As I have just signed up to copy edit this for GoCE, I may as well get a two-fer and GAN assess it at the same time.
"File:Yusuf I Nasrid gold coin.jpg" this has an appropriate justification for the image, but it also needs to be established that the 3D coin itself is PD. (Obviously it is, but you need to add the tag.)
"File:Estrecho 1329-1350.png" What is the source of the information in this map?
I'll try to track them down (it's an existing image on Commons), otherwise I'll probably remove it or replace it with a plain map with just names of cities.
HaEr48 (
talk)
13:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Intentional, there is no non-disambig page, but the first sentence of that page gives an additional context. Should I remove it? 13:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
"Despite his personal dislike for Peter, he upheld the treaty" Normally one does not include regnal numbers after first mention of a monarch, as you don't here. Except where there is risk of ambiguity, could you be consistent. (On occasion you are inconsistent within a sentence - "In total Ismail I had four sons and two daughters, but Yusuf was the only child of his mother, Bahar, an umm walad (concubine) of Ismail.")
"for the rebellious brothers of Sultan Abu Inan Faris, who deposed his father Abu al-Hasan in 1348." Who did the deposing - the brothers or Faris. And do we need to mention this at all in the lead?
Removed the deposing. It was a way of introducing that this is a new sultan (as opposed to Abu al-Hasan mentioned earlier), but now used regnal years instead. 13:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
"until he too was assassinated in 25 August 1333, when he was en route back to Granada after the victory at the
siege of Gibraltar." I understood that he was murdered the night after the signing of the truce, having made some arrangements to return, but definitely not en route. Is this wrong? Thinking of FAC, I think that you could use a little more detail here: eg that murdered by two of his own nobles who were angry that he had treated with a Christian.
From the source I get the impression that he was already on the way, e.g. "Muhammad was killed with repeated lance strokes when returning to Granada from Gibraltar" (from Fernández-Puertas) or "se adelantaron en su camino alcanzándolo al bajar hacia la playa a la altura de la desembocadura del río Guadiaro" (Vidal Castro: Muhammad IV). Added the motive of the assassination to #Background.
HaEr48 (
talk)
13:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)reply
In Early life, I think that the quote may be too long, per
MOS:QUOTE: "While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text ...".
You tend to use "treaty" and "truce" interchangeably. Technically they are different things, so it may be helpful to be more precise/consistent in their usage.
@
Gog the Mild: I understand that today they are different, but looking at the sources talking about this era I get the impression that they can be interchangeable. If a treaty has provision to stop fighting, that provision is called a "truce", so if we're only talking about the peace aspect of the treaty, it somehow becomes interchangeable with a truce. For example, O'Callaghan 2011
pp.206-207, talking about the same treaty/truce: "Alfonso XI decided to accept the surrender, but he limited the term of the truce to ten years ... The kings of Castile and Granada concluded a peace treaty on Thursday, 25 March 1344 ... Ordering Murcia to observe the truce, the king expanded the list of cosas vedadas, or goods whose export was prohibited, ..." (I added italics for emphasis). What do you think?
HaEr48 (
talk)
14:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)reply
This will probably come across as a bit big headed, but I have 16 military FACs from the 14th century, in several of which truces or treaties were important; eg
Siege of Berwick (1333) or
Battle of Calais. I have an informed (which is not necessarily the same as "correct") view of how modern sources use the two terms. They did and do mean different things. I am happy to let this distinction go at GAN, but you will be challenged over it at FAC. To take an extreme example, you refer to one agreement as both a treaty and a truce in the space of 18 words: "his representatives secured a four-year peace treaty with Granada's neighbours Castile, the Marinid Sultanate, which was joined by Aragon in May. With the truce and after gaining more power". Happy to discuss further here, on the article's talk page or at FAC.
Replaced most instance of "truce" to treaty when it is related to a treaty. Thanks for the explanation. Now, I get that they are different, but still I don't think they're always incompatible. For example, I think it would be valid to say "A and B signed a treaty, which included an X year truce". Then, after X year, we can say "the treaty expired" just as well as "the truce expired" with approximately the same meaning. In any case, I made the change like you suggested.
HaEr48 (
talk)
02:25, 10 July 2020 (UTC)reply
"in January 1336 ... renewed the treaty for five years"; "On the spring of 1339, after the expiration of the truce". But January 1336 plus five years equals January 1341.
The January 1336 truce was only between Aragon and Granada, clarified now. The truce with Castile and the Marinids was on 1334, with a four-year duration, so it already expired by 1338.
HaEr48 (
talk)
13:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)reply
"offered the surrender of Gibraltar ... Alphonso ... agreed ... In June or July 1349, his forces began the siege of Gibraltar"?!
@
Gog the Mild: While doing some digging, I found new info that can be added to the #Construction and #Administration sections, probably two or three paragraphs' worth. Is it okay if I add it now, or should I wait for you to finish your review to avoid confusion and edit conflicts?
HaEr48 (
talk)
03:13, 10 July 2020 (UTC)reply
"was dismissed after a few months". Is it known how many months?
The source only said "a few months". I checked other sources too, didn't mention anything about the length of his appointment.
HaEr48 (
talk)
01:41, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
"fled to North Africa to avoid the intrigues of his rival" You need to state who this was.
That's it for my first run through. I will mark this as done at GoCE, go through your responses above, see where we are re GAN, wait for you to add the new content (could you ping me when this is finished), then start my second run through.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
10:45, 10 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Gog the Mild, thank you very much for your thorough and very valuable feedback, as well as for the copyediting. I responded to/addressed all of your comments above. I also added new text as I previously indicated, and it is finished now. I tried to use the word "expand" in the edit history, but might have forgotten in some revisions; probably the easiest way to tell is that they include increases of more than 1,000 characters noted in the revision history. I apologise if this gives you inconvenience. Looking forward to your comments.
HaEr48 (
talk)
02:20, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
No problem. Good looking additions. I am now starting my second run, checking your responses as I go.
"In February 1334, his representatives secured a four-year peace treaty ... with the treaty in place ... in 1338 or 1340" either of the later dates are more than 4 years after Feb 1334, so wouldn't the treaty have expired?
You're right. For some reason, the source linked it to the stability resulting from the peace, but given the timeline I updated to no longer link these events.
HaEr48 (
talk)
17:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Could we be told who "Ambrosio Huici Miranda" is? A modern historian.
"He captured Alcalá de Benzaide next paragraph During the siege of Alcalá de Benzaide much later the capitulation took place on 20 August 1341." Maybe mention events just once, and in chronological order.
The source only mentioned it passingly, based on Yusuf's private remarks. I removed it from the lead to avoid undue weight, but it is still mentioned in the article body.
HaEr48 (
talk)
17:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
OK. I am promoting this. More than up to GA standard. I am also declaring it "done" so far as the copy edit is concerned. I am sure that there is further work which could be identified, but I have read it so many times that it is starting to blur. In my opinion it is ready to go to FAC; nice work.
As an aside, IMO, it is a little on the detailed side. The focused v broad balance is always subjective, but personally I find this towards the unfocussed side of acceptable. Not an actionable comment, and you may well feel that my FAs are summary to the point of not being comprehensive; it is just an observation in passing. Good luck at FAC.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
20:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Gog the Mild, Thank you very much for your review and copyedit, and for being thorough and patient with me. I believe the review has resulted in much improvements. Your FA candidates are always tempting to review, no promises but I will consider it.
HaEr48 (
talk)
20:36, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
As I have just signed up to copy edit this for GoCE, I may as well get a two-fer and GAN assess it at the same time.
"File:Yusuf I Nasrid gold coin.jpg" this has an appropriate justification for the image, but it also needs to be established that the 3D coin itself is PD. (Obviously it is, but you need to add the tag.)
"File:Estrecho 1329-1350.png" What is the source of the information in this map?
I'll try to track them down (it's an existing image on Commons), otherwise I'll probably remove it or replace it with a plain map with just names of cities.
HaEr48 (
talk)
13:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Intentional, there is no non-disambig page, but the first sentence of that page gives an additional context. Should I remove it? 13:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
"Despite his personal dislike for Peter, he upheld the treaty" Normally one does not include regnal numbers after first mention of a monarch, as you don't here. Except where there is risk of ambiguity, could you be consistent. (On occasion you are inconsistent within a sentence - "In total Ismail I had four sons and two daughters, but Yusuf was the only child of his mother, Bahar, an umm walad (concubine) of Ismail.")
"for the rebellious brothers of Sultan Abu Inan Faris, who deposed his father Abu al-Hasan in 1348." Who did the deposing - the brothers or Faris. And do we need to mention this at all in the lead?
Removed the deposing. It was a way of introducing that this is a new sultan (as opposed to Abu al-Hasan mentioned earlier), but now used regnal years instead. 13:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
"until he too was assassinated in 25 August 1333, when he was en route back to Granada after the victory at the
siege of Gibraltar." I understood that he was murdered the night after the signing of the truce, having made some arrangements to return, but definitely not en route. Is this wrong? Thinking of FAC, I think that you could use a little more detail here: eg that murdered by two of his own nobles who were angry that he had treated with a Christian.
From the source I get the impression that he was already on the way, e.g. "Muhammad was killed with repeated lance strokes when returning to Granada from Gibraltar" (from Fernández-Puertas) or "se adelantaron en su camino alcanzándolo al bajar hacia la playa a la altura de la desembocadura del río Guadiaro" (Vidal Castro: Muhammad IV). Added the motive of the assassination to #Background.
HaEr48 (
talk)
13:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)reply
In Early life, I think that the quote may be too long, per
MOS:QUOTE: "While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text ...".
You tend to use "treaty" and "truce" interchangeably. Technically they are different things, so it may be helpful to be more precise/consistent in their usage.
@
Gog the Mild: I understand that today they are different, but looking at the sources talking about this era I get the impression that they can be interchangeable. If a treaty has provision to stop fighting, that provision is called a "truce", so if we're only talking about the peace aspect of the treaty, it somehow becomes interchangeable with a truce. For example, O'Callaghan 2011
pp.206-207, talking about the same treaty/truce: "Alfonso XI decided to accept the surrender, but he limited the term of the truce to ten years ... The kings of Castile and Granada concluded a peace treaty on Thursday, 25 March 1344 ... Ordering Murcia to observe the truce, the king expanded the list of cosas vedadas, or goods whose export was prohibited, ..." (I added italics for emphasis). What do you think?
HaEr48 (
talk)
14:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)reply
This will probably come across as a bit big headed, but I have 16 military FACs from the 14th century, in several of which truces or treaties were important; eg
Siege of Berwick (1333) or
Battle of Calais. I have an informed (which is not necessarily the same as "correct") view of how modern sources use the two terms. They did and do mean different things. I am happy to let this distinction go at GAN, but you will be challenged over it at FAC. To take an extreme example, you refer to one agreement as both a treaty and a truce in the space of 18 words: "his representatives secured a four-year peace treaty with Granada's neighbours Castile, the Marinid Sultanate, which was joined by Aragon in May. With the truce and after gaining more power". Happy to discuss further here, on the article's talk page or at FAC.
Replaced most instance of "truce" to treaty when it is related to a treaty. Thanks for the explanation. Now, I get that they are different, but still I don't think they're always incompatible. For example, I think it would be valid to say "A and B signed a treaty, which included an X year truce". Then, after X year, we can say "the treaty expired" just as well as "the truce expired" with approximately the same meaning. In any case, I made the change like you suggested.
HaEr48 (
talk)
02:25, 10 July 2020 (UTC)reply
"in January 1336 ... renewed the treaty for five years"; "On the spring of 1339, after the expiration of the truce". But January 1336 plus five years equals January 1341.
The January 1336 truce was only between Aragon and Granada, clarified now. The truce with Castile and the Marinids was on 1334, with a four-year duration, so it already expired by 1338.
HaEr48 (
talk)
13:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)reply
"offered the surrender of Gibraltar ... Alphonso ... agreed ... In June or July 1349, his forces began the siege of Gibraltar"?!
@
Gog the Mild: While doing some digging, I found new info that can be added to the #Construction and #Administration sections, probably two or three paragraphs' worth. Is it okay if I add it now, or should I wait for you to finish your review to avoid confusion and edit conflicts?
HaEr48 (
talk)
03:13, 10 July 2020 (UTC)reply
"was dismissed after a few months". Is it known how many months?
The source only said "a few months". I checked other sources too, didn't mention anything about the length of his appointment.
HaEr48 (
talk)
01:41, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
"fled to North Africa to avoid the intrigues of his rival" You need to state who this was.
That's it for my first run through. I will mark this as done at GoCE, go through your responses above, see where we are re GAN, wait for you to add the new content (could you ping me when this is finished), then start my second run through.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
10:45, 10 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Gog the Mild, thank you very much for your thorough and very valuable feedback, as well as for the copyediting. I responded to/addressed all of your comments above. I also added new text as I previously indicated, and it is finished now. I tried to use the word "expand" in the edit history, but might have forgotten in some revisions; probably the easiest way to tell is that they include increases of more than 1,000 characters noted in the revision history. I apologise if this gives you inconvenience. Looking forward to your comments.
HaEr48 (
talk)
02:20, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
No problem. Good looking additions. I am now starting my second run, checking your responses as I go.
"In February 1334, his representatives secured a four-year peace treaty ... with the treaty in place ... in 1338 or 1340" either of the later dates are more than 4 years after Feb 1334, so wouldn't the treaty have expired?
You're right. For some reason, the source linked it to the stability resulting from the peace, but given the timeline I updated to no longer link these events.
HaEr48 (
talk)
17:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Could we be told who "Ambrosio Huici Miranda" is? A modern historian.
"He captured Alcalá de Benzaide next paragraph During the siege of Alcalá de Benzaide much later the capitulation took place on 20 August 1341." Maybe mention events just once, and in chronological order.
The source only mentioned it passingly, based on Yusuf's private remarks. I removed it from the lead to avoid undue weight, but it is still mentioned in the article body.
HaEr48 (
talk)
17:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
OK. I am promoting this. More than up to GA standard. I am also declaring it "done" so far as the copy edit is concerned. I am sure that there is further work which could be identified, but I have read it so many times that it is starting to blur. In my opinion it is ready to go to FAC; nice work.
As an aside, IMO, it is a little on the detailed side. The focused v broad balance is always subjective, but personally I find this towards the unfocussed side of acceptable. Not an actionable comment, and you may well feel that my FAs are summary to the point of not being comprehensive; it is just an observation in passing. Good luck at FAC.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
20:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Gog the Mild, Thank you very much for your review and copyedit, and for being thorough and patient with me. I believe the review has resulted in much improvements. Your FA candidates are always tempting to review, no promises but I will consider it.
HaEr48 (
talk)
20:36, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply