![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I remove the section that stated "It is now considered most likely that von Richthofen was killed by an anti-aircraft (AA) machine gunner, probably Sergeant Cedric Popkin of the Australian 24th Machine Gun Company, based on the range from which the bullet was shot and the angle and velocity the bullet must have had."
I saw the documentary also. It is based solely on the 'trajectory' of the bullet. From the lower right back towards the front left chest. That documentary assumed the angle of impact must mean that it was fired from the ground. However, consider the situation. We are talking about a "dog-fight". The Foker Tri-plane was rolling, pitching, yawing, climbing, and diving. Imagine how much manuverability that a 3 wing airplane has!! So therefore, it is possible the pursuing plane could have fired from any angle. The fatal bullet passed clean through the Red Baron and of course could never be recovered. Therefore it is impossible to conduct ballisitics tests.
While recognizing that for "propoganda reason" Capt Brown was awarded credit for the "kill", of course realistically, we could never know who fired the fatal bullet that day.—Preceding unsigned comment added by claffey-27 ( talk • contribs)
You should re-insert that section, and read "Who Killed The Red Barron" by P.J. Carisella and James W. Ryan. There is no question whatsoever that the Baron was killed by ground fire from Australian positions. And take out that bullshit about Manfred von Richthofen only attacking damaged aircraft. The man was a great fighter pilot and a hero, and this is some asshole's undocumented attempt posthumously smear him.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.128.211 ( talk • contribs)
I changed the birthday from April 20 to March 20 beacuse in "Wings of a Hero" by Sheila Reid she cites March 20 several times throughout the text. This book was read and approved by Denny may and contains a foreword written by him. However the website does list the birthdate as April 20. I am going to do some more investigation into this and leave it at April 20 for now. Jaob ( talk) 01:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Article mentions buying a Jenny (built by Standard). The Jenny (Curtiss JN)and the Standard J are not the same aircraft. Which one is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.232.76 ( talk) 18:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I have cut a very strange sentence that simply failed to make sense (in several senses of the word), or add anything to the article, because:
1. It is bad English, and unclear.
2. Nobody ever claimed May had anything to do with the Red Baron's death (apart from being his last target).
3. Nobody ever called the Fokker Dr.I the "DR".
4. Nobody (as far as I know) ever called May "D.R. May" - on any grounds.
If the sentence can be recast into unambiguous, understandable English, and a reliable source can be cited, then there might be a case for reinstating it. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:28, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
This article has been moved to a nickname name space. I have written hundreds of bios on WWI fighter aces, and researched dozens of texts in the process, and I have NEVER EVER seen May listed solely by nickname. Wilfrid "Wop" May is common; Wilfred "Wop" May occurs; both Wilfrid May and Wilfred May appear; never just the nickname.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 22:56, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not moved. Although the weight of arguments below is against the move, over the long period this survey has been open little actual evidence other than anecdote and assertion of what the common name is was presented (as should be upon any common name argument), and so I have necessarily had to independently check. My searches shows that Wop May is overwhelmingly the common name found in reliable, English language sources, over Wilfrid May. In point of fact, for example, a Google Book search of "Wilfrid May" (with terms to remove the massive false positive results for the bishop), "Wilfrid Wop May", "Wilfrid R. May", "Wilfrid R. Wop May", "Wilfrid Reid May" and "Wilfrid Reid Wop May" combined, return about 100 results, while "Wop May" returns over 1,200 results, all of which appear to be about this individual.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 08:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Wop May → — As per the above section should the article be at his proper name, Wilfrid, or his nickname, Wop. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 12:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
In this case I'd vote to move back to "proper" name on these grounds. 1. Alternative name is not "better known" or "more familiar" than the proper name, but about the same - in fact most references seem to refer to him as Wilfrid ("Wop") May or some other combination using both actual given name and nickname. I have never seen Wop (Wilfrid) May. 2. The alternative name is not a pen name or stage name. It seems to have originally been a family nickname. Nor is his original name obscure or little known. 3. Other air aces had nicknames, but are none-the-less filed under their real names (e.g. the "Red Baron" himself). Does an MOS section need to be composed for this case - when should a nickname take precedence over a "real" name??? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 15:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
If that's so, this whole discussion is pointless because the move to the nickname is in violation of standards. Georgejdorner ( talk) 14:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I doubt anyone reading this can come up with Hulk Hogan's or Snoop Dogg's birth name right out of memory. On the other hand, May's name appears in both birth form, nickname, or a mixture of the two. There is no doubt about that. The discussion here concerns which form of his name to use.
Earl Andrew heard of him by nickname in a song, therefore he says "nickname".
Unregistered user 76.66.197.151 says May will not be recognized under his birth name, although a redirect from "Wop May" would deal with that rather nicely.
On the other hand, I have been researching fighter aces' lives for bios for the past two years, have created about 900 new articles in the field, comb relentlessly through the Osprey House and Grub Street series in pursuit of facts, and in that time cannot recall having seen Mays referred to strictly by nickname.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 14:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
May is immortalized in songs by Stompin' Tom Connors ("Wop May"), The Gumboots ("Wop May"), and John Spearn ("Roy Brown and Wop May"). He was also the subject of a 1979 National Film Board of Canada vignette.[3]
Unregistered user 76.66.197.151 repeats my assertions about the sources of our respective positions concerning the article's name; therefore he seems to agree with me in that respect. He stakes out a claim based on local popular culture, and I state one that is the summary of the aviation historians behind Osprey Publishing and Grub Street.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 23:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
I find it ironic that I plump for the respectful version of May's name, while those who insist on his heroism seem to find it absolutely necessary to use his nickname. Unmentioned thus far is the fact that "Wop" is a pejorative to many English speakers.
Soundofmusicals is correct that most international readers will look May up in relation to his combat with the Red Baron; that's reality. I would like to see the article indexed by May's formal name, with a redirect from the nickname. That way, everyone gets to the article, no matter which name they use.
Then I would like to see the article take full note of May's heroism as a pioneer bush pilot, as well as his brush with the Baron. By the end of the article, the reader should realize there's a lot more to Mr. May than a few minutes drama in 1918.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 14:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Resolute, I am not trying to confuse you, and I apologize if I have misled you, even inadvertently. You have been a voice of reason in this discussion.
Your link is most interesting. However, the policy contains no guidance on titles as such; it does contain an excellent policy on censorship. I hold no brief for censorship, obviously. However, entitling an article in such a way it repels readers is self-defeating. Consider the title if Spencer B. Horn's nickname were used.
The fact that every article and book I have found on May goes to great pains to explain that his nickname is NOT an ethnic insult because his cousin nicknamed him shows a consciousness that his nickname is insulting.
All of which is interesting, but aside from the main point here: just what is Mr. May's best known name?
Georgejdorner ( talk) 19:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree that the ironic comments by me concerning pejoratives is peripheral to the issue, just as I stated previously in an ignored comment above.
Now let's quit the bumbling about and settle on his most common form of name.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 18:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is the evidence that he attended Victoria School in Edmonton: here, here, here, and a copy from a newspaper article here. Thus I am readding the cat for his alumni status there. Jeremy112233 ( talk) 00:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
The last two sentences of the second-to-last paragraph are non sequiturs; there is text necessary between the two to describe what happened between Richthofen's resumed attack on May and the last sentence about the true cause of Richthofen's death. I'm not qualified to add that text and would request an authority to do so. Hkne ( talk) 14:31, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I remove the section that stated "It is now considered most likely that von Richthofen was killed by an anti-aircraft (AA) machine gunner, probably Sergeant Cedric Popkin of the Australian 24th Machine Gun Company, based on the range from which the bullet was shot and the angle and velocity the bullet must have had."
I saw the documentary also. It is based solely on the 'trajectory' of the bullet. From the lower right back towards the front left chest. That documentary assumed the angle of impact must mean that it was fired from the ground. However, consider the situation. We are talking about a "dog-fight". The Foker Tri-plane was rolling, pitching, yawing, climbing, and diving. Imagine how much manuverability that a 3 wing airplane has!! So therefore, it is possible the pursuing plane could have fired from any angle. The fatal bullet passed clean through the Red Baron and of course could never be recovered. Therefore it is impossible to conduct ballisitics tests.
While recognizing that for "propoganda reason" Capt Brown was awarded credit for the "kill", of course realistically, we could never know who fired the fatal bullet that day.—Preceding unsigned comment added by claffey-27 ( talk • contribs)
You should re-insert that section, and read "Who Killed The Red Barron" by P.J. Carisella and James W. Ryan. There is no question whatsoever that the Baron was killed by ground fire from Australian positions. And take out that bullshit about Manfred von Richthofen only attacking damaged aircraft. The man was a great fighter pilot and a hero, and this is some asshole's undocumented attempt posthumously smear him.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.128.211 ( talk • contribs)
I changed the birthday from April 20 to March 20 beacuse in "Wings of a Hero" by Sheila Reid she cites March 20 several times throughout the text. This book was read and approved by Denny may and contains a foreword written by him. However the website does list the birthdate as April 20. I am going to do some more investigation into this and leave it at April 20 for now. Jaob ( talk) 01:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Article mentions buying a Jenny (built by Standard). The Jenny (Curtiss JN)and the Standard J are not the same aircraft. Which one is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.232.76 ( talk) 18:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I have cut a very strange sentence that simply failed to make sense (in several senses of the word), or add anything to the article, because:
1. It is bad English, and unclear.
2. Nobody ever claimed May had anything to do with the Red Baron's death (apart from being his last target).
3. Nobody ever called the Fokker Dr.I the "DR".
4. Nobody (as far as I know) ever called May "D.R. May" - on any grounds.
If the sentence can be recast into unambiguous, understandable English, and a reliable source can be cited, then there might be a case for reinstating it. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:28, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
This article has been moved to a nickname name space. I have written hundreds of bios on WWI fighter aces, and researched dozens of texts in the process, and I have NEVER EVER seen May listed solely by nickname. Wilfrid "Wop" May is common; Wilfred "Wop" May occurs; both Wilfrid May and Wilfred May appear; never just the nickname.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 22:56, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not moved. Although the weight of arguments below is against the move, over the long period this survey has been open little actual evidence other than anecdote and assertion of what the common name is was presented (as should be upon any common name argument), and so I have necessarily had to independently check. My searches shows that Wop May is overwhelmingly the common name found in reliable, English language sources, over Wilfrid May. In point of fact, for example, a Google Book search of "Wilfrid May" (with terms to remove the massive false positive results for the bishop), "Wilfrid Wop May", "Wilfrid R. May", "Wilfrid R. Wop May", "Wilfrid Reid May" and "Wilfrid Reid Wop May" combined, return about 100 results, while "Wop May" returns over 1,200 results, all of which appear to be about this individual.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 08:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Wop May → — As per the above section should the article be at his proper name, Wilfrid, or his nickname, Wop. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 12:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
In this case I'd vote to move back to "proper" name on these grounds. 1. Alternative name is not "better known" or "more familiar" than the proper name, but about the same - in fact most references seem to refer to him as Wilfrid ("Wop") May or some other combination using both actual given name and nickname. I have never seen Wop (Wilfrid) May. 2. The alternative name is not a pen name or stage name. It seems to have originally been a family nickname. Nor is his original name obscure or little known. 3. Other air aces had nicknames, but are none-the-less filed under their real names (e.g. the "Red Baron" himself). Does an MOS section need to be composed for this case - when should a nickname take precedence over a "real" name??? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 15:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
If that's so, this whole discussion is pointless because the move to the nickname is in violation of standards. Georgejdorner ( talk) 14:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I doubt anyone reading this can come up with Hulk Hogan's or Snoop Dogg's birth name right out of memory. On the other hand, May's name appears in both birth form, nickname, or a mixture of the two. There is no doubt about that. The discussion here concerns which form of his name to use.
Earl Andrew heard of him by nickname in a song, therefore he says "nickname".
Unregistered user 76.66.197.151 says May will not be recognized under his birth name, although a redirect from "Wop May" would deal with that rather nicely.
On the other hand, I have been researching fighter aces' lives for bios for the past two years, have created about 900 new articles in the field, comb relentlessly through the Osprey House and Grub Street series in pursuit of facts, and in that time cannot recall having seen Mays referred to strictly by nickname.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 14:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
May is immortalized in songs by Stompin' Tom Connors ("Wop May"), The Gumboots ("Wop May"), and John Spearn ("Roy Brown and Wop May"). He was also the subject of a 1979 National Film Board of Canada vignette.[3]
Unregistered user 76.66.197.151 repeats my assertions about the sources of our respective positions concerning the article's name; therefore he seems to agree with me in that respect. He stakes out a claim based on local popular culture, and I state one that is the summary of the aviation historians behind Osprey Publishing and Grub Street.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 23:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
I find it ironic that I plump for the respectful version of May's name, while those who insist on his heroism seem to find it absolutely necessary to use his nickname. Unmentioned thus far is the fact that "Wop" is a pejorative to many English speakers.
Soundofmusicals is correct that most international readers will look May up in relation to his combat with the Red Baron; that's reality. I would like to see the article indexed by May's formal name, with a redirect from the nickname. That way, everyone gets to the article, no matter which name they use.
Then I would like to see the article take full note of May's heroism as a pioneer bush pilot, as well as his brush with the Baron. By the end of the article, the reader should realize there's a lot more to Mr. May than a few minutes drama in 1918.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 14:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Resolute, I am not trying to confuse you, and I apologize if I have misled you, even inadvertently. You have been a voice of reason in this discussion.
Your link is most interesting. However, the policy contains no guidance on titles as such; it does contain an excellent policy on censorship. I hold no brief for censorship, obviously. However, entitling an article in such a way it repels readers is self-defeating. Consider the title if Spencer B. Horn's nickname were used.
The fact that every article and book I have found on May goes to great pains to explain that his nickname is NOT an ethnic insult because his cousin nicknamed him shows a consciousness that his nickname is insulting.
All of which is interesting, but aside from the main point here: just what is Mr. May's best known name?
Georgejdorner ( talk) 19:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree that the ironic comments by me concerning pejoratives is peripheral to the issue, just as I stated previously in an ignored comment above.
Now let's quit the bumbling about and settle on his most common form of name.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 18:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is the evidence that he attended Victoria School in Edmonton: here, here, here, and a copy from a newspaper article here. Thus I am readding the cat for his alumni status there. Jeremy112233 ( talk) 00:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
The last two sentences of the second-to-last paragraph are non sequiturs; there is text necessary between the two to describe what happened between Richthofen's resumed attack on May and the last sentence about the true cause of Richthofen's death. I'm not qualified to add that text and would request an authority to do so. Hkne ( talk) 14:31, 25 February 2021 (UTC)