![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
The review itself is archived (see the top of the main talk page), but by no means all the ideas form the "to do" list have been worked on.
We do want to attempt Featured Article Status with this, so please look at the actions and grab one and work steadily through it. Fiddle Faddle 12:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Since being spun out of the 9/11CT article, this article has improved steadily. This goes especially for the sources, though a few non-RS's may remain. There are some factual questions as well that need to be looked at. One of them may be the official "fire-induced" collapse of WTC 7. My view on that is that the article follows the official sources very closely and gets the issue right. But we can talk about that. It's not about POV any longer, it's about getting the details of the controversy right.-- Thomas Basboll 06:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
As Durin notes above, we've been over this before. In any case, on page 4 of the FEMA report (which the section cites), we are told that among the buildings surrounding the towers "two steel-framed structures experienced fire-induced collapse". These are named as WTC 5 and 7. The report then says that "the collapse of these structures is particularly significant in that, prior to these events, no protected steel-frame structure, the most common form of large commercial construction in the United States, had ever experienced a fire-induced collapse. Thus, these events may highlight new building vulnerabilities, not previously believed to exist." As I see it, FEMA and the CDers simply agree on the "particular significance" of the collapse of Building 7. They disagree about the most likely explanation. And that is all the article says. Now, I know that various debunkers have emphasized the damage to WTC 7, but I have not yet found any official support for the idea that whatever debris damage there may have been turns the collapses into something other than "fire-induced" (even building 5, which was very badly damaged as far as I recall, is described in this way). If there is a source that can correct my impression of this then this just means we have to note that the CDH emerged as an attempt to solve an (officially recognized) puzzle about WTC 7 that was eventually (officially) solved by the discovery of sufficient structural damage. Like I say, my sense of the status of the investigations, however, is that its still a fire theory.-- Thomas Basboll 09:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Subject(s) of 911ct are mutually exclusive and name violets wp:npov, wp:wta… and so on… I would (yet again) kindly ask that this template is removed until we reach some sort of neutral ground. As you may have noticed, this already resulted in edit warring between quite a # of editors; as a result, template and some of related pages were/are locked in very unfortunate state and with extremely poor wording. Lovelight 15:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Though I don't think the template issue is very pressing, let me offer three sources. Bazant and Verdure say that there are outsiders trying to prove a conspiracy with explosives. Then there is the "Professors of Paranoia" Chronicle of Higher Education piece. And, finally, there is David Ray Griffin, who pretty openly -- if somewhat ironically -- calls his view (which includes CD) a conspiracy theory. That means we've got the label on both sides (though in non-neutral terms) and down the middle (journalism).-- Thomas Basboll 16:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
"A phone call could have cleared up these misconceptions," Fetzer said, "but Alfonso probably knew how he wanted to spin this. We have proven that the official account cannot possibly be true and are trying to figure out how it was done." He smiled and said, "It is ironic that more accurate information about Scholars for 9/11 Truth can be found in
HUSTLER than on CBS NEWS," adding, "and they say that the standards of journalism in this country are slipping!"
[1]
Lovelight
18:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Tom Harrison Talk 18:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Template:911cd has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Tom Harrison Talk 17:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
"Give due notice. Please consider adding {{subst:tfdnotice|TemplateName}} --~~~~ on relevant talk pages to inform editors of the deletion discussion. This is especially important if the TFD notice was put on the template's talk page." -
Wikipedia:Templates for deletion
Tom Harrison
Talk
18:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Re [2], what are the reliable sources for the plumes being anything other than "material ejected due to the evacuation of air as the floors collapsed?" And I see you restored the phrase 'official theory.' Tom Harrison Talk 23:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is Tom Harrison posting articles from "Rense" as representative of the 9/11 truth movement researchers? Rense is never linked to from the main 9/11 websites, never appears at conferences, never has done a book on 9/11 and promotes hoaxes that 99% of the 9/11 researchers have openly exposed, like the 'Jews Did It' claim that Tom keeps trying to smear everyone with - Holocaust deniers push hoaxes that sabotage 9/11 Truth Movement, Holocaust Denial Versus 9/11 Truth, etc. Find one significant 9/11 site - not a UFO hoax site like Rense, which is obviously not a 9/11 site - that promotes the idea that Silverstein being Jewish had anything to do with his being focused on. Go ahead and show me. No significant site would ever promote this because we are not anti-semites, as much as it is Tom's goal to smear this group of activists with UFO and anti-semitic writings. He's posted Rense around before but it does not represent the movement. bov 01:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
They even stated the reasons for it's collapse (I.E. the official lie) 20 minutes before the event occurred. **BUSTED!!!** Revealing, shocking video shows reporter talking about collapse with WTC 7 still standing in background, Google removes clip. An astounding video uncovered from the archives today shows the BBC reporting on the collapse of WTC Building 7 over twenty minutes before it fell at 5:20pm on the afternoon of 9/11. The incredible footage shows BBC reporter Jane Standley talking about the collapse of the Salomon Brothers Building while it remains standing in the live shot behind her head. www.infowarscom/articles/sept11/bbc_reported_wtc_7_collapsed_20_min_before_it_fell.htm unreliable fringe source?
Looks like a whole lot of misrepresentation of the facts. The BBC has stated that if they did claim the building was collapsing, it was an error in their reporting. But that won't stop the conpsiracy theory nonsense peddlers since they can make more money by pushing their idiocy down our throats.-- Beguiled 11:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html-- Beguiled 11:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it just didn't fall at free-fall speeds and took 20 minutes to finish falling down. --
Tbeatty
07:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I was saddened to see that Thomas Basboll has quit editing from wikipedia - he created this page and he did a fantastic job of keeping it one of the very few neutral pages on the issue of the alternatives to the official version of 9/11 in existance. I hope he will consider returning. bov 17:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I have largely expanded on this section since it seems to be the crux of arguments made by both proponents and detractors of the demolition hypothesis. I have added in additional information from NIST as well as the comments of NCST members about the adequacy of recovered steel at the WTC.
( RationalRich 02:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC))
I was dismayed to see that someone (not necessarily Rich) has reinserted the unsourced criminal accusation regarding the debris removal. Again, if someone has made this accusation, cite it. If not, it doesn't exist for Wikipedia's purposes. Gazpacho 07:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
FY 2007 Information Quality Request for Corrections… just stumbled on this one, think it's interesting, and relevant… check it out. - Lovelight 10:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Letters that some conspiracy cranks sent to a federal department? Sure, we'll get right on that. I did get a laugh out of this interview with Judy Wood, though. Gazpacho 21:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Gazpacho, sorry, I was looking at the wrong ref. But the next question is, what is nistreview.org, and are they a reliable source? Tom Harrison Talk 01:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I think Quintiere's own reliability is what matters, and NCSTAC thought it appropriate to mention his objections in its report to Congress. Gazpacho 02:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Leaving aside the perennial question of original reserch by synthesis, have they accurately reproduced his letter? And again, what is nistreview.org? Tom Harrison Talk 02:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
You can e-mail him to confirm that he wrote it. I don't know what nistreview.org is and don't think it matters. Gazpacho 02:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't really meets our standards of verifiabliity. I don't think the sourcing is adequate to include this. Maybe others have a different view. Tom Harrison Talk 02:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Tom, I see what you mean about original research. If someone can't come up with a CDH advocate who has criticized the debris removal in print, then whole section has problems. This article is solely about the CDH and the controversy surrounding the CDH. Gazpacho 03:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment Quintiere's remarks do not belong in this article unless we can say (and I haven't checked this out), "Tarpley cites Quintiere's critique of..." But he does seem to belong in the collapse of the World Trade Center article. See this story in the New Scientist [5]. There is a debris removal section in the collapse article, as well as a history section for developments of the theory. It may fit in there somewhere. Note the date of this article (2003). The collapse mechanism has in fact been officially revised since then. He may have been an influence, but this is also not something I've looked at yet. I think the risk of leaving it in here is definitely OR by synthesis. Q.'s criticism are not intended to imply CD.-- Thomas Basboll 13:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Is this Youtube Video enough to source information about Jones describing iron-rich droplets found in the dust from WTC and him using this as a proof for very high temperatures during WTC collapse? Or should we wait until something is published? SalvNaut 01:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Judy Wood and Morgan Reynolds are openly rejected by almost everyone in the movement and are described as "agents" regularly and openly. Numerous scientists and engineers have refuted their ridiculous claims in papers in the Journal of 9/11 Studies (at least 8 letters are dedicated to that here). Physicist Greg Jenkins did the video interview with Wood to help the people to understand her thinking process (I guess some people on here don't realize that he supports the controlled demolition theory). To get a sense of what people think of these 'researchers' WITHIN the movement, read the average opinions of these people on the popular comment site, 911Blogger here, here, here, here, etc. They should not be on the top of this page without a significant qualification regarding the viewpoint that most people have of them -- "they don't speak for us." bov 06:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
What makes their disinformation any different from the rest of the disinformation? It sees that if we subject these two people to 'significant qualification' we would need to do it for the lot of them. -- Tbeatty 06:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment In my opinion neither 911blogger nor the Journal of 9/11 Studies should be taken as a reliable primary source of what the hypothesis says. I think they are being used in that way in the disputed passage. This article will get out of hand if everything that is posted and published in those sources can be taken as representative of the hypothesis. We have generally stuck to books printed by publishers who also print books about other things, and only in one case (which we could discuss the wisdom of) cited the J of 9/11 S. The only other link to J of 9/11 S is Jones's paper, which is of course available there, but it was first published elsewhere. It's appearence in J of 9/11 S is with the permission of a reputable publisher. Griffin and Tarpley also have publishers behind them. I think including the space beams idea sets a precedent that lowers the standard of citation. I am still involved in dispute resolution related to this page, so I'll leave my comments at that.-- Thomas Basboll 11:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Clarification Sources are reliable or not based on who publishes them, not what they say. Interlink is a reputable publisher of books on all sorts of topics. J of 9/11 Studies does not have the backing of a reputable publisher, and clearly has an agenda in relation to this topic. We must carefully select our sources based on the criteria for RS. To indiscriminately report all claims that the WTC was demolished would not result in a good article.-- Thomas Basboll 11:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There are two problems with the sentence about Reynolds and Wood in the lead. First, the sources (J 9/11 S and 911blogger) are pretty weak. I don't think they can justify including the information. Second, the idea isn't mentioned again anywhere in the article. So it introduces a topic that is not developed further, which is a bit confusing. I think the best way forward is to find some more weighty sources, then decide how the idea should be presented in the main text, and only then summarize the idea in the lead. A better way to do the last part might be to remove "explosives", simply leaving the questin of what exactly brought the buildings down open. We could then have a section on "devices" (where the thermite info would also go.) But it depends on how important we decide the idea is and whether it is even serious enough to mention.-- Thomas Basboll 15:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should try to assess the relative kookiness of these theories. The question is where to draw the line for including stuff. As MONGO points out, this article can't be allowed to become a platform to promote any old idea about how the WTC was brought down, posted on any old website. My question: are the sources for the Wood and Reynold's claim up the standard of WP:RS? In my opinion, they are not.-- Thomas Basboll 19:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I've moved old discussions from December through the end of January to a new archive page. If you wish to continue any of the discussions that have been archived, please do not edit the Archive page. Instead, create a new comment section here, and link to the Archive page for others to read. -- Kesh 05:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Who is connecting this with the WTC? Gazpacho 22:13, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories/Archive 4 page. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
- Debeo Morium: to be morally bound ( Talk | Contribs) 21:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
uh actually I just exposed that nonsense approach as the article doesn't say the bridge collapsed from fire, but an exploding tanker truck, cheers Aqwiz 07:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Taking two sources that use different metrics for measuring fire temperatures is very dangerous and in the latest case, wrong. Jet fuel and diesel are practically identical (see this and "comparison of fuel properties" diesel is the same as jet fuel). By the source provided, Jet Fuel (diesel) max flame temperature (again, this is different than open air fire temperature) is 2054 C while gasoline is 1977 C. I have deleted all comparisons as they are both wrong and original research. -- Tbeatty 06:57, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's] more data that correlates that Diesel and Jet-A are almost identical and that diesel burns hotter as from the source User:SalvNaut provided.
-- Tbeatty 07:23, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I made small but critical edits (which have been removed) to the controlled demolition article in the interest of preserving neutrality. But I do have a POV on this difficult subject and it is inevitable that my POV would influence any changes that I made. The controlled demolition article on the events of September 11, 2001 and all articles relating to reasonable, scientific and well-documented alternative theories to the highly dubious stories offered by US government agencies to explain what really happened that day seem to be the subject of routine censorship and blatant bias by some wiki participants. For example, Dr. Wood, who is plainly a "notable" person by any reasonable standard, has no entry in wikipedia whatsoever. This is oppressive and constitutes censorship. Others may not agree with alternative theories or the individuals, like Dr. Wood and Dr. Stephen Jones who espouse them, but that does justify eliminating or marginalizing information concerning them.
I really think that POV is unavoidable. Perhaps there is a better way.
Different POVs? Different Articles.
wikipedia obviously has a problem with subjects that become highly political and controversial. While the practice of locking or deleting articles may be intended to preserve neutrality and objectivity, it is rightly or wrongly perceived as censorship and suppression of information. I don't think that it is reasonable or even possible to try and achieve perfect neutrality on intensely disputed issues. On those subjects where there are irreconcilable POVs Why not have two or more articles which are satisfactory to differing POVs?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Thurn X ( talk • contribs) 12:50, June 16, 2007
A futile idealism guides the wiki policy of neutrality. In pursuing this idea of neutrality wiki is creating articles with a two dimensional objectivity. And depending on the motives of those influencing the articles, a charade of objectivity masking prejudiced and biased perspectives.
Thurn X
15:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
This article will ever fail at being neutral and encyclopedic. Take a look at some content on it now. For example, "Several journalists reporting on the events speculated that the World Trade Center collapses were caused by intentionally planted explosives" Excuse me? Since when did journalists become demolitions experts? I could just as well say "some inmates at a local insane asylum speculated that peregrine falcons were seen pecking at the sides of the buildings immediately before collapse". So WHAT if journalists speculated? Who gives a flying leap what journalists think? -- Durin 12:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
"While, strictly speaking, superfluous, one of the effects of a more detailed modeling of the progressive collapse, they say, could be to "dispel the myth of planted explosives".[13] To date, however, no such detailed model has been put forward."
I think it's done, now : Purdue study supports WTC collapse findings (And there is a fancy video on Youtube : [8]) Kromsson 15:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately this study shines no light on the collapse itself or the collapse cause. To this day, I could only find one scientific paper on this study (and it was about animation software not the impact itself) - it seems that the study has not been peer reviewed (yet?). If any, the only addition would be confirmation of fireproofing having been (allegedly) widely dislodged. However, except from few statements we have no other indication of this finding. Personally, I see no way how this study could prove that, as it can be seen in the video, the WTC model uses very simplified interior - it's basically steel wireframe only - no cement, walls, furniture. I don't think that it would be possible to derive information from this model about what happened to fireproofing that was on the steel columns which were covered by walls and other things.
While involved scientists claim that this study supports NIST findings, it in fact barely touches the NIST conclusion that fire caused columns to buckle and collapse. Purdue's study does nothing except for modeling the crash, there is no explosion or fire modeling included, of course no collapse is modeled. Fuel from the plane never ignites, so it's kinetic energy is contained instead of being transfered to explosion energy. And they try to claim that: "a flash flood of flaming liquid" knocked out a number of structural columns within the building and removed the fireproofing. I would like to read how in the world they draw that conclusion, anybody can point me somewhere?
Another point is that this study cannot be in any way named "independent". The Study was funded by the National Science Foundation, a federal agency created by Congress in 1950 "to promote the progress of science; to advance the national health, prosperity, and welfare; to secure the national defense…". The board of the NSF was appointed by George W. Bush. Its director, Dr. Arden L. Bement Jr, has worked for the Department of defense, where he was under secretary for research and engineering, and DARPA (the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency), which is responsible for the development of new technology for use by the military and famed for its black op projects and offshoot offices.
Conveniently, last year the Bush Administration doubled the NSF's budget to $6.02 billion. This could explain why involved scientists so eagerly claim that this study supports another government funded study, i.e. NIST report.
The structural engineer involved in this study, Mr. Sozen, is heavily involved in government funded science. Please refer to this article and text-search for Sozen. He has for many years worked for the US Department of Defense (DOD) through the Blast Mitigation for Structures Program... interesting enough, isn't it? SalvNaut 20:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I changed the reference to squibs back to 'possibly' from 'supposedly' for two reasons. First, the context of the paragraph it is contained in is from the viewpoint of the 'proponents', thus a skeptical qualifier is not warranted, and is incorrect. Secondly, in this context, 'supposedly' violates WP:WTA. Dreadstar † 17:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Having learned that the towers bent inwards by their floors before they collapsed, and thinking of that they should have bent into the direction where the planes hit them (which seems to be the first edge to smash the lower sections in the Videos), wouldn't then the upper towers outer shape be smaller than the lower towers inner one? So that the outer walls of the upper section would "fall" into the lower part of the tower causing four effects:
(1)once the part of the falling upper tower with full shape reaches these sections wouldn't it cause the lower towers skin to burst apart with much energy -> parts of the skin getting thrown far away.
(2) will more of the upper part of the towers shape become smaller, as bursting off the under skin compresses the shape of the falling tower part, making the falling, non skin-blasting part longer?
(3)As the outer walls are rather solid compared to the floors that connect them to the inner columns, wouldn't these walls cut through the floors they fall through like a knife that falls into a wet paper and thus accelerate the fall?
(4) Could this cause the effect that you can see "squibs" ahead of the demolition, where the outer skin is still intact, but the inner floors yet have been cut through, and windows are blown out by the pressure of the building combusting?
“ | although the Director of Public Affairs at the Directed Energy Directorate, Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico says Dr Judy Wood's 9/11 directed energy weapon evidence is "interesting and worthy of further consideration". [9] | ” |
is not actually supported by the reference. The relevant clause from the letter is:
“ | While on a personal level I may find Dr Wood's investigation interesting and worthy of further consideration, .... | ” |
. This doesn't actually say he does find it "interesting and worthy of further consideration. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
As unrelated comment: just fyi, I noticed that "Complete Truth" mentions that his blog is "911researchers.com". This is a site which functions as a gossip column to primarily attack other researchers and attempt to create disruptions amongst activists, filing lawsuits, saying that activists are terrorists, even attacking a victim's widow which was the purpose of this articlein the New York Post on the "lunatic fringe" elements, Rick Siegel and Nico Haupt.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
The review itself is archived (see the top of the main talk page), but by no means all the ideas form the "to do" list have been worked on.
We do want to attempt Featured Article Status with this, so please look at the actions and grab one and work steadily through it. Fiddle Faddle 12:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Since being spun out of the 9/11CT article, this article has improved steadily. This goes especially for the sources, though a few non-RS's may remain. There are some factual questions as well that need to be looked at. One of them may be the official "fire-induced" collapse of WTC 7. My view on that is that the article follows the official sources very closely and gets the issue right. But we can talk about that. It's not about POV any longer, it's about getting the details of the controversy right.-- Thomas Basboll 06:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
As Durin notes above, we've been over this before. In any case, on page 4 of the FEMA report (which the section cites), we are told that among the buildings surrounding the towers "two steel-framed structures experienced fire-induced collapse". These are named as WTC 5 and 7. The report then says that "the collapse of these structures is particularly significant in that, prior to these events, no protected steel-frame structure, the most common form of large commercial construction in the United States, had ever experienced a fire-induced collapse. Thus, these events may highlight new building vulnerabilities, not previously believed to exist." As I see it, FEMA and the CDers simply agree on the "particular significance" of the collapse of Building 7. They disagree about the most likely explanation. And that is all the article says. Now, I know that various debunkers have emphasized the damage to WTC 7, but I have not yet found any official support for the idea that whatever debris damage there may have been turns the collapses into something other than "fire-induced" (even building 5, which was very badly damaged as far as I recall, is described in this way). If there is a source that can correct my impression of this then this just means we have to note that the CDH emerged as an attempt to solve an (officially recognized) puzzle about WTC 7 that was eventually (officially) solved by the discovery of sufficient structural damage. Like I say, my sense of the status of the investigations, however, is that its still a fire theory.-- Thomas Basboll 09:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Subject(s) of 911ct are mutually exclusive and name violets wp:npov, wp:wta… and so on… I would (yet again) kindly ask that this template is removed until we reach some sort of neutral ground. As you may have noticed, this already resulted in edit warring between quite a # of editors; as a result, template and some of related pages were/are locked in very unfortunate state and with extremely poor wording. Lovelight 15:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Though I don't think the template issue is very pressing, let me offer three sources. Bazant and Verdure say that there are outsiders trying to prove a conspiracy with explosives. Then there is the "Professors of Paranoia" Chronicle of Higher Education piece. And, finally, there is David Ray Griffin, who pretty openly -- if somewhat ironically -- calls his view (which includes CD) a conspiracy theory. That means we've got the label on both sides (though in non-neutral terms) and down the middle (journalism).-- Thomas Basboll 16:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
"A phone call could have cleared up these misconceptions," Fetzer said, "but Alfonso probably knew how he wanted to spin this. We have proven that the official account cannot possibly be true and are trying to figure out how it was done." He smiled and said, "It is ironic that more accurate information about Scholars for 9/11 Truth can be found in
HUSTLER than on CBS NEWS," adding, "and they say that the standards of journalism in this country are slipping!"
[1]
Lovelight
18:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Tom Harrison Talk 18:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Template:911cd has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Tom Harrison Talk 17:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
"Give due notice. Please consider adding {{subst:tfdnotice|TemplateName}} --~~~~ on relevant talk pages to inform editors of the deletion discussion. This is especially important if the TFD notice was put on the template's talk page." -
Wikipedia:Templates for deletion
Tom Harrison
Talk
18:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Re [2], what are the reliable sources for the plumes being anything other than "material ejected due to the evacuation of air as the floors collapsed?" And I see you restored the phrase 'official theory.' Tom Harrison Talk 23:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is Tom Harrison posting articles from "Rense" as representative of the 9/11 truth movement researchers? Rense is never linked to from the main 9/11 websites, never appears at conferences, never has done a book on 9/11 and promotes hoaxes that 99% of the 9/11 researchers have openly exposed, like the 'Jews Did It' claim that Tom keeps trying to smear everyone with - Holocaust deniers push hoaxes that sabotage 9/11 Truth Movement, Holocaust Denial Versus 9/11 Truth, etc. Find one significant 9/11 site - not a UFO hoax site like Rense, which is obviously not a 9/11 site - that promotes the idea that Silverstein being Jewish had anything to do with his being focused on. Go ahead and show me. No significant site would ever promote this because we are not anti-semites, as much as it is Tom's goal to smear this group of activists with UFO and anti-semitic writings. He's posted Rense around before but it does not represent the movement. bov 01:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
They even stated the reasons for it's collapse (I.E. the official lie) 20 minutes before the event occurred. **BUSTED!!!** Revealing, shocking video shows reporter talking about collapse with WTC 7 still standing in background, Google removes clip. An astounding video uncovered from the archives today shows the BBC reporting on the collapse of WTC Building 7 over twenty minutes before it fell at 5:20pm on the afternoon of 9/11. The incredible footage shows BBC reporter Jane Standley talking about the collapse of the Salomon Brothers Building while it remains standing in the live shot behind her head. www.infowarscom/articles/sept11/bbc_reported_wtc_7_collapsed_20_min_before_it_fell.htm unreliable fringe source?
Looks like a whole lot of misrepresentation of the facts. The BBC has stated that if they did claim the building was collapsing, it was an error in their reporting. But that won't stop the conpsiracy theory nonsense peddlers since they can make more money by pushing their idiocy down our throats.-- Beguiled 11:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html-- Beguiled 11:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it just didn't fall at free-fall speeds and took 20 minutes to finish falling down. --
Tbeatty
07:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I was saddened to see that Thomas Basboll has quit editing from wikipedia - he created this page and he did a fantastic job of keeping it one of the very few neutral pages on the issue of the alternatives to the official version of 9/11 in existance. I hope he will consider returning. bov 17:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I have largely expanded on this section since it seems to be the crux of arguments made by both proponents and detractors of the demolition hypothesis. I have added in additional information from NIST as well as the comments of NCST members about the adequacy of recovered steel at the WTC.
( RationalRich 02:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC))
I was dismayed to see that someone (not necessarily Rich) has reinserted the unsourced criminal accusation regarding the debris removal. Again, if someone has made this accusation, cite it. If not, it doesn't exist for Wikipedia's purposes. Gazpacho 07:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
FY 2007 Information Quality Request for Corrections… just stumbled on this one, think it's interesting, and relevant… check it out. - Lovelight 10:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Letters that some conspiracy cranks sent to a federal department? Sure, we'll get right on that. I did get a laugh out of this interview with Judy Wood, though. Gazpacho 21:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Gazpacho, sorry, I was looking at the wrong ref. But the next question is, what is nistreview.org, and are they a reliable source? Tom Harrison Talk 01:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I think Quintiere's own reliability is what matters, and NCSTAC thought it appropriate to mention his objections in its report to Congress. Gazpacho 02:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Leaving aside the perennial question of original reserch by synthesis, have they accurately reproduced his letter? And again, what is nistreview.org? Tom Harrison Talk 02:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
You can e-mail him to confirm that he wrote it. I don't know what nistreview.org is and don't think it matters. Gazpacho 02:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't really meets our standards of verifiabliity. I don't think the sourcing is adequate to include this. Maybe others have a different view. Tom Harrison Talk 02:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Tom, I see what you mean about original research. If someone can't come up with a CDH advocate who has criticized the debris removal in print, then whole section has problems. This article is solely about the CDH and the controversy surrounding the CDH. Gazpacho 03:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment Quintiere's remarks do not belong in this article unless we can say (and I haven't checked this out), "Tarpley cites Quintiere's critique of..." But he does seem to belong in the collapse of the World Trade Center article. See this story in the New Scientist [5]. There is a debris removal section in the collapse article, as well as a history section for developments of the theory. It may fit in there somewhere. Note the date of this article (2003). The collapse mechanism has in fact been officially revised since then. He may have been an influence, but this is also not something I've looked at yet. I think the risk of leaving it in here is definitely OR by synthesis. Q.'s criticism are not intended to imply CD.-- Thomas Basboll 13:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Is this Youtube Video enough to source information about Jones describing iron-rich droplets found in the dust from WTC and him using this as a proof for very high temperatures during WTC collapse? Or should we wait until something is published? SalvNaut 01:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Judy Wood and Morgan Reynolds are openly rejected by almost everyone in the movement and are described as "agents" regularly and openly. Numerous scientists and engineers have refuted their ridiculous claims in papers in the Journal of 9/11 Studies (at least 8 letters are dedicated to that here). Physicist Greg Jenkins did the video interview with Wood to help the people to understand her thinking process (I guess some people on here don't realize that he supports the controlled demolition theory). To get a sense of what people think of these 'researchers' WITHIN the movement, read the average opinions of these people on the popular comment site, 911Blogger here, here, here, here, etc. They should not be on the top of this page without a significant qualification regarding the viewpoint that most people have of them -- "they don't speak for us." bov 06:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
What makes their disinformation any different from the rest of the disinformation? It sees that if we subject these two people to 'significant qualification' we would need to do it for the lot of them. -- Tbeatty 06:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment In my opinion neither 911blogger nor the Journal of 9/11 Studies should be taken as a reliable primary source of what the hypothesis says. I think they are being used in that way in the disputed passage. This article will get out of hand if everything that is posted and published in those sources can be taken as representative of the hypothesis. We have generally stuck to books printed by publishers who also print books about other things, and only in one case (which we could discuss the wisdom of) cited the J of 9/11 S. The only other link to J of 9/11 S is Jones's paper, which is of course available there, but it was first published elsewhere. It's appearence in J of 9/11 S is with the permission of a reputable publisher. Griffin and Tarpley also have publishers behind them. I think including the space beams idea sets a precedent that lowers the standard of citation. I am still involved in dispute resolution related to this page, so I'll leave my comments at that.-- Thomas Basboll 11:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Clarification Sources are reliable or not based on who publishes them, not what they say. Interlink is a reputable publisher of books on all sorts of topics. J of 9/11 Studies does not have the backing of a reputable publisher, and clearly has an agenda in relation to this topic. We must carefully select our sources based on the criteria for RS. To indiscriminately report all claims that the WTC was demolished would not result in a good article.-- Thomas Basboll 11:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There are two problems with the sentence about Reynolds and Wood in the lead. First, the sources (J 9/11 S and 911blogger) are pretty weak. I don't think they can justify including the information. Second, the idea isn't mentioned again anywhere in the article. So it introduces a topic that is not developed further, which is a bit confusing. I think the best way forward is to find some more weighty sources, then decide how the idea should be presented in the main text, and only then summarize the idea in the lead. A better way to do the last part might be to remove "explosives", simply leaving the questin of what exactly brought the buildings down open. We could then have a section on "devices" (where the thermite info would also go.) But it depends on how important we decide the idea is and whether it is even serious enough to mention.-- Thomas Basboll 15:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should try to assess the relative kookiness of these theories. The question is where to draw the line for including stuff. As MONGO points out, this article can't be allowed to become a platform to promote any old idea about how the WTC was brought down, posted on any old website. My question: are the sources for the Wood and Reynold's claim up the standard of WP:RS? In my opinion, they are not.-- Thomas Basboll 19:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I've moved old discussions from December through the end of January to a new archive page. If you wish to continue any of the discussions that have been archived, please do not edit the Archive page. Instead, create a new comment section here, and link to the Archive page for others to read. -- Kesh 05:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Who is connecting this with the WTC? Gazpacho 22:13, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Debeo Morium: to be morally bound ( Talk | Contribs) 21:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
uh actually I just exposed that nonsense approach as the article doesn't say the bridge collapsed from fire, but an exploding tanker truck, cheers Aqwiz 07:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Taking two sources that use different metrics for measuring fire temperatures is very dangerous and in the latest case, wrong. Jet fuel and diesel are practically identical (see this and "comparison of fuel properties" diesel is the same as jet fuel). By the source provided, Jet Fuel (diesel) max flame temperature (again, this is different than open air fire temperature) is 2054 C while gasoline is 1977 C. I have deleted all comparisons as they are both wrong and original research. -- Tbeatty 06:57, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's] more data that correlates that Diesel and Jet-A are almost identical and that diesel burns hotter as from the source User:SalvNaut provided.
-- Tbeatty 07:23, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I made small but critical edits (which have been removed) to the controlled demolition article in the interest of preserving neutrality. But I do have a POV on this difficult subject and it is inevitable that my POV would influence any changes that I made. The controlled demolition article on the events of September 11, 2001 and all articles relating to reasonable, scientific and well-documented alternative theories to the highly dubious stories offered by US government agencies to explain what really happened that day seem to be the subject of routine censorship and blatant bias by some wiki participants. For example, Dr. Wood, who is plainly a "notable" person by any reasonable standard, has no entry in wikipedia whatsoever. This is oppressive and constitutes censorship. Others may not agree with alternative theories or the individuals, like Dr. Wood and Dr. Stephen Jones who espouse them, but that does justify eliminating or marginalizing information concerning them.
I really think that POV is unavoidable. Perhaps there is a better way.
Different POVs? Different Articles.
wikipedia obviously has a problem with subjects that become highly political and controversial. While the practice of locking or deleting articles may be intended to preserve neutrality and objectivity, it is rightly or wrongly perceived as censorship and suppression of information. I don't think that it is reasonable or even possible to try and achieve perfect neutrality on intensely disputed issues. On those subjects where there are irreconcilable POVs Why not have two or more articles which are satisfactory to differing POVs?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Thurn X ( talk • contribs) 12:50, June 16, 2007
A futile idealism guides the wiki policy of neutrality. In pursuing this idea of neutrality wiki is creating articles with a two dimensional objectivity. And depending on the motives of those influencing the articles, a charade of objectivity masking prejudiced and biased perspectives.
Thurn X
15:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
This article will ever fail at being neutral and encyclopedic. Take a look at some content on it now. For example, "Several journalists reporting on the events speculated that the World Trade Center collapses were caused by intentionally planted explosives" Excuse me? Since when did journalists become demolitions experts? I could just as well say "some inmates at a local insane asylum speculated that peregrine falcons were seen pecking at the sides of the buildings immediately before collapse". So WHAT if journalists speculated? Who gives a flying leap what journalists think? -- Durin 12:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
"While, strictly speaking, superfluous, one of the effects of a more detailed modeling of the progressive collapse, they say, could be to "dispel the myth of planted explosives".[13] To date, however, no such detailed model has been put forward."
I think it's done, now : Purdue study supports WTC collapse findings (And there is a fancy video on Youtube : [8]) Kromsson 15:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately this study shines no light on the collapse itself or the collapse cause. To this day, I could only find one scientific paper on this study (and it was about animation software not the impact itself) - it seems that the study has not been peer reviewed (yet?). If any, the only addition would be confirmation of fireproofing having been (allegedly) widely dislodged. However, except from few statements we have no other indication of this finding. Personally, I see no way how this study could prove that, as it can be seen in the video, the WTC model uses very simplified interior - it's basically steel wireframe only - no cement, walls, furniture. I don't think that it would be possible to derive information from this model about what happened to fireproofing that was on the steel columns which were covered by walls and other things.
While involved scientists claim that this study supports NIST findings, it in fact barely touches the NIST conclusion that fire caused columns to buckle and collapse. Purdue's study does nothing except for modeling the crash, there is no explosion or fire modeling included, of course no collapse is modeled. Fuel from the plane never ignites, so it's kinetic energy is contained instead of being transfered to explosion energy. And they try to claim that: "a flash flood of flaming liquid" knocked out a number of structural columns within the building and removed the fireproofing. I would like to read how in the world they draw that conclusion, anybody can point me somewhere?
Another point is that this study cannot be in any way named "independent". The Study was funded by the National Science Foundation, a federal agency created by Congress in 1950 "to promote the progress of science; to advance the national health, prosperity, and welfare; to secure the national defense…". The board of the NSF was appointed by George W. Bush. Its director, Dr. Arden L. Bement Jr, has worked for the Department of defense, where he was under secretary for research and engineering, and DARPA (the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency), which is responsible for the development of new technology for use by the military and famed for its black op projects and offshoot offices.
Conveniently, last year the Bush Administration doubled the NSF's budget to $6.02 billion. This could explain why involved scientists so eagerly claim that this study supports another government funded study, i.e. NIST report.
The structural engineer involved in this study, Mr. Sozen, is heavily involved in government funded science. Please refer to this article and text-search for Sozen. He has for many years worked for the US Department of Defense (DOD) through the Blast Mitigation for Structures Program... interesting enough, isn't it? SalvNaut 20:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I changed the reference to squibs back to 'possibly' from 'supposedly' for two reasons. First, the context of the paragraph it is contained in is from the viewpoint of the 'proponents', thus a skeptical qualifier is not warranted, and is incorrect. Secondly, in this context, 'supposedly' violates WP:WTA. Dreadstar † 17:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Having learned that the towers bent inwards by their floors before they collapsed, and thinking of that they should have bent into the direction where the planes hit them (which seems to be the first edge to smash the lower sections in the Videos), wouldn't then the upper towers outer shape be smaller than the lower towers inner one? So that the outer walls of the upper section would "fall" into the lower part of the tower causing four effects:
(1)once the part of the falling upper tower with full shape reaches these sections wouldn't it cause the lower towers skin to burst apart with much energy -> parts of the skin getting thrown far away.
(2) will more of the upper part of the towers shape become smaller, as bursting off the under skin compresses the shape of the falling tower part, making the falling, non skin-blasting part longer?
(3)As the outer walls are rather solid compared to the floors that connect them to the inner columns, wouldn't these walls cut through the floors they fall through like a knife that falls into a wet paper and thus accelerate the fall?
(4) Could this cause the effect that you can see "squibs" ahead of the demolition, where the outer skin is still intact, but the inner floors yet have been cut through, and windows are blown out by the pressure of the building combusting?
“ | although the Director of Public Affairs at the Directed Energy Directorate, Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico says Dr Judy Wood's 9/11 directed energy weapon evidence is "interesting and worthy of further consideration". [9] | ” |
is not actually supported by the reference. The relevant clause from the letter is:
“ | While on a personal level I may find Dr Wood's investigation interesting and worthy of further consideration, .... | ” |
. This doesn't actually say he does find it "interesting and worthy of further consideration. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
As unrelated comment: just fyi, I noticed that "Complete Truth" mentions that his blog is "911researchers.com". This is a site which functions as a gossip column to primarily attack other researchers and attempt to create disruptions amongst activists, filing lawsuits, saying that activists are terrorists, even attacking a victim's widow which was the purpose of this articlein the New York Post on the "lunatic fringe" elements, Rick Siegel and Nico Haupt.