not Al-Sumalin. Magherbin ( talk) 03:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Thats hilarious when you said its all my opinion, I think everyone knows you deleted my sources, instead of ignoring my statements why not comment on them. 1. Somalis are new to northern Somalia 2. Berber does not equal Somali, therefore if native is left alone its fine but Somali can not be included because there's no proof, no historical document said this. Why do I need to show you proof that berber tribes in north africa resided anywhere? Berber in Somalia does not equal Somali. Read Ibn Batuta and find Somali in it- [8]. Magherbin ( talk) 04:37, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
I have read it in the library that Somali are new to this area, if its very important I would go get the book now but it is not the central point of the edit nor is this page the Somalia history dispute. I was thinking that you ignored it because you agree with my conclusion/statement but now you are responding with its false. I dont disagree with Barber might be Somali but we are rolling dice blindly. The page barbara you directed me to says that berbers are ancestor to Somali, this we already know since Somali are cushitic and the berber were also cushite. Now tell me how berbers are ancestor to Somalis equals berbers are Somalis? Stephanie also is careful to direct to east african and not Somali because even she knows Somali are new to the area. I have never said he is Morrocan, I just want removal of Somali. Please remove it. Magherbin ( talk) 05:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
I am not citing about Somali migration, this page is about the berber saint Yusuf, it has nothing to do with Somali movement throughout African continent. Now lets us comee to compromise, you leave the page blank with no ethnicity listed and we can introduce the fact that Somali people view this berber as a saint. If it matters, the Somali people are in Arab league, they considered themselves arabs until the turn of the century. Magherbin ( talk) 05:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
References
In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf Al Barbari as East African or Persian. But as a fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version.
Translated from French to English: Now this holy man - this is the new point (Al Kownayn) - seems to be the same as that which the people of the Maldive Islands, near India, called Barakath Al-Barbari who spread Islam in this region as he did in the Horn of Africa. We only know in which of these two regions he lived first and this prompted him to change sectors of business.The tomb of Sheik Barkhadle (Yusuf Al Kownayn) is in a ruined city called Dhogor, near Hargeisa, in the north of the Democratic Republic of Somalia.
In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf Al Barbari as East African or Persian. But as a fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There's a dispute on the background of Yusuf, should it be Arab, Somali, or Neither? Magherbin ( talk) 09:34, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
References
Translated from French to English: Now this holy man - this is the new point (Al Kownayn) - seems to be the same as that which the people of the Maldive Islands, near India, called Barakath Al-Barbari who spread Islam in this region as he did in the Horn of Africa. We only know in which of these two regions he lived first and this prompted him to change sectors of business.The tomb of Sheik Barkhadle (Yusuf Al Kownayn) is in a ruined city called Dhogor, near Hargeisa, in the north of the Democratic Republic of Somalia.
Somalis in the medieval times were referred as Bilad Al-Berber or black Berbers by the Arabs due to the same phenotype they had with Berbers of north Africans but darker skin complexion.
Here are the sources
Also, Yusuf Al-Kowneyn was born in Zeila and his lineage has been confirmed. I've provided the souces. He's no doubt a Somali. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s ( talk • contribs) 20:36, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
How did he immigrate from Araba when he was born in
Zeila? If he’s not Somali then explain why he found the
Wadaad script which is a the traditional Somali adaptation of written Arabic? Doesn’t sound like an Arab to me.
Sheikh Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn (colloquially referred to as Aw Barkhadle or the "Blessed Father" [1]), [2] a man described as "the most outstanding saint in northern Somalia." [3]
Of Somali descent, he sought to advance the teaching of the Qur'an. [2] Al-Kawneyn devised a Somali nomenclature for the Arabic vowels, which enabled his pupils to read and write in Arabic. [4]
According to Sheikh Abi-Bakr Al Alawi, a Harari historian, states in his book that Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn was of native and local Dir (clan) extraction. [5]
By the way, Dir is a native Somali clan that dominate Zeila — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Arab interest in Maldives also was reflected in the residence there in the 1340s of Ibn Battutah. The well-known North African traveler wrote how a Moroccan, one Abu Barakat the Berber, was believed to have been responsible for spreading Islam in the islands, reportedly convincing the local king after having subdued Ranna Maari, a demon coming from the sea. [6] Even though this report has been contested in later sources, it does explain some crucial aspects of Maldivian culture. For instance, historically Arabic has been the prime language of administration there, instead of the Persian and Urdu languages used in the nearby Muslim states. Another link to North Africa was the Maliki school of jurisprudence, used throughout most of North Africa, which was the official one in the Maldives until the 17th century. [7]
However, most scholars have suggested the possibility of Ibn Battuta misreading Maldive texts, and have posited another scenario where Ibn Battuta recorded both traditions from the local Maldives suggesting Abu Barakat natve from Morroco and Yusuf Al-Kawneyn native from Somalia in Zeila. [8] This scenario would also help explain the usage of the Arabic language and the predominance of the Maliki school on the islands.
Not only these sources are accepted by most scholars but you're conflating with two Sheikhs and traditions. Morrocans had their own Sheikh called Abu Baraka who apparently converted the Maldives into Islam and Somalis have their own Sheikh called Yusuf Al-Kawneyn. If you want to make a page about Abu Baraka, go ahead but your vandalism on this page will not be tolerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s ( talk • contribs) 16:44, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
References
Magherbin I added a source that explains Arabian origin stories pertaining to Somali saints. This is not my own personal analysis it is what the text itself says. [16] And it gives much needed context behind it, so does the analysis of Aw Barkhadle site being pre-islamic burial site linked to syncronetic religious traditions explained by Sade Mire. Divine Fertility: The Continuity in Transformation of an Ideology of Sacred These are all sourced, there is no reason for you to take it out. And even Sade Mire talks about it in here book but you neglect to add that Somali myth of origin , it's misleading to add the part where she mentions the oral story even tho she says its a myth later on Somali origins
Three different academic sources state that he is a native Somali and they do so by evaluating the historical evidence left behind.
It's a balanced POV , which includeds the point of view of oral story, the POV of scholars on mythic arabian origins to saintly ancestors (Which includes Yusuf) , the point of view of Sade Mire who presented evidence on the Aw-Barkhadle site, and the point of view of most scholars today that believe he is native. Ragnimo ( talk) 23:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
The analysis in the Invention of Somalia itself regards Somali saints/ancestors in general. That analysis however is refrenced by Sade Mire herself in the book, she connects it to Saint Awbarkhadle in the title Somali origin Myth and Saint Aw-Barkhadle and says Aw-Barkhadle is key in terms of this myth. And she literally goes on to explain the same mythical story around it. The man on the Tree which Aw-Barkhadle is included in.
If you agree that Somalis do not originate from Arabia, whats stops you from Agreeing that Aw-Barkhadle doesn't? It sounds to me that you're being intellectually dishonest. You at first tried to suggest he was berber but since no scholars backs that . you are now trying exploit origin myth stories to push the idea that he is Arab, when there is zero authencity behind it. As the source shows.
Aw means ancestor but has come to mean saint. It a Somali word short for Awoowe(Grandfather). It's a pre-islamic remnant of ancestor worship. Even Wadaad which has become to be known as an islamic sheikh was a pre-islamic idol according to Sade Mire she says so on page 101 . How do you refrence a book you don't even read? but nitpick at?
The saints themselves coming from Arabia is the myth , they were local saints and then later venerated as such. She talks about in the book how indigenous clan founders and ancestors ease into becoming Islamic saints and it ties to Waaq religious cultural synchronism. And so does this source also explain it Tribal founders transfigurated into Islamic saints and sheikhs Ragnimo ( talk) 00:54, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
It goes without saying he is included Diwan-Al-awliya, (Saints of Somali Origin) which includes Saints like Sheikh Hussein (saint) Awbube and Al-Zaylaʽi. But there is no way a foreigner who just arrived from Arabia could have the Somali language profiency enough to create a Arab script for it and teach it. This among many reasons , including what i sourced above is why he is considered a native.
Furthermore i have explained to him berber refers to Somalis and not Moroccans. But i suspect he actually knows and is deliberately being dishonest or clueless about it but to qoute another source Cambridge History of Africa page 135.
and this:
The traditional view that the Galla preceded the Somali in the Horn is no longer valid. It is rather the Somali who are referred to in the accounts of early Arab geographers. In fact, there was a basic continuity in the use of the term Berber since the first century of the Christian era to describe the land and the people of the Horn. The Periplus, Claudius Ptolemy, and Cosmas Indicopleustes employed it in much the same way as the Arab geographers did after the ninth century. There seems to be no doubt that the Arab geographers had particularly the Somali in mind when they spoke of the 'Black Berbers' of the Horn; and the earlier use of the term by Greek writers may very well indicate a more ancient occupancy of the Horn by the same stock of people.
The contacts between the Near and the Middle East on the one hand, and the African side of the Gulf of Aden on the other, were very old and regular; and the earliest advent of Islam in these regions must have certainly occurred within the first century of the Muslim era. The inhabitants of the Horn at that time seem to have been the ancestors of the present-day Somali. Their most important coastal settlements were Zeila and Berbera on the Gulf of Aden, and Mogadishu, Merca and Brava on the Benadir coast. - Page 135
He also tries to suggest above on the talk page that Somalis consider themselves Arabs: If it matters, the Somali people are in Arab league, they considered themselves arabs until the turn of the century - Magherbrin
Which is not true and multiple sources can be cited that refutes it- They never considered themselves Arabs but considered temselves Somali and culturally/ethnically distinct.
20th century scholar J. Spencer Trimingham noted -
Somalis are extremely proud of being Somali and though they may delight in the fiction that they are descendants of the prophet or his companions and have constructed elaborate genealogies, they do not consider themselves arabs. Somalis attach little political significance to the their supposed arab descent and go out of their way to distinguish themselves cultureally from Arabs.
Somalis don't consider themselves Arabs so much that they invented a Somali scripts to avoid adopting the Arabic one in the early 20th century:
It had been recorded that Cisman while writing letters to his family in Somali with the unsuitable Arabic script, said to himself: You are Somali, you speak Somali, why don't you have Somali letters? He then developed his own script which bore little resemblance either to Arabic or to Latin, and began to teach it
Source: Politics, Language, and Thought: The Somali Experience by David D Laitin
Also being in Arab League had nothing to do with them considering themselves Arab, it was a move by the PM made in 1972 to find economic and political support for the Ogaden War because they had relgious and economic ties to the Arab world. It wasn't a cultural move.
Also there can be no doubt that Yusuf is who is mentioned as the convertor of Maldives and Sri Lanka. Many sources substantiate that he was East African which was well known at the time, the name follows with Yusuf, with Barbari referring to his Ethnic Somali origins. Likewise Somalis having presence in those Islands and adjacent region is noted by Ibn Battuta as well with the Mogadishu governor Abd_al-Aziz_of_Mogadishu . No suprise.
Hopefully this clarifies things Ragnimo ( talk) 08:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Let me break it down for you systematically. So you can understand and we can put this discussion aside: The prior discussion was made by people that didn't have sufficient knowledge around the subject at hand. There is no dispute on his ethnicty. So i will list everything in orderly manner as i can and carefully explain it.
Aw Barkhadle's arrival from Arabia oral tradition and it being regarded as myth:
In the same source you refrenced in the article Sade Mire not only affirmed it being regarded as myth but in the same sentence she writes about the oral origin tradition of him arriving from Arabia she puts 'allegedly' at the end in qoutation: [25] It is difficult to date exactly when Sharif Yusuf Aw-Barkhadle first arrived, allegedly from Arabia
What does 'allegedly' mean? Something that is claimed to be the case but has no proof to it: [26]
You know why it's also difficult to date? because it's a myth.
So how does this follow? There is an oral tradition that claims he comes from Arabia and that is regarded/discredited as a myth by several different scholars and authors: [27] [28] [29]
What you are trying to make it out to be is that author x claimed he was arab or put some affirmative claim of him arriving from Arabia which she never did. Infact no source you have listed has. In most cases they are just paraphrasing/relaying a local tradition and say nothing about him being an Arab as a fact or the story of his arrival being true.
Sade Mire covers him arriving from Arabia an being related to the Prophet a myth: [30] The Somali Myth of Origin and Saint Aw Barkhadle- The Islamic Somali Myth of Origin, which links the Somali with the Prophet Mohamed's clan, the Quraysh (Lewis, 1994, 1998; Mansur 1995; Mukhtar, 1995) is central to understanding the significance of key practices such as fertility rituals and ancestor veneration. One crucial aspect of Sufi Islam is the genealogical link between followers and religious ancestors(Lewis, 1994, 1998; Triningham, 1952; Huntingford 1955). Lewis argues that the belief in this link faciliated Sufi Islam's success in converting traditional Somalis whose former religion(the Cushitic institution discussed in Chapter five) focuses heavily on ancestor worship(Lewis,1998)..
''A belief exists that the Prophet would have known about the coming of Saint Aw-Barkhadle a few centuries before the actual event. Saint Aw-Barkhadle is confrimed as having 'exalted origins' through being related to the prophet (see Apendix..
So do several other sources and as well as she refrences Mansur
[31] , which i added to the article and same
same among scholars like I'M lewis
[32] who is qouted to say they are local and indigenous saints venerated to include relations to the Prophet from Arabia for religious reasons linked to both pagan religion and Islam. In Pre-Islamic times they would link Kings/Rulers/Saints/Ancestors to Waaq but instead now the link them to the Prophet because they are muslim and both of their analysis refers to Somali saintly ancestors in general(This includes Yusuf) but Sade Mire nonetheless regard Aw Barkhadle as key to this myth: It is essential to understand fully the Somali Myth of Origin. The site of Aw-Barkhadle is a key site in terms of this myth
Furthermore just as an additional fact Sade Mire also says Aw Barkhadle being the ancestor to Walashma is based on Somali genealogy; [33] If we, however, look at Somali genealogy, Aw-Barkhadle is linked to the Islamic Walashma Dynasty.. and that genealogy is kept by a Somali group known as muriid if you read on. I am not going to qoute everything because it is lengthy and detailed.
Al-Barbari of Maldives:
I reiterate this has nothing to say for Aw Barkhadle's ethnicity, who is regarded as a native East African/Somali and historians connected Al-Barbari to Yusuf Aw Barkhadle based on the interpretation that Barbari meant East African/Somali - Because Barbari/Berber was an exonym/ethnonym for Somalis see: Barbaria_(East_Africa) and as i already explained to you above [34]. Therefore the Ibn Batutas misreading of the text is related to his intepretation of what Berber/Barbari meant. Because it could have either have been refering to an East African/Somali sheikh/saint or to a Maghreb Berber one. Because both groups were refered to by the name Berber/Barbar in medieval times. But if it so happens to refer to a Maghreb Berber then they are two seperate people. One being Somali/East African (Aw Barkhadle) of Somalia and the other being an unrelated Maghreb Berber of Maldives (Abu Barakat al Barbari ). And vice versa.
The so called disputed Ethnic interpretation here isn't on Aw Barkhadle's ethnicity in particular but on that one interpretation of what that Maldives Al-Barbari's ethnicity is and what his background is. Do you understand now?
If you want add that there is another interpretation to Al-Barbari of Maldives you can do so on the section on Maldives, feel free but you also have to include the add the detail given by Stephanie as well: " ", that Ibn Batuta was biased in his narration of refelcting Abu al-Barakat Yusuf al-Barbari in the Maldives as a fellow Moroccan, because of his Moroccan heritage, and that the theory of him being East African was well known at the time ' - 'Sufis, Sea Monsters, and Miraculous Circumcisions:Comparative Conversion Narratives and Popular Memories of Islamization
What you put down has to assume a neutral POV and in line with the sources. The different theories about the Maldives Sheikh's ethnicity is cited in the Islam_in_the_Maldives#Introduction_of_Islam
Sources on Aw-Barkhadle being regarded as a native and a Somali as listed:
Aw Barkhadle being regarded as a native: [35] [36] The idea of finding a script first occured to a certain Sheikh Yusuf al Kawneny , better known as Aw Barkhadle Barkhadle, he was a native, who lived in about 1,000 years ago and is buried now in a ruined town named after him, Aw Barkhadle, which is a few miles away from Hargeisa.
We can attribute its success ( The Walashma dynasty), longevity and influence, to the fact that the founders of the dynasty of Walasma were native of the area - Riraash, Mohamed Abdullahi. Effects of 16th Century Upheavals on the Horn. Djibouti: Service D'Information Djibouti. p. 251. [37]
Aw Barkadle being regarded as a Somali [38]: For a Yibir who was killed in a contest with a Somali sheikh (a religious leader) named Aw Barkhadle.. -Macrocultures, Migration, and Somali Malls: A Social History of Somali Dress and Aesthetics by Heather Marie Akou
[39] In the 1300s, the ancient Somali Sheikh Yusuf al-Kowneyn (Barkadle) adapted Arabic script to the Somali way of reading for learning the Quran..
and Lastly: [40] The potential list of local saints as Lewis rightly points out is, is endless. However some of the most notable would include Shaykhs Yusuf aw Barkhadle, Husayn Bale, Uways b Muhammad and Abd al-Rahman Zayla who today remain among the most important members of the Somali 'Diwan al-awliya'(Saints of Somali origin)
And guess what the ones listed next to him are all local and are confirmed to be somali. Adding that he is Somali and a native is supported by sources. End of discussion.
Regards Ragnimo ( talk) 14:14, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
If we are adhering to WP:YESPOV then all the relevant view points are to be added to the article. Also there is no synth all the qoutes outright state it and i took the liberty to qoute some of them for you.
This is how it should go: Local oral tradition claims that Yusuf arrived from Arabia. However Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints such as Yusuf are regarded as a myth by scholars and an islamification of a prior pagan origin story related to Waaq. That now ties the Somali to the prophets clan (Quraysh). Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestor in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam . Thus Yusuf has been affirmed to have 'exalted origins through being related to the prophet.
Some scholars regard him to be a native and a Somali....
Here there is 4 different view points added. The view point that there is a local oral tradition that claims he arrived from Arabica(1). The view point that this is regarded by scholars as an origin myth tied to religious sycronism.(2) The view point that he is regarded as a native (3) and the view point that regard him as a Somali (4). Him being regarded as a Somali is pretty much stated in these two sources [43] [44] and that justifies adding that as his ethnicity.
I never said he was the sole founder of Walashma or anything like that. What i said was that Sade Mire wrote that him being linked to the Walashma is based on Somali geneology but thats a different topic all together. What matters is the source states that both him and walashma are considered native to the area.
The theories around Moroccan and Persian is not about Yusuf Al Kowneyn but about Abu Bakarat Al Barbari of Maldives. There is no refrences to Yusuf Al Kowneyn being Morrocan or anything like that. It should go on the Maldives section like i explained. I would propose a sentence under that goes like
However the the theory of Abu Bakarat Al-barbari of Maldives being Yusuf Al-Kowneyn is disputed by some scholars who interpret him instead to be Morrocan or Persian (See: Islam_in_the_Maldives#Introduction_of_Islam)
It's short and brief and redirects people instead of swamping the article. Because the full discussion about what the ethnicity Abu Bakarat Al Barbari of Maldives is, doesn't belong on this article. Ragnimo ( talk) 23:18, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
If the origin story isn't going to be in the ethinicity section so shouldn't local oral tradition that says he arrived from Arabia shouldn't either. It was clearly talking about Saint Aw Barkhadle and i even qouted her on it make it more clear for you. And you said there should be WP:YESPOV. Then all relevant view points should be added like i listed above your response. I believe the section name should be changed back into Biography.
He was the ancestor and Grandfather of Umar Winwili who is the founder of Ifat and Walashma dynasty. That makes him part of the Walashma family as the source i added says [45] and him and walashma are considered native. The Aw Barkhadle site in Somaliland is a burial ground for the Walashma rulers. You can change it inline , i never made any such statement that he was the founder. And for the record i am not Aqooni or MostafaO the false sockpuppet allegation u launched actually showed we r unrelated , so please don't tag me with what that person says.
Stephanie is refering to Abu al-Bakarat Yusuf Al-Barbari. Stephanie said to qoute her exact words on page 5 ''In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf al-Barbari as East African or Persian. But as fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version
This is getting bit tiring. The discussion on ethnicity is not on Yusuf Al Kowneyn which scholars describe as a local/native East African/Somali saint but about an Island Sheikh in Maldives. Do you understand or do i have explain it again? Ragnimo ( talk) 07:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Does the following belong in the ethnicity section?
However these Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints are refuted by scholars as mythical and are seen as an Islamification of a prior pagan divine kingship story related to Waaq. Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestors in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam. [2] [3] This goes hand in hand with the evidence presented on the site of Aw-Barkhadle as a place tied to syncretic religious rituals and a sacred place with many non-Islamic features. [4]
Magherbin ( talk) 04:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
References
In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf Al Barbari as East African. But as fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version.
Local oral tradition claims that Yusuf allegedly arrived from Arabia. [46] However Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints such as Yusuf are regarded as a myth by scholars and an islamification of a prior pagan origin story that relates back to Waaq and ancestor worship. That now ties the Somali to the prophets clan (Quraysh). Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestors in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam. [47] [48] [49] Thus Yusuf has been affirmed to have 'exalted origins' through being related to the prophet. [50]
Yusuf is described by some scholars as a native [51] [52] [53] and as a Somali [54] [55] ....
This assumes a WP:YESPOV and all the relevant view points are added. The Point view of oral tradition that claims he allegedly arrived from Arabia(1) The point of view of scholars that regard this as an ancestral origin myth linked to religious synchronism(2) The point of view of scholars that describe him as a native (3) and the point of view of scholars who describe him as a Somali.(4)
Sources that supports each statement is included. I added sources for each statement for people to look through and verify. None of it is my opinions.
I believe it's more fitting to change the section name back into it's original name Biography because it covers a much wider topic than ethnicity or origins but his life, travels, achievements etc.
Ragnimo ( talk) 08:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I don't know what you both are arguing about. My proposal above is solid. They are line with the refrences and covers every point of view with neutrality. I will copy that into the page.
@Magherbin not a single source says he is Arab. Sources do not state he comes from Arabia they are paraphrasing an oral tradition while giving no affirmation to the claim itself which is considered a myth. Simple as that. I added two sources in my keep response that state he is Somali and so is him regarded as a native sourced. Ragnimo ( talk) 11:57, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
he is Asharaaf Hassani 197.235.244.137 ( talk) 03:51, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
@ trisolar Read the RFC on the talk page [62], Magherbin ( talk) 02:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Binglebarry refrain from edit warring. Aw Barkhadle was not born in Somaliland as Somaliland was not a state based in the 10th century. We do not claim Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim Al Ghazi to have been born in Ethiopia but rather Adal Replayerr ( talk) 19:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)