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On 15 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Astral religion. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
article should probably reside at astrolatry, which is the unambiguous term. I had a hard time figuring out what "astro-theology" is supposed to mean, as the term is thrown around in various and partly confused contexts of the "religion vs science" debate in the 18th century. -- dab (𒁳) 12:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Can someone familiar with his work cite this? Or on second thought, wasn't he just a great compiler of such details? Has the comparison been drawn by others? Do we even need that paragraph? Skyerise ( talk) 15:15, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
A section should be added about the relationship with the planetary magic of Hermetic Qabala, along with other systems (eg. John Dee, other non-qabalistic systems of planetary magic). Thompson's book in Further reading addresses this, though mostly from the POV of James Lees so other sources would be needed. Iirc, Dennings & Phillips also covered this in their ogdoadic system. Skyerise ( talk) 13:43, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 October 2023 and 24 October 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dp20032003 ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Dp20032003 ( talk) 14:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
It seems that the academic use of "astrotheology" is unrelated to the way it is used here, as the worship of the stars (individually or together as the night sky), the planets, and other heavenly bodies as deities, or the association of deities with heavenly bodies
. It is allegedly a
WP:NPOV version of
astrolatry, which now redirects here. However the actual use of this term in academic literature, including literature included on the page, seems to be very different, see:
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help)...and plenty of others, I found all of these just doing a quick search for "astrotheology" on
Google Scholar. These all discuss the intersections of modern spaceflight and theology "to identify elements of religion and myth in discussions of space science and to prepare people for possible future developments" as Harrison puts it. It is not a term for "the worship of stars" or other heavenly bodies. The term appears to refer to a much narrower idea which really only encompasses what is covered here at
Astrotheology#Connections with other fields. Indeed, the earliest use of the term is by
William Derham, who argued the "demonstration of sacred truths" from "a survey of heavenly bodies"
according to the
original version of the page. The idea that astrotheology refers to the worship of astral bodies seems to originate with an unreliable source: Irvin, Jan; Rutajit, Andrew (2006-01-01). Astrotheology and Shamanism.
ISBN
978-1-58509-107-2. This books argues that Christianity is a pagan cult originally based on star-worship and the use of
psychedelics, and knowledge of these hidden roots are "concealed behind a campaign to prohibit access to entheogenic sacraments through a Pharmacratic Inquisition."
It seems that Astrotheology was previously merged into Astrolatry by @ Klbrain in 2018, see here. @ Liz appears to have moved Astrolatry to Astrotheology under the presumption that "astrolatry" does not reflect a WP:NPOV.
@ Liz: why is "astrolatry" not neutral? It seems to be used widely and there's a number of people who use it as a self-descriptor. Furthermore, it seems this alternative is not an improvement. Tryin to make a change :-/ 10:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against the original rationale, evidence has been provided for the "worship of heavenly bodies" as a widely used term, independent of "astral religion". This negates the primary move rationale. The discussion suggests that the worship of heavenly bodies is a wider phenomenon than astral religion, and as such the current title is appropriate. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph ( talk) 15:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Worship of heavenly bodies → Astral religion – the correct term for this is "astral religion", the current title is ad-hoc and made up by an editor who failed to follow process and open a proper move request. Skyerise ( talk) 12:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus ( talk) 11:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
fix[ing] it yourself instead of just talking about it. That is irrelevant, though. Tryin to make a change :-/ 12:43, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
[A]stral religions are astral cultsbut not all worship of heavenly bodies can properly be called cultic (which as you note is not the same as the popular meaning of the word "cult" but a technical term that does not encompass the entirety of religious phenomena.) As I noted about the source, it implies that the
worship of heavenly bodiesis the wider phenomenon being discussed. You know, looking at the page, this page borders on WP:SYNTH or even WP:OR -- I don't actually think that there is a "proper name" to be discussed here since it is mostly pieced together mentions of star and planet worship in various religions rather than something that is studied as a phenomenon in its own right. Tryin to make a change :-/ 18:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Worship of heavenly bodiesis not an ad hoc coining but something I came across scouring scholarly literature for astrotheology. Tryin to make a change :-/ 13:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
I included the next sourced information in the article:
The first philosopher and theologian to seriously advocate for life in other planets was [[Giordano Bruno]], who was burned alive for heresy due to this challenging the uniqueness of the Pope as God's sole representative.<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/biography/Giordano-Bruno/ ''Giordano Bruno'' on Britannica]</ref><ref>[The Torture and Murder of Giordano Bruno For Publishing the Universe Is Infinite and There is Life on Other Planets The Torture and Murder of Giordano Bruno For Publishing the Universe Is Infinite and There is Life on Other Planets] by R. Gabriel Joseph in Cosmology.com</ref>
However, the user User:Skyerise (who previously accused me of editing just to "promote Islam", which as you can see, is patently false), keeps reverting the adding of information. The whole paragraph does not speak directly of astrolatry, but rather of changing philosophical and epistemological changes in the cosmology of western man, dethroning the geocentric view and thus the view of stars and planets as simple brilliant dots in the night sky. This is relevant, Giordano Bruno was the immediate predecessor of Gallileo and had a much more developed non-geocentric cosmology. So either add the info, or delete the whole section of "modern views" for """"not being about worship"""" Worship_of_heavenly_bodies#16th_century. 200.127.211.12 ( talk) 03:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
"I created/wrote the majority of this article." (implying some kind of right or status exists because of that)is listed as an example statement at WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. DefaultFree ( talk) 03:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
The Islam section is (once again) in a pretty bad condition and mostly consists of synthesis of material to further the author's own opinion. The sources hadrly speak about the veneration of heavenly bodies at all. There are sources, such as "The Arabic Influences on Early Modern Occult Philosophy" elaborating on the notion of veneration of the Classical planets and their cultural influences. Of course, they do not "worship" them in the direct sense, but did attribute seven planetary spirits to them. The "seven jinn king" in the jinn article may also fall rather into this article, since the seven planets are usually not "jinn" but "ruhaniyya" and inspired by the Hellenistic idea of living planets. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 13:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Worship of heavenly bodies article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 15 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Astral religion. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
article should probably reside at astrolatry, which is the unambiguous term. I had a hard time figuring out what "astro-theology" is supposed to mean, as the term is thrown around in various and partly confused contexts of the "religion vs science" debate in the 18th century. -- dab (𒁳) 12:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Can someone familiar with his work cite this? Or on second thought, wasn't he just a great compiler of such details? Has the comparison been drawn by others? Do we even need that paragraph? Skyerise ( talk) 15:15, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
A section should be added about the relationship with the planetary magic of Hermetic Qabala, along with other systems (eg. John Dee, other non-qabalistic systems of planetary magic). Thompson's book in Further reading addresses this, though mostly from the POV of James Lees so other sources would be needed. Iirc, Dennings & Phillips also covered this in their ogdoadic system. Skyerise ( talk) 13:43, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 October 2023 and 24 October 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dp20032003 ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Dp20032003 ( talk) 14:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
It seems that the academic use of "astrotheology" is unrelated to the way it is used here, as the worship of the stars (individually or together as the night sky), the planets, and other heavenly bodies as deities, or the association of deities with heavenly bodies
. It is allegedly a
WP:NPOV version of
astrolatry, which now redirects here. However the actual use of this term in academic literature, including literature included on the page, seems to be very different, see:
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |doi=
value (
help)...and plenty of others, I found all of these just doing a quick search for "astrotheology" on
Google Scholar. These all discuss the intersections of modern spaceflight and theology "to identify elements of religion and myth in discussions of space science and to prepare people for possible future developments" as Harrison puts it. It is not a term for "the worship of stars" or other heavenly bodies. The term appears to refer to a much narrower idea which really only encompasses what is covered here at
Astrotheology#Connections with other fields. Indeed, the earliest use of the term is by
William Derham, who argued the "demonstration of sacred truths" from "a survey of heavenly bodies"
according to the
original version of the page. The idea that astrotheology refers to the worship of astral bodies seems to originate with an unreliable source: Irvin, Jan; Rutajit, Andrew (2006-01-01). Astrotheology and Shamanism.
ISBN
978-1-58509-107-2. This books argues that Christianity is a pagan cult originally based on star-worship and the use of
psychedelics, and knowledge of these hidden roots are "concealed behind a campaign to prohibit access to entheogenic sacraments through a Pharmacratic Inquisition."
It seems that Astrotheology was previously merged into Astrolatry by @ Klbrain in 2018, see here. @ Liz appears to have moved Astrolatry to Astrotheology under the presumption that "astrolatry" does not reflect a WP:NPOV.
@ Liz: why is "astrolatry" not neutral? It seems to be used widely and there's a number of people who use it as a self-descriptor. Furthermore, it seems this alternative is not an improvement. Tryin to make a change :-/ 10:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against the original rationale, evidence has been provided for the "worship of heavenly bodies" as a widely used term, independent of "astral religion". This negates the primary move rationale. The discussion suggests that the worship of heavenly bodies is a wider phenomenon than astral religion, and as such the current title is appropriate. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph ( talk) 15:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Worship of heavenly bodies → Astral religion – the correct term for this is "astral religion", the current title is ad-hoc and made up by an editor who failed to follow process and open a proper move request. Skyerise ( talk) 12:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus ( talk) 11:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
fix[ing] it yourself instead of just talking about it. That is irrelevant, though. Tryin to make a change :-/ 12:43, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
[A]stral religions are astral cultsbut not all worship of heavenly bodies can properly be called cultic (which as you note is not the same as the popular meaning of the word "cult" but a technical term that does not encompass the entirety of religious phenomena.) As I noted about the source, it implies that the
worship of heavenly bodiesis the wider phenomenon being discussed. You know, looking at the page, this page borders on WP:SYNTH or even WP:OR -- I don't actually think that there is a "proper name" to be discussed here since it is mostly pieced together mentions of star and planet worship in various religions rather than something that is studied as a phenomenon in its own right. Tryin to make a change :-/ 18:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Worship of heavenly bodiesis not an ad hoc coining but something I came across scouring scholarly literature for astrotheology. Tryin to make a change :-/ 13:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
I included the next sourced information in the article:
The first philosopher and theologian to seriously advocate for life in other planets was [[Giordano Bruno]], who was burned alive for heresy due to this challenging the uniqueness of the Pope as God's sole representative.<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/biography/Giordano-Bruno/ ''Giordano Bruno'' on Britannica]</ref><ref>[The Torture and Murder of Giordano Bruno For Publishing the Universe Is Infinite and There is Life on Other Planets The Torture and Murder of Giordano Bruno For Publishing the Universe Is Infinite and There is Life on Other Planets] by R. Gabriel Joseph in Cosmology.com</ref>
However, the user User:Skyerise (who previously accused me of editing just to "promote Islam", which as you can see, is patently false), keeps reverting the adding of information. The whole paragraph does not speak directly of astrolatry, but rather of changing philosophical and epistemological changes in the cosmology of western man, dethroning the geocentric view and thus the view of stars and planets as simple brilliant dots in the night sky. This is relevant, Giordano Bruno was the immediate predecessor of Gallileo and had a much more developed non-geocentric cosmology. So either add the info, or delete the whole section of "modern views" for """"not being about worship"""" Worship_of_heavenly_bodies#16th_century. 200.127.211.12 ( talk) 03:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
"I created/wrote the majority of this article." (implying some kind of right or status exists because of that)is listed as an example statement at WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. DefaultFree ( talk) 03:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
The Islam section is (once again) in a pretty bad condition and mostly consists of synthesis of material to further the author's own opinion. The sources hadrly speak about the veneration of heavenly bodies at all. There are sources, such as "The Arabic Influences on Early Modern Occult Philosophy" elaborating on the notion of veneration of the Classical planets and their cultural influences. Of course, they do not "worship" them in the direct sense, but did attribute seven planetary spirits to them. The "seven jinn king" in the jinn article may also fall rather into this article, since the seven planets are usually not "jinn" but "ruhaniyya" and inspired by the Hellenistic idea of living planets. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 13:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)