World Trade Center cross was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
April 6, 2006. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that a
cross was found amidst the debris of the
September 11, 2001 attacks? | |||||||||||||
Current status: Former good article nominee |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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What is the blue stuff wrapped on the left arm of the cross? Circeus 14:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- It looks like a shred of aluminum, it's present in both of the images on the page. - Richardevan 18:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
http://static.flickr.com/12/19161085_9d35c5e466_m.jpg
http://www.dmatfl2.org/images/WTC%20CROSS.JPG
I can't be sure from the image, but the cross looks to me like it is made from sections of a column and two beams, not simply "two beams" in the opening sentence of the article. Perhaps it's a technicality -- but I like accurate details. If anyone can, please confirm. Thanks. — Eoghanacht talk 14:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
My original point was lost. I don't doubt that it was found like that, and did not imply that it was made "after the fact." Rather, beams and columns although they look similar, are different structural elements and the steel is fabricated in different shapes. I don't have enough detail to go on from the picture, but it looks like a column/beam connection, rather than something else, like a girder/beam connection. — Eoghanacht talk 20:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the following addition:
While this may be true, Wikipedia is NOT a publisher of original thought (specifically 5. Opinions on current affairs). Find a reliable source that voices such an opinion (maybe a skeptics journal or something) and it's justifiable to include. Until then it's an opinion. Staxringold 21:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The Good article nomination for World Trade Center cross has failed for the following reason:
Hi all, just wanted to say that as a "neutral and unbiased" observer, I found the tone in this article somewhat too sympathetic. Clearly, great pains have been taken to make it NPOV, with excellent use of references etc. But, we are, after all, talking about two lumps of steel which coincidentally resemble a cross. Sentences like "Some saw the crossed metal as a Christian cross and felt its survival was symbolic." seem excessively sentimental for the cold-hearted encyclopaedia we're trying to be. Perhaps even replacing "some" with "Certain elements of the American Christian community" or something. Presumably there are also newspaper articles with people saying "it's just two lumps of steel, it's not a cross", but these are not referenced anywhere.
I would also suggest that the introductory sentence "which closely resembles a Christian cross" is mildly too sympathetic. Maybe there's a more objective way of putting it, like "whose arms cross in similar proportions to the Christian cross", or even, "which is claimed by certain groups to resemble a Christian cross".
I offer these remarks not as criticism, but to try and be helpful, it's really a good (if not yet very lengthy) article :) Stevage 22:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
"Those with access to the site used the cross as a shrine of sorts" - everyone who had access to the site did? Was it five people, or five hundred thousand? What kind of shrine? A religious one, or a memorial to the dead?
After a few weeks within the cleanup site the cross was an impediment to nearby work, so Silecchia and others working on the project received an expedited approval from the office of New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani to erect it on a pedestal on a portion of the former plaza on Church Street near Liberty - the tone is just wrong here. It's a narrative that takes the reader inside Silecchia's head, explaining his motivations. Better would be something like:
Several weeks after the attacks, the cross was moved to a pedestal in a plaza on nearby Church Street. Then Mayor Rudy (Rudolph?) Giuliani explained that the cross had become an impediment to recovery work. (Note that the fact Silecchia applied for approval to move it is probably not really relevant to anything)
Some saw the crossed metal as a Christian cross and felt its survival was symbolic. It was spoken over by a reverend who declared it to be a "symbol of hope... [a] symbol of faith... [a] symbol of healing". The cross had a profound effect on those with a personal connection to the disaster.
Ok, lots of problems here. "Some" definitely needs clarification. What does "spoken over" mean? Is this act by a single reverend relevant? What is, objectively speaking, "a profound effect"? Did it affect Muslims, atheists and Jews the same way? Perhaps that sentence could read more like "Several visitors to the cross, who had lost relatives, said in local newspapers that they felt profoundly moved by its appearance.[cite]"
The cross even inspired laborers on "The Pile" to get tattoos.[16] - "even" and "inspired" lack neutrality. Why not something like "Several workers at "The Pile" (what's that?) got tatoos in the form of the WTC cross, citing the inspirational event" or something.
They feel that since the memorial is to be financed with public funds, - "feel" is inappropriate. "Argue" is usually better, with a citation. The past tense is usually more formal and appropriate for an encyclopaedia, as well.
Oh wait. That whole paragraph is a copyvio from snopes and needs to be deleted anyway. Hmm. Stevage 13:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm searching through a news archives database and found a transcript of the CBS Early Show, from October 2001, with Frank Silecchia and Father Brian Jordan. They explain there that the cross beam came from WTC1 and landed in the midst of the WTC6 debris. I have changed the text accordingly. But, for now I left in the other sentence "The design of WTC 4, 5, and 6 used a column-tree system, where a 4-foot stub was welded on each side of a column, then a smaller floor beam was bolted to the end of the stub.[2]" which may be irrelevant here. We should talk more broadly about the cross beams (various types) used in the WTC — not just WTC6. - Aude ( talk | contribs) 13:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid to say that despite many good points, parts of this article are not yet up to the broadness standards necessary to award Good Article status. The major obstacle is the section==Cultural Response==, which needs elaboration and further references:
The use of references and images in the article is excellent, as is the overall structure. I wish all concerned all the very best in the next renomination. If you would like me to provide more comments once the above concerns have been addressed, I would certainly be willing. -- Vinoir 17:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't get it. The caption of an accompanying picture states that such a shape is common in skyscraper construction and is to be expected in any structural failure such as this one. Should the article be expanded to state that this is a likely by-product of a structural collapse instead? CoolGuy 06:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Has this got anything to do with the cross of nails and the City of Coventry? After Coventry was badly bombed in the Blitz they used two beams from the destroyed Cathedral to build a cross. Any links here? http://www.crossofnails.org/news/item.php?id=57
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 01:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
now has various disabilities.
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 01:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
First line says opposition by atheist groups but only one, American Atheists, is cited. Line should either have citations of other groups or be re-worded. Funeralrob ( talk) 13:04, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
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I removed a line about it being unknown whether American Atheists still opposed the Ground Zero Cross in 2014 (a year when they were actively litigating to have the cross removed). I believe this language was misinterpreting the Snopes article, which had an "outdated" logo merely indicating the lawsuit was not an ongoing event. Snopes is a website used for fact-check posts you see on your Facebook and email feed, so distinguishing when something is a past event makes sense for Snopes. I don't see a corresponding need for Wikipedia to do this; the fact the lawsuit is not ongoing is already directly stated in the article. Spirit of Eagle ( talk) 23:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
World Trade Center cross was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
April 6, 2006. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that a
cross was found amidst the debris of the
September 11, 2001 attacks? | |||||||||||||
Current status: Former good article nominee |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
What is the blue stuff wrapped on the left arm of the cross? Circeus 14:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- It looks like a shred of aluminum, it's present in both of the images on the page. - Richardevan 18:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
http://static.flickr.com/12/19161085_9d35c5e466_m.jpg
http://www.dmatfl2.org/images/WTC%20CROSS.JPG
I can't be sure from the image, but the cross looks to me like it is made from sections of a column and two beams, not simply "two beams" in the opening sentence of the article. Perhaps it's a technicality -- but I like accurate details. If anyone can, please confirm. Thanks. — Eoghanacht talk 14:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
My original point was lost. I don't doubt that it was found like that, and did not imply that it was made "after the fact." Rather, beams and columns although they look similar, are different structural elements and the steel is fabricated in different shapes. I don't have enough detail to go on from the picture, but it looks like a column/beam connection, rather than something else, like a girder/beam connection. — Eoghanacht talk 20:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the following addition:
While this may be true, Wikipedia is NOT a publisher of original thought (specifically 5. Opinions on current affairs). Find a reliable source that voices such an opinion (maybe a skeptics journal or something) and it's justifiable to include. Until then it's an opinion. Staxringold 21:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The Good article nomination for World Trade Center cross has failed for the following reason:
Hi all, just wanted to say that as a "neutral and unbiased" observer, I found the tone in this article somewhat too sympathetic. Clearly, great pains have been taken to make it NPOV, with excellent use of references etc. But, we are, after all, talking about two lumps of steel which coincidentally resemble a cross. Sentences like "Some saw the crossed metal as a Christian cross and felt its survival was symbolic." seem excessively sentimental for the cold-hearted encyclopaedia we're trying to be. Perhaps even replacing "some" with "Certain elements of the American Christian community" or something. Presumably there are also newspaper articles with people saying "it's just two lumps of steel, it's not a cross", but these are not referenced anywhere.
I would also suggest that the introductory sentence "which closely resembles a Christian cross" is mildly too sympathetic. Maybe there's a more objective way of putting it, like "whose arms cross in similar proportions to the Christian cross", or even, "which is claimed by certain groups to resemble a Christian cross".
I offer these remarks not as criticism, but to try and be helpful, it's really a good (if not yet very lengthy) article :) Stevage 22:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
"Those with access to the site used the cross as a shrine of sorts" - everyone who had access to the site did? Was it five people, or five hundred thousand? What kind of shrine? A religious one, or a memorial to the dead?
After a few weeks within the cleanup site the cross was an impediment to nearby work, so Silecchia and others working on the project received an expedited approval from the office of New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani to erect it on a pedestal on a portion of the former plaza on Church Street near Liberty - the tone is just wrong here. It's a narrative that takes the reader inside Silecchia's head, explaining his motivations. Better would be something like:
Several weeks after the attacks, the cross was moved to a pedestal in a plaza on nearby Church Street. Then Mayor Rudy (Rudolph?) Giuliani explained that the cross had become an impediment to recovery work. (Note that the fact Silecchia applied for approval to move it is probably not really relevant to anything)
Some saw the crossed metal as a Christian cross and felt its survival was symbolic. It was spoken over by a reverend who declared it to be a "symbol of hope... [a] symbol of faith... [a] symbol of healing". The cross had a profound effect on those with a personal connection to the disaster.
Ok, lots of problems here. "Some" definitely needs clarification. What does "spoken over" mean? Is this act by a single reverend relevant? What is, objectively speaking, "a profound effect"? Did it affect Muslims, atheists and Jews the same way? Perhaps that sentence could read more like "Several visitors to the cross, who had lost relatives, said in local newspapers that they felt profoundly moved by its appearance.[cite]"
The cross even inspired laborers on "The Pile" to get tattoos.[16] - "even" and "inspired" lack neutrality. Why not something like "Several workers at "The Pile" (what's that?) got tatoos in the form of the WTC cross, citing the inspirational event" or something.
They feel that since the memorial is to be financed with public funds, - "feel" is inappropriate. "Argue" is usually better, with a citation. The past tense is usually more formal and appropriate for an encyclopaedia, as well.
Oh wait. That whole paragraph is a copyvio from snopes and needs to be deleted anyway. Hmm. Stevage 13:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm searching through a news archives database and found a transcript of the CBS Early Show, from October 2001, with Frank Silecchia and Father Brian Jordan. They explain there that the cross beam came from WTC1 and landed in the midst of the WTC6 debris. I have changed the text accordingly. But, for now I left in the other sentence "The design of WTC 4, 5, and 6 used a column-tree system, where a 4-foot stub was welded on each side of a column, then a smaller floor beam was bolted to the end of the stub.[2]" which may be irrelevant here. We should talk more broadly about the cross beams (various types) used in the WTC — not just WTC6. - Aude ( talk | contribs) 13:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid to say that despite many good points, parts of this article are not yet up to the broadness standards necessary to award Good Article status. The major obstacle is the section==Cultural Response==, which needs elaboration and further references:
The use of references and images in the article is excellent, as is the overall structure. I wish all concerned all the very best in the next renomination. If you would like me to provide more comments once the above concerns have been addressed, I would certainly be willing. -- Vinoir 17:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't get it. The caption of an accompanying picture states that such a shape is common in skyscraper construction and is to be expected in any structural failure such as this one. Should the article be expanded to state that this is a likely by-product of a structural collapse instead? CoolGuy 06:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Has this got anything to do with the cross of nails and the City of Coventry? After Coventry was badly bombed in the Blitz they used two beams from the destroyed Cathedral to build a cross. Any links here? http://www.crossofnails.org/news/item.php?id=57
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 01:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
now has various disabilities.
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 01:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
First line says opposition by atheist groups but only one, American Atheists, is cited. Line should either have citations of other groups or be re-worded. Funeralrob ( talk) 13:04, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:43, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I removed a line about it being unknown whether American Atheists still opposed the Ground Zero Cross in 2014 (a year when they were actively litigating to have the cross removed). I believe this language was misinterpreting the Snopes article, which had an "outdated" logo merely indicating the lawsuit was not an ongoing event. Snopes is a website used for fact-check posts you see on your Facebook and email feed, so distinguishing when something is a past event makes sense for Snopes. I don't see a corresponding need for Wikipedia to do this; the fact the lawsuit is not ongoing is already directly stated in the article. Spirit of Eagle ( talk) 23:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)