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After reading over the fall of Yan Liang at Guan Du, Guan Yu caught Yan Liang off guard. Although Guan Yu receives some credit for killing one of Yuan Shao's strongest generals, Yan Liang did not even have time to defend himself from the assault of Guan Yu.
Both Yan Liang and Wen Chou would have made a great team if they both would have fought against Guan Yu together. I wonder how it would turn out? -- Zhang Liao 18:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
At the start of the battle of Guandu, general Yan Liang was to be the advance gaurd for the assault of Baima; however, Ju Shou (As you guessed it) protested saying, "His mind is too narrow for such a post. He is brave but unequal to such a trust."
Yuan Shao, on the other hand, replied in a manner only fitting to the trust he has for his generals. "You are not the sort of man to measure my best generals," replied Yuan Shao.
Although Yan Liang was brave and good, he manages prove his worth by slaying Wei Xu and Song Xian before he met his end at the hands of Guan Yu. It is rather funny that Ju Shou saw the deaths of Wen Chou and Yan Liang as he spoke about them. -- Zhang Liao 19:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
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Yan Liang has been active recently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngancheekean ( talk • contribs) 16:43, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Cao Cao and Liu Bei were warlords under Yuan Shao. Yuan (surname) Ngancheekean ( talk) 05:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Go read more on งันเหลียง & Nhan Lương. There are translated version of Yan Liang in thai and vietnamese, is it the same battle of baima that you are talking or is it still the battle of guandu. Ngancheekean ( talk) 10:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
You can also think of ways to deified Yan Liang. Ngancheekean ( talk) 10:10, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
So one of the recent editing disagreements is about Cao Zhi. Ngancheekean tends to put Cao Zhi in the links section with a focus on the famous Yuefu White Horse which Ngancheekean believes is connected to Yan Liang and points to Cao Zhi writing of Boma on other times. Then is puzzled why other wiki editors, including myself, remove it each and every time so hoping this will help explain and at least give a chance for Ngancheekean to provide wider sources that it was intended about Yan Liang.
I would suggest, normally, what would be more helpful then just a link to Cao Zhi would have been including in the article something about inspiring Cao Zhi or the connection. However in this case, the connection between Yan Liang and Cao Zhi is non-existent as far as I can tell. The poem says nothing of Yan Liang, it doesn't mention his name and there are no indicators that it is about Yan Liang or indeed anyone from Yuan Shao's army. The signifier of the man in the poem are a figure from the errantry (Yan Liang not known as an errant) of the You-Bing traditions, left home town and served on frontier (no indication he did so) where he made a name for himself (again, no indication that is where Yan Liang got his reputation from, more from service under Yuan Shao), his archery skills (no indication Yan Liang was noted for that), brave (certainly with Yan Liang) and agile (see archery), fighting the Xiongnu and Xianbei (Yan Liang isn't mentioned fighting any of them). Leaving aside the problems Cao Zhi writing about generals his father had destroyed given Cao Zhi's political situations, nothing in the poem indicates it is talking about a Yuan Shao miliatry figure, let alone Yan Liang.
In "The Incident at the Gate: Cao Zhi, the Succession, and Literary Fame" by Robert Cutter (who has written a few times on Cao Zh and is an expert on early medieval Chinese literature), Cutter talks about it (with citing from James J. Y. Liu and Guo Maoqian) from page 242-244 amidst wider talk of Cao Zhi's theme of patriotic poems and his wish to be of service including in a miliatry sense which again is part of other poems he writes. Now there may be an argument from other academics that is Yan Liang but that hasn't been provided as yet.
On the Boma issue, there is one that Sun Sheng records where Cao Zhi writes for his beloved brother Cao Biao, holding the rank of Prince of Boma, as they depart. That would only be relevant to Cao Zhi and Cao Biao's wiki's (or possibly one involving Wei's policy on imperial family members), it has nothing to do with Yan Liang or even Boma.
So until there is an explanation on why Cao Zhi's poem is relevant to Yan Liang and why the interpretations of others should be laid aside, I don't think attempts to link Cao Zhi should be included. DongZhuo3kingdoms ( talk) 14:39, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Since you already defended Yan Liang then DongZhuo3kingdoms was right on this part. (The additions of "who was killed by Sun Quan's forces" after every mention of Guan Yu was not relevant or helpful. Removed them.) I did not take the context from historical text to justify it just link a chinese 顔良. There was just no time for me to defend, so you should defend Yan Liang with.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngancheekean ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Do you know the meaning of Baima (白马)? It should mean white horse, so do you have any lead from here. White Horse Temple (Chinese: 白马寺) is a Buddhist temple in Luoyang, Henan that, according to tradition, is the first Buddhist temple in China, having been first established in 68 AD under the patronage of Emperor Ming in the Eastern Han dynasty. The place Yan Liang died in Battle of Boma is Hua County, Henan. Can you relate any of this? Ngancheekean ( talk) 17:18, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Maybe you should put in Taoism section or any religion beside Confucianism, since i began to suspect the argument of yan liang (which he is not a handsome guy, some critic put in ugly description for yan liang). As usual, Kong Rong defended Yan Liang but it was as usual for you, and on Cao Cao's side was Liu Yan during Battle of Boma. The article is written with no working experience, which I think i will delete it if its not satisfactory. Read more on the japanese article too 顔良. 顔 (japanese) which means face, so you been warned. Cao Zhi poem on white horse (reason no connection between cao zhi and yan liang) link not allowed, also White Horse Temple link should put in the article too, to broaden the scope of the article. Ngancheekean ( talk) 03:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Cao Cao was very reluctant to use Guan Yu against Yan Liang which he believes he will leave once he repay kindness to Cao Cao, Guan Yu (no idea what that Guan Yu means) then did leave and went back to Liu Bei. Cao (Chinese surname) (reason yan surname link already in the article which i think cao surname should put in it to broaden the perspective, which this is a historical character article) link also not allowed? My reason is actually to wider the scope of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngancheekean ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
In the end, Yan Liang lost the head. There isnt much different for Yan Liang in Romance of Three Kingdoms. If you know the story, you should know he be killed sooner than later since he is a military general. So White Horse Temple, Cao Zhi and Cao (surname), should be included in the article. Ngancheekean ( talk) 02:28, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Guan Yu is a worship figure, so you will be asked about Yan Liang now and then, since Guan Yu is famous for its repay its kindness to Cao Cao by slaying Yan Liang, because Yan Liang has been recklessly slaying soldiers. I wont say much racist sentences, also I cant argue much, since I didnt do research much on Yan Liang, not even read the texts available. It's just more on my personal opinion which maybe a help to the article. Ngancheekean ( talk) 15:15, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
There isnt much information on Yan Liang on Baidu too. Maybe the article has reached a limit. https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%A2%9C%E8%89%AF/5431 Ngancheekean ( talk) 15:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm finding reasons to delete this article. Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion: G10 has been rejected by User:Firefly. It is also by written by non-registered user, 81.103.217.69 Ngancheekean ( talk) 10:40, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
DongZhuo3kingdoms ( talk) 12:23, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%85%B3%E7%BE%BD/17338 - 关羽 /info/en/?search=Guan_Yu - Guan Yu
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%85%B3%E5%A7%93/3248025- 关姓
源于董姓。出自远古帝舜时期养龙高手董父,属于以先祖名号为氏。据史籍《姓源》、《通志·姓氏略》记载,颛顼有个后代叫飂叔安,擅长养龙,古代称马为“龙”。飂叔安的儿子叫董父,在帝舜执政时期负责养龙,被封为豢龙氏。在古代,“豢”、“关”二字同音通用,所以后来又写作关龙氏。在董父的后裔子孙中,多有以先祖封号为姓氏者,称豢龙氏、关龙氏,后省文简化分衍为单姓关氏、龙氏,世代相传,是非常古老的姓氏之一。在关龙氏族人中,有个著名的人物叫关龙逄,是夏王朝末期夏桀执政时期的一位大夫,曾因功受封于黄河北邑,因此史称其地为“关邑”。一直到了春秋时期的周定王姬瑜二十年(晋景公姬孺十三年,公元前587年),晋国的中军元帅、正卿栾书被封于关邑,才改置关邑为“栾邑”,就是今河北省的栾城市。Derived from the surname Dong. It comes from Dong Fu, a master of raising dragons during the time of Emperor Shun in ancient times. He is named after his ancestor. According to the historical records "Surname Source" and "Tongzhi: Surname Brief", Zhuanxu had a descendant named Shu'an who was good at raising dragons. In ancient times, horses were called "dragons". Shu'an's son, Dong Fu, was responsible for raising dragons during Emperor Shun's reign and was named the Dragon Clan. In ancient times, the two characters "袢" and "Guan" had the same pronunciation, so it was later written as Guan Longshi. Among the descendants of Dong's father, there are many who take the title of their ancestors as their surnames, and are called Huanlong and Guanlong. Later, they were simplified and divided into the single surnames Guan and Long. They have been passed down from generation to generation and are one of the very ancient surnames. . Among the Guanlong clan, there was a famous figure named Guan Longpang. He was a great official during the reign of Xia Jie at the end of the Xia Dynasty. He was awarded the title of "Guanyi" in the north of the Yellow River for his meritorious service. Therefore, history calls the place "Guanyi". It was not until the 20th year of Ji Yu, King of Zhou Ding during the Spring and Autumn Period (the 13th year of Jin Jinggong Ji Ru's reign, 587 BC), that Luan Shu, the marshal of the Chinese army and Zhengqing of the Jin State, was granted the title of Guanyi. It was called "Luan Yi", which is today's Luan City in Hebei Province.
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E8%91%A3%E5%A7%93/617280 - 董姓
源于己姓。①出自帝舜赐予颛顼后裔飂之子的姓氏,属于帝王赐姓为氏。相传,颛顼的己姓后裔中有个人叫飂叔安,史书上亦称廖叔安。飂叔安有个儿子叫董父,他对龙(马)的习性很有研究,于是舜帝就任命董父为豢龙氏,让他专门养龙。在董父的精心驯养下,许多龙学会了表演各种舞蹈,帝舜很是喜欢,就封董父为鬷川侯(今山东定陶),还赐他以董为姓氏,他的后代就是董氏,世代相传,是非常古老的姓氏之一,史称董氏正宗。董氏族人大多尊奉董父为得姓始祖。Derived from his surname. ①The surname comes from the surname given by Emperor Shun to the son of Zhuanxu's descendant. It belongs to the surname given by the emperor. According to legend, one of Zhuan Xu’s descendants was named Liao Shu’an, who was also called Liao Shu’an in history books. Shu'an had a son named Dong's father. He was very knowledgeable about the habits of dragons (horses), so Emperor Shun appointed Dong's father as the Dragon Master and asked him to specialize in raising dragons. Under Dong's father's careful taming, many dragons learned to perform various dances. Emperor Shun liked it very much, so he named Dong's father the Marquis of Chuan (now Dingtao, Shandong) and gave him the surname Dong. His descendants are The Dong family has been passed down from generation to generation. It is one of the very ancient surnames and is known as the authentic Dong family in history. Most people of the Dong clan respect Dong's father as the ancestor of their surname.
Learn from the defeat and move on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikisoeasy ( talk • contribs) 13:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Yan Liang article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
After reading over the fall of Yan Liang at Guan Du, Guan Yu caught Yan Liang off guard. Although Guan Yu receives some credit for killing one of Yuan Shao's strongest generals, Yan Liang did not even have time to defend himself from the assault of Guan Yu.
Both Yan Liang and Wen Chou would have made a great team if they both would have fought against Guan Yu together. I wonder how it would turn out? -- Zhang Liao 18:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
At the start of the battle of Guandu, general Yan Liang was to be the advance gaurd for the assault of Baima; however, Ju Shou (As you guessed it) protested saying, "His mind is too narrow for such a post. He is brave but unequal to such a trust."
Yuan Shao, on the other hand, replied in a manner only fitting to the trust he has for his generals. "You are not the sort of man to measure my best generals," replied Yuan Shao.
Although Yan Liang was brave and good, he manages prove his worth by slaying Wei Xu and Song Xian before he met his end at the hands of Guan Yu. It is rather funny that Ju Shou saw the deaths of Wen Chou and Yan Liang as he spoke about them. -- Zhang Liao 19:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
![]() |
An image used in this article,
File:Yan Liang.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Yan Liang.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 21:39, 16 April 2012 (UTC) |
Yan Liang has been active recently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngancheekean ( talk • contribs) 16:43, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Cao Cao and Liu Bei were warlords under Yuan Shao. Yuan (surname) Ngancheekean ( talk) 05:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Go read more on งันเหลียง & Nhan Lương. There are translated version of Yan Liang in thai and vietnamese, is it the same battle of baima that you are talking or is it still the battle of guandu. Ngancheekean ( talk) 10:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
You can also think of ways to deified Yan Liang. Ngancheekean ( talk) 10:10, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
So one of the recent editing disagreements is about Cao Zhi. Ngancheekean tends to put Cao Zhi in the links section with a focus on the famous Yuefu White Horse which Ngancheekean believes is connected to Yan Liang and points to Cao Zhi writing of Boma on other times. Then is puzzled why other wiki editors, including myself, remove it each and every time so hoping this will help explain and at least give a chance for Ngancheekean to provide wider sources that it was intended about Yan Liang.
I would suggest, normally, what would be more helpful then just a link to Cao Zhi would have been including in the article something about inspiring Cao Zhi or the connection. However in this case, the connection between Yan Liang and Cao Zhi is non-existent as far as I can tell. The poem says nothing of Yan Liang, it doesn't mention his name and there are no indicators that it is about Yan Liang or indeed anyone from Yuan Shao's army. The signifier of the man in the poem are a figure from the errantry (Yan Liang not known as an errant) of the You-Bing traditions, left home town and served on frontier (no indication he did so) where he made a name for himself (again, no indication that is where Yan Liang got his reputation from, more from service under Yuan Shao), his archery skills (no indication Yan Liang was noted for that), brave (certainly with Yan Liang) and agile (see archery), fighting the Xiongnu and Xianbei (Yan Liang isn't mentioned fighting any of them). Leaving aside the problems Cao Zhi writing about generals his father had destroyed given Cao Zhi's political situations, nothing in the poem indicates it is talking about a Yuan Shao miliatry figure, let alone Yan Liang.
In "The Incident at the Gate: Cao Zhi, the Succession, and Literary Fame" by Robert Cutter (who has written a few times on Cao Zh and is an expert on early medieval Chinese literature), Cutter talks about it (with citing from James J. Y. Liu and Guo Maoqian) from page 242-244 amidst wider talk of Cao Zhi's theme of patriotic poems and his wish to be of service including in a miliatry sense which again is part of other poems he writes. Now there may be an argument from other academics that is Yan Liang but that hasn't been provided as yet.
On the Boma issue, there is one that Sun Sheng records where Cao Zhi writes for his beloved brother Cao Biao, holding the rank of Prince of Boma, as they depart. That would only be relevant to Cao Zhi and Cao Biao's wiki's (or possibly one involving Wei's policy on imperial family members), it has nothing to do with Yan Liang or even Boma.
So until there is an explanation on why Cao Zhi's poem is relevant to Yan Liang and why the interpretations of others should be laid aside, I don't think attempts to link Cao Zhi should be included. DongZhuo3kingdoms ( talk) 14:39, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Since you already defended Yan Liang then DongZhuo3kingdoms was right on this part. (The additions of "who was killed by Sun Quan's forces" after every mention of Guan Yu was not relevant or helpful. Removed them.) I did not take the context from historical text to justify it just link a chinese 顔良. There was just no time for me to defend, so you should defend Yan Liang with.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngancheekean ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Do you know the meaning of Baima (白马)? It should mean white horse, so do you have any lead from here. White Horse Temple (Chinese: 白马寺) is a Buddhist temple in Luoyang, Henan that, according to tradition, is the first Buddhist temple in China, having been first established in 68 AD under the patronage of Emperor Ming in the Eastern Han dynasty. The place Yan Liang died in Battle of Boma is Hua County, Henan. Can you relate any of this? Ngancheekean ( talk) 17:18, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Maybe you should put in Taoism section or any religion beside Confucianism, since i began to suspect the argument of yan liang (which he is not a handsome guy, some critic put in ugly description for yan liang). As usual, Kong Rong defended Yan Liang but it was as usual for you, and on Cao Cao's side was Liu Yan during Battle of Boma. The article is written with no working experience, which I think i will delete it if its not satisfactory. Read more on the japanese article too 顔良. 顔 (japanese) which means face, so you been warned. Cao Zhi poem on white horse (reason no connection between cao zhi and yan liang) link not allowed, also White Horse Temple link should put in the article too, to broaden the scope of the article. Ngancheekean ( talk) 03:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Cao Cao was very reluctant to use Guan Yu against Yan Liang which he believes he will leave once he repay kindness to Cao Cao, Guan Yu (no idea what that Guan Yu means) then did leave and went back to Liu Bei. Cao (Chinese surname) (reason yan surname link already in the article which i think cao surname should put in it to broaden the perspective, which this is a historical character article) link also not allowed? My reason is actually to wider the scope of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngancheekean ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
In the end, Yan Liang lost the head. There isnt much different for Yan Liang in Romance of Three Kingdoms. If you know the story, you should know he be killed sooner than later since he is a military general. So White Horse Temple, Cao Zhi and Cao (surname), should be included in the article. Ngancheekean ( talk) 02:28, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Guan Yu is a worship figure, so you will be asked about Yan Liang now and then, since Guan Yu is famous for its repay its kindness to Cao Cao by slaying Yan Liang, because Yan Liang has been recklessly slaying soldiers. I wont say much racist sentences, also I cant argue much, since I didnt do research much on Yan Liang, not even read the texts available. It's just more on my personal opinion which maybe a help to the article. Ngancheekean ( talk) 15:15, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
There isnt much information on Yan Liang on Baidu too. Maybe the article has reached a limit. https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%A2%9C%E8%89%AF/5431 Ngancheekean ( talk) 15:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm finding reasons to delete this article. Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion: G10 has been rejected by User:Firefly. It is also by written by non-registered user, 81.103.217.69 Ngancheekean ( talk) 10:40, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
DongZhuo3kingdoms ( talk) 12:23, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%85%B3%E7%BE%BD/17338 - 关羽 /info/en/?search=Guan_Yu - Guan Yu
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%85%B3%E5%A7%93/3248025- 关姓
源于董姓。出自远古帝舜时期养龙高手董父,属于以先祖名号为氏。据史籍《姓源》、《通志·姓氏略》记载,颛顼有个后代叫飂叔安,擅长养龙,古代称马为“龙”。飂叔安的儿子叫董父,在帝舜执政时期负责养龙,被封为豢龙氏。在古代,“豢”、“关”二字同音通用,所以后来又写作关龙氏。在董父的后裔子孙中,多有以先祖封号为姓氏者,称豢龙氏、关龙氏,后省文简化分衍为单姓关氏、龙氏,世代相传,是非常古老的姓氏之一。在关龙氏族人中,有个著名的人物叫关龙逄,是夏王朝末期夏桀执政时期的一位大夫,曾因功受封于黄河北邑,因此史称其地为“关邑”。一直到了春秋时期的周定王姬瑜二十年(晋景公姬孺十三年,公元前587年),晋国的中军元帅、正卿栾书被封于关邑,才改置关邑为“栾邑”,就是今河北省的栾城市。Derived from the surname Dong. It comes from Dong Fu, a master of raising dragons during the time of Emperor Shun in ancient times. He is named after his ancestor. According to the historical records "Surname Source" and "Tongzhi: Surname Brief", Zhuanxu had a descendant named Shu'an who was good at raising dragons. In ancient times, horses were called "dragons". Shu'an's son, Dong Fu, was responsible for raising dragons during Emperor Shun's reign and was named the Dragon Clan. In ancient times, the two characters "袢" and "Guan" had the same pronunciation, so it was later written as Guan Longshi. Among the descendants of Dong's father, there are many who take the title of their ancestors as their surnames, and are called Huanlong and Guanlong. Later, they were simplified and divided into the single surnames Guan and Long. They have been passed down from generation to generation and are one of the very ancient surnames. . Among the Guanlong clan, there was a famous figure named Guan Longpang. He was a great official during the reign of Xia Jie at the end of the Xia Dynasty. He was awarded the title of "Guanyi" in the north of the Yellow River for his meritorious service. Therefore, history calls the place "Guanyi". It was not until the 20th year of Ji Yu, King of Zhou Ding during the Spring and Autumn Period (the 13th year of Jin Jinggong Ji Ru's reign, 587 BC), that Luan Shu, the marshal of the Chinese army and Zhengqing of the Jin State, was granted the title of Guanyi. It was called "Luan Yi", which is today's Luan City in Hebei Province.
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E8%91%A3%E5%A7%93/617280 - 董姓
源于己姓。①出自帝舜赐予颛顼后裔飂之子的姓氏,属于帝王赐姓为氏。相传,颛顼的己姓后裔中有个人叫飂叔安,史书上亦称廖叔安。飂叔安有个儿子叫董父,他对龙(马)的习性很有研究,于是舜帝就任命董父为豢龙氏,让他专门养龙。在董父的精心驯养下,许多龙学会了表演各种舞蹈,帝舜很是喜欢,就封董父为鬷川侯(今山东定陶),还赐他以董为姓氏,他的后代就是董氏,世代相传,是非常古老的姓氏之一,史称董氏正宗。董氏族人大多尊奉董父为得姓始祖。Derived from his surname. ①The surname comes from the surname given by Emperor Shun to the son of Zhuanxu's descendant. It belongs to the surname given by the emperor. According to legend, one of Zhuan Xu’s descendants was named Liao Shu’an, who was also called Liao Shu’an in history books. Shu'an had a son named Dong's father. He was very knowledgeable about the habits of dragons (horses), so Emperor Shun appointed Dong's father as the Dragon Master and asked him to specialize in raising dragons. Under Dong's father's careful taming, many dragons learned to perform various dances. Emperor Shun liked it very much, so he named Dong's father the Marquis of Chuan (now Dingtao, Shandong) and gave him the surname Dong. His descendants are The Dong family has been passed down from generation to generation. It is one of the very ancient surnames and is known as the authentic Dong family in history. Most people of the Dong clan respect Dong's father as the ancestor of their surname.
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