Yola dialect is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | ||||||||||
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 19 April 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Yola (language) to Yola language. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I am a newby. I don't understad the star symbol and its meaning. I think is a good thing. Herodotus21
There are small errors here which a native of south Wexford can correct.
Drazed means 'scuffed'. The drawing of thread from wool was known as 'drazing'. A wound incurred after a fall is known as a 'draze'.
Keek is actually 'geak' or 'geek' - to take a geak at something, meaning to look at it; or geeking in the window. Obvious cognate of 'gawk' and 'gawking'.
Amain may be a rendering of Ammin' meaning 'ambling along'. Rare.
Fash stems from 'farsh'. Compare with the Yiddish for old and confused person 'farshimmeldt'.
--- No no no. Farshimmeldt = far+shimmeldt 'mouldy', schimmel is mould, as it is in Dutch.
84.53.74.196
23:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The other words mentioned must be extinct.
From Poole's glossary:
Curkite could stem from a old Wexford Norse word for a badly behaved young dog - a 'cur'. Although it is more likely this is simply an variant version of a common expression in Wexford 'crookity' meaning twisted, not straight or square.
Other terms still commonly used:
Houghboy pronounced 'hoe boy' meaning a delinquent.
Rake is very commonly used to imply a large quantity, e.g. a rake of drink, there was a rake a people at the wedding, etc.
Cnat meaning a sly (usually young) person. A devious youth or petty criminal - Cnat is used more in Wexford town suggesting Norse rather Yola heritage. Similarly 'bolsker' (extinct) is almost certainly Norse. The 'Boker' in Wexford town is one of the earlist sites of norse settlement and 'bolsker' is possibly a rendering of someone (a viking settler) from the Boker' but that is pure speculation. A more likely possibility is that 'bolsker' or 'bolskar' is a fogotten placename. For instance, 'Esker' and 'Tuskar' both are place names of coastal areas, the latter for the Tuskar Lighthouse.
User:Jonisrael 15:39, 20 December 2006
As a native of south Wexford, (and a hebrew speaker), I would like to point out that in my experienece of the Carne, Kilmore and Hook areas (which encompass the Baronies of Forth and Bargy) several of the words in Diarmuid O'Murithe's list are completely unknown to me. But let's not trip over my inductive reasoning.
In the case of Jacob Poole, the collector of allegedly Yola phrases, it must be emphasised that he was not a lexicographer - despite his enthusiasm - nor was he a comparative philologist. Consequently, the relative 'ages' of the lexical items he recorded are close to conjecture.
Secondly, no one has ever verified the accuracy of Poole's rendering of Yola. Less than a handful of Yola documents exist and most of these are from the 18th century raising the possibility that the originals (if they ever existed) were massaged into something quasi-intelligible in the English of the time. One plausible explanation for the absence of written materials (one must note that the Templars founded a large abbey in the area - so an awareness of learning was extant) is that after the 'second wave' of Norman invaders came, Dublin became the center of commerce and trade, leaving the settlements of the first wave to flounder. It is likely that the merchants decamped leaving farmers and fishermen behind. The destruction of the Templars further diminished the status of the area and gradually it became a relatively insular community. At the time of the first consolidation of Forth and Bargy, the Jews in Norther France were being persecuted and sought refuge in either the papal statres or areas away from direct French Court influence. A search through patronomyics of many of the surnames in south Wexford using French genealogy resources, shows that many are not French names - or certainly not French Christian surnames. It is plausible that a proportion of the original settlers were French Jews, who wrote in the Hebrew alphabet and spoke Judeo-French (Zarphatic). Once those with writing skills left, only oral traces would have remained. I will return to the linguistic evidence later.
A couple of words listed here as Yola are, from my personal experience, also common in Scots [see Scots Language], specifically in Fife where I lived but I'm sure more widely, namely neape = turnip (spelt neep, as in the popular dish "tatties an' neeps") and fash = confusion (in the sense of mental confusion or worry, as in the frequent exortation "Dinnae fash yesel."). I'm not sure what this implies but someone more expert may be able to make something of it. 87.81.230.195 ( talk) 12:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I’m moving this to the Discussion Page in order to deal more satisfactorily with the issues of sources. I have queried the sources used for some recent changes. I deal with these below. If sources cannot be provided for these additions I suggest they be removed.
On sources in general, I have confined myself to quoting from ó Muirithe and Dolan (1996) because they conducted a scholarly and professional survey of all the source material and included in their book what they thought was worth including. Leaving out much what they considered unreliable - which includes much of Barnes's material.
I have checked Poole’s Glossary as published in ó Muirithe and Dolan (1996). I can find no mention for the following words: weisforth, londe, daie, yersel, vriend
Please provide a source for these words.
The reference to “Poole 1867” means, I presume, the book written by William Barnes in 1867 and entitled Glossary of the Dialect of Forth and Bargy, which reprints Poole’s Glossary. On page 133 (which is a quote from a speech given to the British Association by the Very Reverend C W Russell, DD, President of St Patrick’s College Maynooth) there is a discussion of pronouns and a general comparison with modern English. However, I cannot find any reference to the information, specifically the forms of cases for personal pronouns, as laid out in the table.
This book can be downloaded from Google Books. Geraldkelly ( talk) 09:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Re: Pronouns
If you take the care to read through all of the sources, including the Yola Zong and read the translation, all of the pronouns become obvious. I don't really feel like citing every single pronoun (there are multiple spellings) in every single story but I suggest you look through the book before deleting them again. Αεκος ( talk) 20:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Reply
The reference to page 133 of this book is incorrect. Please re-read what I wrote above under Pronouns (where I went to the trouble of finding the correct reference). To be included in the article information must be from a reputable source. If this is some original research by yourself then please provide us with access to this. Amateur speculation about Yola grammar isn't particularly useful and gives the misleading impression that this subject has been thoroughly researched which to my knowledge it hasn't.
As with the other list of words which I also dealt with previously, you have put these back in the article and you have still not provided sources.
One of the problems with this subject is that there has been very little research and so there are very few sources of information. In fact as regards Yola grammar I would go so far as to say that there are no reliable sources of information. The article should reflect this lack of information rather than including stuff which is just guessed at.
Geraldkelly ( talk) 13:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
"stuff which is just guessed at"
Guessed at? It's all in the primary sources in the glossary. Do we need to cite the page of every single pronoun usage, then also cite the page of the English translation? Go to the Google Books page, type "wough," page 79. Typing "thou," "mee," "thee," etc. will turn up similar results. Yes, there are variant spellings, and if I've missed them you're welcome to look in the glossary and add them. But there are hardly guesses, they're all in the glossary somewhere. Αεκος ( talk) 03:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
This is my last word on this subject because if you don't listen to me this time there isn't any point saying it again. The source you give for all of your contributions to this article is "Poole's Glossary". However, none of it is in "Poole's Glossary". I've already explained this at the very beginning under the heading Pronouns.
For everything you put in this article you must be able to put your finger on the spot and say "this comes from here" or "this claim is justified by this evidence". So far you haven't done that.
As an aside, Barnes, Russell, etc. are not primary sources. As far as I know Barnes never even came to Ireland. But that is irrelevant for now. Geraldkelly ( talk) 10:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm unsure why genetics (as a marker of prehistoric/historic population movements) is considered by other contributors to be on little relevance to language transmission and development in the pre-industrial world. There is strong evidence that, prior to the 19th century transportation revolution, arable farming populations were very static. There is little evidence that any significant numbers of english speaking peasants moved to Ireland during historic times due to the logistic difficulties. Arable farmers can only move during the seasonal window between late Autumn after harvest time to early Spring before planting! It is highly likely that most of the "peasant" farming population in Ireland are descended from the original neolithic farmer seettlers. These tended to move in small bands and the genetic evidence of Brtain and Ireland suggests that they intermarried with females from the hunter-gather bands they encountered. Linguistic studies show that language usage among the base farming population tends to change very slowly - many examples can be cited from Central America, Latin America and South Asia where the language of a conquering Aristocracy (e.g. the Spanish) has had only limited lingusitic impact on the native populations until the rise of the modern state apparatus and mass education in the 20th century. Obviously, the attribution of Yola as the language of the neolithic farming population of eastern Ireland is controversial given that the origin of English as the language of neolithic farmers in England has not been widely accepted yet despite its possible inference from one of the earliest written descriptions of Britain (i.e. Julius Caesar) but is quite plausible and supportable from Gaelic Literature e.g, the Book of Invasions.
Many thanks for your reply. I should have added previously that the article (exclusive of my own limited contribution) is very informative. My own view is that Yola is a very important relict neolithic language which may demonstrate the resilence of language to change in the pre-modern world (just as Gaelic proved very resilient to change in many parts of Ireland until the 20th century CE). The language transmission process you describe is quite valid and actually supports my proposition - its application to the spreading of a common dominant language among different ethnic groups is really only relevant with the introduction of mass education from the 19th century onwards. Aristocratic invaders throughout history until the 19th Century usually took little trouble with trying to change the language of those they conquered - in fact they were usually very anxious to distinguish themselves from the conquered (i.e. the Spanish in Latin America, the British in India). Since you introduced the article by outling the commonly accepted history of Yola, I thought that readers might be interested in recent developments - I'm happy to move this to a separate section if you wish. By the way I am Irish amd find it quite interesting to find a possible historic example of a Gaelic speaking aristocracy dominating a significant English speaking population for 2000 years! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.211.36 ( talk) 19:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
There is considerable evidence in Irish history to the presence of other tribal groups contemporary with the Gaels/Milesians from the earliest written sources. For instance the Irish annals refer to the tribes of "aithechthúatha" whom the Romans may also have being referring to under the title "Attacotti" whom they distinguished from the "Scotti" (usually interpreted as the Gaels). The proposition that Yola is related to middle-English is also quite questionable. The current accepted English Language paradigm itself takes quite a few leaps of logic based on almost negligible evidence (in fact it ignores some of the earliest written evidence!) and is almost completely contra to known historic paterns of population migration and language adoption. Though Harper may be a "crackpot" he does point out many of the deficiences of the current paradigm - he has a least challenged the defenders of the current English (and indeed other Indo-European) language paradigms to produce more evidence to substantiate their assumptions. I feel that it is tantamount to censorship to delete an alternaive historic interpretation of the available evidence and that can point to the work of other historians of relevant fields. Though Harper may be putting forth quite a different interpretation of the available genetic, linguistic and achaeological evidence he is hardly in the Eric VanDanikan / Zacharia Sitchin league of "historians" - no aliens or supertechnology involved! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.228.19 ( talk) 21:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Many thanks for your reply. Unfortunaely I disagree that the historical evidence is so clearcut. I think that the invocation of "censorship" is fair where no room is left open for disenting but reasoned views - after all, all great truths begin as heresies! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.28.216.164 ( talk) 22:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I quote: "it evolved separately among the English (known as the Old English) who followed the Norman barons Strongbow and Robert Fitzstephen to eastern Ireland in 1169." Sorry, the Normans spoke French, and even the English (who have never been known as 'the Old English' didn't speak modern English - Yoda (lol, oh tut tut, I can't spell now) can hardly have evolved from it. The Irish in the east spoke English in the 19th century - that's not exactly surprising. This garbage wasn't written on April 1st was it? The quoted statement, like most of this piece is, to put it kindly Wikipedia b-s. Johnpretty010 ( talk) 00:41, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
This article needs IPA to be used in it to demonstrate pronunciations. The current spellings are clumsy and could be pronounced vastly different depending on the readers own dialect. If I can find the source documents, I will put the proper phonetic spellings in. DonConquistador ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Regarding the IPA, why is the diphthong [ɑi] described as "not in English". This is the most prevalent realisation of the diphthong /aɪ/ in English English and I expect in Irish English as well, so will be perfectly familiar to what I expect would be the majority of the English-speaking readers of this page.
I've removed the term "Anglic" twice now, as it doesn't appear in the cited sources I've been able to check. It's certainly absent from the two books by Hickey I cited in my additions. The term appears to be pretty obscure and may be confusing to readers. Additionally, the Hickey books call this a "dialect" or "variety", but never a "language". Finally, I think the List of dialects of the English language article is a better and more intuitive target than English languages; if anything the two articles should be merged.-- Cúchullain t/ c 14:43, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 16:34, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Yola language → Forth and Bargy dialect – While "Yola" is in use, it appears the proposed form is more common in the sources on the topic. Diarmaid Ó Muirithe's work is titled The Dialect of Forth and Bargy Co. Wexford, Ireland, and the dialect is listed as "Forth and Bargy" in Raymond Hickey's Dublin English and A Source Book for Irish English. It's the same in The Cambridge History of the English Language, [1] Poole's Glossary, [2] and other sources. [3] [4] According to Kwamikagami, the ISO name is "Yola", and this turns up in some sources, but it seems to be less common. Additionally, all of the sources I could check use the term "dialect" rather than "language". Cúchullain t/ c 17:33, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
hi lads. amain is actually a norman word derived from the old norse 'almanna' which means 'of easy use', so im guessing that goin on amain means getting along easily or without any hassle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilowex ( talk • contribs) 17:39, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
There is much use of the term "Southern Ireland" no doubt by an English write who wishes to distinguish that part of Ireland from the British possession of Northern Ireland. However, to anyone else in the world who is not British the term "Southern Ireland" would probably mean the extreme south of the island of Ireland rather than the Republic of Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.20.219 ( talk) 06:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
"The last speaker of Yola died in 1998." --should this be 1898 perhaps ? Leasnam ( talk) 17:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I saw an old woman who was claimed to be the last speaker of Yola on television (The Late Late Show) in the 1970s, so 1998 could be correct. Gnomon42 11:34, 4 July 2017
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Forth and Bargy dialect. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:25, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Why on Earth is this page in the Category:Spurious languages? Is there any serious doubt that this dialect existed? Steinbach ( talk) 20:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) NW1223< Howl at me• My hunts> 19:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Yola (language) → Yola language – Current title is inconsistent with other titles for languages. ~Red of Arctic Circle System ( talk) 18:24, 18 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. signed, 511KeV (talk) 16:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
things Must have been confusing For every one when they got to drinking . 209.171.85.210 ( talk) 17:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
Is there much warrant to include a revival date or L2 speakers? The source provided seems to be original to whoever added the edit, and the justification for the number given within is based on either unreliable or unverifiable information.
In particular, the discord server which provides the 140 speaker count experiences only sporadic activity and there has not been conversation in Yola since 2022. For those of you who wish to see the server for yourselves, the link can be found on the 'Gabble ing Yola' website ( https://sites.google.com/view/gabble-ing-yola/language/english?authuser=0).
To wrap up, this really seems more like a group of people interested in the language from an academic perspective rather than a serious attempt at revival. Due to this, I would recommend the removal of this information from the article as it seems to be misleading. Galloglach21 ( talk) 15:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
It seems there is no real backing for this but a number of users are adamant that the page display this. All sources indicate that Yola 'died out' in the late 19th century with words, phrases and songs surviving in the region longer up till the present day. I'm very skeptical about this misleading claim. Moling Luachra ( talk) 23:16, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
I see no reason why this article should be titled the 'Yola Language'. There is no evidence anyone ever considered it a separate language and no academic or semi-academic work on the subject calls it a language. Instead, they all tend to use the 'Forth and Bargy Dialect' or the 'Yola dialect'. The only sources that seem to call it a language pull from this Wikipedia page. Indeed, it's quite likely that the idea it is a language is from a misinterpretation of 'A Yola Zong', with people interpreting that as a 'Yola language song' instead of an old song, as the title would translate to in more standard English.
For some more modern sources about it being called a dialect, not a language, see:
Sascha Santschi-Cooney *The Forth and Bargy Dialect* (2019)-- "Yola was a dialect..." (7) and continuously refers to it as a 'dialect' throughout his book.
Raymond Hickey, in his chapter of *The Oxford Handbook of Irish English* (2023) -- "The Forth and Bargy Dialect" (48). This is consistent in all his other works on Hiberno-English that mention the topic; he does mention "*Yola*, the form of the word 'old' in the dialect, came to be used as a reference to the dialect itself."
So while he says Yola is acceptable, he explicitly states it is a *dialect*, not a language. This is congruent with his other works as well as all other, older work on the dialect and Santschi-Cooney. Thus I propose the title should be changed from 'Yola language' to 'Yola dialect', and remove calling it an 'Anglic language'. Sionnachnaréaltaí ( talk) 20:00, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
"There is no way that this dialect can be regarded as a separate language. It is a reflex of the original Middle English input to Ireland from the late 12th and 13th centuries which survived in that remote corner of Co. Wexford."
mga
) and
Classical Gaelic (ghc
), for example. The codes exist to facilitate differentiation. After all, a reflex of a language is not the precise same thing as the language itself.
Theknightwho (
talk)
15:42, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Pigginator1 If we're going to call Yola a dialect, then we need to be able to say what language it's a dialect of. It's certainly not modern English, as it dates back too early for that. Whether or not it's part of Middle English has nothing to do with the era it exists in, but whether it has diverged significantly enough from it to establish itself as a separate language. If it has, then we need to recognise it as a separate language properly (not as a "variety"); if it hasn't, then it's part of Middle English. Theknightwho ( talk) 03:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Yola dialect is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | ||||||||||
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 19 April 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Yola (language) to Yola language. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I am a newby. I don't understad the star symbol and its meaning. I think is a good thing. Herodotus21
There are small errors here which a native of south Wexford can correct.
Drazed means 'scuffed'. The drawing of thread from wool was known as 'drazing'. A wound incurred after a fall is known as a 'draze'.
Keek is actually 'geak' or 'geek' - to take a geak at something, meaning to look at it; or geeking in the window. Obvious cognate of 'gawk' and 'gawking'.
Amain may be a rendering of Ammin' meaning 'ambling along'. Rare.
Fash stems from 'farsh'. Compare with the Yiddish for old and confused person 'farshimmeldt'.
--- No no no. Farshimmeldt = far+shimmeldt 'mouldy', schimmel is mould, as it is in Dutch.
84.53.74.196
23:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The other words mentioned must be extinct.
From Poole's glossary:
Curkite could stem from a old Wexford Norse word for a badly behaved young dog - a 'cur'. Although it is more likely this is simply an variant version of a common expression in Wexford 'crookity' meaning twisted, not straight or square.
Other terms still commonly used:
Houghboy pronounced 'hoe boy' meaning a delinquent.
Rake is very commonly used to imply a large quantity, e.g. a rake of drink, there was a rake a people at the wedding, etc.
Cnat meaning a sly (usually young) person. A devious youth or petty criminal - Cnat is used more in Wexford town suggesting Norse rather Yola heritage. Similarly 'bolsker' (extinct) is almost certainly Norse. The 'Boker' in Wexford town is one of the earlist sites of norse settlement and 'bolsker' is possibly a rendering of someone (a viking settler) from the Boker' but that is pure speculation. A more likely possibility is that 'bolsker' or 'bolskar' is a fogotten placename. For instance, 'Esker' and 'Tuskar' both are place names of coastal areas, the latter for the Tuskar Lighthouse.
User:Jonisrael 15:39, 20 December 2006
As a native of south Wexford, (and a hebrew speaker), I would like to point out that in my experienece of the Carne, Kilmore and Hook areas (which encompass the Baronies of Forth and Bargy) several of the words in Diarmuid O'Murithe's list are completely unknown to me. But let's not trip over my inductive reasoning.
In the case of Jacob Poole, the collector of allegedly Yola phrases, it must be emphasised that he was not a lexicographer - despite his enthusiasm - nor was he a comparative philologist. Consequently, the relative 'ages' of the lexical items he recorded are close to conjecture.
Secondly, no one has ever verified the accuracy of Poole's rendering of Yola. Less than a handful of Yola documents exist and most of these are from the 18th century raising the possibility that the originals (if they ever existed) were massaged into something quasi-intelligible in the English of the time. One plausible explanation for the absence of written materials (one must note that the Templars founded a large abbey in the area - so an awareness of learning was extant) is that after the 'second wave' of Norman invaders came, Dublin became the center of commerce and trade, leaving the settlements of the first wave to flounder. It is likely that the merchants decamped leaving farmers and fishermen behind. The destruction of the Templars further diminished the status of the area and gradually it became a relatively insular community. At the time of the first consolidation of Forth and Bargy, the Jews in Norther France were being persecuted and sought refuge in either the papal statres or areas away from direct French Court influence. A search through patronomyics of many of the surnames in south Wexford using French genealogy resources, shows that many are not French names - or certainly not French Christian surnames. It is plausible that a proportion of the original settlers were French Jews, who wrote in the Hebrew alphabet and spoke Judeo-French (Zarphatic). Once those with writing skills left, only oral traces would have remained. I will return to the linguistic evidence later.
A couple of words listed here as Yola are, from my personal experience, also common in Scots [see Scots Language], specifically in Fife where I lived but I'm sure more widely, namely neape = turnip (spelt neep, as in the popular dish "tatties an' neeps") and fash = confusion (in the sense of mental confusion or worry, as in the frequent exortation "Dinnae fash yesel."). I'm not sure what this implies but someone more expert may be able to make something of it. 87.81.230.195 ( talk) 12:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I’m moving this to the Discussion Page in order to deal more satisfactorily with the issues of sources. I have queried the sources used for some recent changes. I deal with these below. If sources cannot be provided for these additions I suggest they be removed.
On sources in general, I have confined myself to quoting from ó Muirithe and Dolan (1996) because they conducted a scholarly and professional survey of all the source material and included in their book what they thought was worth including. Leaving out much what they considered unreliable - which includes much of Barnes's material.
I have checked Poole’s Glossary as published in ó Muirithe and Dolan (1996). I can find no mention for the following words: weisforth, londe, daie, yersel, vriend
Please provide a source for these words.
The reference to “Poole 1867” means, I presume, the book written by William Barnes in 1867 and entitled Glossary of the Dialect of Forth and Bargy, which reprints Poole’s Glossary. On page 133 (which is a quote from a speech given to the British Association by the Very Reverend C W Russell, DD, President of St Patrick’s College Maynooth) there is a discussion of pronouns and a general comparison with modern English. However, I cannot find any reference to the information, specifically the forms of cases for personal pronouns, as laid out in the table.
This book can be downloaded from Google Books. Geraldkelly ( talk) 09:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Re: Pronouns
If you take the care to read through all of the sources, including the Yola Zong and read the translation, all of the pronouns become obvious. I don't really feel like citing every single pronoun (there are multiple spellings) in every single story but I suggest you look through the book before deleting them again. Αεκος ( talk) 20:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Reply
The reference to page 133 of this book is incorrect. Please re-read what I wrote above under Pronouns (where I went to the trouble of finding the correct reference). To be included in the article information must be from a reputable source. If this is some original research by yourself then please provide us with access to this. Amateur speculation about Yola grammar isn't particularly useful and gives the misleading impression that this subject has been thoroughly researched which to my knowledge it hasn't.
As with the other list of words which I also dealt with previously, you have put these back in the article and you have still not provided sources.
One of the problems with this subject is that there has been very little research and so there are very few sources of information. In fact as regards Yola grammar I would go so far as to say that there are no reliable sources of information. The article should reflect this lack of information rather than including stuff which is just guessed at.
Geraldkelly ( talk) 13:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
"stuff which is just guessed at"
Guessed at? It's all in the primary sources in the glossary. Do we need to cite the page of every single pronoun usage, then also cite the page of the English translation? Go to the Google Books page, type "wough," page 79. Typing "thou," "mee," "thee," etc. will turn up similar results. Yes, there are variant spellings, and if I've missed them you're welcome to look in the glossary and add them. But there are hardly guesses, they're all in the glossary somewhere. Αεκος ( talk) 03:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
This is my last word on this subject because if you don't listen to me this time there isn't any point saying it again. The source you give for all of your contributions to this article is "Poole's Glossary". However, none of it is in "Poole's Glossary". I've already explained this at the very beginning under the heading Pronouns.
For everything you put in this article you must be able to put your finger on the spot and say "this comes from here" or "this claim is justified by this evidence". So far you haven't done that.
As an aside, Barnes, Russell, etc. are not primary sources. As far as I know Barnes never even came to Ireland. But that is irrelevant for now. Geraldkelly ( talk) 10:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm unsure why genetics (as a marker of prehistoric/historic population movements) is considered by other contributors to be on little relevance to language transmission and development in the pre-industrial world. There is strong evidence that, prior to the 19th century transportation revolution, arable farming populations were very static. There is little evidence that any significant numbers of english speaking peasants moved to Ireland during historic times due to the logistic difficulties. Arable farmers can only move during the seasonal window between late Autumn after harvest time to early Spring before planting! It is highly likely that most of the "peasant" farming population in Ireland are descended from the original neolithic farmer seettlers. These tended to move in small bands and the genetic evidence of Brtain and Ireland suggests that they intermarried with females from the hunter-gather bands they encountered. Linguistic studies show that language usage among the base farming population tends to change very slowly - many examples can be cited from Central America, Latin America and South Asia where the language of a conquering Aristocracy (e.g. the Spanish) has had only limited lingusitic impact on the native populations until the rise of the modern state apparatus and mass education in the 20th century. Obviously, the attribution of Yola as the language of the neolithic farming population of eastern Ireland is controversial given that the origin of English as the language of neolithic farmers in England has not been widely accepted yet despite its possible inference from one of the earliest written descriptions of Britain (i.e. Julius Caesar) but is quite plausible and supportable from Gaelic Literature e.g, the Book of Invasions.
Many thanks for your reply. I should have added previously that the article (exclusive of my own limited contribution) is very informative. My own view is that Yola is a very important relict neolithic language which may demonstrate the resilence of language to change in the pre-modern world (just as Gaelic proved very resilient to change in many parts of Ireland until the 20th century CE). The language transmission process you describe is quite valid and actually supports my proposition - its application to the spreading of a common dominant language among different ethnic groups is really only relevant with the introduction of mass education from the 19th century onwards. Aristocratic invaders throughout history until the 19th Century usually took little trouble with trying to change the language of those they conquered - in fact they were usually very anxious to distinguish themselves from the conquered (i.e. the Spanish in Latin America, the British in India). Since you introduced the article by outling the commonly accepted history of Yola, I thought that readers might be interested in recent developments - I'm happy to move this to a separate section if you wish. By the way I am Irish amd find it quite interesting to find a possible historic example of a Gaelic speaking aristocracy dominating a significant English speaking population for 2000 years! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.211.36 ( talk) 19:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
There is considerable evidence in Irish history to the presence of other tribal groups contemporary with the Gaels/Milesians from the earliest written sources. For instance the Irish annals refer to the tribes of "aithechthúatha" whom the Romans may also have being referring to under the title "Attacotti" whom they distinguished from the "Scotti" (usually interpreted as the Gaels). The proposition that Yola is related to middle-English is also quite questionable. The current accepted English Language paradigm itself takes quite a few leaps of logic based on almost negligible evidence (in fact it ignores some of the earliest written evidence!) and is almost completely contra to known historic paterns of population migration and language adoption. Though Harper may be a "crackpot" he does point out many of the deficiences of the current paradigm - he has a least challenged the defenders of the current English (and indeed other Indo-European) language paradigms to produce more evidence to substantiate their assumptions. I feel that it is tantamount to censorship to delete an alternaive historic interpretation of the available evidence and that can point to the work of other historians of relevant fields. Though Harper may be putting forth quite a different interpretation of the available genetic, linguistic and achaeological evidence he is hardly in the Eric VanDanikan / Zacharia Sitchin league of "historians" - no aliens or supertechnology involved! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.228.19 ( talk) 21:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Many thanks for your reply. Unfortunaely I disagree that the historical evidence is so clearcut. I think that the invocation of "censorship" is fair where no room is left open for disenting but reasoned views - after all, all great truths begin as heresies! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.28.216.164 ( talk) 22:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I quote: "it evolved separately among the English (known as the Old English) who followed the Norman barons Strongbow and Robert Fitzstephen to eastern Ireland in 1169." Sorry, the Normans spoke French, and even the English (who have never been known as 'the Old English' didn't speak modern English - Yoda (lol, oh tut tut, I can't spell now) can hardly have evolved from it. The Irish in the east spoke English in the 19th century - that's not exactly surprising. This garbage wasn't written on April 1st was it? The quoted statement, like most of this piece is, to put it kindly Wikipedia b-s. Johnpretty010 ( talk) 00:41, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
This article needs IPA to be used in it to demonstrate pronunciations. The current spellings are clumsy and could be pronounced vastly different depending on the readers own dialect. If I can find the source documents, I will put the proper phonetic spellings in. DonConquistador ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Regarding the IPA, why is the diphthong [ɑi] described as "not in English". This is the most prevalent realisation of the diphthong /aɪ/ in English English and I expect in Irish English as well, so will be perfectly familiar to what I expect would be the majority of the English-speaking readers of this page.
I've removed the term "Anglic" twice now, as it doesn't appear in the cited sources I've been able to check. It's certainly absent from the two books by Hickey I cited in my additions. The term appears to be pretty obscure and may be confusing to readers. Additionally, the Hickey books call this a "dialect" or "variety", but never a "language". Finally, I think the List of dialects of the English language article is a better and more intuitive target than English languages; if anything the two articles should be merged.-- Cúchullain t/ c 14:43, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 16:34, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Yola language → Forth and Bargy dialect – While "Yola" is in use, it appears the proposed form is more common in the sources on the topic. Diarmaid Ó Muirithe's work is titled The Dialect of Forth and Bargy Co. Wexford, Ireland, and the dialect is listed as "Forth and Bargy" in Raymond Hickey's Dublin English and A Source Book for Irish English. It's the same in The Cambridge History of the English Language, [1] Poole's Glossary, [2] and other sources. [3] [4] According to Kwamikagami, the ISO name is "Yola", and this turns up in some sources, but it seems to be less common. Additionally, all of the sources I could check use the term "dialect" rather than "language". Cúchullain t/ c 17:33, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
hi lads. amain is actually a norman word derived from the old norse 'almanna' which means 'of easy use', so im guessing that goin on amain means getting along easily or without any hassle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilowex ( talk • contribs) 17:39, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
There is much use of the term "Southern Ireland" no doubt by an English write who wishes to distinguish that part of Ireland from the British possession of Northern Ireland. However, to anyone else in the world who is not British the term "Southern Ireland" would probably mean the extreme south of the island of Ireland rather than the Republic of Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.20.219 ( talk) 06:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
"The last speaker of Yola died in 1998." --should this be 1898 perhaps ? Leasnam ( talk) 17:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I saw an old woman who was claimed to be the last speaker of Yola on television (The Late Late Show) in the 1970s, so 1998 could be correct. Gnomon42 11:34, 4 July 2017
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Forth and Bargy dialect. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:25, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Why on Earth is this page in the Category:Spurious languages? Is there any serious doubt that this dialect existed? Steinbach ( talk) 20:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) NW1223< Howl at me• My hunts> 19:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Yola (language) → Yola language – Current title is inconsistent with other titles for languages. ~Red of Arctic Circle System ( talk) 18:24, 18 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. signed, 511KeV (talk) 16:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
things Must have been confusing For every one when they got to drinking . 209.171.85.210 ( talk) 17:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
Is there much warrant to include a revival date or L2 speakers? The source provided seems to be original to whoever added the edit, and the justification for the number given within is based on either unreliable or unverifiable information.
In particular, the discord server which provides the 140 speaker count experiences only sporadic activity and there has not been conversation in Yola since 2022. For those of you who wish to see the server for yourselves, the link can be found on the 'Gabble ing Yola' website ( https://sites.google.com/view/gabble-ing-yola/language/english?authuser=0).
To wrap up, this really seems more like a group of people interested in the language from an academic perspective rather than a serious attempt at revival. Due to this, I would recommend the removal of this information from the article as it seems to be misleading. Galloglach21 ( talk) 15:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
It seems there is no real backing for this but a number of users are adamant that the page display this. All sources indicate that Yola 'died out' in the late 19th century with words, phrases and songs surviving in the region longer up till the present day. I'm very skeptical about this misleading claim. Moling Luachra ( talk) 23:16, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
I see no reason why this article should be titled the 'Yola Language'. There is no evidence anyone ever considered it a separate language and no academic or semi-academic work on the subject calls it a language. Instead, they all tend to use the 'Forth and Bargy Dialect' or the 'Yola dialect'. The only sources that seem to call it a language pull from this Wikipedia page. Indeed, it's quite likely that the idea it is a language is from a misinterpretation of 'A Yola Zong', with people interpreting that as a 'Yola language song' instead of an old song, as the title would translate to in more standard English.
For some more modern sources about it being called a dialect, not a language, see:
Sascha Santschi-Cooney *The Forth and Bargy Dialect* (2019)-- "Yola was a dialect..." (7) and continuously refers to it as a 'dialect' throughout his book.
Raymond Hickey, in his chapter of *The Oxford Handbook of Irish English* (2023) -- "The Forth and Bargy Dialect" (48). This is consistent in all his other works on Hiberno-English that mention the topic; he does mention "*Yola*, the form of the word 'old' in the dialect, came to be used as a reference to the dialect itself."
So while he says Yola is acceptable, he explicitly states it is a *dialect*, not a language. This is congruent with his other works as well as all other, older work on the dialect and Santschi-Cooney. Thus I propose the title should be changed from 'Yola language' to 'Yola dialect', and remove calling it an 'Anglic language'. Sionnachnaréaltaí ( talk) 20:00, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
"There is no way that this dialect can be regarded as a separate language. It is a reflex of the original Middle English input to Ireland from the late 12th and 13th centuries which survived in that remote corner of Co. Wexford."
mga
) and
Classical Gaelic (ghc
), for example. The codes exist to facilitate differentiation. After all, a reflex of a language is not the precise same thing as the language itself.
Theknightwho (
talk)
15:42, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Pigginator1 If we're going to call Yola a dialect, then we need to be able to say what language it's a dialect of. It's certainly not modern English, as it dates back too early for that. Whether or not it's part of Middle English has nothing to do with the era it exists in, but whether it has diverged significantly enough from it to establish itself as a separate language. If it has, then we need to recognise it as a separate language properly (not as a "variety"); if it hasn't, then it's part of Middle English. Theknightwho ( talk) 03:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)