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Apparently there's no citations for him being #1 in 1903 despite being the first man ever to win Wim/US in the same year, adding Davis Cup as well? USLTA nominated Whitman (clearly biased and bogus #1, but he needs to be listed of course). However, as it is, L.Doherty has no nominations for 1903, is that true? Ricardo 78.2.71.144 ( talk) 10:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I didn't suggest we/you should give 1903 Year-End #1 (British #1) to L.Doherty without citations. I would have expected a citation for him for sure. I only asked if it was a page error (citation missing) or there's actually been no citations for him. It's just my attempt to improve the article. If there's no citations, fine by me. It's all fine. We all know he's probably the true world number 1 for 1903 and definitely British #1 so he'll be treated unfairly if it turns out there's no citations for him and I have done nothing wrong by examining his case which is pretty obvious.
I finished my tables, does anyone want to see?
Ricardo
P.S. to Tennishistory I didn't say USLTA nominating Whitman was bogus nomination, nor did I imply they should have nominated L.Doherty instead. By "bogus" I meant this entire situation of having no citations for L.Doherty for 1903 which gives entire year to Whitman alone and that situation is bogus, L.Doherty missing from the rankings. I thought it would be clear, but perhaps my English isn't good enough. I don't like insults. 1877
93.137.12.87 (
talk)
19:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Response from Karoly Mazak regarding no British men's rankings in 1903: "I could not find a classification of British players in 1903 in Lawn Tennis and Badminton. They stopped making classifications regularly after 1899. We do not have rankings for 1900, 1901, and after 1905, either. They often lamented how difficult it was to compare the leading players because of the contradictory results." Tennishistory1877 ( talk) 10:39, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Editors of this page might be interested in two new ones I've started:
All the No.1 rankings on this page have been added there if a full ranking was given in the source.
It would be appreciated if any new rankings found and added to this article were also added to the top ten articles going forward.
Sod25 (
talk)
15:13, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
I think self-rankings should be listed here for completeness, but put in brackets and not counted towards the No. 1 column, same as we are doing for non-official rankings post-1978. Sod25 ( talk) 04:58, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
@Sod25...Agreed for Self rankings. For post 1978, why we have removed awards. Whether one calls it nonofficial, semiofficial or trivia, they are the facts and sources. In my opinion, if they are corroborating ATP or ITF, they need not be considered. But independent awards like World Sportsman of year must be considered. They have their own criteria and judgement. The objective in World No.1 page is about list PoY, if the sources are independent, consistent and credible in my opinion like SI, L'Equipe champions (of course Calendar year). Otherwise post 1978, this World no.1 page is as good as combining ATP#1 and ITF WC pages. That's all. I agree that adding nominees for PoY of SI, L'Equipe unless player wins the award. ITF itself is awarding WC. This makes more sense when ITF WC and ATP PoY are different or if many other sources consider a tie between two players or season is disrupted. I have already posted my comments in other threads but no comments so far. Krmohan ( talk) 16:56, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
To have one, all-encompassing table with sortable criteria?
That way you could avoid the hot issue here, you wouldn't count different rankings together, but it would enable the readers to observe them and compare them.
It's just so impractical to have almost 150 years period and no way of skimming through it.
I think without tables this page suffers a lot. It's good that at least you put pics there, kinda overview of top players throughout history, however I don't think it's OK to use ATP #1 as the only modern critera? We know modern #1 is comprised of 3 factors, ATP #1 (and PotY earlier) and also ITF WC. You have to respect ITF a lot more.
What that means in practice is that Connors is mentioned as the top player based on his 5 ATP #1 but Borg isn't there even though he has 5 ATP PoTY (vs 1 ATP PotY for Connors). I think you need to rethink it.
I would go either by maximal number for everyone (Connors 5 ATP #1, Borg 5 ATP PoTY, Nadal 5 by ATP) or if not that, then by undisputed years, Connors and Borg would be 2, Nadal 4. Whatever you choose. But choosing to go by ATP #1 alone is too narrow imo for this kind of page. That's my comment regarding the overview.
And regarding the table (I'm a big fan of tables), my proposal would be to have sortable table with all rankings, ATP #1, ATP PotY, ITF WC, Tingay, Collins, Tennis Magazines, old USLTA rankings etc.
Is that within rules?
Such table would merely count all that's already listed in the article and the counts would be kept separate, it would just enable the readers to get a sense of history. He could e.g. click on the "Tingay" to check how many times, per Tingay, Gonzales was #1 and how many times Rosewall was. Ricardo 93.137.9.169 ( talk) 11:04, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I do not know how many have agreed to addition of "Players" section to the page. It is strictly 'No' from my side. It is as good as having table for modern ranking. No matter how many times one can edit, this is aganist what was discussed. What is not applicable for pre-1978 is also not acceptable for post-1978, especially when there are more than one source and if one source (ATP) having two systems, one mechanical ranking based and other award based similar to ITF WC. With this addition, the essence of re-doing the page is lost in my opinion. Are we concerned about particular periods or tours ?? If anybody wants, they can be directed to List of ATP#1 ranked players, ITF World champion, ATP Awards page individually or selectively (see also). This kind of introducing "Players" does not fit into this page...It is unnecessary stuff drawing inference/interpretation. However, it is up to other editors...Cheers... Krmohan ( talk) 15:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Ok. Fine. But few reservations. I recommend only one gallery of No.1 ranked players. Need to be careful with wording like Modern rankings or Pre-ATP ranking especially when we are including ITF awards too. If it is unavoidable to make different gallerie s, it is better to identify with time periods only. I have also got reservations on using word "World" No.1 when some years for the players disputed...Why do not we use Annual or Year-end No. 1 instead of World No.1. As per ITF, this word should not be used. Further, we are not listing all No. 1 ranked players here (many players like Rafter etc..No. 1 for few weeks).... Krmohan ( talk) 17:24, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
No, it's not possible. Just in the past few weeks the following changes have been made (23 total):
Which shows how silly it would be to tally the No. 1s listed as if they were certain (and vindicating my strong opposition earlier). And there are many rankings still out there with potential new No. 1s. So having tables simply cannot be done here. I'm also against the gallery - it adds nothing except more room for dispute with respect to which players are chosen to be in the "Pre-ATP ranking No. 1s" section, and new readers will think: "Why don't I tally up the number of No. 1s for them, just like for the ATP No. 1s?", potentially leading to more edit warring and wasting of time. Sod25 ( talk) 18:50, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Ricardo here, I think you will eventually agree with me.
stats tables are just not possible- ForzaUV;
No matter how many times one can edit, this is aga[in]st what was discussed- Krmohan;
We are going over old ground here on something that has already been decided- Tennishistory1877.
Yes, I agree to remove the photo galleries section... Krmohan ( talk) 05:18, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Now, there is addition of statistics in place of galleries. This is also infructuous. It is better to leave the stuff as it is. There is no need of adding the data or stats to this article. As already discussed, this kind of data is not plausible for before 1973. The fact that there are multiple sources even after 1973, one can check the data from individual sources like ATP No.1, ITF WC, ATP Award of PoY...This article is to simply list the sources. Even though one can calculate how many times, each player is rated by each source, each source's No. 1 is different from the other. One can not designate anybody World No. 1 even if multiple sources attributing to one player. So, any kind of data, stats leading to this type of conclusion is infructuous. If there is nothing of this sort in this page, then objective of the page is understood and self explanatory in my opinion. I recommend for not adding stats etc to this page further, which was already discussed. Hope there would be full agreement from other editors also on this. Krmohan ( talk) 12:34, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
This article cites two different editions of Collins' encyclopedia (1994, 1997) and two editions of Collins' History of Tennis (2010, 2016), so I hope the citations get updated to refer to only one edition of them. Maybe Tennisedu or Tennishistory1877 has one of the editions? That would be appreciated. ForzaUV ( talk) 19:08, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
It seems to me that since the ATP replaced the average system in 1990, the ATP Player of the Year award has been always given to the Year-end No. 1, but the article claims this has been the case only since 2000, how true is that statement? ForzaUV ( talk) 19:08, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
ATP [...] will present Roger Federer with its 2004 Player of the Year Award that honors the winner of the INDESIT ATP Race[4]. The 2000 Player of the Year award announcement article says:
Gustavo Kuerten, who finished as No. 1 player on the inaugural ATP Champions Race, was named the ATP Player of the Year for 2000 today at the Tennis Masters Series Indian Wells[5] - extremely close to directly linking them, but not quite. Sod25 ( talk) 00:14, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
There should be some reference to the 1959 Anderson ranking, even if we do not accept it as an independent ranking. It represents an endorsement of the Ampol list and therefore an opinion from Anderson as to which Kramer ranking, of which there were two, should be accepted as the official ranking. That constitutes an opinion by Anderson, surely as worthy of inclusion as many of the throwaway references to "top player" we have also included here. Anderson in this context was disagreeing with the Sedgman opinion, and that is surely as significant a statement as the Sedgman opinion. Endorsing an existing list constitutes an opinion of a ranking, which we accept here in other references in this article. I will suggest a rewording of the reference to Anderson's opinion. Anderson stated that Kramer established a point system "to decide the best players in the world...Lew finished ahead of Pancho." That is a clear opinion by Anderson. Tennisedu ( talk) 16:15, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Last year Kramer established a point system to decide the best players in the world. We played 14 tournaments and got seven points for first, four for second, three for third, two for fourth and one for fifth and sixth place. After the year's play, Lew finished ahead of Pancho. The final ranking was Lew, 1; Pancho, 2; Kenny Rosewall, 3; Sedg, 4; Trab, 5; myself, 6; Segoo, 7; and Coop, 8.constitutes a new ranking by Anderson himself. It is clear to me and Tennishistory1877 that it doesn't. Sod25 ( talk) 06:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Apparently there's no citations for him being #1 in 1903 despite being the first man ever to win Wim/US in the same year, adding Davis Cup as well? USLTA nominated Whitman (clearly biased and bogus #1, but he needs to be listed of course). However, as it is, L.Doherty has no nominations for 1903, is that true? Ricardo 78.2.71.144 ( talk) 10:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I didn't suggest we/you should give 1903 Year-End #1 (British #1) to L.Doherty without citations. I would have expected a citation for him for sure. I only asked if it was a page error (citation missing) or there's actually been no citations for him. It's just my attempt to improve the article. If there's no citations, fine by me. It's all fine. We all know he's probably the true world number 1 for 1903 and definitely British #1 so he'll be treated unfairly if it turns out there's no citations for him and I have done nothing wrong by examining his case which is pretty obvious.
I finished my tables, does anyone want to see?
Ricardo
P.S. to Tennishistory I didn't say USLTA nominating Whitman was bogus nomination, nor did I imply they should have nominated L.Doherty instead. By "bogus" I meant this entire situation of having no citations for L.Doherty for 1903 which gives entire year to Whitman alone and that situation is bogus, L.Doherty missing from the rankings. I thought it would be clear, but perhaps my English isn't good enough. I don't like insults. 1877
93.137.12.87 (
talk)
19:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Response from Karoly Mazak regarding no British men's rankings in 1903: "I could not find a classification of British players in 1903 in Lawn Tennis and Badminton. They stopped making classifications regularly after 1899. We do not have rankings for 1900, 1901, and after 1905, either. They often lamented how difficult it was to compare the leading players because of the contradictory results." Tennishistory1877 ( talk) 10:39, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Editors of this page might be interested in two new ones I've started:
All the No.1 rankings on this page have been added there if a full ranking was given in the source.
It would be appreciated if any new rankings found and added to this article were also added to the top ten articles going forward.
Sod25 (
talk)
15:13, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
I think self-rankings should be listed here for completeness, but put in brackets and not counted towards the No. 1 column, same as we are doing for non-official rankings post-1978. Sod25 ( talk) 04:58, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
@Sod25...Agreed for Self rankings. For post 1978, why we have removed awards. Whether one calls it nonofficial, semiofficial or trivia, they are the facts and sources. In my opinion, if they are corroborating ATP or ITF, they need not be considered. But independent awards like World Sportsman of year must be considered. They have their own criteria and judgement. The objective in World No.1 page is about list PoY, if the sources are independent, consistent and credible in my opinion like SI, L'Equipe champions (of course Calendar year). Otherwise post 1978, this World no.1 page is as good as combining ATP#1 and ITF WC pages. That's all. I agree that adding nominees for PoY of SI, L'Equipe unless player wins the award. ITF itself is awarding WC. This makes more sense when ITF WC and ATP PoY are different or if many other sources consider a tie between two players or season is disrupted. I have already posted my comments in other threads but no comments so far. Krmohan ( talk) 16:56, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
To have one, all-encompassing table with sortable criteria?
That way you could avoid the hot issue here, you wouldn't count different rankings together, but it would enable the readers to observe them and compare them.
It's just so impractical to have almost 150 years period and no way of skimming through it.
I think without tables this page suffers a lot. It's good that at least you put pics there, kinda overview of top players throughout history, however I don't think it's OK to use ATP #1 as the only modern critera? We know modern #1 is comprised of 3 factors, ATP #1 (and PotY earlier) and also ITF WC. You have to respect ITF a lot more.
What that means in practice is that Connors is mentioned as the top player based on his 5 ATP #1 but Borg isn't there even though he has 5 ATP PoTY (vs 1 ATP PotY for Connors). I think you need to rethink it.
I would go either by maximal number for everyone (Connors 5 ATP #1, Borg 5 ATP PoTY, Nadal 5 by ATP) or if not that, then by undisputed years, Connors and Borg would be 2, Nadal 4. Whatever you choose. But choosing to go by ATP #1 alone is too narrow imo for this kind of page. That's my comment regarding the overview.
And regarding the table (I'm a big fan of tables), my proposal would be to have sortable table with all rankings, ATP #1, ATP PotY, ITF WC, Tingay, Collins, Tennis Magazines, old USLTA rankings etc.
Is that within rules?
Such table would merely count all that's already listed in the article and the counts would be kept separate, it would just enable the readers to get a sense of history. He could e.g. click on the "Tingay" to check how many times, per Tingay, Gonzales was #1 and how many times Rosewall was. Ricardo 93.137.9.169 ( talk) 11:04, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I do not know how many have agreed to addition of "Players" section to the page. It is strictly 'No' from my side. It is as good as having table for modern ranking. No matter how many times one can edit, this is aganist what was discussed. What is not applicable for pre-1978 is also not acceptable for post-1978, especially when there are more than one source and if one source (ATP) having two systems, one mechanical ranking based and other award based similar to ITF WC. With this addition, the essence of re-doing the page is lost in my opinion. Are we concerned about particular periods or tours ?? If anybody wants, they can be directed to List of ATP#1 ranked players, ITF World champion, ATP Awards page individually or selectively (see also). This kind of introducing "Players" does not fit into this page...It is unnecessary stuff drawing inference/interpretation. However, it is up to other editors...Cheers... Krmohan ( talk) 15:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Ok. Fine. But few reservations. I recommend only one gallery of No.1 ranked players. Need to be careful with wording like Modern rankings or Pre-ATP ranking especially when we are including ITF awards too. If it is unavoidable to make different gallerie s, it is better to identify with time periods only. I have also got reservations on using word "World" No.1 when some years for the players disputed...Why do not we use Annual or Year-end No. 1 instead of World No.1. As per ITF, this word should not be used. Further, we are not listing all No. 1 ranked players here (many players like Rafter etc..No. 1 for few weeks).... Krmohan ( talk) 17:24, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
No, it's not possible. Just in the past few weeks the following changes have been made (23 total):
Which shows how silly it would be to tally the No. 1s listed as if they were certain (and vindicating my strong opposition earlier). And there are many rankings still out there with potential new No. 1s. So having tables simply cannot be done here. I'm also against the gallery - it adds nothing except more room for dispute with respect to which players are chosen to be in the "Pre-ATP ranking No. 1s" section, and new readers will think: "Why don't I tally up the number of No. 1s for them, just like for the ATP No. 1s?", potentially leading to more edit warring and wasting of time. Sod25 ( talk) 18:50, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Ricardo here, I think you will eventually agree with me.
stats tables are just not possible- ForzaUV;
No matter how many times one can edit, this is aga[in]st what was discussed- Krmohan;
We are going over old ground here on something that has already been decided- Tennishistory1877.
Yes, I agree to remove the photo galleries section... Krmohan ( talk) 05:18, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Now, there is addition of statistics in place of galleries. This is also infructuous. It is better to leave the stuff as it is. There is no need of adding the data or stats to this article. As already discussed, this kind of data is not plausible for before 1973. The fact that there are multiple sources even after 1973, one can check the data from individual sources like ATP No.1, ITF WC, ATP Award of PoY...This article is to simply list the sources. Even though one can calculate how many times, each player is rated by each source, each source's No. 1 is different from the other. One can not designate anybody World No. 1 even if multiple sources attributing to one player. So, any kind of data, stats leading to this type of conclusion is infructuous. If there is nothing of this sort in this page, then objective of the page is understood and self explanatory in my opinion. I recommend for not adding stats etc to this page further, which was already discussed. Hope there would be full agreement from other editors also on this. Krmohan ( talk) 12:34, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
This article cites two different editions of Collins' encyclopedia (1994, 1997) and two editions of Collins' History of Tennis (2010, 2016), so I hope the citations get updated to refer to only one edition of them. Maybe Tennisedu or Tennishistory1877 has one of the editions? That would be appreciated. ForzaUV ( talk) 19:08, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
It seems to me that since the ATP replaced the average system in 1990, the ATP Player of the Year award has been always given to the Year-end No. 1, but the article claims this has been the case only since 2000, how true is that statement? ForzaUV ( talk) 19:08, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
ATP [...] will present Roger Federer with its 2004 Player of the Year Award that honors the winner of the INDESIT ATP Race[4]. The 2000 Player of the Year award announcement article says:
Gustavo Kuerten, who finished as No. 1 player on the inaugural ATP Champions Race, was named the ATP Player of the Year for 2000 today at the Tennis Masters Series Indian Wells[5] - extremely close to directly linking them, but not quite. Sod25 ( talk) 00:14, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
There should be some reference to the 1959 Anderson ranking, even if we do not accept it as an independent ranking. It represents an endorsement of the Ampol list and therefore an opinion from Anderson as to which Kramer ranking, of which there were two, should be accepted as the official ranking. That constitutes an opinion by Anderson, surely as worthy of inclusion as many of the throwaway references to "top player" we have also included here. Anderson in this context was disagreeing with the Sedgman opinion, and that is surely as significant a statement as the Sedgman opinion. Endorsing an existing list constitutes an opinion of a ranking, which we accept here in other references in this article. I will suggest a rewording of the reference to Anderson's opinion. Anderson stated that Kramer established a point system "to decide the best players in the world...Lew finished ahead of Pancho." That is a clear opinion by Anderson. Tennisedu ( talk) 16:15, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Last year Kramer established a point system to decide the best players in the world. We played 14 tournaments and got seven points for first, four for second, three for third, two for fourth and one for fifth and sixth place. After the year's play, Lew finished ahead of Pancho. The final ranking was Lew, 1; Pancho, 2; Kenny Rosewall, 3; Sedg, 4; Trab, 5; myself, 6; Segoo, 7; and Coop, 8.constitutes a new ranking by Anderson himself. It is clear to me and Tennishistory1877 that it doesn't. Sod25 ( talk) 06:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC)