This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The Battle of the Scheldt, is without a doubt one of the most significant battles on the Western front, but for some reason has been overlooked countless times by many historians. I just finished the article and some supporting documents on it. I think it is absolutely worth including in the main ww2 article, as without the supply lines, the allied defense during the Battle of the Bulge would have been sketchy at best.
All discussion and debate is welcomed here in terms of it's noteworthiness in this article, and on the talk page for the Battle of the Scheldt.
cheers. -- Oldsoul 4 July 2005 23:23 (UTC)
Right now it says in the second paragraph that the war:
... continued in Asia and the Pacific until (...) the Japanese surrender on September 2, 1945 (V-J Day).
but September 2 was only the day for the formal signing of the terms of surrender. The war is much more frequently said to have ended on August 15, when Japan accepted the terms of the Potsdam declaration and laid down her arms. And this day, August 15, is indeed the V-J day as it says in the V-J Day article. I was about to change the date, but thought I'd ask about it here first.
Shanes 02:10, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Make note of both, indicating which is which and why. -- User:naryathegreat | (talk) 00:16, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
Is there any information anywhere about the treaties Germany, Japan, and Italy signed ending the war? There is lots of stuff on the internet about the Treaty of Versailles, but not on the end of WWII. There needs to be something about this.
The current World War II article is very burdened. The war is a HUGE topic, and there are billions of details. Unfortunately I think too many of these details have been presented in the main article, and not enough is presented in orderly sub-articles. I have made a re-write of the article, aiming to present a concise and orderly picture of the war to a researcher, especially a novice to the war (because that's the point isn't it?). I have posted the current incarnation of it on my user page user page and would appreciate some commentary on whether it represents an improvement over the current article or not. I have not completed adding all of the links, and undoubtably am missing some chunk somewhere that should be there. However, it is missing many details that I have intentionally dropped as material that would be better presented in a sub-article. I don't want to lose information, but the main article shouldn't be bogged with minutae, especially on a topic as big as WWII. Thank you ahead of time for any commentary, you can post it here or on my user talk page. Thanks!!! Joshbaumgartner 07:42, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)
If there is no objection, I will post the re-write at the end of the week so all can edit (or sooner if requested). Joshbaumgartner 00:46, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)
As an experienced Wikipedian, I suggest you write it on a temp page first, have others help you polish it up, and then move it here. →Raul654 04:35, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)
The article re-write has been posted to a temp page: World War II/temp for further improvement and comment. Joshbaumgartner 10:43, 2005 Jan 23 (UTC)
Generally this rewrite is very nice. It's well-balenced and about the right length. I'd have no issue is this was made the main article. It obviously owes quite a bit to the old article, so maybe we should replace the text rather than move it, so as to preserve the old author history.
Two comments though: the summary section is really not necessary. If anyone has read down that far then they already have the information there. The 'participation' section is also a bit redundant. Again, anyone reading that far has already found out most of the things there. There is room for a section describing the effects on some countries (such as Britain's effective loss of Empire and the US rise to economic prominence) but they could go in an 'aftereffects' section. DJ Clayworth 7 July 2005 17:03 (UTC)
I've made a few edits to the temp article on the subject of the Italian campaign, which was rather garbled before. However, I'm concerned that this version of the article is simply too short. It outlines the course of military campaigns, but doesn't explain why. The political background is hardly mentioned. There is no mention of Yalta, Tehran, Lend-Lease, the Atlantic Charter, Stalingrad, and so on and so on and so on. Churchill, Stalin, and Roosevelt seem only to be mentioned in that picture from Yalta (or Tehran). There is the usual bias against the Eastern Front - why does Operation Torch get mentioned, but none of the individual Soviet offensives? And China is also barely discussed. I realize that any article has to pick and choose, but it feels like this article simply leaves too much out. The main article on World War II ought to be a solid article, and not just a portal for links to other, more detailed articles. I think this is especially true in terms of the high politics stuff, which simply isn't going to get covered elsewhere. john k 21:42, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In terms of the politics, I feel like the current organization makes it a bit difficult - A more chronological framework, where we talk about the war in each theatre in each year, would make it easier. For instance, Tehran makes sense in the context of being in late 1943, as the western allies prepare their second front, and so forth, and the context gets lost if you just have one big section on high politics. As to China - I agree about the early part of the Chinese conflict. But after December 1941 it becomes pretty closely related to the Pacific War, particular the China-Burma-India Theatre, which was one of the main fronts of the war against Japan. By the way, I agree with you that the current version is pretty awful. john k 02:15, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In terms of Wikipedia procedures, I am sorry to see that the rewrite at /temp can't be transparently substituted with the current version. Having read both versions, I see advantages with Josh's approach and particularly with his language, but the appearent coherence of the narrative, that is one of the chief advantages of the /temp-version, will most probably not last for very long once the article is put in place. As a result, many of its disadvantages, including the UK/US-POV, may remain for a longer time than its advantages. That's why, if given the choice, I would support the old version staying.
However, I propose that we either agree to change the structure of the article according to Josh's proposal, but keep the old text and in particular the existing links until the new structure has stood the test of time for some months, or that Josh replace the text of the current article paragraph by paragraph or section by section in a moderate pace, which makes it easier to spot, discuss, and correct errors, introduced bias, and omission of links to other Wikipedia-articles. -- Johan Magnus 16:20, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could have a deadline (obviously in a reasonable timeframe) for the temp page (which is quite excellent at the moment, even if it still needs improving!) to be shifted to the normal page? I say this because I'd hate to have editors edit the current page and discover all their hard work wiped out! Also, maybe a note on the temp version could be added to the page so that editors know of the work being done? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:07, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What's the status of World War II/temp? Should it be merged back into this article? OR what? →Raul654 00:56, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Article listed on peer review at Wikipedia:Peer review/World War II. 119 05:01, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have references or, on the latter, POV attribution on these bits in Consequences?
World War II started in Europe, namely in Poland, in Danzig (Gdańsk), at dawn of 1 Sept. 1939. The German warship "Schlezwig Holstein" shot at the Polish coast-guard station. This is the fact that all educated children know as the beginning of WW2, which then spread nearly all over the world. No debate over this date, please!
OK, then no. 119, the most neutral point is when you remain silent and percept nothing. If anyone wishing to learn something about WW2 finds this article on the web, they will find also a piece of information that there is "a debate", which is perhaps some niche conflict between historians, not a commonly accepted fact. Namely, later in the article we can read, when exactly the war started, i.e. on 1st Sept. 1939. Two days later, Britain and France declared war on Germany. These fact are most remarkable. We should highlight the most imortant facts if we are to treat Wikipedia as a real encyclopaedia, shouldn't we?
Both figures are given for the total number of deaths - one in the first paragraph, the second in the third paragraph. Which is correct? It looks not very good right now to have both figures there. Moncrief 20:03, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
Why does the link behind the figure show even more deaths? 103 mil to be exact. We should at least try to keep both pages the same. Or at least figure out which page is wrong. -- Soyweiser 09:07, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
The current figure of deaths is nearly 70 million which is preposterous. Most conservative historians put the number at 50 million while some rate it as 55 million. John Keegan says in The Second World War that " Some 50 million people are estimated to have died as a result of the Second World War, it is in the nature of war making that an exact figure can never be established". Encarta lists the figure of about 55 million dead. The WW2 Casualty page also needs a major edit. IndieJones 21:46, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
24.214.192.86 has revised the intro to state as fact that the war's starting date is 1932. Please note that this violates NPOV. If you are familiar with a reference which states the war's opening date as 1932, that would be very useful in attribution. However, Wikipedia does not assume one view is fact. 119 01:23, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The link points to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Bombing_During_World_War_II but this turns up as a untouched page. The link maybe should lead to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing#World_War_II ? -- macaddct1984 4:55, 8 March 2005 (UTC)
I thought I changed "radar" to RADAR since it is an acronym; however, it doesn't look like the change is taking effect.-- P Todd 03:41, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well now it seems to have been commited.--
P Todd 03:43, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And jeep is an acronym too, but there's no need to capitalize the letters. --
Madchester 04:46, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else see anything wrong with this statement?
"On December 7, 1941 Japan bombed the U.S. naval base called Pearl Harbor. Thus making the U.S. bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki."
I agree with Zeerus. That statement can be a little misleading, and really just does not look like encyclopedia material. -- DA Roc 14:06, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have a few suggestions for the stub article under the heading Contemporary Culture. I think we should remove that entire section, and put the given link tot he main article under the See Also section. Also, I think the stub label should be removed under the genocide section of this entry. The same goes for the Home Front part of the page. If anything we can try and expand the Home Front and Genocide sections with some more information. Just enought o get the stub label removed. I'm open to suggestions on those. For now, I'm going to remove the section on contemporary culture and move the link to the see also section -- Zeerus 19:10, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
I see that the Balkan states are in the European theatre of WWII, can I recommend they be moved to the Mediterranean section? Oberiko 23:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Just reading this, but I don't think WWII involved all continents. If my suspicions are correct Antartica was exempt from WWII.
And so was South America in most respects, I think. Bgohla 10:45, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
This period should be covered in more detail: along with Soviet treaty with Hitler 1939 the similar treaty of the West with Hitler 1938 should be mentioned (I tried to introduce it). Also to be included: Soviet proposal for the treaty with the West (declined by the latter) against Nazi Germany in April 1939 should be present etc. For the timeline of events see, e.g. [1]. 213.115.184.126 14:11, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In the section on Pearl Harbor I found this: "The attack is widely seen as the final straw that drew the United States into the war." widely seen? I would have thought there was no need for this qualifier. Any objections? DJ Clayworth 13:51, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It could be argued that the US was already actively engaged in WW2 before Pearl Harbour as they were sailing supplies and war material across the Atlantic. While the military participation in this was limited, it can be seen as an act of violence against Germany to supply war materials to Great Britain.
Romania and Bulgaria did not "surrender", they switched sides and fought the Nazis till the V-E Day and later. -- Vladko 04:08, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
In the section regarding the Battle of Britain, the phrase "The war sucked major balls!" has been inserted at the end of the paragraph, but I don't see that line when I switched to edit mode. Not sure how this graffitit can be removed, but thought I'd pass this along.
The article says
One conflict separated by a 19+ year ceasefire in which Italy and Japan change sides? Who argues this? Clearly the wars are connected, but to say that they were one conflict seems very strained. Quale 07:05, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else think the nuclear explosion is not the best picture to head up this article? I know it's a significant event, but it's not typical of the war. I wondered if we could maybe head the article up with a stack of three pictures of battle in progress - one land, one sea, one air. Ideally they could be from different theatres, maybe Battle of Britain, Russian front and Pacific naval. We could move the mushroom cloud down to the appropriate section. DJ Clayworth 21:35, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I've added one example of what it might be here. DJ Clayworth 23:08, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I like the montage. It covers most of the ground. The only other suggestions I'd make are: a) I'd like to see it it bigger. I know header pictures are traditionally 300 pixels but I think this could be an exception. b) I'd still like to see a picture representing air and/or sea war, which could also represent the Pacific Theatre. Aerial attack on a naval vessel would be good, since that was a fundamental shift in the nature of sea warfare, or a strategic bomber formation, which would also be a new (and very important) development. DJ Clayworth 16:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
The montage
I previously talked about a montage. Regarding the posts on the image subject, there seems to be a consensus that the Nagasaki image is inadequate.
After long and careful considerations I am myself convinced; rather than depicting World War II, the Nagasaki Bomb marks the transition from one era to the other (pre- to postnuclear, pre- to postworldwar etc.). If we examine the image very bluntly, it could really be any nuclear explosion - and this is a good reason why it should not title this page. Furthermore, it envokes so many other feelings which are not immediately connected to World War II, e.g. "Nuclear Testing", "The Cold War", "The Nuclear Arms Race", "Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)" etc. - the list goes on and on. I really think the quality of the main page is actually diminished due to the Nagasaki picture.
Conclusively, I hereby completely stick out my neck: I have realised my previous suggestions and spent the entire day on a new picture. This picture has been uploaded to Wikimedia and linked to from the World War II Main Page. I did this today because I think there is a consensus, and if no-one makes a bold move, the issue could be open for a long time...
Naturally, it still is a suggestion, and I would really appreciate all opinions. For your reviewing - here are my notes on the image I created:
General:
Choice of pictures:
Last, I would like to say the following; if there is any one picture I personally would choose, if I had to, it would be the Soviet flag over the Reichstag. Look at it - it is a truly amazing picture! Perfectly composed, it shows the brutality of the war and the victory - the devastated, still smoking Third Reich capital, the Soviet flag set down firmly in the heart of Europe, marking both VE and the start of the Cold War.
As I said, I appreciate your opinions; I'd be happy to edit my image if I find the suggestions are relevant and/or there is a new consensus. If you wish to contact me personally, please leave a message on My talk page.
Regards, Dennis Nilsson. -- Dna-Dennis 21:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
This is certainly not good. I designed the montage so that the images wouldn't be so blunt, but smooth. I seem to have failed and I will make immediate changes to my picture. The image looked good on my monitor, but now that you are mentioning it I remember that my friends' monitors usually are darker than mine; my monitor is thus probably brighter than normal...
I will start by editing the picture montage to the default opacity, and continue from there.
When the new picture appear (in ca. 30 minutes), please tell me how it looks. Regards. Dna-Dennis 23:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It's already done & uploaded - the new montage with unchanged brightness of the original photos. Please, remember to "refresh" with your browser so you don't see the old image cache...and please tell me if it is better. Regards. Dna-Dennis 23:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
On Shanes' opinions: I agree to an extent with you on the small size of the montage pictures. First I thought about using only 3 smaller pictures, but then I would had to scrap two - which? I don't however think the Earth should be in color, since the other pictures are black & white - it would be confusing. But the suggestion of the Iwo Jima flag is good - I thought about when I planned the montage. I think I'll wait a while until I hear the opinion of others...
On Wikibofh's suggestions: I could upload a hi-res image, but would not this be a disadvantage to modem users? My original psd size is 1680 kB and max jpeg is 440 kB. How large do you think the file may be?
And, thank you very much, Lisiate.
Ok, Wikibofh, now I have uploaded the maximum hi-res version... now users can zoom in on the bus :). Dna-Dennis 02:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
(Thanks, Wikibofh!)
Another thing which have just struck me...
Since I've been working on the WW2 montage aswell as the World War I article, I am considering making a montage for the WWI page aswell. I think it would be appropriate for basically the same reasons as the WW2 montage, and, make the WWI and WW2 pages more corresponding. Therefore, I would really appreciate opinions posted on WWI discussion page "A Main Picture Montage".
Regards, Dna-Dennis 18:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
(Note: The WWI page has now got itself a similar montage, making it more corresponding to WW2. I would appreciate opinions on it under "A Main Picture Montage" on the WWI talk page.) Dna-Dennis 01:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for you appreciation, 140.247.60.206! I agree - the title and the globe can seem a bit cheesy. When I designed the picture, I wanted to (1) "break off" the war pictures with something completely different, (2) include something everybody recognizes and (3) underline the true globality of the war. To fill the picture with only small war pictures would, I believe, make it dull and uninteresting to the average reader. I think I rather go for "cheesy" than "dull". I appreciate your opinion, and if you have any suggestion, please post them here. And let's also hear what other people have to say about it. Regards, Dennis Dna-Dennis 21:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Now, there are very many people who are critical to the globe, so why haven't I changed it? Am I trying to ignore it? Am I too proud of my work? No, not at all. To tell you the truth, I have had a lack of inspiration; I simply had not known what to do else. But today I will give it a try and hopefully upload a new version of the title picture. Regards, Dennis. Dna-Dennis 14:09, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Due to various opinions (see discussion above) I have now made a new version of the title picture. When you are viewing the WW2 article or the full size pic in Wikimedia, remember to hit "refresh" to ensure you are not viewing your browser's cache! (as I myself did and got VERY confused). The changes made are the following:
I hope the new version of the title picture is to most persons' satisfactions. I know I can't satisfy everyone, but at least, I try. As before, I am thankful of all opinions. Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 17:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
There is a sentence: "During the Allied island advances in the Pacific, surrendering troops were almost routinely killed by Japanese, American and Australian troops." Should it be Chinese here instead of Japanese? I wouldn't think the Japanese were killing troops that surrendered during allied advances. I would have thought, if anything, they were the troops that surrendered during allied advances. Open4D 22:57, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the point is that all sides killed surrendering troops. However, to my knowledge there were very few engagements in which Japanese troops actually surrendered in significant numbers. -- Cavgunner 11:31, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems that the article has been copied upon itself at the end, I don't have time to but someone should fix that.
Currently, the information given on the Italian Front is far from detailed. At the moment, the entire section is one paragraph:
"North Africa was used as a springboard for the invasion of Sicily on 10 July 1943. Operation control was, for the first few months, based on the island of Malta. Having captured Sicily, the Allies invaded mainland Italy on 3 September 1943. On July 25 Mussolini was fired from office by the King of Italy, allowing a new government to take power. Shortly before the main invasion of 8 September, the new Italian government surrendered. The German Army continued to fight from the Gothic Line and then Winter Line in Italy's mountains. The conflict would last until the spring of 1945."
Somehow, I think this is not up to Wikipedia standards. It should say more on the major battles, such as the Battles of Monte Cassino and Anzio. It should also include more on the situation with Mussolini and the fall of Rome, the first Axis capitol to be captured.
In the section on Operation Torch: is there a source to back up the statement that it was the French Resistance who captured Darlan and Juin? All the English language sources I've been able to find did not say this; they also said that the Algiers coup was put down by the end of 8 November, at which time as far as I can tell Darlan was still at large. DJ Clayworth 21:37, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone agree with me that there are too many links to other articles on this page? Too much blue linked text doesn't make it easy to read. Obviously a lot of links are very relevant and have to stay - I'm thinking more of removing links to all the years and dates, and all the individual countries. Do people think doing that would be OK? Jez 12:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone expand Naha, Okinawa#History section? Thanks. -- Aphaea * 03:52, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that a number of articles will abbreviate this was as 'WWII', others will use 'WW2', and I'm sure that others are in use. I'd like to try my hand at standardizing these across Wikipedia, but I'm not sure which is more popular. Opinions? -- Bletch 17:07, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, WWII is more appropriate, since it is commonly World War II, and that is the name of the article.-- naryathegreat | (talk) 01:03, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
Added "Casualties" to the 'Consequences' section at the bottom. Zanturaeon June 30, 2005 01:26 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The Battle of the Scheldt, is without a doubt one of the most significant battles on the Western front, but for some reason has been overlooked countless times by many historians. I just finished the article and some supporting documents on it. I think it is absolutely worth including in the main ww2 article, as without the supply lines, the allied defense during the Battle of the Bulge would have been sketchy at best.
All discussion and debate is welcomed here in terms of it's noteworthiness in this article, and on the talk page for the Battle of the Scheldt.
cheers. -- Oldsoul 4 July 2005 23:23 (UTC)
Right now it says in the second paragraph that the war:
... continued in Asia and the Pacific until (...) the Japanese surrender on September 2, 1945 (V-J Day).
but September 2 was only the day for the formal signing of the terms of surrender. The war is much more frequently said to have ended on August 15, when Japan accepted the terms of the Potsdam declaration and laid down her arms. And this day, August 15, is indeed the V-J day as it says in the V-J Day article. I was about to change the date, but thought I'd ask about it here first.
Shanes 02:10, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Make note of both, indicating which is which and why. -- User:naryathegreat | (talk) 00:16, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
Is there any information anywhere about the treaties Germany, Japan, and Italy signed ending the war? There is lots of stuff on the internet about the Treaty of Versailles, but not on the end of WWII. There needs to be something about this.
The current World War II article is very burdened. The war is a HUGE topic, and there are billions of details. Unfortunately I think too many of these details have been presented in the main article, and not enough is presented in orderly sub-articles. I have made a re-write of the article, aiming to present a concise and orderly picture of the war to a researcher, especially a novice to the war (because that's the point isn't it?). I have posted the current incarnation of it on my user page user page and would appreciate some commentary on whether it represents an improvement over the current article or not. I have not completed adding all of the links, and undoubtably am missing some chunk somewhere that should be there. However, it is missing many details that I have intentionally dropped as material that would be better presented in a sub-article. I don't want to lose information, but the main article shouldn't be bogged with minutae, especially on a topic as big as WWII. Thank you ahead of time for any commentary, you can post it here or on my user talk page. Thanks!!! Joshbaumgartner 07:42, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)
If there is no objection, I will post the re-write at the end of the week so all can edit (or sooner if requested). Joshbaumgartner 00:46, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)
As an experienced Wikipedian, I suggest you write it on a temp page first, have others help you polish it up, and then move it here. →Raul654 04:35, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)
The article re-write has been posted to a temp page: World War II/temp for further improvement and comment. Joshbaumgartner 10:43, 2005 Jan 23 (UTC)
Generally this rewrite is very nice. It's well-balenced and about the right length. I'd have no issue is this was made the main article. It obviously owes quite a bit to the old article, so maybe we should replace the text rather than move it, so as to preserve the old author history.
Two comments though: the summary section is really not necessary. If anyone has read down that far then they already have the information there. The 'participation' section is also a bit redundant. Again, anyone reading that far has already found out most of the things there. There is room for a section describing the effects on some countries (such as Britain's effective loss of Empire and the US rise to economic prominence) but they could go in an 'aftereffects' section. DJ Clayworth 7 July 2005 17:03 (UTC)
I've made a few edits to the temp article on the subject of the Italian campaign, which was rather garbled before. However, I'm concerned that this version of the article is simply too short. It outlines the course of military campaigns, but doesn't explain why. The political background is hardly mentioned. There is no mention of Yalta, Tehran, Lend-Lease, the Atlantic Charter, Stalingrad, and so on and so on and so on. Churchill, Stalin, and Roosevelt seem only to be mentioned in that picture from Yalta (or Tehran). There is the usual bias against the Eastern Front - why does Operation Torch get mentioned, but none of the individual Soviet offensives? And China is also barely discussed. I realize that any article has to pick and choose, but it feels like this article simply leaves too much out. The main article on World War II ought to be a solid article, and not just a portal for links to other, more detailed articles. I think this is especially true in terms of the high politics stuff, which simply isn't going to get covered elsewhere. john k 21:42, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In terms of the politics, I feel like the current organization makes it a bit difficult - A more chronological framework, where we talk about the war in each theatre in each year, would make it easier. For instance, Tehran makes sense in the context of being in late 1943, as the western allies prepare their second front, and so forth, and the context gets lost if you just have one big section on high politics. As to China - I agree about the early part of the Chinese conflict. But after December 1941 it becomes pretty closely related to the Pacific War, particular the China-Burma-India Theatre, which was one of the main fronts of the war against Japan. By the way, I agree with you that the current version is pretty awful. john k 02:15, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In terms of Wikipedia procedures, I am sorry to see that the rewrite at /temp can't be transparently substituted with the current version. Having read both versions, I see advantages with Josh's approach and particularly with his language, but the appearent coherence of the narrative, that is one of the chief advantages of the /temp-version, will most probably not last for very long once the article is put in place. As a result, many of its disadvantages, including the UK/US-POV, may remain for a longer time than its advantages. That's why, if given the choice, I would support the old version staying.
However, I propose that we either agree to change the structure of the article according to Josh's proposal, but keep the old text and in particular the existing links until the new structure has stood the test of time for some months, or that Josh replace the text of the current article paragraph by paragraph or section by section in a moderate pace, which makes it easier to spot, discuss, and correct errors, introduced bias, and omission of links to other Wikipedia-articles. -- Johan Magnus 16:20, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could have a deadline (obviously in a reasonable timeframe) for the temp page (which is quite excellent at the moment, even if it still needs improving!) to be shifted to the normal page? I say this because I'd hate to have editors edit the current page and discover all their hard work wiped out! Also, maybe a note on the temp version could be added to the page so that editors know of the work being done? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:07, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What's the status of World War II/temp? Should it be merged back into this article? OR what? →Raul654 00:56, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Article listed on peer review at Wikipedia:Peer review/World War II. 119 05:01, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have references or, on the latter, POV attribution on these bits in Consequences?
World War II started in Europe, namely in Poland, in Danzig (Gdańsk), at dawn of 1 Sept. 1939. The German warship "Schlezwig Holstein" shot at the Polish coast-guard station. This is the fact that all educated children know as the beginning of WW2, which then spread nearly all over the world. No debate over this date, please!
OK, then no. 119, the most neutral point is when you remain silent and percept nothing. If anyone wishing to learn something about WW2 finds this article on the web, they will find also a piece of information that there is "a debate", which is perhaps some niche conflict between historians, not a commonly accepted fact. Namely, later in the article we can read, when exactly the war started, i.e. on 1st Sept. 1939. Two days later, Britain and France declared war on Germany. These fact are most remarkable. We should highlight the most imortant facts if we are to treat Wikipedia as a real encyclopaedia, shouldn't we?
Both figures are given for the total number of deaths - one in the first paragraph, the second in the third paragraph. Which is correct? It looks not very good right now to have both figures there. Moncrief 20:03, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
Why does the link behind the figure show even more deaths? 103 mil to be exact. We should at least try to keep both pages the same. Or at least figure out which page is wrong. -- Soyweiser 09:07, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
The current figure of deaths is nearly 70 million which is preposterous. Most conservative historians put the number at 50 million while some rate it as 55 million. John Keegan says in The Second World War that " Some 50 million people are estimated to have died as a result of the Second World War, it is in the nature of war making that an exact figure can never be established". Encarta lists the figure of about 55 million dead. The WW2 Casualty page also needs a major edit. IndieJones 21:46, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
24.214.192.86 has revised the intro to state as fact that the war's starting date is 1932. Please note that this violates NPOV. If you are familiar with a reference which states the war's opening date as 1932, that would be very useful in attribution. However, Wikipedia does not assume one view is fact. 119 01:23, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The link points to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Bombing_During_World_War_II but this turns up as a untouched page. The link maybe should lead to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing#World_War_II ? -- macaddct1984 4:55, 8 March 2005 (UTC)
I thought I changed "radar" to RADAR since it is an acronym; however, it doesn't look like the change is taking effect.-- P Todd 03:41, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well now it seems to have been commited.--
P Todd 03:43, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And jeep is an acronym too, but there's no need to capitalize the letters. --
Madchester 04:46, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else see anything wrong with this statement?
"On December 7, 1941 Japan bombed the U.S. naval base called Pearl Harbor. Thus making the U.S. bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki."
I agree with Zeerus. That statement can be a little misleading, and really just does not look like encyclopedia material. -- DA Roc 14:06, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have a few suggestions for the stub article under the heading Contemporary Culture. I think we should remove that entire section, and put the given link tot he main article under the See Also section. Also, I think the stub label should be removed under the genocide section of this entry. The same goes for the Home Front part of the page. If anything we can try and expand the Home Front and Genocide sections with some more information. Just enought o get the stub label removed. I'm open to suggestions on those. For now, I'm going to remove the section on contemporary culture and move the link to the see also section -- Zeerus 19:10, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
I see that the Balkan states are in the European theatre of WWII, can I recommend they be moved to the Mediterranean section? Oberiko 23:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Just reading this, but I don't think WWII involved all continents. If my suspicions are correct Antartica was exempt from WWII.
And so was South America in most respects, I think. Bgohla 10:45, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
This period should be covered in more detail: along with Soviet treaty with Hitler 1939 the similar treaty of the West with Hitler 1938 should be mentioned (I tried to introduce it). Also to be included: Soviet proposal for the treaty with the West (declined by the latter) against Nazi Germany in April 1939 should be present etc. For the timeline of events see, e.g. [1]. 213.115.184.126 14:11, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In the section on Pearl Harbor I found this: "The attack is widely seen as the final straw that drew the United States into the war." widely seen? I would have thought there was no need for this qualifier. Any objections? DJ Clayworth 13:51, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It could be argued that the US was already actively engaged in WW2 before Pearl Harbour as they were sailing supplies and war material across the Atlantic. While the military participation in this was limited, it can be seen as an act of violence against Germany to supply war materials to Great Britain.
Romania and Bulgaria did not "surrender", they switched sides and fought the Nazis till the V-E Day and later. -- Vladko 04:08, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
In the section regarding the Battle of Britain, the phrase "The war sucked major balls!" has been inserted at the end of the paragraph, but I don't see that line when I switched to edit mode. Not sure how this graffitit can be removed, but thought I'd pass this along.
The article says
One conflict separated by a 19+ year ceasefire in which Italy and Japan change sides? Who argues this? Clearly the wars are connected, but to say that they were one conflict seems very strained. Quale 07:05, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else think the nuclear explosion is not the best picture to head up this article? I know it's a significant event, but it's not typical of the war. I wondered if we could maybe head the article up with a stack of three pictures of battle in progress - one land, one sea, one air. Ideally they could be from different theatres, maybe Battle of Britain, Russian front and Pacific naval. We could move the mushroom cloud down to the appropriate section. DJ Clayworth 21:35, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I've added one example of what it might be here. DJ Clayworth 23:08, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I like the montage. It covers most of the ground. The only other suggestions I'd make are: a) I'd like to see it it bigger. I know header pictures are traditionally 300 pixels but I think this could be an exception. b) I'd still like to see a picture representing air and/or sea war, which could also represent the Pacific Theatre. Aerial attack on a naval vessel would be good, since that was a fundamental shift in the nature of sea warfare, or a strategic bomber formation, which would also be a new (and very important) development. DJ Clayworth 16:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
The montage
I previously talked about a montage. Regarding the posts on the image subject, there seems to be a consensus that the Nagasaki image is inadequate.
After long and careful considerations I am myself convinced; rather than depicting World War II, the Nagasaki Bomb marks the transition from one era to the other (pre- to postnuclear, pre- to postworldwar etc.). If we examine the image very bluntly, it could really be any nuclear explosion - and this is a good reason why it should not title this page. Furthermore, it envokes so many other feelings which are not immediately connected to World War II, e.g. "Nuclear Testing", "The Cold War", "The Nuclear Arms Race", "Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)" etc. - the list goes on and on. I really think the quality of the main page is actually diminished due to the Nagasaki picture.
Conclusively, I hereby completely stick out my neck: I have realised my previous suggestions and spent the entire day on a new picture. This picture has been uploaded to Wikimedia and linked to from the World War II Main Page. I did this today because I think there is a consensus, and if no-one makes a bold move, the issue could be open for a long time...
Naturally, it still is a suggestion, and I would really appreciate all opinions. For your reviewing - here are my notes on the image I created:
General:
Choice of pictures:
Last, I would like to say the following; if there is any one picture I personally would choose, if I had to, it would be the Soviet flag over the Reichstag. Look at it - it is a truly amazing picture! Perfectly composed, it shows the brutality of the war and the victory - the devastated, still smoking Third Reich capital, the Soviet flag set down firmly in the heart of Europe, marking both VE and the start of the Cold War.
As I said, I appreciate your opinions; I'd be happy to edit my image if I find the suggestions are relevant and/or there is a new consensus. If you wish to contact me personally, please leave a message on My talk page.
Regards, Dennis Nilsson. -- Dna-Dennis 21:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
This is certainly not good. I designed the montage so that the images wouldn't be so blunt, but smooth. I seem to have failed and I will make immediate changes to my picture. The image looked good on my monitor, but now that you are mentioning it I remember that my friends' monitors usually are darker than mine; my monitor is thus probably brighter than normal...
I will start by editing the picture montage to the default opacity, and continue from there.
When the new picture appear (in ca. 30 minutes), please tell me how it looks. Regards. Dna-Dennis 23:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It's already done & uploaded - the new montage with unchanged brightness of the original photos. Please, remember to "refresh" with your browser so you don't see the old image cache...and please tell me if it is better. Regards. Dna-Dennis 23:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
On Shanes' opinions: I agree to an extent with you on the small size of the montage pictures. First I thought about using only 3 smaller pictures, but then I would had to scrap two - which? I don't however think the Earth should be in color, since the other pictures are black & white - it would be confusing. But the suggestion of the Iwo Jima flag is good - I thought about when I planned the montage. I think I'll wait a while until I hear the opinion of others...
On Wikibofh's suggestions: I could upload a hi-res image, but would not this be a disadvantage to modem users? My original psd size is 1680 kB and max jpeg is 440 kB. How large do you think the file may be?
And, thank you very much, Lisiate.
Ok, Wikibofh, now I have uploaded the maximum hi-res version... now users can zoom in on the bus :). Dna-Dennis 02:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
(Thanks, Wikibofh!)
Another thing which have just struck me...
Since I've been working on the WW2 montage aswell as the World War I article, I am considering making a montage for the WWI page aswell. I think it would be appropriate for basically the same reasons as the WW2 montage, and, make the WWI and WW2 pages more corresponding. Therefore, I would really appreciate opinions posted on WWI discussion page "A Main Picture Montage".
Regards, Dna-Dennis 18:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
(Note: The WWI page has now got itself a similar montage, making it more corresponding to WW2. I would appreciate opinions on it under "A Main Picture Montage" on the WWI talk page.) Dna-Dennis 01:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for you appreciation, 140.247.60.206! I agree - the title and the globe can seem a bit cheesy. When I designed the picture, I wanted to (1) "break off" the war pictures with something completely different, (2) include something everybody recognizes and (3) underline the true globality of the war. To fill the picture with only small war pictures would, I believe, make it dull and uninteresting to the average reader. I think I rather go for "cheesy" than "dull". I appreciate your opinion, and if you have any suggestion, please post them here. And let's also hear what other people have to say about it. Regards, Dennis Dna-Dennis 21:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Now, there are very many people who are critical to the globe, so why haven't I changed it? Am I trying to ignore it? Am I too proud of my work? No, not at all. To tell you the truth, I have had a lack of inspiration; I simply had not known what to do else. But today I will give it a try and hopefully upload a new version of the title picture. Regards, Dennis. Dna-Dennis 14:09, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Due to various opinions (see discussion above) I have now made a new version of the title picture. When you are viewing the WW2 article or the full size pic in Wikimedia, remember to hit "refresh" to ensure you are not viewing your browser's cache! (as I myself did and got VERY confused). The changes made are the following:
I hope the new version of the title picture is to most persons' satisfactions. I know I can't satisfy everyone, but at least, I try. As before, I am thankful of all opinions. Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 17:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
There is a sentence: "During the Allied island advances in the Pacific, surrendering troops were almost routinely killed by Japanese, American and Australian troops." Should it be Chinese here instead of Japanese? I wouldn't think the Japanese were killing troops that surrendered during allied advances. I would have thought, if anything, they were the troops that surrendered during allied advances. Open4D 22:57, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the point is that all sides killed surrendering troops. However, to my knowledge there were very few engagements in which Japanese troops actually surrendered in significant numbers. -- Cavgunner 11:31, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems that the article has been copied upon itself at the end, I don't have time to but someone should fix that.
Currently, the information given on the Italian Front is far from detailed. At the moment, the entire section is one paragraph:
"North Africa was used as a springboard for the invasion of Sicily on 10 July 1943. Operation control was, for the first few months, based on the island of Malta. Having captured Sicily, the Allies invaded mainland Italy on 3 September 1943. On July 25 Mussolini was fired from office by the King of Italy, allowing a new government to take power. Shortly before the main invasion of 8 September, the new Italian government surrendered. The German Army continued to fight from the Gothic Line and then Winter Line in Italy's mountains. The conflict would last until the spring of 1945."
Somehow, I think this is not up to Wikipedia standards. It should say more on the major battles, such as the Battles of Monte Cassino and Anzio. It should also include more on the situation with Mussolini and the fall of Rome, the first Axis capitol to be captured.
In the section on Operation Torch: is there a source to back up the statement that it was the French Resistance who captured Darlan and Juin? All the English language sources I've been able to find did not say this; they also said that the Algiers coup was put down by the end of 8 November, at which time as far as I can tell Darlan was still at large. DJ Clayworth 21:37, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone agree with me that there are too many links to other articles on this page? Too much blue linked text doesn't make it easy to read. Obviously a lot of links are very relevant and have to stay - I'm thinking more of removing links to all the years and dates, and all the individual countries. Do people think doing that would be OK? Jez 12:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone expand Naha, Okinawa#History section? Thanks. -- Aphaea * 03:52, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that a number of articles will abbreviate this was as 'WWII', others will use 'WW2', and I'm sure that others are in use. I'd like to try my hand at standardizing these across Wikipedia, but I'm not sure which is more popular. Opinions? -- Bletch 17:07, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, WWII is more appropriate, since it is commonly World War II, and that is the name of the article.-- naryathegreat | (talk) 01:03, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
Added "Casualties" to the 'Consequences' section at the bottom. Zanturaeon June 30, 2005 01:26 (UTC)