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The list of main Allies in the infobox has been created in a strange way. Of course USSR, UK and USA undoubtedly belong on this list, I can hardly understand (more frankly: I can't understand) the reasons for including France and excluding Poland, Canada and other countries. I.e. what makes France a "more main" ally than Poland? Sir Wolf 16:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
De Gaulle
How can he be considered as significant as Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill or Chiang? He was a figurehead. He never had operational control of Free French Forces, he barely even had a division until the end of 1942 (by which time the tide of war was turning anyway). He wasn't even a head of government until late 1944.
Grant |
Talk
19:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's not make any alterations to the infobox until we have a rough agreement here.
IMO, it seems we have two potential solutions: either list France and De Gaulle (I don't think Paul Reynaud, Édouard Daladier, Philippe Pétain or any of the Vichy France prime ministers would be satisfactory), or don't list France at all. I'm personally in favor of the latter. Oberiko 22:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Statistics comparing total personnel are problematic, because there weren't single, official, distinct Polish or French military forces after their respective defeats by Germany.
However, comparisons can be made using military deaths (from World War II casualties).
China experienced 3,800,000 Nationalist/Communist military dead (including 400,000 taken POW) in 1937-45.
French (Allied) war dead = 210,000: 150,000 regular forces (1939-40, 92,000 + FF 1940-45, 58,000) + 20,000 French resistance + 40,000 French POWs in Germany.
Polish military deaths = about 160,000 ("66,300 in the 1939 Invasion of Poland, 10,000 in Polish Armed Forces in the West, 24,700 with the 1st Polish Army alongside the USSR and 60,000 Polish resistance movement fighters".) I guess that includes those who fought against the USSR in 1939. But I'm not sure if Polish POW deaths are included.
For India (inc present day Pakistan and Bangladesh), total military deaths were 87,040.
In WW2, the total number of Australian and Canadian veterans was about one million each, with 40,000 and 45,000 dead respectively. Significant contributions relative to their populations (just under seven million and just over 11 million respectively).
Needless to say, death and suffering is not proof of military might and the personnel of many other Allied suffered in similar proportions to the French resistance and POWs, especially in Asia.
In addition, the Free French contribution was clearly much less than that of Poles, Indians or Australians for three long years in 1940-43. (During which time the Canadian Army was mostly left champing at the bit and later suffered high casualties in Italy and NW Europe.) Grant | Talk 16:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
So, we seem to have a lot of material as to why France shouldn't be included, anyone want to put forward some reasons why they should (more so then India, Poland and Canada)? Oberiko 23:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
This does raise some interesting questions, doesn't it? There are a few points I'd like to make. First and most importantly, we're in danger of slipping into anachronism here. It's not how we perceive France at 60 years' distance that matters, it's how France was perceived at the time: was it treated as one of the Great Powers or not? I think the evidence on this point is clear. If you look at the various agreements that ended the fighting and began the occupation of Germany, France was clearly treated as one of the four principal Allies: see for instance the German Instrument of Surrender and the Berlin Declaration (1945). None of the other Allied countries were included in these key agreements. On this basis alone, we must include France in the major Allies box. Second, France was a co-equal with Britain during the period between the fall of Poland and the Battle of France; it played an absolutely central role. Third, with regard to Oberiko's point above, what's not been mentioned is the fact that while metropolitan France may have been occupied, much of the overseas French empire (with a vastly greater area and population than France itself) went over to the Free French and was used to aid the continuing French war effort - there was never a point at which the French government lost all of its territory, as happened with Poland or Czechoslovakia, for instance. And fourth, I noticed the mentions of India, Australia, Canada etc - they're usually treated as being in the British column, since some were under the direct command of Britain - as in the case of India - while others like Australia (if I remember rightly) were effectively under operational control for much of the war. -- ChrisO 01:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
For the inclusion of France and not in a mood to argue this over and over again. Note, don't forget the Saar Offensive of 1939 (minor indeed but still some action, particularly compared to Norway) and the Italian Campaign 1943/44 to France's credit. Back on leaders themselves it should not be forgotten that de Gaulle was already minister in the 1940 cabinet and on official mission to the UK at the Armistice and has a good claim for continuity. And I'm far from a Gaulist.-- Caranorn 15:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there anyone else who wants to venture a contribution to the discussion? If not, I'd like to take it to a straw poll to further gauge the level of consensus. Oberiko 18:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is all original research. Never mind interpreting the facts about various countries' participation; never mind even sourcing those facts.
Which countries do the important historians list as major participants or "great powers" of World War II? That's the only question which needs be answered to settle this. Pull out your big history books and see what they say. — Michael Z. 2007-09-19 04:41 Z
Below is a vote on whether to use "Allies" and "Axis" or listing of the major participants in the "combatants" section of the war info box. The first option will be that the only listed combatants will be the "Allies" and the "Axis" with links to the appropriate articles. The second option will indicate a preference for major participants instead of only Allies and Axis.
Each Wikipedian is allowed one vote in each poll. For the sake of clarity, discussion and opinions beyond simple name-tagging are requested to not to be added to the voting section, but instead to an attached "comments" section.
Each poll will have a duration of one week unless otherwise specified.
The following applies if, and only if, the nationalities option wins in the vote
Should the second option win in the first round, it is suggested that discussions commence to attempt consensus on three (with possibly more added later) issues prior to discussion the metrics of individual nations:
Note
WP:!VOTE states that polling is not an alternative to consensus. This poll is initiated by myself (
Oberiko) as it appears to me that consensus is not a possibility in the matter. The results are, therefore, not binding. This is more of a means to gauge editor directions.
Support Allies / Axis
Support Nationality listings
Comments
I've previously been for nationality listings, but now I vote for Allies/Axis only. Why? Well, for starters, we will avoid a lot of controversies and continued "wheelgrinding" on who, why and how to sort etc. Let's delegate the matter to the articles
Allies and
Axis -
"they knew what they were into, I say: Let 'em crash!" :). Regards, --
Dna-Dennis
03:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Presumably if Allies/Axis only is settled on, the 'Commanders' info box will become irrelevant, or will the discussion simply leak over into that section? -- FactotEm 12:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to throw a ball out there, what if we listed the combatants as:
This would encompass everyone (sans Vichy France, Iran, Iraq, Yugoslavia and probably a few other small nations) and keep the who-was-fighting-who slightly more accurate (SU didn't fight the AA until the end, China never fought the EA etc.). The main problem I can see is that the terms European Axis and Asian Axis aren't often used (though I have found them in a few sources). Thoughts? Oberiko 13:10, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Having watched several previous discussions on this, it is clear to me that the only thing people can agree on is that it was the Allies against the Axis. If we decided "no countries" then the Infobox should become stable. If we include a list of countries, it will never stabilize as there will never be agreement. There are no clear, universally accepted criteria for who should and should not be listed. Anyone favouring the inclusion of one country, or the exclusion of another, will be able to pick the criteria that support their position. That complexity suggests that a discussion of who were the major players is best left for the Allies and Axis articles. - Eron Talk 16:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Seems like pretty strong consensus to change to just Allies and Axis. I'm going to make the change. Oberiko 17:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Currently the table suggests that the USSR was the first of the Allies - and doesn't even mention Poland. I'd add the country that was the first to become an ally (Poland) and move USSR somewhere down the list. Otherwise an uninformed reader might think that the WWII started between USSR and Germany, and other joined later. Sure, to some extent that's true that the war was started by USSR and Germany, but since we have USSR listed among the Allies... // Halibu tt 15:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I really don't see why it matters which nation is listed in what order. I mean, it's not like we said ok, the ones at the top did the most, and the ones at the bottom did the least. I'm fine with alphabetical order. -- LtWinters 15:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
That the Russian armies should stand on this line [i.e. in the middle of Poland] was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace. At any rate, the line is there, and an Eastern Front has been created which Nazi Germany does not dare assail (Winston Churchill, September 1939).
Grant | Talk 10:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I don't think we're going to be able to get it by contribution / importance (no real way to decide between U.K., U.S. and Soviets, different metrics / authors support each), and it looks like alphabetical doesn't have overwhelming support, so why don't we do it by the date each of the Big Three powers officially declared war on the Axis Powers, then put China, then France? Oberiko 13:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to have to find the books mentioned in that article on Americans massacring Japanese soldiers. My understanding, from numerous books on the subject, was that Japanese soldiers didn't even try to surrender, but instead took great pride in honorable death in battle. My understanding is that they were socialized to view surrender as cowardice, which also allowed them to treat American POWs as dishonorable and only worthy of torture or painful deaths.
In speaking about whether a murderer of 10 or 20 is more or less of a murderer, you're missing the point. When you look at the systematic murder of many thousands, sanctioned by the military leadership or of hundreds by men who faced justice administered against them by their own military for their crimes, we're talking about completely different issues. -- Habap 19:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can we change the United Kingdom in the infobox to the British Commonwealth? Oberiko 13:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Myths abound...
Oberiko, the vast majority of Australian forces were under MacArthur's South West Pacific Area (command) from March 1942. An absolute majority of his forces were Australian for about a year. Anyway, the issue of which person of what nationality commanded which forces is neither here nor there, as they were all joint Allied supreme commands and it would have been counter=productive to have separate national operational commands. As for being "ordered about by Churchill", well he tried, but didn't always succeed. For example, the attempted diversion of the Australian I Corps to Burma in 1942, when it was on route to the Dutch East Indies (not Australia, as is sometimes stated), which was thwarted by the Australian government. (Even though it didn't have to, and was facing possible invasion, in the spirit of compromise two brigades were detached to garrison Ceylon for six months.) After the 9th Division left North Africa in January 1943, the only Australian units still under British command were several RAAF squadrons based in the UK and Mediterranean, and some destroyers and corvettes with the British Eastern Fleet.
Commander Zulu, in many cases, they weren't using the same equipment or uniforms and these are meaningless facts anyway.
The US, USSR and China also "co-ordinated their military operations" with the UK.
Your reasoning about Britain's declaration is incorrect. The Dominions were voluntarily supporting the UK in an hour of need. Eire, which was a Dominion at the time, never declared war and the issue of whether to declare war caused a purely internal political crisis in South Africa, culminating in the fall of a Prime Minister ( J.B.M. Hertzog).
Grant | Talk 10:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It was the British Commonwealth at the time, but the article is Commonwealth of Nations. Thus, please use a direct link to it, this way: [[Commonwealth of Nations|British Commonwealth]]. It really saves effort in cleaning up the links. Hu 10:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that our discussions are all about either the image or the combatants. Would anyone object to having those discussions somewhat segregated from other discussions? ie. Template talk:WW2InfoBox\image and Template talk:WW2InfoBox\combatants? There certainly does seem to be enough discussion on the topics to warrant it, and it would make archiving much easier and more meaningful. Oberiko 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that listing the main combatants in the infobox would be a good idea as an infobox is supposed to give a brief overview of the subject of the article. The way it is formatted now ( Allies_of_World_War_II) & ( Axis_powers_of_World_War_II) is confusing and unclear and these pages do not immediately list the main combatants. This revision is a lot better than what is currently on right now as someone who has little knowledge of WWII can immediately know the main combatants. The other reason why we should be listing the main countries involved is because it would make the page more consistent with the rest of the articles on Wikipedia that uses an infobox for the wars (Ex: WWI, Vietnam War, Napoleonic Wars, etc.) since they list out the countries. Anybody else think this change would be good? -- Hdt83 Chat 05:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the start date to "Late 1930s" for a few reasons:
Thus, with multiple sources stating different things, I think this would be the safer bet, especially since the page itself says that WWII is an amalgamation of the two conflicts in Europe and Asia. Oberiko ( talk) 15:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the start date back to September 3, 1939 as this is the generally accepted date for when the war became a global one, and not a regional one. If anyone feels this makes the page too Eurocentric, they should try and remember that World War 2 was primarily a (Eastern) European conflict, and ignores the fact that the Asian and Pacific Theaters did not become a part of the larger conflict until December 1941. This deplorable state of this, vitally important, article as a result of this change reflects badly on Wikipedia as a whole. I note that a Mediation Cabal was set up to discuss this issue, and I also note that at the time of writing that that discussion has stalled for over a month, meaning that the participants have long since released themselves of obligation towards this matter. ObsessiveMathsFreak ( talk) 23:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The list of main Allies in the infobox has been created in a strange way. Of course USSR, UK and USA undoubtedly belong on this list, I can hardly understand (more frankly: I can't understand) the reasons for including France and excluding Poland, Canada and other countries. I.e. what makes France a "more main" ally than Poland? Sir Wolf 16:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
De Gaulle
How can he be considered as significant as Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill or Chiang? He was a figurehead. He never had operational control of Free French Forces, he barely even had a division until the end of 1942 (by which time the tide of war was turning anyway). He wasn't even a head of government until late 1944.
Grant |
Talk
19:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's not make any alterations to the infobox until we have a rough agreement here.
IMO, it seems we have two potential solutions: either list France and De Gaulle (I don't think Paul Reynaud, Édouard Daladier, Philippe Pétain or any of the Vichy France prime ministers would be satisfactory), or don't list France at all. I'm personally in favor of the latter. Oberiko 22:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Statistics comparing total personnel are problematic, because there weren't single, official, distinct Polish or French military forces after their respective defeats by Germany.
However, comparisons can be made using military deaths (from World War II casualties).
China experienced 3,800,000 Nationalist/Communist military dead (including 400,000 taken POW) in 1937-45.
French (Allied) war dead = 210,000: 150,000 regular forces (1939-40, 92,000 + FF 1940-45, 58,000) + 20,000 French resistance + 40,000 French POWs in Germany.
Polish military deaths = about 160,000 ("66,300 in the 1939 Invasion of Poland, 10,000 in Polish Armed Forces in the West, 24,700 with the 1st Polish Army alongside the USSR and 60,000 Polish resistance movement fighters".) I guess that includes those who fought against the USSR in 1939. But I'm not sure if Polish POW deaths are included.
For India (inc present day Pakistan and Bangladesh), total military deaths were 87,040.
In WW2, the total number of Australian and Canadian veterans was about one million each, with 40,000 and 45,000 dead respectively. Significant contributions relative to their populations (just under seven million and just over 11 million respectively).
Needless to say, death and suffering is not proof of military might and the personnel of many other Allied suffered in similar proportions to the French resistance and POWs, especially in Asia.
In addition, the Free French contribution was clearly much less than that of Poles, Indians or Australians for three long years in 1940-43. (During which time the Canadian Army was mostly left champing at the bit and later suffered high casualties in Italy and NW Europe.) Grant | Talk 16:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
So, we seem to have a lot of material as to why France shouldn't be included, anyone want to put forward some reasons why they should (more so then India, Poland and Canada)? Oberiko 23:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
This does raise some interesting questions, doesn't it? There are a few points I'd like to make. First and most importantly, we're in danger of slipping into anachronism here. It's not how we perceive France at 60 years' distance that matters, it's how France was perceived at the time: was it treated as one of the Great Powers or not? I think the evidence on this point is clear. If you look at the various agreements that ended the fighting and began the occupation of Germany, France was clearly treated as one of the four principal Allies: see for instance the German Instrument of Surrender and the Berlin Declaration (1945). None of the other Allied countries were included in these key agreements. On this basis alone, we must include France in the major Allies box. Second, France was a co-equal with Britain during the period between the fall of Poland and the Battle of France; it played an absolutely central role. Third, with regard to Oberiko's point above, what's not been mentioned is the fact that while metropolitan France may have been occupied, much of the overseas French empire (with a vastly greater area and population than France itself) went over to the Free French and was used to aid the continuing French war effort - there was never a point at which the French government lost all of its territory, as happened with Poland or Czechoslovakia, for instance. And fourth, I noticed the mentions of India, Australia, Canada etc - they're usually treated as being in the British column, since some were under the direct command of Britain - as in the case of India - while others like Australia (if I remember rightly) were effectively under operational control for much of the war. -- ChrisO 01:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
For the inclusion of France and not in a mood to argue this over and over again. Note, don't forget the Saar Offensive of 1939 (minor indeed but still some action, particularly compared to Norway) and the Italian Campaign 1943/44 to France's credit. Back on leaders themselves it should not be forgotten that de Gaulle was already minister in the 1940 cabinet and on official mission to the UK at the Armistice and has a good claim for continuity. And I'm far from a Gaulist.-- Caranorn 15:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there anyone else who wants to venture a contribution to the discussion? If not, I'd like to take it to a straw poll to further gauge the level of consensus. Oberiko 18:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is all original research. Never mind interpreting the facts about various countries' participation; never mind even sourcing those facts.
Which countries do the important historians list as major participants or "great powers" of World War II? That's the only question which needs be answered to settle this. Pull out your big history books and see what they say. — Michael Z. 2007-09-19 04:41 Z
Below is a vote on whether to use "Allies" and "Axis" or listing of the major participants in the "combatants" section of the war info box. The first option will be that the only listed combatants will be the "Allies" and the "Axis" with links to the appropriate articles. The second option will indicate a preference for major participants instead of only Allies and Axis.
Each Wikipedian is allowed one vote in each poll. For the sake of clarity, discussion and opinions beyond simple name-tagging are requested to not to be added to the voting section, but instead to an attached "comments" section.
Each poll will have a duration of one week unless otherwise specified.
The following applies if, and only if, the nationalities option wins in the vote
Should the second option win in the first round, it is suggested that discussions commence to attempt consensus on three (with possibly more added later) issues prior to discussion the metrics of individual nations:
Note
WP:!VOTE states that polling is not an alternative to consensus. This poll is initiated by myself (
Oberiko) as it appears to me that consensus is not a possibility in the matter. The results are, therefore, not binding. This is more of a means to gauge editor directions.
Support Allies / Axis
Support Nationality listings
Comments
I've previously been for nationality listings, but now I vote for Allies/Axis only. Why? Well, for starters, we will avoid a lot of controversies and continued "wheelgrinding" on who, why and how to sort etc. Let's delegate the matter to the articles
Allies and
Axis -
"they knew what they were into, I say: Let 'em crash!" :). Regards, --
Dna-Dennis
03:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Presumably if Allies/Axis only is settled on, the 'Commanders' info box will become irrelevant, or will the discussion simply leak over into that section? -- FactotEm 12:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to throw a ball out there, what if we listed the combatants as:
This would encompass everyone (sans Vichy France, Iran, Iraq, Yugoslavia and probably a few other small nations) and keep the who-was-fighting-who slightly more accurate (SU didn't fight the AA until the end, China never fought the EA etc.). The main problem I can see is that the terms European Axis and Asian Axis aren't often used (though I have found them in a few sources). Thoughts? Oberiko 13:10, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Having watched several previous discussions on this, it is clear to me that the only thing people can agree on is that it was the Allies against the Axis. If we decided "no countries" then the Infobox should become stable. If we include a list of countries, it will never stabilize as there will never be agreement. There are no clear, universally accepted criteria for who should and should not be listed. Anyone favouring the inclusion of one country, or the exclusion of another, will be able to pick the criteria that support their position. That complexity suggests that a discussion of who were the major players is best left for the Allies and Axis articles. - Eron Talk 16:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Seems like pretty strong consensus to change to just Allies and Axis. I'm going to make the change. Oberiko 17:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Currently the table suggests that the USSR was the first of the Allies - and doesn't even mention Poland. I'd add the country that was the first to become an ally (Poland) and move USSR somewhere down the list. Otherwise an uninformed reader might think that the WWII started between USSR and Germany, and other joined later. Sure, to some extent that's true that the war was started by USSR and Germany, but since we have USSR listed among the Allies... // Halibu tt 15:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I really don't see why it matters which nation is listed in what order. I mean, it's not like we said ok, the ones at the top did the most, and the ones at the bottom did the least. I'm fine with alphabetical order. -- LtWinters 15:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
That the Russian armies should stand on this line [i.e. in the middle of Poland] was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace. At any rate, the line is there, and an Eastern Front has been created which Nazi Germany does not dare assail (Winston Churchill, September 1939).
Grant | Talk 10:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I don't think we're going to be able to get it by contribution / importance (no real way to decide between U.K., U.S. and Soviets, different metrics / authors support each), and it looks like alphabetical doesn't have overwhelming support, so why don't we do it by the date each of the Big Three powers officially declared war on the Axis Powers, then put China, then France? Oberiko 13:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to have to find the books mentioned in that article on Americans massacring Japanese soldiers. My understanding, from numerous books on the subject, was that Japanese soldiers didn't even try to surrender, but instead took great pride in honorable death in battle. My understanding is that they were socialized to view surrender as cowardice, which also allowed them to treat American POWs as dishonorable and only worthy of torture or painful deaths.
In speaking about whether a murderer of 10 or 20 is more or less of a murderer, you're missing the point. When you look at the systematic murder of many thousands, sanctioned by the military leadership or of hundreds by men who faced justice administered against them by their own military for their crimes, we're talking about completely different issues. -- Habap 19:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can we change the United Kingdom in the infobox to the British Commonwealth? Oberiko 13:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Myths abound...
Oberiko, the vast majority of Australian forces were under MacArthur's South West Pacific Area (command) from March 1942. An absolute majority of his forces were Australian for about a year. Anyway, the issue of which person of what nationality commanded which forces is neither here nor there, as they were all joint Allied supreme commands and it would have been counter=productive to have separate national operational commands. As for being "ordered about by Churchill", well he tried, but didn't always succeed. For example, the attempted diversion of the Australian I Corps to Burma in 1942, when it was on route to the Dutch East Indies (not Australia, as is sometimes stated), which was thwarted by the Australian government. (Even though it didn't have to, and was facing possible invasion, in the spirit of compromise two brigades were detached to garrison Ceylon for six months.) After the 9th Division left North Africa in January 1943, the only Australian units still under British command were several RAAF squadrons based in the UK and Mediterranean, and some destroyers and corvettes with the British Eastern Fleet.
Commander Zulu, in many cases, they weren't using the same equipment or uniforms and these are meaningless facts anyway.
The US, USSR and China also "co-ordinated their military operations" with the UK.
Your reasoning about Britain's declaration is incorrect. The Dominions were voluntarily supporting the UK in an hour of need. Eire, which was a Dominion at the time, never declared war and the issue of whether to declare war caused a purely internal political crisis in South Africa, culminating in the fall of a Prime Minister ( J.B.M. Hertzog).
Grant | Talk 10:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It was the British Commonwealth at the time, but the article is Commonwealth of Nations. Thus, please use a direct link to it, this way: [[Commonwealth of Nations|British Commonwealth]]. It really saves effort in cleaning up the links. Hu 10:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that our discussions are all about either the image or the combatants. Would anyone object to having those discussions somewhat segregated from other discussions? ie. Template talk:WW2InfoBox\image and Template talk:WW2InfoBox\combatants? There certainly does seem to be enough discussion on the topics to warrant it, and it would make archiving much easier and more meaningful. Oberiko 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that listing the main combatants in the infobox would be a good idea as an infobox is supposed to give a brief overview of the subject of the article. The way it is formatted now ( Allies_of_World_War_II) & ( Axis_powers_of_World_War_II) is confusing and unclear and these pages do not immediately list the main combatants. This revision is a lot better than what is currently on right now as someone who has little knowledge of WWII can immediately know the main combatants. The other reason why we should be listing the main countries involved is because it would make the page more consistent with the rest of the articles on Wikipedia that uses an infobox for the wars (Ex: WWI, Vietnam War, Napoleonic Wars, etc.) since they list out the countries. Anybody else think this change would be good? -- Hdt83 Chat 05:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the start date to "Late 1930s" for a few reasons:
Thus, with multiple sources stating different things, I think this would be the safer bet, especially since the page itself says that WWII is an amalgamation of the two conflicts in Europe and Asia. Oberiko ( talk) 15:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the start date back to September 3, 1939 as this is the generally accepted date for when the war became a global one, and not a regional one. If anyone feels this makes the page too Eurocentric, they should try and remember that World War 2 was primarily a (Eastern) European conflict, and ignores the fact that the Asian and Pacific Theaters did not become a part of the larger conflict until December 1941. This deplorable state of this, vitally important, article as a result of this change reflects badly on Wikipedia as a whole. I note that a Mediation Cabal was set up to discuss this issue, and I also note that at the time of writing that that discussion has stalled for over a month, meaning that the participants have long since released themselves of obligation towards this matter. ObsessiveMathsFreak ( talk) 23:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)