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This article was nominated for deletion on 19 May 2014. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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I'm trying to understand the decision to make this page with what seems to be an arbitrary distinction, the gender of the historian... particularly when there is no comparative list of male art historians that I can find here, nor a list of historians in general. I can understand the use of gender differential in fields where a distinction is commonly made (male and female athletes rarely compete against one another, male actors get different roles than female actors) or where there is some study made of them (the existence of Womens Literature studies might justify lists of female authors), but I would assume that female art historians don't inherently study different materials or get articles in different journals or anything. I can see separating out art historians by their specialty (i.e., historians focused on the renaissance artists might make a list, say, or those focused on Greek art), but this one is eluding me. Admittedly, art historians are not a specialty of mine, but I'd appreciate it if someone could explain what I'm missing here. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 03:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
It is not widely appreciated how incredibly small and vulnerable the discipline of art history is, not even among art historians. In the US there are about 3500 registered art historians, who belong to the College Art Association, and 700 more grad students. We know there are more (the great unregistered), we just have no idea how many more because there are no statistics. Compare those numbers to the largest professional organization for the humanities in the US, the Modern Language Association, which has a membership of around 30,000. Humanities grads count for just 12% of recent grads, of which art history grads count for just .2% (If we doubled the numbers it would be .4%!).
The names on this list, the first 200 or so that were added, came from the online Dictionary of Art Historians. It is a wonderful resource ( http://www.dictionaryofarthistorians.org/index.htm). In fact I feel terribly guilty that I have not put in all the footnotes yet. I will get to it shortly I hope. The names on that list include all the great art historians in art history history, and you know how many people are on that list? *2475*. Of which, *only 200 are women*. Art historians are, as we say, a rare breed. Women art historians, even rarer! I wanted to start the list to acknowledge their work, their role in the protection and stewardship of le patrimoine mondial, and just to make them known to new younger art historians (and older indifferent ones, who don't really care but should!). I want to begin to build art history up, by starting with one of its most important subgroups.
Your point about specialty is well taken though. I actually think I am going to rebuild the list as a searchable spreadsheet just so I can address those issues specifically.
Oh and, there used to be a list of art historians on Wikipedia, I just don't know what happened to it. It was super pathetic, that is for sure.
Finally...I want to add the numbers back in, because I think it is important to keep count, but I am open to discussing why they should be left out if someone has a strong opinion on the matter.
( Vhfs ( talk) 10:58, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
It signifies nothing about the art historian, for sure, but it does underline what a rare breed we are. I think it is important. You can change it to a single count if you want. I don't know what that is. As long as we keep a tally of the numbers.
( Vhfs ( talk) 13:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
I would that there are only 2000 or so living art historians (notable and non-notable, though I tend to think they are all notable for being crazy enough to want to become art historians) who happen to be women, in the US, on the very outside, and that number includes grad students. This is connected to another project of mine which is about building a database, so the number is not being pulled completely out of thin air.
Regarding whether or not art historians should be listed at all...I think of it like sports teams...art history departments are kind of like sports teams. They have rosters, stars, their line-ups change season to season. There are the notable players, and the non-notable ones, but Wikipedia has pages for all of them. I don't see why it should be any different for the humanities, and especially art history.
( Vhfs ( talk) 13:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
I am not ignoring it. Yet. It is just that in my book, especially in America, all academics are notable. And this is a very very special category of academics. Moreover, I don't mean to sound silly here but arguably art historians are more important than football players. After all, they, you know, contribute to society and stuff.
( Vhfs ( talk) 14:33, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
I didn't do it! I want to make a spreadsheet, as I said. You need to talk to whomever did it.
Forza! ( Vhfs ( talk) 18:02, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
Those of us who work in art history, in both universities and art museums, are only too aware of the dominance of male voices, while the substantial scholarship of many women tends to be subsumed. Despite many great feminist art historians, women art historians are too often sidelined, even though the overwhelming majority of art history students are women. It makes sense to have somewhere, and Wikipedia seems to be the right place, where the contributions of women art historians can be publicly recorded. The long term value of this is to both disseminate knowledge of what women art historians do, and change the climate so that others can see that the interests of women art historians range over all kinds of art history — many countries, and many theoretical approaches. Old lilipili ( talk) 02:38, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to put the numbers back in there, now I have got it in spreadsheet form. Does anyone have any tips? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs ( talk • contribs) 03:06, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
I tried to fix this yesterday but no luck. Can someone help to get this sorted out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs ( talk • contribs) 09:34, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Also I think something is wonky about the statistics page for the list. If someone could check on that, that would be awesome. - Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs ( talk · contribs) at 09:41, 23 May 2014 (UTC) It's not clear which statistics page you're speaking of. this one? -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 14:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Isn't it a bit redundant to include a "Profession" column, since this list is a list of people solely in this profession? Also, I wasn't aware that being "African" was a profession. (See the entry on Anderson, Martha). G S Palmer ( talk) 13:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Ha ha haaa. The African thing was my mistake, and it is fixed now. Art historians have all kinds of jobs: they are curators, museum directors, professors, artists, art critics...sometimes all of the above, it is important to specify to acknowledge the diversity of the kinds of careers art historians have, and the multiplicity--the depth and breadth--of the field. It is not just one thing, it is all kinds of things. ( Vhfs ( talk) 19:12, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
Can you PLEASE undo the deletion of everybody who has no data?? I cannot add data unless I know who was here. I just started adding data and between when I began and when I saved (at the end of the letter B) 3/4 of the entries disappeared! In fact, all the data I had spent 45 minutes adding is now gone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.158.161 ( talk) 19:32, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
This is obviously a special page. I think we need to get it some special protections. It is ridiculous. Incredible. ( Vhfs ( talk) 19:45, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
Could someone reinstate the version that was vandalized? It was not even done consistently... And how come it is impossible to see who did it? ( Vhfs ( talk) 20:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
http://en.utrace.de/ip-address/128.32.158.161
(
Vhfs (
talk) 01:04, 24 May 2014 (UTC))
That is not true. The edit to which you linked was my trial one and I had thereafter added data to about half the entries on art historians whose names began with A and B. I want to say that it is ridiculous to remove anybody who, basically, is not already in the online Dictionary of Art Historians -- then we really ARE repeating information available from another source. Not every woman art historian has a link to an online article. Most American academic art historians have a profile on their department's website but not all European ones do, and even very important curators do not have a web presence like that. So are we not going to be permitted to put on the list people who are, say, the Curator of European Paintings at the London National Gallery, because there is no article or page about her on the web? This is absurd. If you will restore the original full list, I can provide institutional affiliations/ professional positions for at least half the names. By the way, I was not signed in for my last edits because I was trying to get the password to my old account so you would see that I have made edits to other articles before -- I just created this account to edit this article because I cannot remember my old password. Although I requested that previous password it was not sent to me. Eahonig ( talk) 14:13, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Seriously stop reverting data while people are actively creating new articles to complete this list. It's rude, and YES we can all see which user is doing it without having to out them. Jooojay ( talk) 03:41, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
User:Drmies I love the introduction. Thank you for writing it. I have one small point of contention...my idea of feminist scholarship is, I think, a little different than the standard line. I am not so much interested in producing an army of feminist art historians, but rather establishing the kinds of conditions that will ensure that young art historians, who happen to be women, can study whatever they goddamn well want to. To get there, we need a better sense of, and/or we need to take stock of where we are now. That is what motivated the creation of the list, because, while there are no hard statistics we all know that women do most of the teaching in the discipline, while dudes get the sweet research gigs. I think feminism is extremely relevant, above all in terms of labor conditions. I guess I am wondering how to include that angle in the introduction. What I am trying to say, is I don't care whether or not said student identifies as a feminist, really I don't. I am much more interested in ensuring her right to study whatever she wants...intellectual curiosity is the most fragile thing in the world, and it is *that thing*, particularly in relation to emerging scholars, who happen to be women, that I want to protect, and encourage. For me there is no "should" in scholarship, maybe even and especially for feminist scholarship and/or scholarship that just happens to be done by women (depending on what side of the bed they got up on that day...).
I also loved your inclusion of statistics. Shouldn't there be some kind of comment about how there is a real lack of statistics on these questions since the 70s, and perhaps even some speculation on what has lead to our current situation? Like an explanation of why there are no statistics now. ( Vhfs ( talk) 19:47, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
User:Drmies The other part of the history is when *exactly* did the women's caucus and CAA part ways? 1977? (I am no where near a library). Could you include that history as well? I am absolutely *fascinated* and want to know more.
Thank you again! Forza! ( Vhfs ( talk) 20:05, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
A while ago I wrote a few biographies of women printers in the 18th century, and found that the very existence of women in that business was notable. But, dear Vhfs, when I say "notable" I mean "relevant for Wikipedia", not necessarily relevant in a broader sense, although in the case of printers I am convinced that it's relevant in a broader sense as well, and that's where Wikipedia can be an aid to any study of women's history. On-wiki, I'm a Wikipedian first and a feminist second. So, "notable" here means "the topic is being discussed in-depth in reliable sources". For those printers, those articles exist. For women art historians, I have to dig a little deeper.
I would expect that the Chronicle (that is, The Chronicle of Higher Education) has some useful stuff for us, but I don't subscribe to it. A search on their website suggests as much but I can't read those articles. The article I found, the one with the CAA material, is indeed fascinating but, as I said in an edit summary, I believe, I haven't had that much time to look into it and plow through the whole article: I just picked a few salient factoids to, again, indicate the notability of womanness in the profession. I am sure, though, that there are more such articles, and we'll get to them, after the AfD closes as keep, which I hope will be the case. I've been around the block, and DGG, Randykitty, and I are all in academia, so one hopes that a. we know what we're talking about and b. others know that we know what we're talking about. We're also all three admins, which doesn't give us a bigger stick in such discussions, but it does suggest that we have some experience in how Wikipedia treats (and likes) such articles. Look, Randykitty is a hard-ass, and if he says "keep", that counts for something. The three of us have participated in hundreds if not thousands of such discussions. Besides, other editors have helped improve the article: let's not forget that a list always needs a lead to establish a rationale--but maybe that's just my opinion.
Now, if anyone is still reading this, there is another article waiting to be written, and it will come from the same sources I cited in the lead, and a million more: the topic of how women (models, characters, artists, benefactors, etc.) have been treated in art history. One or two of the books I cited have positively fascinating material on that topic, and the suggestion--I couldn't yet put it in, since it smacked too much of WP:SYNTH; remember, we're encyclopedic, not academic writers here--is that women were treated as secondary subjects by art historians, and that "therefore" (those are ironic air quotes) women art historians, also treated secondarily in the profession, dealt with those secondary women artists. That's the fault of sexist history, of course, and it's a valid topic, and it's written about: I saw in one of those books a statement about how women artists were often trained in their father's or husband's workshops, and for someone like Artemisia Gentileschi that's obviously true. But, Vhfs, that also is treated as subject matter relevant to the subject of "women in the business"--so it can be difficult, and I know this first-hand now, to separate things out. A real feminist might say that such categorical separations are masculine anyway, though Obiwankenobi will probably call that bullocks.
In sum. Per Wikipedia's guidelines, this list/article should never be a directory, and so redlinks are to be avoided at all cost: one is simply not notable just because one is a woman art historian (or woman Anglo-Saxonist, or male tenured professor, etc.). In other words, we should not reformat that dictionary and paste it in. Blue links only. Once that is done (and it is done), the only argument against the list is "well, eh, it simply doesn't matter that one is a woman, and to that I say, well, that's wrong--and I can only hope that the lead, which I know needs more work, will prove that. Randykitty, for instance, who is a certified deletionist and has a penis to boot (I think), knows that the presence of women in his profession is still somewhat of an anomaly (Randy, I'd love for you to tell me I'm wrong; it will somewhat restore my faith in humanity), but as a Wikipedian, and an admin, he'll want to see that proven by reference to reliable sources. So that's where the burden, and article development, is. Reliable sources about women in the profession. Drmies ( talk) 23:04, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
A consensus was emerging in the Articles For Deletion discussion that this list should be limited to notable women art historians (in some statements limited to "blue links", which means that they have existing biographical articles in Wikipedia.) I understand that some folks want to revisit this consensus.
Listing every woman who happens to be an art historian would run both into practical problems of article size (given that there would appear to be thousands of qualifying folk around the world, including those no longer with us) and would run into our guideline that Wikipedia is not a directory. So if people want to support some more expansive list beyond just folks who have their own page, we should come up and reach consensus on what qualifies for inclusion. I'd certainly argue that any woman art historian who can be sourced as meeting the criteria for notability among academics, or who are otherwise notable for reasons related to their art history work, should qualify, so long as that notability is sourced (which would also mean that we could have an encouraging red-link entry with a link to the basic data that would be needed for someone else to go and create an article on that historian.) In the AFD discussion, I mentioned inclusion in the Dictionary Of Art Historians as sufficient suggestion that such notability might be achieved, but at that time I had only seen full biographical entries in that dictionary; since then, I've seen some entries that only have one piece of data, so at the very least I would qualify that inclusion.
But that's how I see it, and I'd be interested in hearing other views how we should set the bar for inclusion. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 15:35, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
My experience (after many edits on List of people by Erdős number and List of cosmologists among others) is that, while in an ideal world listing all plausibly-notable people sounds like a good idea, in this world, such lists tend to become hard-to-maintain spam magnets. Every random amateur researcher or new graduate student in the subject thinks they and all their friends should be listed despite having done nothing of significance yet, and if you don't spend a lot of attention filtering those people out they end up making the list too long and filled with junk to be useful for the actual readers (remember them?) who might be trying to find a fit subject for a term paper or whatever. Restricting the list to bluelinks makes it much easier to maintain — you will still get people thinking it's a directory and adding their own names to it, but fewer of them, and it can be quickly reverted rather than requiring much time and energy distinguishing those ones from the ones that really should be listed. And it also provides some motivation for improving the encyclopedia by writing articles about the people who should be on the list but aren't yet. — David Eppstein ( talk) 04:14, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I am thinking more and more that it would be a good idea to change the title and the topic to something like "Women art historians", to better cover what I think needs to be covered: the history and importance of such women scholars. The list itself then becomes a sub-section of the article (oh wait, I already kind of did that). The more I read up on the topic, the more I find in JSTOR, the more I am convinced that this is a valid topic in its own right. For instance, I'm seeing all these things about women art historians in Victorian times, and notes about the education of contemporary women art historians--this is material we need to cover. The lead of a list article, well, that's not the best place. Drmies ( talk) 14:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
What the hell does that mean?
It is so weird to me that if we discuss women scholars, who happen to be art historians, we have to discuss women artists, feminism, and activism all of a sudden...for me this is simply not the case. These are all separate things. As I tried to explain...this list is about raising the profile and status of art historians who happen to women, globally. It was first and foremost an effort to put them on the map. The fact that they happen to be women should be, and is, in fact, completely irrelevant to, and separate from what they are or are not interested in studying, including, or, as the case may be, excluding feminism. If you are going to respect academic freedoms, you have to respect women scholars who are emphatically uninterested in feminism. It is their right. But they are left out of your essay, which now I really do not understand at all anyway.
The Women's Caucus is primarily interested in raising the status of women artists, not women art historians. I talked to them in February. Do you see the difference? I am interested first and foremost in women *art historians*. The status of women artists is not relevant here.
There are so many sloppily articulated ideas in that opening essay. Art education is something different from art history dontcha know...art departments are something different from art history departments etc...and so it goes. If we cannot get those basic ideas straight, the essay is not going to be useful to anyone anyway.
Not that I expect you to address any of these concerns.
( Vhfs ( talk) 17:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC))
Nat Gertler Show me the impact and I am with you. Sounds like a tricky thing to prove though.
On another subject completely, do you mean that my kind of feminism is "politics" whereas other types of feminism is, I dunno, "real" feminism or something? Sigh. ( Vhfs ( talk) 20:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC))
The obvious problem (that has already been touched on a few times), is that there is no corresponding List of men art historians or List of art historians. I can see a few possible ways to deal with this:
Any thoughts? G S Palmer ( talk) 17:23, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
I was exchanging views on another topic with SamX, and he suggested making a category. Isn't that what is in order here? In addition to the other lists? I guess several different kinds of categories possibly?
Forza! ( Vhfs ( talk) 19:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC))
This is not a list any more but a full article. I am moving it to Women art historians. -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 17:25, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I am only anonymous to Wikipedians. I am not an entirely unknown quantity in the world of art history. I am most definitely an academic (my other hobbies include telling jokes and calling people names on the Internet), and if anyone is curious about my work you can check out my publications on academia.edu here: ( https://independent.academia.edu/VictoriaHFScott). And/or you can follow me on Twitter @vhfscott Andreas. Using my initials is sheer caprice, and makes me anonymous only to those who do not know me, while preserving my authorship on Wikipedia articles that I think are important, for those who do. This page for instance (which I made with my students at Alfred University): /info/en/?search=List_of_university_art_museums_and_galleries_in_New_York_State If you scroll down to the bottom of my sandbox page you will see another article I wrote with my students was prematurely deleted on false grounds, and is currently being considered for reinstatement: /info/en/?search=User_talk:Vhfs/sandbox Boy that shouldn't have happened...
As for the goodly Joan Evans, I had no idea that she even existed! But she sounds fascinating! I am sure there are other amazing women art historians out there that I have yet to learn about...but that was the whole point of making the list! As for the "the horde of black-text nonentities" (!!!????) could we please bring them back here to this page so people can start to sift through them and write articles for...*every single* one of them!? Because they are not really a "horde of black-text nonentities" they are just great art historians, who happen to be women, that do not have the Wikipedia articles they truly deserve yet.
I am sorry about posting the IP address, I take online privacy very seriously. I just wrote on essay on the subject actually, in relation to academic freedom. I am new to Wikipedia, and really was very angry and had no idea there was a rule against that. I wanted to know, above all, who had vandalized the article. As it turned out, the IP address was the wrong one anyway. It is very unlikely that I will do it again.
Finally: I don't think I discredited feminist editing. I strongly and emphatically disagreed with some editing done by a person who describes themselves as a feminist. I also describe myself as a feminist, but as an art historian and scholar first. I think there is nothing extreme about my conduct actually, but I think the times we live in are extreme.
But I am so happy it is a keeper! Forza! ( Vhfs ( talk) 21:29, 27 May 2014 (UTC))
p.s. I still think the intro essay is totally bogus and that the list needs to be much longer and with numbers somehow. p.p.s. I think the new titles works.
User: Andreas Philopater Indeed, as you admit yourself, your ideas about academia are somewhat unrealistic, dated, and misinformed. The academic "privileges" you mention are purely a figment of your own imagination and do not exist for the 80% of us who work as adjuncts in the US. There is a crisis happening in higher education everywhere, in case you didn't know. And guess who is getting the shortest end of the stick? Humanities scholars are the lowest paid scholars at every university, and among humanities scholars guess who gets the lowest pay? Art historians. And, of course, male art historians get paid more, because they are male. Even fancy adjuncts like myself make less than high school teachers, and often work without healthcare, without offices, without regular library access, and without job stability. I have lived in 14 cities in as many years, if you can believe it. Certainly, I can hardly believe it myself, and wonder exactly when I will just completely lose it. It is true I do not own the article, thank god, but nevertheless since it was I who proposed it, and I who initially fought for it, in a way, I do. As for swearing at random strangers on the internet, well, I would say I am sorry, but I would just be pretending, because I really do not think very highly of you, and all of the assumptions you have made about who I am and what I stand for. Especially when, exactly by proposing and fighting for this article, with all my passion and commitment, I have made who I am and what I stand for **perfectly obvious**. That I did so in a way that was neither palatable or acceptable to the likes of you is, I am delighted to say, completely irrelevant.
( Vhfs ( talk) 07:29, 8 June 2014 (UTC))
I'm going to suggest the addition of Trina Robbins to this list. Robbins has done extensive work specifically on women in the comics field, done much to gain additional attention to them. I will not make the addition myself, because I have a substantial conflict of interest here. I publish some of Robbins creative work (not her art history material), hope to publish more, and publish some of her husband's work as well.
The two possible objections I see here:
I leave it to others to judge. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 02:28, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
They seem a bit wonky, and also, maybe not so accurate. Is there a way to fix that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs ( talk • contribs) 06:13, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be nice?
( Vhfs ( talk) 10:34, 12 July 2014 (UTC))
Someone please add some French ladies, I would do it myself, but I already added them originally and they got removed. AND I AM STILL BITTER ABOUT IT FOR SOME CRAZY REASON. But really it is so ridiculous that there is not one French woman there. Please fix it. ( 194.199.7.36 ( talk) 13:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC))
An IP editor has repeatedly been inserted additional names on the ilst, ones without extant Wikipedia articles ("red links"). Please see the discussion above titled "Changing consensus on inclusion" to see that general agreement has been reached on not including such names. If the editor wants an exception for these cases, or to change consensus, they should do so in discussion here rather than repeatedly trying to add the same material (and delete Sister Wendy). -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 15:32, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Originally there was a master list of all the women art historians that needed WP articles (red links), and should be on this list. Does anyone know where I can find this list now? Jooojay ( talk) 03:29, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
The category page now has about double the number of entries than this page. It would be nice if someone could add the missing ones here. I might start myself, but I just thought I would let people know, in case they are interested. /info/en/?search=Category:Women_art_historians Vhfs ( talk) 07:30, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to bring to your attention that I have just created a page for a woman in the field of art history. Needless to say, this page Julia Friedman could use your assistance! Many of her own accomplishments are being discounted, and in one particular instance it is assumed that her merit rests upon an older male. I would appreciate any assistance you could offer. Wwwwhatupprrr ( talk) 18:23, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to bring to your attention that I have just created a page for a woman in the field of art history. The page is for Julia Friedman, a Russian born Los Angeles art historian. Needless to say, this page Julia Friedman could use your assistance! I hope you can read the wonderful review that inspired my efforts in The Times Literary Supplement published May 27. I would appreciate any contribution you could make or offer. Despite this mid-career woman's notable talent and scholarship, the past few hours since its launch have been very difficult. Wwwwhatupprrr ( talk) 18:31, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Might this be of interest to any editors/readers? The 113th issue of ‘’ Coagula Art Journal’’, May 2016, is the largest ever printed in the magazine’s 24 year history at 88 pages. This issue highlights Eric Minh Swenson's documentary photographs of Art Stars – 160 women artists, dealers, and writers in the art scene from New York to California – with an introduction by Mat Gleason. Cecily Brown, Catherine Opie, Alexis Smith (artist), Casey Jane Ellison, Edythe Broad, Hunter Drohojowska-Philip, Julia Friedman, Helen Molesworth, Michele Maccarone, and other notable "art stars" are featured. -- Wwwwhatupprrr ( talk) 02:43, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Hi! I noticed that the Jodie Evans and Helen Gardner article titles on WP have (art historian) after them (because they have common names), and I don't know how to make this list sort and properly link to the article still. Can anyone help? Thanks Jooojay ( talk) 17:47, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I have recently added 3 notable art historians to the list; they were all deleted for different reasons. This is why they are important for the field:
I have only started to look into missing female Austrian, German, and Swiss art historians on this list. I have started with these three because their scholarship has been recognized by the anglosaxon world although they are usually not represented on the English wikipedia or the Dictionary of Art Historians. -- 272syrius ( talk) 09:26, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.06310.pdf ( Vhfs ( talk) 09:57, 9 May 2019 (UTC) )
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I'm trying to understand the decision to make this page with what seems to be an arbitrary distinction, the gender of the historian... particularly when there is no comparative list of male art historians that I can find here, nor a list of historians in general. I can understand the use of gender differential in fields where a distinction is commonly made (male and female athletes rarely compete against one another, male actors get different roles than female actors) or where there is some study made of them (the existence of Womens Literature studies might justify lists of female authors), but I would assume that female art historians don't inherently study different materials or get articles in different journals or anything. I can see separating out art historians by their specialty (i.e., historians focused on the renaissance artists might make a list, say, or those focused on Greek art), but this one is eluding me. Admittedly, art historians are not a specialty of mine, but I'd appreciate it if someone could explain what I'm missing here. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 03:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
It is not widely appreciated how incredibly small and vulnerable the discipline of art history is, not even among art historians. In the US there are about 3500 registered art historians, who belong to the College Art Association, and 700 more grad students. We know there are more (the great unregistered), we just have no idea how many more because there are no statistics. Compare those numbers to the largest professional organization for the humanities in the US, the Modern Language Association, which has a membership of around 30,000. Humanities grads count for just 12% of recent grads, of which art history grads count for just .2% (If we doubled the numbers it would be .4%!).
The names on this list, the first 200 or so that were added, came from the online Dictionary of Art Historians. It is a wonderful resource ( http://www.dictionaryofarthistorians.org/index.htm). In fact I feel terribly guilty that I have not put in all the footnotes yet. I will get to it shortly I hope. The names on that list include all the great art historians in art history history, and you know how many people are on that list? *2475*. Of which, *only 200 are women*. Art historians are, as we say, a rare breed. Women art historians, even rarer! I wanted to start the list to acknowledge their work, their role in the protection and stewardship of le patrimoine mondial, and just to make them known to new younger art historians (and older indifferent ones, who don't really care but should!). I want to begin to build art history up, by starting with one of its most important subgroups.
Your point about specialty is well taken though. I actually think I am going to rebuild the list as a searchable spreadsheet just so I can address those issues specifically.
Oh and, there used to be a list of art historians on Wikipedia, I just don't know what happened to it. It was super pathetic, that is for sure.
Finally...I want to add the numbers back in, because I think it is important to keep count, but I am open to discussing why they should be left out if someone has a strong opinion on the matter.
( Vhfs ( talk) 10:58, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
It signifies nothing about the art historian, for sure, but it does underline what a rare breed we are. I think it is important. You can change it to a single count if you want. I don't know what that is. As long as we keep a tally of the numbers.
( Vhfs ( talk) 13:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
I would that there are only 2000 or so living art historians (notable and non-notable, though I tend to think they are all notable for being crazy enough to want to become art historians) who happen to be women, in the US, on the very outside, and that number includes grad students. This is connected to another project of mine which is about building a database, so the number is not being pulled completely out of thin air.
Regarding whether or not art historians should be listed at all...I think of it like sports teams...art history departments are kind of like sports teams. They have rosters, stars, their line-ups change season to season. There are the notable players, and the non-notable ones, but Wikipedia has pages for all of them. I don't see why it should be any different for the humanities, and especially art history.
( Vhfs ( talk) 13:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
I am not ignoring it. Yet. It is just that in my book, especially in America, all academics are notable. And this is a very very special category of academics. Moreover, I don't mean to sound silly here but arguably art historians are more important than football players. After all, they, you know, contribute to society and stuff.
( Vhfs ( talk) 14:33, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
I didn't do it! I want to make a spreadsheet, as I said. You need to talk to whomever did it.
Forza! ( Vhfs ( talk) 18:02, 19 May 2014 (UTC))
Those of us who work in art history, in both universities and art museums, are only too aware of the dominance of male voices, while the substantial scholarship of many women tends to be subsumed. Despite many great feminist art historians, women art historians are too often sidelined, even though the overwhelming majority of art history students are women. It makes sense to have somewhere, and Wikipedia seems to be the right place, where the contributions of women art historians can be publicly recorded. The long term value of this is to both disseminate knowledge of what women art historians do, and change the climate so that others can see that the interests of women art historians range over all kinds of art history — many countries, and many theoretical approaches. Old lilipili ( talk) 02:38, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to put the numbers back in there, now I have got it in spreadsheet form. Does anyone have any tips? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs ( talk • contribs) 03:06, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
I tried to fix this yesterday but no luck. Can someone help to get this sorted out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs ( talk • contribs) 09:34, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Also I think something is wonky about the statistics page for the list. If someone could check on that, that would be awesome. - Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs ( talk · contribs) at 09:41, 23 May 2014 (UTC) It's not clear which statistics page you're speaking of. this one? -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 14:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Isn't it a bit redundant to include a "Profession" column, since this list is a list of people solely in this profession? Also, I wasn't aware that being "African" was a profession. (See the entry on Anderson, Martha). G S Palmer ( talk) 13:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Ha ha haaa. The African thing was my mistake, and it is fixed now. Art historians have all kinds of jobs: they are curators, museum directors, professors, artists, art critics...sometimes all of the above, it is important to specify to acknowledge the diversity of the kinds of careers art historians have, and the multiplicity--the depth and breadth--of the field. It is not just one thing, it is all kinds of things. ( Vhfs ( talk) 19:12, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
Can you PLEASE undo the deletion of everybody who has no data?? I cannot add data unless I know who was here. I just started adding data and between when I began and when I saved (at the end of the letter B) 3/4 of the entries disappeared! In fact, all the data I had spent 45 minutes adding is now gone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.158.161 ( talk) 19:32, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
This is obviously a special page. I think we need to get it some special protections. It is ridiculous. Incredible. ( Vhfs ( talk) 19:45, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
Could someone reinstate the version that was vandalized? It was not even done consistently... And how come it is impossible to see who did it? ( Vhfs ( talk) 20:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
http://en.utrace.de/ip-address/128.32.158.161
(
Vhfs (
talk) 01:04, 24 May 2014 (UTC))
That is not true. The edit to which you linked was my trial one and I had thereafter added data to about half the entries on art historians whose names began with A and B. I want to say that it is ridiculous to remove anybody who, basically, is not already in the online Dictionary of Art Historians -- then we really ARE repeating information available from another source. Not every woman art historian has a link to an online article. Most American academic art historians have a profile on their department's website but not all European ones do, and even very important curators do not have a web presence like that. So are we not going to be permitted to put on the list people who are, say, the Curator of European Paintings at the London National Gallery, because there is no article or page about her on the web? This is absurd. If you will restore the original full list, I can provide institutional affiliations/ professional positions for at least half the names. By the way, I was not signed in for my last edits because I was trying to get the password to my old account so you would see that I have made edits to other articles before -- I just created this account to edit this article because I cannot remember my old password. Although I requested that previous password it was not sent to me. Eahonig ( talk) 14:13, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Seriously stop reverting data while people are actively creating new articles to complete this list. It's rude, and YES we can all see which user is doing it without having to out them. Jooojay ( talk) 03:41, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
User:Drmies I love the introduction. Thank you for writing it. I have one small point of contention...my idea of feminist scholarship is, I think, a little different than the standard line. I am not so much interested in producing an army of feminist art historians, but rather establishing the kinds of conditions that will ensure that young art historians, who happen to be women, can study whatever they goddamn well want to. To get there, we need a better sense of, and/or we need to take stock of where we are now. That is what motivated the creation of the list, because, while there are no hard statistics we all know that women do most of the teaching in the discipline, while dudes get the sweet research gigs. I think feminism is extremely relevant, above all in terms of labor conditions. I guess I am wondering how to include that angle in the introduction. What I am trying to say, is I don't care whether or not said student identifies as a feminist, really I don't. I am much more interested in ensuring her right to study whatever she wants...intellectual curiosity is the most fragile thing in the world, and it is *that thing*, particularly in relation to emerging scholars, who happen to be women, that I want to protect, and encourage. For me there is no "should" in scholarship, maybe even and especially for feminist scholarship and/or scholarship that just happens to be done by women (depending on what side of the bed they got up on that day...).
I also loved your inclusion of statistics. Shouldn't there be some kind of comment about how there is a real lack of statistics on these questions since the 70s, and perhaps even some speculation on what has lead to our current situation? Like an explanation of why there are no statistics now. ( Vhfs ( talk) 19:47, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
User:Drmies The other part of the history is when *exactly* did the women's caucus and CAA part ways? 1977? (I am no where near a library). Could you include that history as well? I am absolutely *fascinated* and want to know more.
Thank you again! Forza! ( Vhfs ( talk) 20:05, 23 May 2014 (UTC))
A while ago I wrote a few biographies of women printers in the 18th century, and found that the very existence of women in that business was notable. But, dear Vhfs, when I say "notable" I mean "relevant for Wikipedia", not necessarily relevant in a broader sense, although in the case of printers I am convinced that it's relevant in a broader sense as well, and that's where Wikipedia can be an aid to any study of women's history. On-wiki, I'm a Wikipedian first and a feminist second. So, "notable" here means "the topic is being discussed in-depth in reliable sources". For those printers, those articles exist. For women art historians, I have to dig a little deeper.
I would expect that the Chronicle (that is, The Chronicle of Higher Education) has some useful stuff for us, but I don't subscribe to it. A search on their website suggests as much but I can't read those articles. The article I found, the one with the CAA material, is indeed fascinating but, as I said in an edit summary, I believe, I haven't had that much time to look into it and plow through the whole article: I just picked a few salient factoids to, again, indicate the notability of womanness in the profession. I am sure, though, that there are more such articles, and we'll get to them, after the AfD closes as keep, which I hope will be the case. I've been around the block, and DGG, Randykitty, and I are all in academia, so one hopes that a. we know what we're talking about and b. others know that we know what we're talking about. We're also all three admins, which doesn't give us a bigger stick in such discussions, but it does suggest that we have some experience in how Wikipedia treats (and likes) such articles. Look, Randykitty is a hard-ass, and if he says "keep", that counts for something. The three of us have participated in hundreds if not thousands of such discussions. Besides, other editors have helped improve the article: let's not forget that a list always needs a lead to establish a rationale--but maybe that's just my opinion.
Now, if anyone is still reading this, there is another article waiting to be written, and it will come from the same sources I cited in the lead, and a million more: the topic of how women (models, characters, artists, benefactors, etc.) have been treated in art history. One or two of the books I cited have positively fascinating material on that topic, and the suggestion--I couldn't yet put it in, since it smacked too much of WP:SYNTH; remember, we're encyclopedic, not academic writers here--is that women were treated as secondary subjects by art historians, and that "therefore" (those are ironic air quotes) women art historians, also treated secondarily in the profession, dealt with those secondary women artists. That's the fault of sexist history, of course, and it's a valid topic, and it's written about: I saw in one of those books a statement about how women artists were often trained in their father's or husband's workshops, and for someone like Artemisia Gentileschi that's obviously true. But, Vhfs, that also is treated as subject matter relevant to the subject of "women in the business"--so it can be difficult, and I know this first-hand now, to separate things out. A real feminist might say that such categorical separations are masculine anyway, though Obiwankenobi will probably call that bullocks.
In sum. Per Wikipedia's guidelines, this list/article should never be a directory, and so redlinks are to be avoided at all cost: one is simply not notable just because one is a woman art historian (or woman Anglo-Saxonist, or male tenured professor, etc.). In other words, we should not reformat that dictionary and paste it in. Blue links only. Once that is done (and it is done), the only argument against the list is "well, eh, it simply doesn't matter that one is a woman, and to that I say, well, that's wrong--and I can only hope that the lead, which I know needs more work, will prove that. Randykitty, for instance, who is a certified deletionist and has a penis to boot (I think), knows that the presence of women in his profession is still somewhat of an anomaly (Randy, I'd love for you to tell me I'm wrong; it will somewhat restore my faith in humanity), but as a Wikipedian, and an admin, he'll want to see that proven by reference to reliable sources. So that's where the burden, and article development, is. Reliable sources about women in the profession. Drmies ( talk) 23:04, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
A consensus was emerging in the Articles For Deletion discussion that this list should be limited to notable women art historians (in some statements limited to "blue links", which means that they have existing biographical articles in Wikipedia.) I understand that some folks want to revisit this consensus.
Listing every woman who happens to be an art historian would run both into practical problems of article size (given that there would appear to be thousands of qualifying folk around the world, including those no longer with us) and would run into our guideline that Wikipedia is not a directory. So if people want to support some more expansive list beyond just folks who have their own page, we should come up and reach consensus on what qualifies for inclusion. I'd certainly argue that any woman art historian who can be sourced as meeting the criteria for notability among academics, or who are otherwise notable for reasons related to their art history work, should qualify, so long as that notability is sourced (which would also mean that we could have an encouraging red-link entry with a link to the basic data that would be needed for someone else to go and create an article on that historian.) In the AFD discussion, I mentioned inclusion in the Dictionary Of Art Historians as sufficient suggestion that such notability might be achieved, but at that time I had only seen full biographical entries in that dictionary; since then, I've seen some entries that only have one piece of data, so at the very least I would qualify that inclusion.
But that's how I see it, and I'd be interested in hearing other views how we should set the bar for inclusion. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 15:35, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
My experience (after many edits on List of people by Erdős number and List of cosmologists among others) is that, while in an ideal world listing all plausibly-notable people sounds like a good idea, in this world, such lists tend to become hard-to-maintain spam magnets. Every random amateur researcher or new graduate student in the subject thinks they and all their friends should be listed despite having done nothing of significance yet, and if you don't spend a lot of attention filtering those people out they end up making the list too long and filled with junk to be useful for the actual readers (remember them?) who might be trying to find a fit subject for a term paper or whatever. Restricting the list to bluelinks makes it much easier to maintain — you will still get people thinking it's a directory and adding their own names to it, but fewer of them, and it can be quickly reverted rather than requiring much time and energy distinguishing those ones from the ones that really should be listed. And it also provides some motivation for improving the encyclopedia by writing articles about the people who should be on the list but aren't yet. — David Eppstein ( talk) 04:14, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I am thinking more and more that it would be a good idea to change the title and the topic to something like "Women art historians", to better cover what I think needs to be covered: the history and importance of such women scholars. The list itself then becomes a sub-section of the article (oh wait, I already kind of did that). The more I read up on the topic, the more I find in JSTOR, the more I am convinced that this is a valid topic in its own right. For instance, I'm seeing all these things about women art historians in Victorian times, and notes about the education of contemporary women art historians--this is material we need to cover. The lead of a list article, well, that's not the best place. Drmies ( talk) 14:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
What the hell does that mean?
It is so weird to me that if we discuss women scholars, who happen to be art historians, we have to discuss women artists, feminism, and activism all of a sudden...for me this is simply not the case. These are all separate things. As I tried to explain...this list is about raising the profile and status of art historians who happen to women, globally. It was first and foremost an effort to put them on the map. The fact that they happen to be women should be, and is, in fact, completely irrelevant to, and separate from what they are or are not interested in studying, including, or, as the case may be, excluding feminism. If you are going to respect academic freedoms, you have to respect women scholars who are emphatically uninterested in feminism. It is their right. But they are left out of your essay, which now I really do not understand at all anyway.
The Women's Caucus is primarily interested in raising the status of women artists, not women art historians. I talked to them in February. Do you see the difference? I am interested first and foremost in women *art historians*. The status of women artists is not relevant here.
There are so many sloppily articulated ideas in that opening essay. Art education is something different from art history dontcha know...art departments are something different from art history departments etc...and so it goes. If we cannot get those basic ideas straight, the essay is not going to be useful to anyone anyway.
Not that I expect you to address any of these concerns.
( Vhfs ( talk) 17:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC))
Nat Gertler Show me the impact and I am with you. Sounds like a tricky thing to prove though.
On another subject completely, do you mean that my kind of feminism is "politics" whereas other types of feminism is, I dunno, "real" feminism or something? Sigh. ( Vhfs ( talk) 20:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC))
The obvious problem (that has already been touched on a few times), is that there is no corresponding List of men art historians or List of art historians. I can see a few possible ways to deal with this:
Any thoughts? G S Palmer ( talk) 17:23, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
I was exchanging views on another topic with SamX, and he suggested making a category. Isn't that what is in order here? In addition to the other lists? I guess several different kinds of categories possibly?
Forza! ( Vhfs ( talk) 19:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC))
This is not a list any more but a full article. I am moving it to Women art historians. -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 17:25, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I am only anonymous to Wikipedians. I am not an entirely unknown quantity in the world of art history. I am most definitely an academic (my other hobbies include telling jokes and calling people names on the Internet), and if anyone is curious about my work you can check out my publications on academia.edu here: ( https://independent.academia.edu/VictoriaHFScott). And/or you can follow me on Twitter @vhfscott Andreas. Using my initials is sheer caprice, and makes me anonymous only to those who do not know me, while preserving my authorship on Wikipedia articles that I think are important, for those who do. This page for instance (which I made with my students at Alfred University): /info/en/?search=List_of_university_art_museums_and_galleries_in_New_York_State If you scroll down to the bottom of my sandbox page you will see another article I wrote with my students was prematurely deleted on false grounds, and is currently being considered for reinstatement: /info/en/?search=User_talk:Vhfs/sandbox Boy that shouldn't have happened...
As for the goodly Joan Evans, I had no idea that she even existed! But she sounds fascinating! I am sure there are other amazing women art historians out there that I have yet to learn about...but that was the whole point of making the list! As for the "the horde of black-text nonentities" (!!!????) could we please bring them back here to this page so people can start to sift through them and write articles for...*every single* one of them!? Because they are not really a "horde of black-text nonentities" they are just great art historians, who happen to be women, that do not have the Wikipedia articles they truly deserve yet.
I am sorry about posting the IP address, I take online privacy very seriously. I just wrote on essay on the subject actually, in relation to academic freedom. I am new to Wikipedia, and really was very angry and had no idea there was a rule against that. I wanted to know, above all, who had vandalized the article. As it turned out, the IP address was the wrong one anyway. It is very unlikely that I will do it again.
Finally: I don't think I discredited feminist editing. I strongly and emphatically disagreed with some editing done by a person who describes themselves as a feminist. I also describe myself as a feminist, but as an art historian and scholar first. I think there is nothing extreme about my conduct actually, but I think the times we live in are extreme.
But I am so happy it is a keeper! Forza! ( Vhfs ( talk) 21:29, 27 May 2014 (UTC))
p.s. I still think the intro essay is totally bogus and that the list needs to be much longer and with numbers somehow. p.p.s. I think the new titles works.
User: Andreas Philopater Indeed, as you admit yourself, your ideas about academia are somewhat unrealistic, dated, and misinformed. The academic "privileges" you mention are purely a figment of your own imagination and do not exist for the 80% of us who work as adjuncts in the US. There is a crisis happening in higher education everywhere, in case you didn't know. And guess who is getting the shortest end of the stick? Humanities scholars are the lowest paid scholars at every university, and among humanities scholars guess who gets the lowest pay? Art historians. And, of course, male art historians get paid more, because they are male. Even fancy adjuncts like myself make less than high school teachers, and often work without healthcare, without offices, without regular library access, and without job stability. I have lived in 14 cities in as many years, if you can believe it. Certainly, I can hardly believe it myself, and wonder exactly when I will just completely lose it. It is true I do not own the article, thank god, but nevertheless since it was I who proposed it, and I who initially fought for it, in a way, I do. As for swearing at random strangers on the internet, well, I would say I am sorry, but I would just be pretending, because I really do not think very highly of you, and all of the assumptions you have made about who I am and what I stand for. Especially when, exactly by proposing and fighting for this article, with all my passion and commitment, I have made who I am and what I stand for **perfectly obvious**. That I did so in a way that was neither palatable or acceptable to the likes of you is, I am delighted to say, completely irrelevant.
( Vhfs ( talk) 07:29, 8 June 2014 (UTC))
I'm going to suggest the addition of Trina Robbins to this list. Robbins has done extensive work specifically on women in the comics field, done much to gain additional attention to them. I will not make the addition myself, because I have a substantial conflict of interest here. I publish some of Robbins creative work (not her art history material), hope to publish more, and publish some of her husband's work as well.
The two possible objections I see here:
I leave it to others to judge. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 02:28, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
They seem a bit wonky, and also, maybe not so accurate. Is there a way to fix that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs ( talk • contribs) 06:13, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be nice?
( Vhfs ( talk) 10:34, 12 July 2014 (UTC))
Someone please add some French ladies, I would do it myself, but I already added them originally and they got removed. AND I AM STILL BITTER ABOUT IT FOR SOME CRAZY REASON. But really it is so ridiculous that there is not one French woman there. Please fix it. ( 194.199.7.36 ( talk) 13:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC))
An IP editor has repeatedly been inserted additional names on the ilst, ones without extant Wikipedia articles ("red links"). Please see the discussion above titled "Changing consensus on inclusion" to see that general agreement has been reached on not including such names. If the editor wants an exception for these cases, or to change consensus, they should do so in discussion here rather than repeatedly trying to add the same material (and delete Sister Wendy). -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 15:32, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Originally there was a master list of all the women art historians that needed WP articles (red links), and should be on this list. Does anyone know where I can find this list now? Jooojay ( talk) 03:29, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
The category page now has about double the number of entries than this page. It would be nice if someone could add the missing ones here. I might start myself, but I just thought I would let people know, in case they are interested. /info/en/?search=Category:Women_art_historians Vhfs ( talk) 07:30, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to bring to your attention that I have just created a page for a woman in the field of art history. Needless to say, this page Julia Friedman could use your assistance! Many of her own accomplishments are being discounted, and in one particular instance it is assumed that her merit rests upon an older male. I would appreciate any assistance you could offer. Wwwwhatupprrr ( talk) 18:23, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to bring to your attention that I have just created a page for a woman in the field of art history. The page is for Julia Friedman, a Russian born Los Angeles art historian. Needless to say, this page Julia Friedman could use your assistance! I hope you can read the wonderful review that inspired my efforts in The Times Literary Supplement published May 27. I would appreciate any contribution you could make or offer. Despite this mid-career woman's notable talent and scholarship, the past few hours since its launch have been very difficult. Wwwwhatupprrr ( talk) 18:31, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Might this be of interest to any editors/readers? The 113th issue of ‘’ Coagula Art Journal’’, May 2016, is the largest ever printed in the magazine’s 24 year history at 88 pages. This issue highlights Eric Minh Swenson's documentary photographs of Art Stars – 160 women artists, dealers, and writers in the art scene from New York to California – with an introduction by Mat Gleason. Cecily Brown, Catherine Opie, Alexis Smith (artist), Casey Jane Ellison, Edythe Broad, Hunter Drohojowska-Philip, Julia Friedman, Helen Molesworth, Michele Maccarone, and other notable "art stars" are featured. -- Wwwwhatupprrr ( talk) 02:43, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Hi! I noticed that the Jodie Evans and Helen Gardner article titles on WP have (art historian) after them (because they have common names), and I don't know how to make this list sort and properly link to the article still. Can anyone help? Thanks Jooojay ( talk) 17:47, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I have recently added 3 notable art historians to the list; they were all deleted for different reasons. This is why they are important for the field:
I have only started to look into missing female Austrian, German, and Swiss art historians on this list. I have started with these three because their scholarship has been recognized by the anglosaxon world although they are usually not represented on the English wikipedia or the Dictionary of Art Historians. -- 272syrius ( talk) 09:26, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.06310.pdf ( Vhfs ( talk) 09:57, 9 May 2019 (UTC) )