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I've decided to reorganise the To-Do list in an effort to make it more useful. Essentially I've added three new sub-headings: "Redirect", "Further information required" and "Done". The explanation for these headings is:
"Redirect" - use if the suggestion is best dealt with in another article (new or existing - if existing, try to specify the article)
"Further information required" - use if the suggestion is unclear or needs clarification.
"Done" use if the suggestion has been implemented and add the date that the suggestion was moved to the done section. Remove 'done' suggestions that are 1 month + old. This might seem somewhat redundant, but I think it is useful for people to see that their suggestions have been dealt with rather than simply deleted.
There is a suggestion in the To Do list:
"Axis powers like germany,Austria etc were more commonly known as the Cential Powers.Mythamrith92 15:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)"
I disagree-- Central Powers was a WWI term. During WWII these powers are commonly referred to as the Axis Powers. Ognolman 18:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Please compare the overview of this article with that of the following introduction and the rest of the American Civil War article.
The American Civil War (1861–1865) was a sectional conflict in the United States between the Federal government ("Union") and 11 southern slave states that declared their secession and formed the Confederate States of America, led by President Jefferson Davis. The "Union", led by President Abraham Lincoln and the Republican party which opposed expansion of slavery, rejected any right of secession. Fighting began April 12, 1861 when Confederate forces attacked a Federal fort at the Battle of Fort Sumter.
The whole Civil War article is not judgemental. It does not take sides and use inflamatory language such as invasion, aggression, defeat, nazi, militarism etc etc. To outsiders, the good vs evil in the American Civil War was more clearcut at the start of the war than in the similar phase of WW2. However, the writers have concentrated on facts, not just regurgitating what appears to be propoganda taught in the American school system. Correct me if I am wrong on the latter point. Wallie 20:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that User:Woogums reworded the intro in such manner that it states that the reasons of the war were different and diverse, "a combination of factors" (Treaty of Versailles, need for national self-determinism, Japanese and Italian nationalism), not only Nazis and their ideology. It even equalizes Nazism (calling it "ultra-nationalism") with Japanese and Italian ideologies (whuich are also called "ultra-nationalism"). I see this inappropriate to the encyclopedia and an intention to disperse the truth.-- Nixer 11:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
Here are the two versions:
The war was fought in response to the military aggression of Germany under Adolf Hitler, and the imperial ambitions of Japan in Asia. The majority of the fighting took place in and around Europe, where Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and later the Soviet Union, and in and around Asia and the Pacific, where Japan invaded many countries around the Northern and Western Pacific.
The main aim of the Nazi aggression was the conquest of Lebensraum (living space) for a greater German Empire at the expense of the peoples of Eastern Europe. During the war, Germany also pursued another aim, the elimination of European Jewry, which they believed had "biological base" in Eastern Europe, especially in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine.
A combination of factors, including a surge of military expansionism and ultra-nationalism in Germany, Italy, and Japan as well as the devastating effects of the Treaty of Versailles upon the German economy, are common overarching explanations for the war. Initial ostensive Nazi goals of German self-determinism evolved to a policy of Lebensraum (living space) acquisition for an expanded Germany. This expansionism led to the first major fighting in Europe when German troops attacked Poland in 1939, the traditional given date for the start of the war; this date is sometimes contested, as Japanese troops had been fighting in China since 1932. During the war, Germany also pursued another aim - that of the elimination of European Jewry, which they believed had a "biological base" in Eastern Europe, especially in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine.
The war was fought in response to the aggression of Germany under Adolf Hitler, and the ambitions of Japan in Asia. The majority of the fighting took place in and around Europe, where Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and later the Soviet Union, and in and around Asia and the Pacific, where Japan invaded many countries around the Northern and Western Pacific.
A combination of factors are held to have caused the outbreak of war. These include a surge of military expansionism and ultra-nationalism in Germany and Italy under facist governments and Japan under militarist government. The effects of the Treaty of Versailles upon the German economy following the Wall Street crash of 1929 are held to have pushed Germany into electing a Nazi government. The stated Nazi goals of German self-determinism evolved to a policy of Lebensraum (living space) - the acquisition for an expanded German Empire of lands to the east.
This led to the first major fighting in Europe when German troops attacked Poland in 1939 (following a less violent takeover of Sudentenland of Czechoslovakia the year before). The traditional date for the start of the war is given as September 1939, when Britain and France declared war on Germany in response to the attack on Poland; this date is sometimes contested, as Japanese troops had been fighting in China since 1932 whilst other countries, notably the United States, did not become involved until much later.
The war was triggered by the military aggression of Germany under Adolf Hitler, and the imperial ambitions of Japan in Asia. The main aim of the Nazi aggression was the conquest of Lebensraum (living space) for a greater German Empire at the expense of the peoples of Eastern Europe. During the war, Germany also pursued another aim, the elimination of European Jewry, which they believed had "biological base" in Eastern Europe, especially in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine.
Hi folks. I'm Redvers and I'm here to mediate in this discussion, if required, as it has been heated here in the past. Nixer called me in.
It's very good that people here are discussing calmly and rationally the development of this article, and thanks to Nixer for encouraging debate. Thanks to everybody for staying calm!
Everyone in this discussion should be fully aware of the Wikipedia Manual of Style, especially the Guide to Layout. Whilst this isn't a hard and fast rule - no Wikipedia rules are - the layout of our articles has been arrived at through several years of consensus and reader feedback.
The Guide to Layout says Normally, the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow. If further introductory material is needed before the first section, this can be covered in subsequent paragraphs. Introductions to biographical articles commonly double as summaries, listing the best-known achievements of the subject. Keep in mind that for many users this is all they will read, so the most important information should be included. Avoid links in the summary--users should be encouraged to read the summary, and the article, before jumping elsewhere. In addition the colored highlighting of the links may mislead some users into thinking these are especially important points.
I translate this as meaning that an article needs to start easy-to-read and get more detailed as it progresses. Others may disagree!
So, what does this mean in practice? As far as I can tell, the second version (from Woogums) contains many more useful extra facts, but it also has language that is pedestrian (no offense!) and doesn't allow for the Guide to Layout's request that articles start simply. The first version (again, no offense intended!) gives the conventional view of the causes of war, but it does so in better language than the second.
To me this suggests we could use a married version of the two. Now, we're never going to get a version that pleases everybody. But we might get a version that doesn't offend anybody. Or at least annoys everybody equally. We must bear in mind that we don't need to explain the concepts behind each word - the wikilinked articles should do that - but we should also be using language that an ignorant teenager who has just learned that his great-grandfather died/fought in the war would grasp with ease.
Therefore I propose the following text. It is not perfect, but this is a wiki and we can all work on it! Plus, Wikipedia has quite a number of years left, so we should allow for those who follow us to work on it as well.
The war was fought in response to the aggression of Germany under Adolf Hitler, and the ambitions of Japan in Asia. The majority of the fighting took place in and around Europe, where Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and later the Soviet Union, and in and around Asia and the Pacific, where Japan invaded many countries around the Northern and Western Pacific.
A combination of factors are held to have caused the outbreak of war. These include a surge of military expansionism and ultra-nationalism in Germany and Italy under facist governments and Japan under militarist government. The effects of the Treaty of Versailles upon the German economy following the Wall Street crash of 1929 are held to have pushed Germany into electing a Nazi government. The stated Nazi goals of German self-determinism evolved to a policy of Lebensraum (living space) - the acquisition for an expanded German Empire of lands to the east.
This led to the first major fighting in Europe when German troops attacked Poland in 1939 (following a less violent takeover of Sudentenland of Czechoslovakia the year before). The traditional date for the start of the war is given as September 1939, when Britain and France declared war on Germany in response to the attack on Poland; this date is sometimes contested, as Japanese troops had been fighting in China since 1932 whilst other countries, notably the United States, did not become involved until much later.
When does this poll end? Green caterpillar 00:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
This poll has been pretty untouched for a long time. I'll give it until September 4, 2006, 00:00 UTC, and then I'll change to whatever has the most votes.
Never mind, it's a tie. Green caterpillar 00:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
We face here the opposition by Wallie to saying the was was started by Germany because he consideres this faact as "bias against German people". Your comments.-- Nixer 07:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm deeply confused about how on earth it can be considered "racist" to point out that the Germans started World War II? Is it likewise racist to note that Prussia started the War of the Austrian Succession, that France started the Franco-Dutch War and the War of the Grand Alliance, that the United States started the Spanish-American War, that North Korea started the Korean War? A lot of wars are somewhat ambiguous as to who started them - each country escalates, one sends an ultimatum, it is rejected, a war starts. But on occasion it is not difficult to see who starts a war. This is normally true in wars that are not declared and begin with unheralded invasions of foreign countries with which one was previously at peace, a definition which fits both the German invasion of Poland in September 1939 and the Japanese attacks on American, British and Dutch forces in December 1941 (as well as, I think, Japanese aggressions in China, although I'm less familiar with the exact course of events.) It would be wrong to begin our World War I article by saying Germany started it, even though the dominant historical view at this point is probably that Germany and Austria-Hungary were much more responsible for the outbreak of war than the entente powers. But with World War II it simply isn't equivocal - everyone agrees that Germany started. Wallie needs to find some evidence that some serious historians actually believe that Germany did not start the war. This will be hard to do. Also, as Easter Monkey says, "Nazi" is not a racial slur. It's the nickname of the political party which ruled Germany from 1933 to 1945, including throughout the Second World War. If anything, use of "Nazis" actually elides German responsibility - it implies that war crimes and so forth were committed only by "Nazis," who of course no longer exist, rather than by "Germans," who do. Wallie seems to have come to the conclusion that German people believe they were fighting for a good cause in World War II, and that it is racist to present the war as being an example of aggression led by the Nazi Party. In fact, German people, like everyone else, are perfectly willing to admit that the war was aggression led by the Nazi Party. Actual German apologetics have generally relied upon the distinction that not all Germans were Nazis (true, but somewhat beside the point), and that it was the Nazi Waffen SS who committed all the atrocities, not the Wehrmacht (which is not true, but had considerable support for a long time.) But such apologetics, in fact, rely upon the idea of saying that "Nazis" do things, rather than that Germans do. The idea that using the term "Nazi" to refer to actions of the Germans during World War II is "racist" against Germans is patently absurd - Germany's strongest apologists do exactly the opposite, emphasizing that all the bad stuff was done by Nazis rather than Germans. john k 02:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The Second World War was the largest and bloodiest conflict in mankind history. It began in Europe on 1 September 1939 with the German attack on Poland without previous declaration of war of the German Reich and in the Pacific and/or in Asia with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, whereby sometimes one accepts also the outbreak of the second Japanese-Chinese war on 7 July 1937 as beginning in Asia. It was terminated in Europe on 8 May 1945 and in Asia with the signing of the surrender of Japan on 2 September 1945. The Axis powers in such a way specified, German Reich, Italy and Japan, led conquest campaigns against adjacent states, which wanted to subordinate them to their interests. Their military main opponents were at the beginning of France, Great Britain and the republic China. The Soviet Union took part in the initial phase of the war due to the Hitler valley in pact on the one hand in the German war against Poland and still attacked on the other hand in November 1939 Finland. With the end as winter war in March 1940 separated the Soviet Union admits of become campaign temporarily from the fighting. After the break of the Hitler valley in pact in form of an invasion were also the Soviet Union, committed from the German side, again and complicated after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor the USA for the first time into the fighting. The Second World War demanded approx.. 55 to 60 million human lives. It was coined/shaped by a strong racistic Ideologisierung, which to numerous war crimes and encroachment by force and mostly systematic led on the civilian population. The fact that the civilian population was directly affected in the comparison to the First World War still more strongly by the fighting lay in addition at the intensified development of the armaments industry. It made not least the wide bombardment possible of whole populated areas in Europe and Asia. After the war the alliance of winner powers broke apart. Under the guidance of the establishing superpowers Soviet Union and the USA the world-descriptive contrasts of the forming state blocks flowed into the cold war. JPotter 03:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Hallo guys, I changed the outbreak of the war passage to "The majority of the fighting took place in and around Europe, where Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and later the Soviet Union, and in and around Asia and the Pacific, where Japan invaded many countries around the Northern and Western Pacific.", as the preceding version were not acceptable:
I also merged the two passages about the extent of the war. Str1977 (smile back) 15:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Wallie, you seem to be insisting that use of "Nazi" is a racial slur. Can you provide any evidence to support the idea that the term is widely considered offensive by Germans when used to refer to the regime ruling Germany between 1933 and 1945. I am aware that Germans today are offended if they are referred to as Nazis (obviously). But that's not the same thing at all. If you can't provide any evidence, then you are just advancing your personal bugbears, which have no relevance to how we should construct an encyclopedia article about World War II. john k 20:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
If I may chime in: if used as John proposes (re the regime or the party) it is not a slur or offensive. If used against today's Germans collectively, or against persons that are not (Neo-)Nazis, or against all Germans living under the regime collectively it is offensive. What is maybe not offensive but inaccurate is the labelling of any institution member during the regime as a Nazi (unfortunately very much present in Wiki categories and articles), or the labelling of any institution (e.g. lawes predating the Nazis as Nazi Laws, military judges as Nazi judges) Also annoying is the use of Nazi replacing German, as in "the Nazis invaded Poland" or "Nazi occupation", instead of "the Germans invaded Poland" or "German occupation". (Sometimes it is fitting to say "Nazi German" but never just "Nazi") That smacks a bit of the DDR real Germany is a victor of the war mindset that has trickled in a bit into the West too. All these remarks in general, as I have no clue what that particular dispute is about. Str1977 (smile back) 20:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Wallie is claiming that two other people support his repeated reverts, removing the words "Nazi" and "Hitler" from the introduction to our encyclopedia article about WWII. Please, Wallie supporters, step forward so that you may be counted. Haber 21:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not claiming anything of the sort. This is a total misrepresentation of what I have done. I have reverted the material relating to the poll. The two other supporters are listed here:
Someone didn't even wait for the result of this poll. The old version was put back anyway. The poll is still undecided at 3/3. Wallie 21:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The Society for Military History is considering a session on Wikipedia at its annual meeting (Frederick Maryland, April 19-22, 2007). Any active editor who would like to be a panelist please contact rjensen@uic.edu Thanks Rjensen 00:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no mention of the German invasion of Yugoslavia.-- Cretanpride 12:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Please vote yea or nay, giving your reasons if you don't like this two paragraph entry. (Keep in mind that the intro contains 3 other paragraphs that would not be affected by this.)
As Wallie and Haber have stated, too much changed in the original poll for it to be useful any more. Note, I am just borrowing sentences from other writers, hoping to find a consensus. -- Habap 22:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
nay "triggered" sounds pornographic. Germany does "military aggression" while Japan has "imperial ambitions" isn't fair. "Ultra-" is a prefix that people use to show disapproval. Treaty and economy excuses are trotted out alone. Nazi policy did not evolve to Lebensraum, it was always Lebensraum. "biological base" still sounds stupid to me. The starting date controversy is pointless to introduce here when most people can't even associate WWII with the right decade. This is why kids hate historians. Late entry of U.S. is in article and too minor for intro. Fighting in Europe and Europe is redundant. USSR region where Germany fought was also in Europe.
very nay we are spending a lot of intro-space giving possible and disputed causes for the war, a subject that is incapable of reaching a final conclusion. Much more of the intro should be given over to what happened, which is easier to be factual about and which frankly most people will want to know about.
I have a radical suggestion: let's not mention the causes at all in the intro. Here's a suggested first paragraph:
I'm not claiming this version is perfect, but this approach means we don't have to spend any of the intro trying desperately to satisfy everyone about what the causes of the war were. That's not only easier but right; we lave the complex discussions until we can give them the treatment they deserve. DJ Clayworth 15:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
An odd selection - the Polish leader but not Mussolini? If Truman is in there, why not the other two British prime ministers during the war, or de Gaulle? Some are not technically commanders, but political leaders, although it's true they all had major roles in directing military operations. -- Cyclopaedic 12:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that the invasion of Greece caused the delay of the invasion of the Soviet Union? I would like to hear some thoughts?-- Sac222 03:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I saw a whole movie saying that it was the Greeks who more or less where a huge strategic turning point since it lay the germans to the russian winter- willgfass
I think these things sould be mentioned in the intro:
1. Germany invaded Poland and later the USSR because of Jewish concentration in these regions.
2. Nazis mostly successfully achieved the aim of the war - the elimination of European Jewry, though failed to achieve military victory.
-- Nixer 20:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes these things should be mentioned. No, they should not necessarily be mentioned in the intro. DJ Clayworth 21:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
You know what I think Wallie? I think Nazi Germany started the war, in Europe, because of nazi ideology which focussed on a number of things ... including proving the Germans were an master race and exterminating people who didn't live up to that. Rex 21:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding point 2 at the top of the section, I really don't believe Hitler sat down, just before he killed himself, and said "we really achieved our main objectives in this war, because we killed all the Jews". DJ Clayworth 14:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
No, for a start they didn't kill all the Jews. The war of expansion was about much more than just eliminating Jews though. It was about territory, power, lebensraum. Hitler also invaded France, which had some Jews (deported under Vichy), but that can't have been the reason behind the invasion. Although the Holocaust was a major part of WW2 and wouldn't have been possible on the same scale without it, equating the 2 things (the war and the holocaust) and assuming that all the war was about the Holocaust is just wrong. Jameskeates 08:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The intro is getting rather large, and needs to lose some weight. Wallie 23:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
If you don't like something, please don't be lazy and go back a few versions. It makes life difficult, and something good could be lost forever. Better to change, or even delete, the bit you don't like, and keep moving forwards, i.e., go with the flow. If you think of something good to say, put it in, even if it doesn't quite fit. The text can always be rearranged later by you or someone else. Wallie 20:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Many readers only read the summary (or brush up on the topic just before a test). The summary of perhaps the biggest and most complex event in history has to cover a lot of topics. Peoplewho want minimalism are better served by the War of Jenkin's Ear (yes that was a real war). The summary should have something to say about the most important land and naval and air battles, as well as some points regarding strategic goals. I suggest: mention Blitzkrieg 1940, battle of Moscow, Kursk, Normandy; u-boats, Pearl Harbor, Midway, Leyte Gulf; battle of Britain; strategic bombing of Germany; strategic nbombing of Japan. Rjensen 22:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
During a visit to the offices of the Calgary Herald newspaper I saw a copy of the front page of the 3 September 1939 issue reporting on France and the UK declaring war on Germany. The front page declares the new conflict "The Second World War". Although it's doubtful a small-city newspaper like the Herald would be the originator of the term, presumably it was applied through wire service coverage of the declaration. My question to those more well-read on the subject, is whether the use of the term by media on Sept. 3 (doesn't matter which media) constitutes the first public use of the term, or whether it might have been used even earlier. 23skidoo 22:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Finland can't be considered one of the axis powers just because it happened to be fighting Russia at the same time as Germany was. Germany took over Finland and destroyed most of it when they were leaving, they definately weren't allies!
If we've settled on this as an opening, it needs improvement in grammar at least. It also needs to be *far* less childish in tone. This is Wikipedia, not "Janet and John's Guide to World History" Well, for the moment anyway. I'm sure this opening will be completely changed in a week's time, hopefully for the better. As Haber says, "that's anarchy"... and its great! As for Janet and John, it would be best if we could keep the simplicity of style, but at the same time make it professional. This will probably happen anyway as many of us including me do not really understand the big words used by University Lecturers etc. anyway. Please keep adding to the article anyway. Someone else can always correct the grammar later... Is there an English teacher in the house? Wallie 07:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
World War II was a war fought from 1939 to 1945 in Europe, and from at least 1937 to 1945 in Asia. It was the largest armed conflict the world has ever seen, spanning the entire world and involving more countries than any previous war - and fought with powerful new weapons, culminating in the first aggressive use of two atomic bombs, whose very existence had been a tightly-held secret.
The conflict ravaged civilians more than had any previous wars of the modern era, and served as a backdrop for genocidal killings by Germany, the Soviet Union, and Japan. World War II caused a greater number of deaths, about 61 million, than any previous war.
It says that France participated until 1940. Actually they did participate beyond that date too... throughout the whole war... and in a similar way to Holland, Poland and others. Wallie 11:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Though the issue of who represented France 1940-44, deGaulle or Petain, is a tricky one, the article shouldn't state that France ceased to be an ally in 1940. Str1977 (smile back) 15:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Russia did in fact join the Allies before the US did; it never joined the Axis. France did in fact surrender in 1940. The DeGaulle regime can only be considered one of the smaller powers. Italy was not a leader of the Axis. The Axis treaty was Germany-Japan-Italy, of course. It was not a "sham" and not an Italian deal. When Italy dropped out in 1943 the term Axis was still in standard use, and remains so. Again, the details are in the article. The issue is what main points should be in the summary. They are: Britain, USA, USSR (and China) defeated Germany and Japan. That is the main story and we have to say that right away. Rjensen 18:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The opening tells who won the war and who lost--in 1945. We have to state that in as clear a form as possible. Rjensen 18:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Unlike my fellow Wikipedian Rjensen, I will not revert a fourth time and rather address the issue on the talk page again, though he did not reply to my last post.
His last edit [1] needlessly enlarged the intro by creating a second paragraph, whereas the former version was perfectly comprehensible. It also inserted old and new inaccuracies or problematic verdicts:
The old ones are:
The new ones are:
I am calling on Rjensen to rectify his errors, to self-revert his 4th revert and to finally address the issues (and I mean address not just leave a few sidetracking comments) here on the talk page. Str1977 (smile back) 21:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Wallie,
Str1977 (smile back) 21:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
It would be best to have a very very small intro. That was the idea of creating the overview section, as the was the old intro, and the intro was getting too big. So if there is more than say two sentences in the intro, then put some of it in the overview section. Also, think of removing stuff from the overview, and putting it in the main article. Wallie 21:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I see there has been quite a few debates on the topic. rjensen has mentioned that industrial production, technoology, materials, etc. played a significant part in the war. His table about the allies producing three times as much as the axis, subsequently removed, I found this fascinating and educational. The more I think about it, this IS an important theme, and should be covered in this article. But at what level? There are other important themes too. You know, I once saw a whole series on TV just about the impact of oil on the war. It ended with Hitler and Eva being burnt in the stuff. Any thoughts please? Wallie 08:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why you think the war was only in two "theatres". I cannot imagine dismissing the Great Patriotic War as a non event. Also, you describe the Soviet Union as being in Europe, which I find very strange, given that you live in Germany, and Germany has never really considered it as being part of Europe. In reality, much of it is in Asia. Also, I cannot understand why you do not consider this important, as the move into the Soviet Union involved many more participants than did Poland or Pearl. However, if you insist on this, it is OK, as many other issues I was irritated with have got smaller, and I am interested, as you probably are, in keeping the intro small. Wallie 22:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC) (Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Str1977")
Dear Wallie,
that is not what I am saying. Yes, the war encompassed two theatres, an European and an Asian one. European is a bit of a misnomer as this theatre also included warfare in North Africa. It also included warfare on the territory of the Soviet Union but never extended beyond the European part of Russia. Also, I cannot understand your remark about Germany not considering Russia a part of Europe. It certainly has a very distinct character and whether it belongs to Europe culturally is debatable, but here what matters is the still prevalent definition of Europe's borders at the Ural mountains and river, the Caucausus and the Bosporus/Hellespont.
We could include all kinds of details into the intro, including North Africa, or Italy's conflict with Albania and Greece. But all these events (and not "no-events") are part of the European theatre of the war - after all in 1942 all fighting on European soil was against the Soviet Union.
Str1977 (smile back) 22:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
This is getting seriously out of hand. Now it's like there are two articles. It's a shame because there is some good content getting in there, but it will have to go somewhere else. Haber 23:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I have just moved the War deaths down to the Casualteis section.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've decided to reorganise the To-Do list in an effort to make it more useful. Essentially I've added three new sub-headings: "Redirect", "Further information required" and "Done". The explanation for these headings is:
"Redirect" - use if the suggestion is best dealt with in another article (new or existing - if existing, try to specify the article)
"Further information required" - use if the suggestion is unclear or needs clarification.
"Done" use if the suggestion has been implemented and add the date that the suggestion was moved to the done section. Remove 'done' suggestions that are 1 month + old. This might seem somewhat redundant, but I think it is useful for people to see that their suggestions have been dealt with rather than simply deleted.
There is a suggestion in the To Do list:
"Axis powers like germany,Austria etc were more commonly known as the Cential Powers.Mythamrith92 15:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)"
I disagree-- Central Powers was a WWI term. During WWII these powers are commonly referred to as the Axis Powers. Ognolman 18:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Please compare the overview of this article with that of the following introduction and the rest of the American Civil War article.
The American Civil War (1861–1865) was a sectional conflict in the United States between the Federal government ("Union") and 11 southern slave states that declared their secession and formed the Confederate States of America, led by President Jefferson Davis. The "Union", led by President Abraham Lincoln and the Republican party which opposed expansion of slavery, rejected any right of secession. Fighting began April 12, 1861 when Confederate forces attacked a Federal fort at the Battle of Fort Sumter.
The whole Civil War article is not judgemental. It does not take sides and use inflamatory language such as invasion, aggression, defeat, nazi, militarism etc etc. To outsiders, the good vs evil in the American Civil War was more clearcut at the start of the war than in the similar phase of WW2. However, the writers have concentrated on facts, not just regurgitating what appears to be propoganda taught in the American school system. Correct me if I am wrong on the latter point. Wallie 20:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that User:Woogums reworded the intro in such manner that it states that the reasons of the war were different and diverse, "a combination of factors" (Treaty of Versailles, need for national self-determinism, Japanese and Italian nationalism), not only Nazis and their ideology. It even equalizes Nazism (calling it "ultra-nationalism") with Japanese and Italian ideologies (whuich are also called "ultra-nationalism"). I see this inappropriate to the encyclopedia and an intention to disperse the truth.-- Nixer 11:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
Here are the two versions:
The war was fought in response to the military aggression of Germany under Adolf Hitler, and the imperial ambitions of Japan in Asia. The majority of the fighting took place in and around Europe, where Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and later the Soviet Union, and in and around Asia and the Pacific, where Japan invaded many countries around the Northern and Western Pacific.
The main aim of the Nazi aggression was the conquest of Lebensraum (living space) for a greater German Empire at the expense of the peoples of Eastern Europe. During the war, Germany also pursued another aim, the elimination of European Jewry, which they believed had "biological base" in Eastern Europe, especially in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine.
A combination of factors, including a surge of military expansionism and ultra-nationalism in Germany, Italy, and Japan as well as the devastating effects of the Treaty of Versailles upon the German economy, are common overarching explanations for the war. Initial ostensive Nazi goals of German self-determinism evolved to a policy of Lebensraum (living space) acquisition for an expanded Germany. This expansionism led to the first major fighting in Europe when German troops attacked Poland in 1939, the traditional given date for the start of the war; this date is sometimes contested, as Japanese troops had been fighting in China since 1932. During the war, Germany also pursued another aim - that of the elimination of European Jewry, which they believed had a "biological base" in Eastern Europe, especially in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine.
The war was fought in response to the aggression of Germany under Adolf Hitler, and the ambitions of Japan in Asia. The majority of the fighting took place in and around Europe, where Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and later the Soviet Union, and in and around Asia and the Pacific, where Japan invaded many countries around the Northern and Western Pacific.
A combination of factors are held to have caused the outbreak of war. These include a surge of military expansionism and ultra-nationalism in Germany and Italy under facist governments and Japan under militarist government. The effects of the Treaty of Versailles upon the German economy following the Wall Street crash of 1929 are held to have pushed Germany into electing a Nazi government. The stated Nazi goals of German self-determinism evolved to a policy of Lebensraum (living space) - the acquisition for an expanded German Empire of lands to the east.
This led to the first major fighting in Europe when German troops attacked Poland in 1939 (following a less violent takeover of Sudentenland of Czechoslovakia the year before). The traditional date for the start of the war is given as September 1939, when Britain and France declared war on Germany in response to the attack on Poland; this date is sometimes contested, as Japanese troops had been fighting in China since 1932 whilst other countries, notably the United States, did not become involved until much later.
The war was triggered by the military aggression of Germany under Adolf Hitler, and the imperial ambitions of Japan in Asia. The main aim of the Nazi aggression was the conquest of Lebensraum (living space) for a greater German Empire at the expense of the peoples of Eastern Europe. During the war, Germany also pursued another aim, the elimination of European Jewry, which they believed had "biological base" in Eastern Europe, especially in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine.
Hi folks. I'm Redvers and I'm here to mediate in this discussion, if required, as it has been heated here in the past. Nixer called me in.
It's very good that people here are discussing calmly and rationally the development of this article, and thanks to Nixer for encouraging debate. Thanks to everybody for staying calm!
Everyone in this discussion should be fully aware of the Wikipedia Manual of Style, especially the Guide to Layout. Whilst this isn't a hard and fast rule - no Wikipedia rules are - the layout of our articles has been arrived at through several years of consensus and reader feedback.
The Guide to Layout says Normally, the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow. If further introductory material is needed before the first section, this can be covered in subsequent paragraphs. Introductions to biographical articles commonly double as summaries, listing the best-known achievements of the subject. Keep in mind that for many users this is all they will read, so the most important information should be included. Avoid links in the summary--users should be encouraged to read the summary, and the article, before jumping elsewhere. In addition the colored highlighting of the links may mislead some users into thinking these are especially important points.
I translate this as meaning that an article needs to start easy-to-read and get more detailed as it progresses. Others may disagree!
So, what does this mean in practice? As far as I can tell, the second version (from Woogums) contains many more useful extra facts, but it also has language that is pedestrian (no offense!) and doesn't allow for the Guide to Layout's request that articles start simply. The first version (again, no offense intended!) gives the conventional view of the causes of war, but it does so in better language than the second.
To me this suggests we could use a married version of the two. Now, we're never going to get a version that pleases everybody. But we might get a version that doesn't offend anybody. Or at least annoys everybody equally. We must bear in mind that we don't need to explain the concepts behind each word - the wikilinked articles should do that - but we should also be using language that an ignorant teenager who has just learned that his great-grandfather died/fought in the war would grasp with ease.
Therefore I propose the following text. It is not perfect, but this is a wiki and we can all work on it! Plus, Wikipedia has quite a number of years left, so we should allow for those who follow us to work on it as well.
The war was fought in response to the aggression of Germany under Adolf Hitler, and the ambitions of Japan in Asia. The majority of the fighting took place in and around Europe, where Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and later the Soviet Union, and in and around Asia and the Pacific, where Japan invaded many countries around the Northern and Western Pacific.
A combination of factors are held to have caused the outbreak of war. These include a surge of military expansionism and ultra-nationalism in Germany and Italy under facist governments and Japan under militarist government. The effects of the Treaty of Versailles upon the German economy following the Wall Street crash of 1929 are held to have pushed Germany into electing a Nazi government. The stated Nazi goals of German self-determinism evolved to a policy of Lebensraum (living space) - the acquisition for an expanded German Empire of lands to the east.
This led to the first major fighting in Europe when German troops attacked Poland in 1939 (following a less violent takeover of Sudentenland of Czechoslovakia the year before). The traditional date for the start of the war is given as September 1939, when Britain and France declared war on Germany in response to the attack on Poland; this date is sometimes contested, as Japanese troops had been fighting in China since 1932 whilst other countries, notably the United States, did not become involved until much later.
When does this poll end? Green caterpillar 00:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
This poll has been pretty untouched for a long time. I'll give it until September 4, 2006, 00:00 UTC, and then I'll change to whatever has the most votes.
Never mind, it's a tie. Green caterpillar 00:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
We face here the opposition by Wallie to saying the was was started by Germany because he consideres this faact as "bias against German people". Your comments.-- Nixer 07:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm deeply confused about how on earth it can be considered "racist" to point out that the Germans started World War II? Is it likewise racist to note that Prussia started the War of the Austrian Succession, that France started the Franco-Dutch War and the War of the Grand Alliance, that the United States started the Spanish-American War, that North Korea started the Korean War? A lot of wars are somewhat ambiguous as to who started them - each country escalates, one sends an ultimatum, it is rejected, a war starts. But on occasion it is not difficult to see who starts a war. This is normally true in wars that are not declared and begin with unheralded invasions of foreign countries with which one was previously at peace, a definition which fits both the German invasion of Poland in September 1939 and the Japanese attacks on American, British and Dutch forces in December 1941 (as well as, I think, Japanese aggressions in China, although I'm less familiar with the exact course of events.) It would be wrong to begin our World War I article by saying Germany started it, even though the dominant historical view at this point is probably that Germany and Austria-Hungary were much more responsible for the outbreak of war than the entente powers. But with World War II it simply isn't equivocal - everyone agrees that Germany started. Wallie needs to find some evidence that some serious historians actually believe that Germany did not start the war. This will be hard to do. Also, as Easter Monkey says, "Nazi" is not a racial slur. It's the nickname of the political party which ruled Germany from 1933 to 1945, including throughout the Second World War. If anything, use of "Nazis" actually elides German responsibility - it implies that war crimes and so forth were committed only by "Nazis," who of course no longer exist, rather than by "Germans," who do. Wallie seems to have come to the conclusion that German people believe they were fighting for a good cause in World War II, and that it is racist to present the war as being an example of aggression led by the Nazi Party. In fact, German people, like everyone else, are perfectly willing to admit that the war was aggression led by the Nazi Party. Actual German apologetics have generally relied upon the distinction that not all Germans were Nazis (true, but somewhat beside the point), and that it was the Nazi Waffen SS who committed all the atrocities, not the Wehrmacht (which is not true, but had considerable support for a long time.) But such apologetics, in fact, rely upon the idea of saying that "Nazis" do things, rather than that Germans do. The idea that using the term "Nazi" to refer to actions of the Germans during World War II is "racist" against Germans is patently absurd - Germany's strongest apologists do exactly the opposite, emphasizing that all the bad stuff was done by Nazis rather than Germans. john k 02:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The Second World War was the largest and bloodiest conflict in mankind history. It began in Europe on 1 September 1939 with the German attack on Poland without previous declaration of war of the German Reich and in the Pacific and/or in Asia with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, whereby sometimes one accepts also the outbreak of the second Japanese-Chinese war on 7 July 1937 as beginning in Asia. It was terminated in Europe on 8 May 1945 and in Asia with the signing of the surrender of Japan on 2 September 1945. The Axis powers in such a way specified, German Reich, Italy and Japan, led conquest campaigns against adjacent states, which wanted to subordinate them to their interests. Their military main opponents were at the beginning of France, Great Britain and the republic China. The Soviet Union took part in the initial phase of the war due to the Hitler valley in pact on the one hand in the German war against Poland and still attacked on the other hand in November 1939 Finland. With the end as winter war in March 1940 separated the Soviet Union admits of become campaign temporarily from the fighting. After the break of the Hitler valley in pact in form of an invasion were also the Soviet Union, committed from the German side, again and complicated after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor the USA for the first time into the fighting. The Second World War demanded approx.. 55 to 60 million human lives. It was coined/shaped by a strong racistic Ideologisierung, which to numerous war crimes and encroachment by force and mostly systematic led on the civilian population. The fact that the civilian population was directly affected in the comparison to the First World War still more strongly by the fighting lay in addition at the intensified development of the armaments industry. It made not least the wide bombardment possible of whole populated areas in Europe and Asia. After the war the alliance of winner powers broke apart. Under the guidance of the establishing superpowers Soviet Union and the USA the world-descriptive contrasts of the forming state blocks flowed into the cold war. JPotter 03:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Hallo guys, I changed the outbreak of the war passage to "The majority of the fighting took place in and around Europe, where Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and later the Soviet Union, and in and around Asia and the Pacific, where Japan invaded many countries around the Northern and Western Pacific.", as the preceding version were not acceptable:
I also merged the two passages about the extent of the war. Str1977 (smile back) 15:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Wallie, you seem to be insisting that use of "Nazi" is a racial slur. Can you provide any evidence to support the idea that the term is widely considered offensive by Germans when used to refer to the regime ruling Germany between 1933 and 1945. I am aware that Germans today are offended if they are referred to as Nazis (obviously). But that's not the same thing at all. If you can't provide any evidence, then you are just advancing your personal bugbears, which have no relevance to how we should construct an encyclopedia article about World War II. john k 20:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
If I may chime in: if used as John proposes (re the regime or the party) it is not a slur or offensive. If used against today's Germans collectively, or against persons that are not (Neo-)Nazis, or against all Germans living under the regime collectively it is offensive. What is maybe not offensive but inaccurate is the labelling of any institution member during the regime as a Nazi (unfortunately very much present in Wiki categories and articles), or the labelling of any institution (e.g. lawes predating the Nazis as Nazi Laws, military judges as Nazi judges) Also annoying is the use of Nazi replacing German, as in "the Nazis invaded Poland" or "Nazi occupation", instead of "the Germans invaded Poland" or "German occupation". (Sometimes it is fitting to say "Nazi German" but never just "Nazi") That smacks a bit of the DDR real Germany is a victor of the war mindset that has trickled in a bit into the West too. All these remarks in general, as I have no clue what that particular dispute is about. Str1977 (smile back) 20:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Wallie is claiming that two other people support his repeated reverts, removing the words "Nazi" and "Hitler" from the introduction to our encyclopedia article about WWII. Please, Wallie supporters, step forward so that you may be counted. Haber 21:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not claiming anything of the sort. This is a total misrepresentation of what I have done. I have reverted the material relating to the poll. The two other supporters are listed here:
Someone didn't even wait for the result of this poll. The old version was put back anyway. The poll is still undecided at 3/3. Wallie 21:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The Society for Military History is considering a session on Wikipedia at its annual meeting (Frederick Maryland, April 19-22, 2007). Any active editor who would like to be a panelist please contact rjensen@uic.edu Thanks Rjensen 00:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no mention of the German invasion of Yugoslavia.-- Cretanpride 12:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Please vote yea or nay, giving your reasons if you don't like this two paragraph entry. (Keep in mind that the intro contains 3 other paragraphs that would not be affected by this.)
As Wallie and Haber have stated, too much changed in the original poll for it to be useful any more. Note, I am just borrowing sentences from other writers, hoping to find a consensus. -- Habap 22:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
nay "triggered" sounds pornographic. Germany does "military aggression" while Japan has "imperial ambitions" isn't fair. "Ultra-" is a prefix that people use to show disapproval. Treaty and economy excuses are trotted out alone. Nazi policy did not evolve to Lebensraum, it was always Lebensraum. "biological base" still sounds stupid to me. The starting date controversy is pointless to introduce here when most people can't even associate WWII with the right decade. This is why kids hate historians. Late entry of U.S. is in article and too minor for intro. Fighting in Europe and Europe is redundant. USSR region where Germany fought was also in Europe.
very nay we are spending a lot of intro-space giving possible and disputed causes for the war, a subject that is incapable of reaching a final conclusion. Much more of the intro should be given over to what happened, which is easier to be factual about and which frankly most people will want to know about.
I have a radical suggestion: let's not mention the causes at all in the intro. Here's a suggested first paragraph:
I'm not claiming this version is perfect, but this approach means we don't have to spend any of the intro trying desperately to satisfy everyone about what the causes of the war were. That's not only easier but right; we lave the complex discussions until we can give them the treatment they deserve. DJ Clayworth 15:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
An odd selection - the Polish leader but not Mussolini? If Truman is in there, why not the other two British prime ministers during the war, or de Gaulle? Some are not technically commanders, but political leaders, although it's true they all had major roles in directing military operations. -- Cyclopaedic 12:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that the invasion of Greece caused the delay of the invasion of the Soviet Union? I would like to hear some thoughts?-- Sac222 03:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I saw a whole movie saying that it was the Greeks who more or less where a huge strategic turning point since it lay the germans to the russian winter- willgfass
I think these things sould be mentioned in the intro:
1. Germany invaded Poland and later the USSR because of Jewish concentration in these regions.
2. Nazis mostly successfully achieved the aim of the war - the elimination of European Jewry, though failed to achieve military victory.
-- Nixer 20:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes these things should be mentioned. No, they should not necessarily be mentioned in the intro. DJ Clayworth 21:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
You know what I think Wallie? I think Nazi Germany started the war, in Europe, because of nazi ideology which focussed on a number of things ... including proving the Germans were an master race and exterminating people who didn't live up to that. Rex 21:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding point 2 at the top of the section, I really don't believe Hitler sat down, just before he killed himself, and said "we really achieved our main objectives in this war, because we killed all the Jews". DJ Clayworth 14:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
No, for a start they didn't kill all the Jews. The war of expansion was about much more than just eliminating Jews though. It was about territory, power, lebensraum. Hitler also invaded France, which had some Jews (deported under Vichy), but that can't have been the reason behind the invasion. Although the Holocaust was a major part of WW2 and wouldn't have been possible on the same scale without it, equating the 2 things (the war and the holocaust) and assuming that all the war was about the Holocaust is just wrong. Jameskeates 08:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The intro is getting rather large, and needs to lose some weight. Wallie 23:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
If you don't like something, please don't be lazy and go back a few versions. It makes life difficult, and something good could be lost forever. Better to change, or even delete, the bit you don't like, and keep moving forwards, i.e., go with the flow. If you think of something good to say, put it in, even if it doesn't quite fit. The text can always be rearranged later by you or someone else. Wallie 20:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Many readers only read the summary (or brush up on the topic just before a test). The summary of perhaps the biggest and most complex event in history has to cover a lot of topics. Peoplewho want minimalism are better served by the War of Jenkin's Ear (yes that was a real war). The summary should have something to say about the most important land and naval and air battles, as well as some points regarding strategic goals. I suggest: mention Blitzkrieg 1940, battle of Moscow, Kursk, Normandy; u-boats, Pearl Harbor, Midway, Leyte Gulf; battle of Britain; strategic bombing of Germany; strategic nbombing of Japan. Rjensen 22:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
During a visit to the offices of the Calgary Herald newspaper I saw a copy of the front page of the 3 September 1939 issue reporting on France and the UK declaring war on Germany. The front page declares the new conflict "The Second World War". Although it's doubtful a small-city newspaper like the Herald would be the originator of the term, presumably it was applied through wire service coverage of the declaration. My question to those more well-read on the subject, is whether the use of the term by media on Sept. 3 (doesn't matter which media) constitutes the first public use of the term, or whether it might have been used even earlier. 23skidoo 22:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Finland can't be considered one of the axis powers just because it happened to be fighting Russia at the same time as Germany was. Germany took over Finland and destroyed most of it when they were leaving, they definately weren't allies!
If we've settled on this as an opening, it needs improvement in grammar at least. It also needs to be *far* less childish in tone. This is Wikipedia, not "Janet and John's Guide to World History" Well, for the moment anyway. I'm sure this opening will be completely changed in a week's time, hopefully for the better. As Haber says, "that's anarchy"... and its great! As for Janet and John, it would be best if we could keep the simplicity of style, but at the same time make it professional. This will probably happen anyway as many of us including me do not really understand the big words used by University Lecturers etc. anyway. Please keep adding to the article anyway. Someone else can always correct the grammar later... Is there an English teacher in the house? Wallie 07:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
World War II was a war fought from 1939 to 1945 in Europe, and from at least 1937 to 1945 in Asia. It was the largest armed conflict the world has ever seen, spanning the entire world and involving more countries than any previous war - and fought with powerful new weapons, culminating in the first aggressive use of two atomic bombs, whose very existence had been a tightly-held secret.
The conflict ravaged civilians more than had any previous wars of the modern era, and served as a backdrop for genocidal killings by Germany, the Soviet Union, and Japan. World War II caused a greater number of deaths, about 61 million, than any previous war.
It says that France participated until 1940. Actually they did participate beyond that date too... throughout the whole war... and in a similar way to Holland, Poland and others. Wallie 11:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Though the issue of who represented France 1940-44, deGaulle or Petain, is a tricky one, the article shouldn't state that France ceased to be an ally in 1940. Str1977 (smile back) 15:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Russia did in fact join the Allies before the US did; it never joined the Axis. France did in fact surrender in 1940. The DeGaulle regime can only be considered one of the smaller powers. Italy was not a leader of the Axis. The Axis treaty was Germany-Japan-Italy, of course. It was not a "sham" and not an Italian deal. When Italy dropped out in 1943 the term Axis was still in standard use, and remains so. Again, the details are in the article. The issue is what main points should be in the summary. They are: Britain, USA, USSR (and China) defeated Germany and Japan. That is the main story and we have to say that right away. Rjensen 18:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The opening tells who won the war and who lost--in 1945. We have to state that in as clear a form as possible. Rjensen 18:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Unlike my fellow Wikipedian Rjensen, I will not revert a fourth time and rather address the issue on the talk page again, though he did not reply to my last post.
His last edit [1] needlessly enlarged the intro by creating a second paragraph, whereas the former version was perfectly comprehensible. It also inserted old and new inaccuracies or problematic verdicts:
The old ones are:
The new ones are:
I am calling on Rjensen to rectify his errors, to self-revert his 4th revert and to finally address the issues (and I mean address not just leave a few sidetracking comments) here on the talk page. Str1977 (smile back) 21:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Wallie,
Str1977 (smile back) 21:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
It would be best to have a very very small intro. That was the idea of creating the overview section, as the was the old intro, and the intro was getting too big. So if there is more than say two sentences in the intro, then put some of it in the overview section. Also, think of removing stuff from the overview, and putting it in the main article. Wallie 21:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I see there has been quite a few debates on the topic. rjensen has mentioned that industrial production, technoology, materials, etc. played a significant part in the war. His table about the allies producing three times as much as the axis, subsequently removed, I found this fascinating and educational. The more I think about it, this IS an important theme, and should be covered in this article. But at what level? There are other important themes too. You know, I once saw a whole series on TV just about the impact of oil on the war. It ended with Hitler and Eva being burnt in the stuff. Any thoughts please? Wallie 08:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why you think the war was only in two "theatres". I cannot imagine dismissing the Great Patriotic War as a non event. Also, you describe the Soviet Union as being in Europe, which I find very strange, given that you live in Germany, and Germany has never really considered it as being part of Europe. In reality, much of it is in Asia. Also, I cannot understand why you do not consider this important, as the move into the Soviet Union involved many more participants than did Poland or Pearl. However, if you insist on this, it is OK, as many other issues I was irritated with have got smaller, and I am interested, as you probably are, in keeping the intro small. Wallie 22:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC) (Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Str1977")
Dear Wallie,
that is not what I am saying. Yes, the war encompassed two theatres, an European and an Asian one. European is a bit of a misnomer as this theatre also included warfare in North Africa. It also included warfare on the territory of the Soviet Union but never extended beyond the European part of Russia. Also, I cannot understand your remark about Germany not considering Russia a part of Europe. It certainly has a very distinct character and whether it belongs to Europe culturally is debatable, but here what matters is the still prevalent definition of Europe's borders at the Ural mountains and river, the Caucausus and the Bosporus/Hellespont.
We could include all kinds of details into the intro, including North Africa, or Italy's conflict with Albania and Greece. But all these events (and not "no-events") are part of the European theatre of the war - after all in 1942 all fighting on European soil was against the Soviet Union.
Str1977 (smile back) 22:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
This is getting seriously out of hand. Now it's like there are two articles. It's a shame because there is some good content getting in there, but it will have to go somewhere else. Haber 23:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I have just moved the War deaths down to the Casualteis section.